Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 472 - AVS Forum
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post #14131 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 01:56 PM
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post #14132 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 01:59 PM
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It hurts knowing my F12 is sitting on my porch and I'm here at work!
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post #14133 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

It's connected using the Rocketfish Wireless kit as I have it nearfield to two couches appoximately 3ft away. Audyssey is setting the sub at like -12, but I'm guessing that's because it's nearfield.
two potential problems:
1. Your wireless kit. Can you not run a long cable from avr directly to sub? Or at least try to?
2. Audyssey did not apply filter beyond -12db level. Lower your Rythmik volume knob one or two ticks and rerun Audyssey til it is about -8 or -6db trim level. You can stop at 1st mic calibration and click calculate to see the trim level. At long as the trim is not -12 or +12, you can go back and run all 8 positions. I prefer the sub trim to be about -6db.
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post #14134 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 02:38 PM
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I need some help. I have a 3000 cu ft movie room I built in my unused attic space. I currently have a klipsch sw112 and a Polk psw505 that I want to replace. Would two LV12Rs be a significant upgrade? My budget is around 1200.
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post #14135 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

The wireless kit does come with cheap RCA cables for both transmitters, but I doubt that could be the cause.

Brian can explain this much better than me but he mentioned to me about 2 years ago that wireless transmitters make servo useless. One of the reasons is that they add delay (latency) and the Rocketfish adds about 20 ms delay to the equation. So first thing you need to do is take out the Rocketfish out of the chain and re run Audyssey with a subwoofer cable.

Best Regards,

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post #14136 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

Brian can explain this much better than me but he mentioned to me about 2 years ago that wireless transmitters make servo useless. One of the reasons is that they add delay (latency) and the Rocketfish adds about 20 ms delay to the equation. So first thing you need to do is take out the Rocketfish out of the chain and re run Audyssey with a subwoofer cable.

Hooked up my 25ft cable and I'm running through Audyssey as I type this.

Receiver - Denon 4311
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #14137 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 03:14 PM
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So I just ran through the pod emergence scene on war of the worlds and heard it still. I took the grill off and ran through it again no more chuffling. Maybe the cone during maximum excursion was hitting the grill or the force of the air coming out of the port hitting the grill was the cause. Who knows, but it sounds good now. wink.gif

Receiver - Denon 4311
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #14138 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 03:45 PM
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Glad it works after all. The grill part doesn't make sense though. What is the sub trim level now?
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post #14139 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

Brian can explain this much better than me but he mentioned to me about 2 years ago that wireless transmitters make servo useless. One of the reasons is that they add delay (latency) and the Rocketfish adds about 20 ms delay to the equation. So first thing you need to do is take out the Rocketfish out of the chain and re run Audyssey with a subwoofer cable.


Doesn't his site sell a wireless setup? I might be wrong as I didn't go back to double check.
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post #14140 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

Glad it works after all. The grill part doesn't make sense though. What is the sub trim level now?

Audyssey set the sub to -12, so I bumped up the trim after calibration to -3.

Receiver - Denon 4311
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #14141 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 04:15 PM
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^^ did you not read my respond to you earlier? You need to bring it out from -12db to about -8db by decreasing your Rythmik volume by a click or two and rerun Audyssey.
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post #14142 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

^^ did you not read my respond to you earlier? You need to bring it out from -12db to about -8db by increasing your Rythmik volume by a click or two and rerun Audyssey.

He needs to lower the gain on his sub. The sub is too loud which is causing Audyssey to bottom out at -12db.
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post #14143 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 04:21 PM
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^^you are correct. I meant lower the sub volume and rerun Audyssey. I fixed my post
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post #14144 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

How could it be the receiver? Is Audyssey MultEQ XT not doing a sufficient job at calibrating the sub? I don't think the receiver is defective in any way as it is less than a year old.

Some receiver has the DTS-HD or any HD LFE decoded with 10db too hot. You will notice the bass is jus too heavy. This is difficult to debug because the problem is in the codec. Braveheart has a similar problem that he found his FV15HP just overload too quickly. We thought it is an amp problem. But it is not. I myself also have to deal with that problem.
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post #14145 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 04:27 PM
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^^ Brian is right with Onkyo and CA receiver Braveheart had. JT has Denon, so he should be good as long as his sub trim is NOT -12db
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post #14146 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

Brian can explain this much better than me but he mentioned to me about 2 years ago that wireless transmitters make servo useless. One of the reasons is that they add delay (latency) and the Rocketfish adds about 20 ms delay to the equation. So first thing you need to do is take out the Rocketfish out of the chain and re run Audyssey with a subwoofer cable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Some receiver has the DTS-HD or any HD LFE decoded with 10db too hot. You will notice the bass is jus too heavy. This is difficult to debug because the problem is in the codec. Braveheart has a similar problem that he found his FV15HP just overload too quickly. We thought it is an amp problem. But it is not. I myself also have to deal with that problem.

Brian / Enrico, How about a device like the minidsp 2x4. It adds about 1-2ms delay. Would that interfere with the servo mechanism as well?


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post #14147 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 04:37 PM
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Just backed the gain down a bit on the sub and re-ran Audyssey. It came back with -7.5 on the sub channel

Receiver - Denon 4311
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #14148 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

So I just ran through the pod emergence scene on war of the worlds and heard it still. I took the grill off and ran through it again no more chuffling. Maybe the cone during maximum excursion was hitting the grill or the force of the air coming out of the port hitting the grill was the cause. Who knows, but it sounds good now. wink.gif

I do not recommend wireless unless it is a very high quality one. You need to look closer at two specs of wireless solution: 1) resolution of digitization and 2) latency. The first spec deals with the resolution of signal digitization when the analog signal is converted into digital codes before they can be transmitted. 16-bits is equivalent to CD standard. But the problem is when the input signal exceed a assumed signal range, it can create all sorts of overload noise that sound exactly just like clipping. But there should be an indicator on the transmitter about this. But most don't. If it uses 24db, then it has quite a few bits more. So the system can set the full scale voltage to some insane value that we will never exceed. The second spec is the latency. That is the delay time between the analog signal entering the transmitter and the same (hopefully is the same, but you can bet there is additional noise and distortion) appearing at the output of the wireless receiver. If the latency is 20ms, it is equivalent of having the subwoofer placed 20ft further away from their physical location. You may need to use subwoofer distance in AVR to compensate for it (by entering the subwoofer distance 20ft further away). If not, then you will see a lot more uneven room response because the full wavelength of 80hz is only 12ft. 20ft is like having a 720 degrees shift and it passes phase inversion at least twice (180 degrees and 540 degrees). Not a good situation either as each inversion can lead to a null.

[EDIT] JT, you have mentioned that you experienced uneven in-room response. Wireless latency issue may explain that. Let me know if the response is now smoother without the wireless.

-
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post #14149 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ahmedreda View Post


Brian / Enrico, How about a device like the minidsp 2x4. It adds about 1-2ms delay. Would that interfere with the servo mechanism as well?

The latency problem is not unique to our subs, it applies to all subs. 1-2ms delay is like 1-2 ft distance. It is very easy to compensate.
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post #14150 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

Just backed the gain down a bit on the sub and re-ran Audyssey. It came back with -7.5 on the sub channel
Does that help from making port noise?
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post #14151 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 05:14 PM
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Yes and taking the grill off helped a little too.

Receiver - Denon 4311
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #14152 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

Does that help from making port noise?

So is it okay to boost the sub level in avr to +3 now if I want?

Receiver - Denon 4311
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #14153 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

So is it okay to boost the sub level in avr to +3 now if I want?

No.

If you boost the AVR's sub level TO +3, that means you have added 10.5 dBs. Don't do this.

If you boost the AVR's sub level an ADDITIONAL 3 dB so that you end up at -4.5 dB, this is OK.


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post #14154 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 07:00 PM
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Now I'm really confused. Don't a lot of you guys run your subs hot? Volume on the sub is at maybe 11 now, so if I boost sub channel in avr to -4.5 this is considered running hot?

Receiver - Denon 4311
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #14155 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 07:09 PM
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So whatever audyssey sets the sub channel to by boosting that number by 3db is considered running your sub 3db hot?

Receiver - Denon 4311
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #14156 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

Now I'm really confused. Don't a lot of you guys run your subs hot? Volume on the sub is at maybe 11 now, so if I boost sub channel in avr to -4.5 this is considered running hot?

"Running a sub hot" simply means raising the level higher than your calibration set it to. You don't have to be on the plus side to be considered hot. As a rule of thumb, most will run their subs at 3db "hot" which simply means 3 db higher than the calibration setting.

As laulau mentioned, for your situation, it means changing the sub level from -7.5 to -4.5.
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post #14157 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

So whatever audyssey sets the sub channel to by boosting that number by 3db is considered running your sub 3db hot?
Correct. I used to run my subs 6db hot but found it a bit much so I now run them 3dbs hot. 10db hot is aggressive and if you feel the need to do that, you might be sitting in the null area. Only way to find out is to measure your room frequency response. If you can move your sub, try the sub crawl method to find better bass at your MLP.
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post #14158 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post

"Running a sub hot" simply means raising the level higher than your calibration set it to. You don't have to be on the plus side to be considered hot. As a rule of thumb, most will run their subs at 3db "hot" which simply means 3 db higher than the calibration setting.

As laulau mentioned, for your situation, it means changing the sub level from -7.5 to -4.5.

I do run my subwoofers at 80dB. I have found Audyssey XT32 very conservative with subwoofer levels.

BTW, like your Avatar. I'm half Italian and my dad was born in Maranello, Modena. I used to go every year to the Ferrari Factory which is 4 miles away from my grandma's house in Italy biggrin.gif

Best Regards,

Enrico Castagnetti
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post #14159 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

I do run my subwoofers at 80dB. I have found Audyssey XT32 very conservative with subwoofer levels.

BTW, like your Avatar. I'm half Italian and my dad was born in Maranello, Modena. I used to go every year to the Ferrari Factory which is 4 miles away from my grandma's house in Italy biggrin.gif
Im half Italian too and still have relatives living there. My brother lives in Milan.

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post #14160 of 16682 Old 02-26-2014, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

So is it okay to boost the sub level in avr to +3 now if I want?

John, this really depends on how much head room you are looking or need to fill.

Each room calibrations are going to be different per your preferred settings along with everyone else.
Can you install and run REW and share what kind freq response are at and we can always go from there if you post your results.

I for one do not run *hot* and anything I set to 0 or below ( example: - ) is not hot (IMHO) , but also not knowing your volume gain is on your sub amp is going to change things up and that can be hot, LOL!! A good starting point is maybe setting the sub amp to 10 o'clock turning point is a good starting point, set the volume on your receiver to reference level / volume then go to your likes on the amp and turn it up. I normally like to play like a2 5- 30 hz note and tune from there if no go on REW.

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