Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 05:17 PM
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Hi Guys,

I'm looking at rythmik, but pretty newbie to subwoofer setup.

I have an AVR with audyssey (multEQ) - would you still recommend getting BFd/REW, etc for setting up the subwoofer separately? Or is audyssey enough?

Thanks,
Sean
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post #722 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 05:29 PM
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I am looking at the Rythmik F12SE to possibly replace my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus. Would the F12SE be a big upgrade over the LFM-1 Plus? I have a fairly small room (14'D x 17'W x 8' ceilings) with Ascend Sierra-1 speakers. My listening is about 50-50 so I am looking for maybe a better sub for music.

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post #723 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 05:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I am looking at the Rythmik F12SE to possibly replace my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus. Would the F12SE be a big upgrade over the LFM-1 Plus? I have a fairly small room (14'D x 17'W x 8' ceilings) with Ascend Sierra-1 speakers. My listening is about 50-50 so I am looking for maybe a better sub for music.

Bill

Regardless of the size of your room, you would best be served by doing their 15" models. 2-4db more output, same sound quality. Its a no brainer.
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post #724 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 05:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by surlung View Post

Hi Guys,

I'm looking at rythmik, but pretty newbie to subwoofer setup.

I have an AVR with audyssey (multEQ) - would you still recommend getting BFd/REW, etc for setting up the subwoofer separately? Or is audyssey enough?

Thanks,
Sean

Audessy is worthless, grab REW.
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post #725 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 06:18 PM
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ntrain6943...I just bought a Rythmik about 30 minutes ago!!! Dave was great in terms of patiently answering my questions. Anyway, I'd like to know why you feel Audyssey isn't worth it. Just curious.
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post #726 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I am looking at the Rythmik F12SE to possibly replace my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus. Would the F12SE be a big upgrade over the LFM-1 Plus? I have a fairly small room (14'D x 17'W x 8' ceilings) with Ascend Sierra-1 speakers. My listening is about 50-50 so I am looking for maybe a better sub for music.

Bill

Bill.....sound quality wise, any Rythmik is an upgrade over the Outlaw.

I've directly compared my F15 to a Hsu VTF-3.3 and VTF-3.2....no brainer. The Outlaw is a direct descendant of those models.

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post #727 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Bill.....sound quality wise, any Rythmik is an upgrade over the Outlaw.

I've directly compared my F15 to a Hsu VTF-3.3 and VTF-3.2....no brainer. The Outlaw is a direct descendant of those models.

Curtis,

Thanks for your thoughts. Not sure if I will pull the trigger but I am very tempted.

Bill

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post #728 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 06:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by abba1 View Post

ntrain6943...I just bought a Rythmik about 30 minutes ago!!! Dave was great in terms of patiently answering my questions. Anyway, I'd like to know why you feel Audyssey isn't worth it. Just curious.

Dave? You mean Brian Ding? Who the hell is Dave? LOL! Rythmik is a one man operation, hehe.

AUdessy is not very accurate. The provide a real cheap microphone that really is not accurate at all, Ive seen deviations over over 9db using audessy with multiple test passes, which to me makes it pretty much worthless past a general "ballpark" setup. If you really want to dial your setup well then the best bet is to grab REW and get yourself a quality calibration mic/sound card.
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post #729 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 07:14 PM
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I bought the Rythmik from Ascend Acoustics (don't like using PayPal)
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post #730 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surlung View Post

Hi Guys,

I'm looking at rythmik, but pretty newbie to subwoofer setup.

I have an AVR with audyssey (multEQ) - would you still recommend getting BFd/REW, etc for setting up the subwoofer separately? Or is audyssey enough?

Thanks,
Sean

If you'd like another opinion, I think Audyssey will do just fine if you are interested in getting the best compromise for all seated positions. In fact, I have had excellent results using Audyssey over the years, as well as so many, many others have, just take a read through that huge Audyssey thread. It is important that you take care heed to all those 'tips' on procedures when calibrating via Audyssey. The BFD might be a good choice if your only focus is to best set-up your system for a single listening position without regard to what that might do to any of the other listening positions in the room... if that's not the case then forego the BFD route. Though you will not need a BFD or any other calibration EQing piece of equipment outside of Audyssey, you will still be wise to get REW up and running as an evaluation tool, so you can judge for yourself what it is Audyssey is or is not doing to your set-up... but more importantly it will help you immensely by giving you visual confirmation of optimal speaker positioning (I'm talking all of your speakers) as well as evaluation of your room's acoustic character, especially if you intend to add treatments at some point to help smooth the room out and tighten it up. Remember, Audyssey can only do so much in a given room and with your chosen speaker placements... so if you can optimize these things, Audyssey will be able to do even better. To sum it up, my opinion is this: get REW and learn how to use it, use it to help you optimize your speaker placements (all your speakers, not just the sub) and consider room treatments for first reflection points (absorbers or diffusers) and corners (bass traps) where reasonably possible, and carefully read/review ALL the Audyssey calibration tips in that thread, be sure to lower the noise floor as far as possible before you start and then use Audyssey for calibration. Audyssey is an awesome calibration tool when properly employed.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #731 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 08:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by abba1 View Post

I bought the Rythmik from Ascend Acoustics (don't like using PayPal)

Um, you can use a regular CC direct through Brian........
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post #732 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 08:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by monomer View Post

If you'd like another opinion, I think Audyssey will do just fine if you are interested in getting the best compromise for all seated positions. In fact, I have had excellent results using Audyssey over the years, as well as so many, many others have, just take a read through that huge Audyssey thread. It is important that you take care heed to all those 'tips' on procedures when calibrating via Audyssey. The BFD might be a good choice if your only focus is to best set-up your system for a single listening position without regard to what that might do to any of the other listening positions in the room... if that's not the case then forego the BFD route. Though you will not need a BFD or any other calibration EQing piece of equipment outside of Audyssey, you will still be wise to get REW up and running as an evaluation tool, so you can judge for yourself what it is Audyssey is or is not doing to your set-up... but more importantly it will help you immensely by giving you visual confirmation of optimal speaker positioning (I'm talking all of your speakers) as well as evaluation of your room's acoustic character especially if you intend to add treatments at some point to help smooth the room out and tighten it up. Remember, Audyssey can only do so much in a given room and with your chosen speaker placements... so if you can optimize these things, Audyssey will be able to do even better. To sum it up, my opinion is this: get REW and learn how to use it, use it to help you optimize your speaker placements (all your speakers, not just the sub) and consider room treatments for first reflection points (absorbers or diffusers) and corners (bass traps) where reasonably possible, and carefully read/review ALL the Audyssey calibration tips in that thread, be sure to lower the noise floor as far as possible before you start and then use Audyssey for calibration. Audyssey is an awesome calibration tool when properly employed.

I have to add, that Audessy has shown to be a full 9db off at certain frequencies when checked with a professional RTA. Audessy is pretty limited in reality. It is what it is. You can only expect so much out of a tuning aid that uses a 50 cent calibration mic...........
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post #733 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by abba1 View Post

I bought the Rythmik from Ascend Acoustics (don't like using PayPal)

Congratulations are in order... get it set-up properly and then be prepared to be stunned by the performance... then post back with your impressions. BTW, which one did you end up getting?

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #734 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

I have to add, that Audessy has shown to be a full 9db off at certain frequencies when checked with a professional RTA. Audessy is pretty limited in reality. It is what it is. You can only expect so much out of a tuning aid that uses a 50 cent calibration mic...........

I've had no issues with the results its produced in my theater and listening room and many others have not had any issues either. The key is using proper set-up procedures and paying careful attention to the details. Since this is a Rythmik thread and not about Audyssey's capabilities or accuracy, I shall not pursue this distraction as it will simply detract from the topic and intended purpose of this Rythmik thread. Please take it up over on that Audyssey thread where you just may have to cough up some proof of your casual assertions.

(Your MO is known here and elsewhere, however you'll find that, much unlike yourself, I don't have to get in the last word and can actually simply walk away from the bait.)

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #735 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Pelly_NV View Post

Curious what settings people use for the extension filter on the back of their Rythmiks. Do you stick with the suggested 20Hz/Medium or opt for the 14Hz/High?

On my F12, I typically use 14Hz/High for music and most viewing and opt for 20Hz/Medium for Blu-rays.

Not a bad choice as many movie sound effects can sound more powerfully awesome with less damping and without penalty in many listening rooms. Unfortunately for me though, due to the specifics of my theater, it is not so easy for me to change tuning without it becoming a major effort, so I don't have the luxury of switching to more 'fun' tuning for certain movies... so in the end I just keep the music tuning (14Hz/high) for everything.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #736 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 09:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by monomer View Post

I've had no issues with the results its produced in my theater and listening room and many others have not had any issues either. The key is using proper set-up procedures and paying careful attention to the details. Since this is a Rythmik thread and not about Audyssey's capabilities or accuracy, I shall not pursue this distraction as it will simply detract from the topic and intended purpose of this Rythmik thread. Please take it up over on that Audyssey thread where you just may have to cough up some proof of your casual assertions.

(Your MO is known here and elsewhere, however you'll find that, much unlike yourself, I don't have to get in the last word and can actually simply walk away from the bait.)

Regardless of using Audessy, MCAC, or whatever built in self tuning software, there are limitations, and alot of those limitations are based on the cheap mic. they give you with your AVR or processor. Heck, its been proven on quite a few threads here that changing out one mic for another(same exact mic, different batch) using the same "proper set-up procedures, while paying careful attention to details" will yield differing results. Im sorry but an ACM calibration mic coupled with an AC RTA is going to be just a bit more accurate and yield much more consistent results than a cheap plastic mic. packaged in with your typical $5-600 buck AVR.....
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post #737 of 16569 Old 05-10-2010, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

Regardless of using Audessy, MCAC, or whatever built in self tuning software, there are limitations, and alot of those limitations are based on the cheap mic. they give you with your AVR or processor. Heck, its been proven on quite a few threads here that changing out one mic for another(same exact mic, different batch) using the same "proper set-up procedures, while paying careful attention to details" will yield differing results. Im sorry but an ACM calibration mic coupled with an AC RTA is going to be just a bit more accurate and yield much more consistent results than a cheap plastic mic. packaged in with your typical $5-600 buck AVR.....


you seriously NEVER give up at anything do you???
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post #738 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by monomer View Post

If you'd like another opinion, I think Audyssey will do just fine if you are interested in getting the best compromise for all seated positions. In fact, I have had excellent results using Audyssey over the years, as well as so many, many others have, just take a read through that huge Audyssey thread. It is important that you take care heed to all those 'tips' on procedures when calibrating via Audyssey. The BFD might be a good choice if your only focus is to best set-up your system for a single listening position without regard to what that might do to any of the other listening positions in the room... if that's not the case then forego the BFD route. Though you will not need a BFD or any other calibration EQing piece of equipment outside of Audyssey, you will still be wise to get REW up and running as an evaluation tool, so you can judge for yourself what it is Audyssey is or is not doing to your set-up... but more importantly it will help you immensely by giving you visual confirmation of optimal speaker positioning (I'm talking all of your speakers) as well as evaluation of your room's acoustic character, especially if you intend to add treatments at some point to help smooth the room out and tighten it up. Remember, Audyssey can only do so much in a given room and with your chosen speaker placements... so if you can optimize these things, Audyssey will be able to do even better. To sum it up, my opinion is this: get REW and learn how to use it, use it to help you optimize your speaker placements (all your speakers, not just the sub) and consider room treatments for first reflection points (absorbers or diffusers) and corners (bass traps) where reasonably possible, and carefully read/review ALL the Audyssey calibration tips in that thread, be sure to lower the noise floor as far as possible before you start and then use Audyssey for calibration. Audyssey is an awesome calibration tool when properly employed.

monomer, thank you very much for your informative post.

I would prefer not to get another eq solution since I'm already over my budget by quite a bit, but did not want to miss out on the possible sound quality lost over not using one.

I will research on using REW, and using it as a tool to help best tune my setup.

Another quick question - what does one band defeatable parametric EQ do with a presence of audyssey? I tried googling but I can't really see what it's benefit would be, or how to test for when to use them properly.
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post #739 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 01:44 AM
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Originally Posted by surlung View Post

...Another quick question - what does one band defeatable parametric EQ do with a presence of audyssey? I tried googling but I can't really see what it's benefit would be, or how to test for when to use them properly.

Using Audyssey, PEQ's not really a necessity but you could use it to deal with any obvious large peak (usually a room mode down low due to room dimensions and so not really amenable to bass trapping). However you must employ its use first BEFORE calibrating with Audyssey. Other than that, it requires no special procedural handling and will not confuse your Audyssey calibration.

Essentially REW is free (if you have the computer with an agreeable sound card) but you will need to purchase an SPL meter or a microphone. So REW is relatively cheap to get into however it does require a learning curve that can be frustrating to some. If you read through the whole tutorial first and then follow it carefully step-by-step it won't be too difficult and once you get through it a couple of times, the lightbulb will come on and things will begin to make more sense to you. Remember you also have a forum full of people to help you through it, so if you run into a problem, ask. It is a powerful visual tool to assess what is going on sonically in your room... in the process it will teach you alot about your space and system components. Good Luck and if at any point you get frustrated try to keep in mind this is all suppose to be fun, don't sweat it remember its just a hobby.


EDIT: BTW, does your receiver also have Dymanic EQ?... if so then there is something else I should probably bring to your attention, otherwise not.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #740 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I am looking for maybe a better sub for music.

In that case, consider a pair of the F12G subs, even if it means going with the 300 watt amp. The GR Research drivers are a bit lighter, resulting in slightly better dynamics. Plus, with the A370 amp, the SE cabinet you're looking at is a little undersized for the Rythmik driver and a little oversized for the GR driver. I'd rather have the latter, all things being equal.

My room is 14.2'W x 16.7'D, literally a few inches away from your room dimensions. Using a pair of subs will cancel some room modes, which will help smoothen out the frequency response and minimize seat-to-seat variation. This will allow whatever room correction you're using (Audyssey, MCAAC, etc) to concentrate more of its filters above the subwoofer range, improving the midbass response from your speakers. Win-win.

Anyway, that's what I ended up doing. My system is used roughly 90% music, about 10% movies. The only reason I bought a pair of Rythmik/GR subs is because of their musicality. I first heard the Rythmik at Curtis' place, and that sealed the deal. Brian was extremely helpful the multiple times I called him.

Sanjay
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post #741 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 07:03 AM
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Monomer: thank you for all of your useful input. Once I've spent some time with the Rythmik I will post some impressions. I wound up getting the 370PEQ after a long discussion with Dave / Ascend Acoustics. The slightly more powerful amp along with the ''tweakability'' factor is what sold me. That plus the fact that since I'm 63 & retired and since this will probably be the last subwoofer I'll purchase, I don't want to look back and say, ''What if?'' I mean, at this stage of the game, what's another $100??? By the way, you mentioned in another post about Dynamic EQ. I've got that (Onkyo 707) Is there something I need to know? Thank you in advance.

ntrain6943: I didn't see ''CC'' on Brain's / Rythmik website in terms of ''how to purchase.'' Perhaps I missed it. In any case, thank you for your information / opinions as well!
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post #742 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by rick240 View Post

Settle down guys. It's a forum for expressing opinions, reading opinions and then choosing which ones to give weight to by yourself.

nTrain knows more about subs then many of us (myself definitely included) and I enjoy having his input as one of the set of opinions I consider. I see a need for taking offense when he defends his expressed opinions when they get challenged by someone else - seems like a reasonable time for a rebuttal.





Having participated on this thread since the beginning I have seen Brian post more than once that the F15 and F12 are equally capable for music the two big deciding factors being the size of the drivers in your mains as well as the size of sub you can deal with in your space.

Based on those comments from the subs' designer, the F12 was right for me.

Also based on those comments, nTrain's opinion is quite reasonable. Perhaps a bit curt and should be qualified with "assuming you have space and capable enough mains".



Many of the high profile members on this site have expressed they find Audyssey inadequate and prefer manual settings.

Again, agree or disagree, take comments for what they are worth.



Assuming one is familiar with Dave at Ascend. I wasn't so I assumed one of two things, either abba1 got the name wrong or else the name of the guy at Ascend must be Dave.



And now we're picking on spelling

Let's try reading and accepting everyone's opinions as we explore our hobby; some are harder in their opinions than others, oh well.

Please don't quote this, I plan to delete it in a few minutes as I don't think this , or picking on someone, belongs in a thread discussing these great subs


You obviously don't know Ntrains posting style then...
No one ever said he doesn't have knowledge because he certainly does...its how he represents himself that gets to people along with the "no one else's opinion matters but mine" or the "im right you're wrong" constant mentality.
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post #743 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

In that case, consider a pair of the F12G subs, even if it means going with the 300 watt amp. The GR Research drivers are a bit lighter, resulting in slightly better dynamics. Plus, with the A370 amp, the SE cabinet you're looking at is a little undersized for the Rythmik driver and a little oversized for the GR driver. I'd rather have the latter, all things being equal.

My room is 14.2'W x 16.7'D, literally a few inches away from your room dimensions. Using a pair of subs will cancel some room modes, which will help smoothen out the frequency response and minimize seat-to-seat variation. This will allow whatever room correction you're using (Audyssey, MCAAC, etc) to concentrate more of its filters above the subwoofer range, improving the midbass response from your speakers. Win-win.

Anyway, that's what I ended up doing. My system is used roughly 90% music, about 10% movies. The only reason I bought a pair of Rythmik/GR subs is because of their musicality. I first heard the Rythmik at Curtis' place, and that sealed the deal. Brian was extremely helpful the multiple times I called him.

Sanjay,

Thanks for your thoughts. My room is our livingroom so two subs might not work but I will look at the F12G.

Bill

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post #744 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Sanjay,

Thanks for your thoughts. My room is our livingroom so two subs might not work but I will look at the F12G.

Bill

Yeah, livingrooms do add significant WAF issues

I'm looking to get a sub for my livingroom 2.1 and size is a significant issue...

...but Brian is promising a smaller form factor F10 in the not too distant future

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post #745 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 09:03 AM
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Bill,

My room is a living room too (living room first and foremost), so I understand your situation. The dual-sub configuration I was describing can straddle the listening area either in front & back OR to the left & right. So if your couch is at/near the back wall, then placing a pair of subs symmetrically along the side walls will do the trick. If you're not in a rush, you may want to wait for the smaller subs that rick240 mentioned; may help with WAF issues. Anyway, something to keep in mind for the future if you want consistency across multiple listening seats.

Sanjay
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post #746 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 09:15 AM
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EDIT: BTW, does your receiver also have Dymanic EQ?... if so then there is something else I should probably bring to your attention, otherwise not.

Hi monomer, mine does have dynEQ - what else should I be aware?

I unfortunately have it turned off for now, as I only have front 3 speakers, and after audyssey calibration with dynEQ on, my noise floor is raised about 20 db.. it's at a point it's so loud that I can't have it on and watch a movie.
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post #747 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Curtis,

Thanks for your thoughts. Not sure if I will pull the trigger but I am very tempted.

Bill

Bill,

As always -- please let me know if I can be of any help. I know it can be confusing. Next to Brian himself, nobody else knows these subs as well as I do...

David Fabrikant

audio professional and soft spoken representative of www.AscendAcoustics.com

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post #748 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 01:28 PM
 
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you seriously NEVER give up at anything do you???

GIve up when my own experience shows otherwise?

I have 1 processor and 2 AVR's with Audessy. All have the same plastic tower mic. included. Using a mic stand situated in the same room position(untouched), I can swap in/out the 3 different Audessy mics and get 3 significantly different results of up to a whopping 9db difference at differing frequencies. SO which result is right and which is inaccurate?

Now I have 2 ACM calibrations mics as well(1 spare on hand), and when I swap them out running full bandwidth pink noise, they always register identical to each other(less than half db difference), every time the speaker's response.

Expecting a cheap mic and built in autotuning software to give true accurate results to a professional calibration microphone, RTA and test disc through your source I don't think is a fair proposition at all. You can't expect to get results nearly as good or consistent.
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post #749 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

GIve up when my own experience shows otherwise?

I have 1 processor and 2 AVR's with Audessy. All have the same plastic tower mic. included. Using a mic stand situated in the same room position(untouched), I can swap in/out the 3 different Audessy mics and get 3 significantly different results of up to a whopping 9db difference at differing frequencies. SO which result is right and which is inaccurate?

Now I have 2 ACM calibrations mics as well(1 spare on hand), and when I swap them out running full bandwidth pink noise, they always register identical to each other(less than half db difference), every time the speaker's response.

Expecting a cheap mic and built in autotuning software to give true accurate results to a professional calibration microphone, RTA and test disc through your source I don't think is a fair proposition at all. You can't expect to get results nearly as good or consistent.

Is it possible to use a better quality mic hooked up to most AVRs? Would this then provide the simplicity of Audyssey but with greater fidelity?

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post #750 of 16569 Old 05-11-2010, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by rick240 View Post

Is it possible to use a better quality mic hooked up to most AVRs? Would this then provide the simplicity of Audyssey but with greater fidelity?

Rick,

I'm not sure if a non Audyssey mic would work well for doing a calibration with an Audyssey based unit. I asked Chris from Audyssey if you could use the newer tower style mic with units that came with the older hockey puck style mics. He said it was not advisable to mix and match mics of different types (Audyssey mics).

The tower style mic is supposed to give a more accurate calibration. Of course some might say that even the newer mic is not very accurate but it works for me. So I would guess that a non Audyssey mic might not give a very accurate calibration if it is not intended for Audyssey use.

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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