Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 472 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 02-26-2014, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

Brian can explain this much better than me but he mentioned to me about 2 years ago that wireless transmitters make servo useless. One of the reasons is that they add delay (latency) and the Rocketfish adds about 20 ms delay to the equation. So first thing you need to do is take out the Rocketfish out of the chain and re run Audyssey with a subwoofer cable.

Hooked up my 25ft cable and I'm running through Audyssey as I type this.

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Old 02-26-2014, 03:14 PM
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So I just ran through the pod emergence scene on war of the worlds and heard it still. I took the grill off and ran through it again no more chuffling. Maybe the cone during maximum excursion was hitting the grill or the force of the air coming out of the port hitting the grill was the cause. Who knows, but it sounds good now. wink.gif

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Old 02-26-2014, 03:45 PM
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Glad it works after all. The grill part doesn't make sense though. What is the sub trim level now?
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

Brian can explain this much better than me but he mentioned to me about 2 years ago that wireless transmitters make servo useless. One of the reasons is that they add delay (latency) and the Rocketfish adds about 20 ms delay to the equation. So first thing you need to do is take out the Rocketfish out of the chain and re run Audyssey with a subwoofer cable.


Doesn't his site sell a wireless setup? I might be wrong as I didn't go back to double check.
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:09 PM
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Glad it works after all. The grill part doesn't make sense though. What is the sub trim level now?

Audyssey set the sub to -12, so I bumped up the trim after calibration to -3.

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Old 02-26-2014, 04:15 PM
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^^ did you not read my respond to you earlier? You need to bring it out from -12db to about -8db by decreasing your Rythmik volume by a click or two and rerun Audyssey.
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:17 PM
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^^ did you not read my respond to you earlier? You need to bring it out from -12db to about -8db by increasing your Rythmik volume by a click or two and rerun Audyssey.

He needs to lower the gain on his sub. The sub is too loud which is causing Audyssey to bottom out at -12db.
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:21 PM
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^^you are correct. I meant lower the sub volume and rerun Audyssey. I fixed my post
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:23 PM
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How could it be the receiver? Is Audyssey MultEQ XT not doing a sufficient job at calibrating the sub? I don't think the receiver is defective in any way as it is less than a year old.

Some receiver has the DTS-HD or any HD LFE decoded with 10db too hot. You will notice the bass is jus too heavy. This is difficult to debug because the problem is in the codec. Braveheart has a similar problem that he found his FV15HP just overload too quickly. We thought it is an amp problem. But it is not. I myself also have to deal with that problem.
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:27 PM
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^^ Brian is right with Onkyo and CA receiver Braveheart had. JT has Denon, so he should be good as long as his sub trim is NOT -12db
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

Brian can explain this much better than me but he mentioned to me about 2 years ago that wireless transmitters make servo useless. One of the reasons is that they add delay (latency) and the Rocketfish adds about 20 ms delay to the equation. So first thing you need to do is take out the Rocketfish out of the chain and re run Audyssey with a subwoofer cable.

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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Some receiver has the DTS-HD or any HD LFE decoded with 10db too hot. You will notice the bass is jus too heavy. This is difficult to debug because the problem is in the codec. Braveheart has a similar problem that he found his FV15HP just overload too quickly. We thought it is an amp problem. But it is not. I myself also have to deal with that problem.

Brian / Enrico, How about a device like the minidsp 2x4. It adds about 1-2ms delay. Would that interfere with the servo mechanism as well?

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Old 02-26-2014, 04:37 PM
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Just backed the gain down a bit on the sub and re-ran Audyssey. It came back with -7.5 on the sub channel

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Old 02-26-2014, 04:42 PM
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So I just ran through the pod emergence scene on war of the worlds and heard it still. I took the grill off and ran through it again no more chuffling. Maybe the cone during maximum excursion was hitting the grill or the force of the air coming out of the port hitting the grill was the cause. Who knows, but it sounds good now. wink.gif

I do not recommend wireless unless it is a very high quality one. You need to look closer at two specs of wireless solution: 1) resolution of digitization and 2) latency. The first spec deals with the resolution of signal digitization when the analog signal is converted into digital codes before they can be transmitted. 16-bits is equivalent to CD standard. But the problem is when the input signal exceed a assumed signal range, it can create all sorts of overload noise that sound exactly just like clipping. But there should be an indicator on the transmitter about this. But most don't. If it uses 24db, then it has quite a few bits more. So the system can set the full scale voltage to some insane value that we will never exceed. The second spec is the latency. That is the delay time between the analog signal entering the transmitter and the same (hopefully is the same, but you can bet there is additional noise and distortion) appearing at the output of the wireless receiver. If the latency is 20ms, it is equivalent of having the subwoofer placed 20ft further away from their physical location. You may need to use subwoofer distance in AVR to compensate for it (by entering the subwoofer distance 20ft further away). If not, then you will see a lot more uneven room response because the full wavelength of 80hz is only 12ft. 20ft is like having a 720 degrees shift and it passes phase inversion at least twice (180 degrees and 540 degrees). Not a good situation either as each inversion can lead to a null.

[EDIT] JT, you have mentioned that you experienced uneven in-room response. Wireless latency issue may explain that. Let me know if the response is now smoother without the wireless.

-
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:44 PM
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Brian / Enrico, How about a device like the minidsp 2x4. It adds about 1-2ms delay. Would that interfere with the servo mechanism as well?

The latency problem is not unique to our subs, it applies to all subs. 1-2ms delay is like 1-2 ft distance. It is very easy to compensate.
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:52 PM
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Just backed the gain down a bit on the sub and re-ran Audyssey. It came back with -7.5 on the sub channel
Does that help from making port noise?
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:14 PM
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Yes and taking the grill off helped a little too.

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Old 02-26-2014, 05:54 PM
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Does that help from making port noise?

So is it okay to boost the sub level in avr to +3 now if I want?

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Old 02-26-2014, 06:25 PM
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So is it okay to boost the sub level in avr to +3 now if I want?

No.

If you boost the AVR's sub level TO +3, that means you have added 10.5 dBs. Don't do this.

If you boost the AVR's sub level an ADDITIONAL 3 dB so that you end up at -4.5 dB, this is OK.

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Old 02-26-2014, 07:00 PM
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Now I'm really confused. Don't a lot of you guys run your subs hot? Volume on the sub is at maybe 11 now, so if I boost sub channel in avr to -4.5 this is considered running hot?

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Old 02-26-2014, 07:09 PM
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So whatever audyssey sets the sub channel to by boosting that number by 3db is considered running your sub 3db hot?

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Old 02-26-2014, 07:10 PM
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Now I'm really confused. Don't a lot of you guys run your subs hot? Volume on the sub is at maybe 11 now, so if I boost sub channel in avr to -4.5 this is considered running hot?

"Running a sub hot" simply means raising the level higher than your calibration set it to. You don't have to be on the plus side to be considered hot. As a rule of thumb, most will run their subs at 3db "hot" which simply means 3 db higher than the calibration setting.

As laulau mentioned, for your situation, it means changing the sub level from -7.5 to -4.5.
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Old 02-26-2014, 07:43 PM
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So whatever audyssey sets the sub channel to by boosting that number by 3db is considered running your sub 3db hot?
Correct. I used to run my subs 6db hot but found it a bit much so I now run them 3dbs hot. 10db hot is aggressive and if you feel the need to do that, you might be sitting in the null area. Only way to find out is to measure your room frequency response. If you can move your sub, try the sub crawl method to find better bass at your MLP.
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Old 02-26-2014, 08:09 PM
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"Running a sub hot" simply means raising the level higher than your calibration set it to. You don't have to be on the plus side to be considered hot. As a rule of thumb, most will run their subs at 3db "hot" which simply means 3 db higher than the calibration setting.

As laulau mentioned, for your situation, it means changing the sub level from -7.5 to -4.5.

I do run my subwoofers at 80dB. I have found Audyssey XT32 very conservative with subwoofer levels.

BTW, like your Avatar. I'm half Italian and my dad was born in Maranello, Modena. I used to go every year to the Ferrari Factory which is 4 miles away from my grandma's house in Italy biggrin.gif



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Old 02-26-2014, 08:13 PM
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I do run my subwoofers at 80dB. I have found Audyssey XT32 very conservative with subwoofer levels.

BTW, like your Avatar. I'm half Italian and my dad was born in Maranello, Modena. I used to go every year to the Ferrari Factory which is 4 miles away from my grandma's house in Italy biggrin.gif
Im half Italian too and still have relatives living there. My brother lives in Milan.

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Old 02-26-2014, 09:50 PM
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So is it okay to boost the sub level in avr to +3 now if I want?

John, this really depends on how much head room you are looking or need to fill.

Each room calibrations are going to be different per your preferred settings along with everyone else.
Can you install and run REW and share what kind freq response are at and we can always go from there if you post your results.

I for one do not run *hot* and anything I set to 0 or below ( example: - ) is not hot (IMHO) , but also not knowing your volume gain is on your sub amp is going to change things up and that can be hot, LOL!! A good starting point is maybe setting the sub amp to 10 o'clock turning point is a good starting point, set the volume on your receiver to reference level / volume then go to your likes on the amp and turn it up. I normally like to play like a2 5- 30 hz note and tune from there if no go on REW.

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Old 02-26-2014, 11:33 PM
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Yes and taking the grill off helped a little too.

Was this in single port mode?
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:28 AM
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I need some help with my 15HP sub. I know it is a capable sub so the "poor" performance is somewhat frustrating.

1) Sub is placed in the corner, about 12" from wall (behind it), 7" from wall on the side. I have positioned the sub pointing straight forward, pointing at a 45 degree angle and pointing to the right.
2) Room is large - 25' x 22' x 8' = ~4500 c feet
3) Level matched to 75dB using a Radio Shack meter
4) Room is a living room, so with rugs, curtains, sofa, etc. but no bass treatments. I'd like to get the best possible sound using positioning, xt32, etc. before moving to treatments.

The problem? Sound is disappointing - bass tends to range from so-so to boomy. Nothing that makes me go wow. I ran Audyssey xt32 which didn't appear to help much. I set it up using the default settings recommended by Rythmik.

My next steps are:

Use REW + UMIK-1 to take measurement
Run Audyssey, this time using a microphone stand (instead of balancing on a tripod)

Any suggestions on what else to do?


I understand that room treatments aren't your first choice but the almost square nature of your room has put several room modes close to each other. This typically reinforces the uneven response caused by modes. The typical recommendations in this case seem to be bass traps in one or more corners and perhaps two or more well placed subs.

The following are the lower frequency axial modes that are close together in your room. This is very approximate since real rooms and simple calculations often give different results, but it gives you an idea of where the problems may originate. I hope it makes some sort of sense.

1st Modes: Length 23 Hz, Width 25 Hz - these put a null along the center of the room in each direction, these nulls meet in the middle of the room. These nulls can be especially disheartening since seating positions are often centered on one or both axises.

2nd Modes: Length 45 Hz, Width 51 Hz along - these put a peak along the center of the room in each direction, these peaks meet in the middle of the room and may reinforce each other since they are fairly close together, plus nulls between the center line peaks and the walls.

3rd Modes, Length 68 Hz, Width, 76 Hz along with 1st Height Mode, 71 Hz - the effect here is complex but overlapping frequencies likely cause greater peaks and nulls than if the frequencies had greater separation. The 1st height mode may put a null 4 ft off the floor at 71 Hz.

A sub in the corner maximizes the effect of these modes; peak and null.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:49 AM
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Flip the Phase Switch, close any doors leading into the room, I never liked auto-EQ but without an EQ box or running sound thru a computer sound card with EQ all you could do is lower the mains, center and surround levels -> it has the same effect as boosting Bass without increasing power. That's a Big room for 1 sub to fill. When I flipped the Phase switch it sounded like doubling the bass and Much Clearer.
Best of luck.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:24 AM
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Help!

 

Ok, I'm lost and a little embarrassed this is so confusing to me. I got home from work last night and found my F12 waiting for me. Unbooked it (Nice packing btw), hooked it up exactly as instructions stated for 2 channel with one cable connected to the pre-out L and one pre out R into their corresponding "Line in" of the sub. Then I throw on some Herbie Hancock (Thrust) and I heard no difference. Nothing. I played around with different settings, gain, etc and still it was barely audible. The driver was hardly moving. 

 

I was so beat from work and my wife had dinner ready, so I'm saving a proper set-up process for after work tonight and endless research, as well as asking you guys, as to what I cold be doing wrong.

 

What am I doing wrong? There's something not right and I think it's user error. 

 

My set-up is Peachtree 220/Nova Pre with Salk SongTowers. The NovaPre has two pre-outs; one for the amp and the other for "An addition amp or subwoofer" as stated in the manual. It was recommended to run my speakers full range by other owners and Jim Salk, 

 

Should I be using LFE? Wrong cables? Something wrong with preamp? I don't know. My set up sounds awesome, but I wanted to add some bass for certain types of music and an occasional movie. As of now, there is no audible difference adding the sub. After reading so much about it, I know I'm doing something wrong.

 

This seriously bums me out. Any advice will be helpful. 

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Old 02-27-2014, 05:07 AM
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Help!

Ok, I'm lost and a little embarrassed this is so confusing to me. I got home from work last night and found my F12 waiting for me. Unbooked it (Nice packing btw), hooked it up exactly as instructions stated for 2 channel with one cable connected to the pre-out L and one pre out R into their corresponding "Line in" of the sub. Then I throw on some Herbie Hancock (Thrust) and I heard no difference. Nothing. I played around with different settings, gain, etc and still it was barely audible. The driver was hardly moving. 

I was so beat from work and my wife had dinner ready, so I'm saving a proper set-up process for after work tonight and endless research, as well as asking you guys, as to what I cold be doing wrong.

What am I doing wrong? There's something not right and I think it's user error. 

My set-up is Peachtree 220/Nova Pre with Salk SongTowers. The NovaPre has two pre-outs; one for the amp and the other for "An addition amp or subwoofer" as stated in the manual. It was recommended to run my speakers full range by other owners and Jim Salk, 

Should I be using LFE? Wrong cables? Something wrong with preamp? I don't know. My set up sounds awesome, but I wanted to add some bass for certain types of music and an occasional movie. As of now, there is no audible difference adding the sub. After reading so much about it, I know I'm doing something wrong.

This seriously bums me out. Any advice will be helpful. 

What position do you have the on/auto/off switch set to? If its in the auto, play some bass heavy material and see it turns green. Check to see if the LED on the back of the sub turns from red to green.
robcentola likes this.

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V1800/Yamaha RX-V1500
Display: Vizio SV-470M 47"/Toshiba 32" CRT
BluRay/CD: Sony BDP-S360/Toshiba DVD/VHS; Turntable ProJect Xpression III
Speakers PSB: Mains Image T-45/Alphas; Center Image 8C/100C; Srnd Image 1B/Alpha Mites
Subwoofer: Rythmic LV12-R/PSB Subsonic 5
Media Player WD + 3TB USB drive/Iomega + 1TB internal drive
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f12g subwoofer , lv12r , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub
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