Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 527 - AVS Forum
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post #15781 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 12:05 PM
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I really wanted to comment on the two big sub boxes dwarfing the two new toilet boxes in the background but just couldn't make it through the sort function... biggrin.gif

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #15782 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 12:25 PM
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^^^ that is some serious subwoofage. Nice!

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post #15783 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 01:12 PM
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That 18" driver look like mid range driver in that box smile.gif. That's the way to do it behind that AT screen. Are you hitting 135db at 16hz? How big is that room?
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post #15784 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

That 18" driver look like mid range driver in that box smile.gif. That's the way to do it behind that AT screen. Are you hitting 135db at 16hz? How big is that room?

With room gain a 130+dB shouldn't be an issue if I really want too. The room is 19.5ft long and the front wall is 14ft wide but the back wall where the seats are is only 12ft wide and my ceilings are just under 8ft high. The room is just over 1800cubic/ft.

Here's a pic with the screen up.


The stage is getting carpet installed this Saturday and I just need to finish build the fabric frames to go around the screen. It's been a work in progress over the last two years.
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post #15785 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

With room gain a 130+dB shouldn't be an issue if I really want too. The room is 19.5ft long and the front wall is 14ft wide but the back wall where the seats are is only 12ft wide and my ceilings are just under 8ft high. The room is just over 1800cubic/ft.

Here's a pic with the screen up.


The stage is getting carpet installed this Saturday and I just need to finish build the fabric frames to go around the screen. It's been a work in progress over the last two years.

It will be well worth it when it's said and done and quite rewarding.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #15786 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 03:20 PM
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1800ft^3 with soon to be 4 larger than full Marty 18" subs. This is a true sub fanatic or we should call subs crazy (in a good way) smile.gif have you ever been worrying about your room going down ? frown.gif
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post #15787 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

1800ft^3 with soon to be 4 larger than full Marty 18" subs. This is a true sub fanatic or we should call subs crazy (in a good way) smile.gif have you ever been worrying about your room going down ? frown.gif

No I'm not really concerned with my house falling apart...lol
Just because I have that much bass on tap doesn't mean I go crazy with it. I mostly did it for fun, I had dual PSA XS30's and wanted a little more but also wanted to build something myself. The group buy on the UXL-18's popped up so I jumped on getting four. I basically built my entire setup (drivers/amps/wood/cables & connectors) for right around the cost of two FV15HP's. Its pretty hard to argue with that value smile.gif

But DIY isn't for everyone and of course this in a Rythmik thread smile.gif

I look forward to hearing how these servo drivers work in the LV12R's that I'll be setting up soon smile.gif
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post #15788 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 03:59 PM
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It's okay we aren't thread nazis smile.gif

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #15789 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

It's okay we aren't thread nazis smile.gif

Well that's good to know... smile.gif

It gets pretty crazy, I've performed a few REW test tone sweeps and with just the two going I've hit 120dB @ 15hz eek.gif
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post #15790 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 04:11 PM
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That's some serious bass right there wow eek.gif

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #15791 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 04:14 PM
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Got my F12G delivered today!

First impressions:
This thing is infinitely easier to handle than the F15 due to the lighter weight.
Very easy to take it out of the box!
Of the 4 screw in base, only 1 is straight, 2 are slightly off, while 1 is very off. I had to use a hammer on the spike to make it mostly straight. The feet better not fail on me in the future...
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post #15792 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coli View Post

Got my F12G delivered today!

First impressions:
This thing is infinitely easier to handle than the F15 due to the lighter weight.
Very easy to take it out of the box!
Of the 4 screw in base, only 1 is straight, 2 are slightly off, while 1 is very off. I had to use a hammer on the spike to make it mostly straight. The feet better not fail on me in the future...

You should let Brian know about that.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #15793 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by coli View Post

Got my F12G delivered today!

Great to hear that you've got your F12G. So far, the count is 2 as far as the number people who's got F12G. Still waiting for mine...

How does it sound compared to your previous Rythmik F15 sub? Planning to use both would be an interesting combination. I assume you got the F12G because you wanted to cross over at a higher frequency with your KEF LS50s in direct mode? I've got the E301s and they seem to do better with a high cross over as well. Manual says start from 90Hz... rolleyes.gif

Maranatz SR-7009, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, LG LW6500, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 remote, KEF E301, MiniDSP(2x4), Rythmik F12G
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post #15794 of 17390 Old 05-29-2014, 07:46 PM
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Great to hear that you've got your F12G. So far, the count is 2 as far as the number people who's got F12G. Still waiting for mine...

How does it sound compared to your previous Rythmik F15 sub? Planning to use both would be an interesting combination. I assume you got the F12G because you wanted to cross over at a higher frequency with your KEF LS50s in direct mode? I've got the E301s and they seem to do better with a high cross over as well. Manual says start from 90Hz... rolleyes.gif

It'll be a few days before I can comment on the sound. Also, since the room is now much larger, it's probably not directly comparable.

I bought based on Danny's supreme confidence on audio circle that a lighter cone just sounds better wink.gif I will find out.
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post #15795 of 17390 Old 05-30-2014, 01:51 PM
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Anyone have experience with the F15HP? I'm looking to upgrade from a velodyne HGS 10 series II. I listen to a good deal of music and music DVDs. But also want to increase my thump for movies.
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post #15796 of 17390 Old 05-30-2014, 03:39 PM
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Anyone have experience with the F15HP? I'm looking to upgrade from a velodyne HGS 10 series II. I listen to a good deal of music and music DVDs. But also want to increase my thump for movies.

I just received two of the F15HPs one week ago. I think they're awesome! I've still got some experimentation to do to get them ideal, and they're not broke in yet either. The heartbeat from Dark Side was incredible (as was the rest of the album). Movie wise, I've run them with Horton Hears a Who, and Frozen both of which had some spectacular rumble and boom.

I'm coming from a single 8" sub though, so it's night and day for me. I have no experience with your HSG...

My room is 19 x 19.5 x 9.5 with a large side opening to another huge area. What size room are you dealing with?
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post #15797 of 17390 Old 05-30-2014, 04:08 PM
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Thanks for the reply. The living room is about 22 x 13, with a 10 x 10 area off one of the long walls. Ceiling is 8 feet.
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post #15798 of 17390 Old 05-30-2014, 07:07 PM
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I think I might roll the dice on an Onkyo 818 just for XT32. I'll hold on to my current Denon just in case the Onkyo gives me any fits. Both subs are equidistant to the MLP, so sub eq isn't necessarily needed and the 818 pumps out more wattage than my current receiver. It will be half the price of the higher tier receivers I'm interested in getting.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
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Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #15799 of 17390 Old 05-30-2014, 08:45 PM
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^^ are you sure that's what you want to do? Wattage is not a spec I want to use to make decision on a receiver. Are you going to ask yourself what if I got that x receiver with subEQ? Knowing you, you will smile.gif honestly, I wouldn't do that. It's too much of a lateral move. Buy it once and buy it right the first time. You know that.
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post #15800 of 17390 Old 05-30-2014, 09:00 PM
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I hear ya it's just a substantial increase in price. Pretty much double. My goal is XT32 and this seems like the most cost effective route.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #15801 of 17390 Old 05-30-2014, 09:05 PM
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^^ you upgraded to the FV which is more than double the LV12, then add another FV so double your avr budget is nothing in comparison. I would keep your Denon and add a miniDSP. You should be happy with that combo.
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post #15802 of 17390 Old 05-30-2014, 09:10 PM
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So I currently have the F12G right behind me, after XT32, the integration with the front 2 speakers is basically perfect. There is no localization of the sub at all. This is with a 100hz crossover too picked by the avr...
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post #15803 of 17390 Old 05-31-2014, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coli View Post

I bought based on Danny's supreme confidence on audio circle that a lighter cone just sounds better wink.gif I will find out.

I do like lighter cone drivers. But a lot of members on this forum will tell you that cone mass does not matter. I guess they got the idea from cars that cars with heavier weight may have the same handling as lighter cars. But what they haven't thought is "weight" is relative. Try put 3 heavy guys in the back seat and then try the handling again. It always becomes worse. If adding weight can make handling worse, what happens when the weight is actually reduced?
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post #15804 of 17390 Old 05-31-2014, 05:24 AM
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There are a couple of articles floating around on the subject. It's more likely the guys who think cone mass is not related to speed found these to be convincing. I must admit I had always thought light=fast as this seems intuitive, but the science posited would suggest that light only really equals efficient. I'm open to being schooled otherwise. The reading I've come across on the topic...

http://www.diy-audio.narod.ru/litr/WooferSpeed.pdf (old)
or
http://www.planetaudio.com.au/articles/the-fast-bass-experiment-are-heavy-woofers-slow/ (new)
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post #15805 of 17390 Old 05-31-2014, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Avgass View Post

There are a couple of articles floating around on the subject. It's more likely the guys who think cone mass is not related to speed found these to be convincing. I must admit I had always thought light=fast as this seems intuitive, but the science posited would suggest that light only really equals efficient. I'm open to being schooled otherwise. The reading I've come across on the topic...

http://www.diy-audio.narod.ru/litr/WooferSpeed.pdf (old)
or
http://www.planetaudio.com.au/articles/the-fast-bass-experiment-are-heavy-woofers-slow/ (new)

Audio has a long history and some very historical discussion were lost. For instance. I had a collection of Speaker Builder magzine when I was younger. I had read them more than 5 times. Later I begin to read AES and I threw those magzines away when I moved to a new house. One of the articles (date back 80's) was companies like SEAS or Scanspeak have this practice that their midrange driver and their midbass/bass driver are often introduced as a family. If you look at the spec, the cone material is the same, the basket is same, the only thing different is cone mass (when I say cone mass it is cone plus voice coil, there is no point of using feather weight cone mass and then put a ton of weight on voice coil) plus other thing. If they use both drivers in "midrange application", it was found the midrange driver always sound better than the midbass/bass driver used as midrange driver. THIS FACT is amusing because people from different background of training tried to explain this from different angles. People don't know eletronics will see it as "energy storage" and less weight is less energy storage . Those with eletronics background will say lower mass means low Q and lower Q means less ringing (if there is no ringing then it means shorter RC time). Those with servo background will say it has a better Mms/(BL)^2 vs inductance ratio and therefore better "cone control" (which means you can improve sound by reducing cone mass, or increasing BL value, or reducing inductance). But they are all the same thing, one related to another, but different angles.

BTW, today, I have forgotten most articles I read from Speaker Builder magzine, but that article with real world experiment is different.

-
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post #15806 of 17390 Old 05-31-2014, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avgass View Post

There are a couple of articles floating around on the subject. It's more likely the guys who think cone mass is not related to speed found these to be convincing. I must admit I had always thought light=fast as this seems intuitive, but the science posited would suggest that light only really equals efficient. I'm open to being schooled otherwise. The reading I've come across on the topic...

http://www.diy-audio.narod.ru/litr/WooferSpeed.pdf (old)
or
http://www.planetaudio.com.au/articles/the-fast-bass-experiment-are-heavy-woofers-slow/ (new)

that's pretty much it. the reason a 911 is faster than a much lighter go-kart is because of the size of the motor. Heavier cone needs heavier everything - voice coil, spider, former, and all that weight needs(or is part of) a bigger motor to make it move fast, and then you need more power to the motor, but it'll move plenty fast enough. If not it will go nonlinear (not louder enough) at the loud end of it's power capability. It won't "slow down" and start playing a 50 Hz tone instead of a 30 Hz tone.

FWiW, a million years ago when I was into car audio (although I was still looking for sorta-audiophile, not just huge bass sound) a guy posted that he installed a 15 in a box and ran his entire sound mono into the sub. No woofers/mids, no tweeters. Sounded fine to him. Probably rolled off severely above 3KHz or so, probably had a huge peak right below the rolloff, but he didn't care. Still could hear the cymbals and sibilants up in the 2K to 5 KHz range adequately. While it wasn't moving as far for the highs, that woofer (like a guitar amp speaker) was moving 25 times faster at 5KHz than at the top of a reasonably extended sub band at say 200 Hz (at least at the same voltage input, aiui)..
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post #15807 of 17390 Old 05-31-2014, 09:23 AM
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The "heavy" vs. "light" cone debate has been around forever. It is one parameter among many, and must be balanced appropriately. In addition to the inertia and driving force required, there are other things like thermal distortion and cone distortion (cone flexing in response to drive and air pressure). Extreme examples can help illustrate the latter: a cone made from a sheet of paper is very light but will flex (distort) if you blow on it hard let alone drive it by a decent amplifier. A cone made of concrete or thick lead would not flex under any conceivable driving force but moving the thing would be almost impractical and controlling its movement an extreme challenge. In between we have the reality of design trades leading to practical drivers. All about balance, or optimal trades among compromises...

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post #15808 of 17390 Old 05-31-2014, 09:39 AM
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Alright, got the F12G-SE setup properly with placement and XT32. The sub is behind me. Couple observations:

Integration with the speakers is perfect. No localization whatsoever at the listening position. What subwoofer? LOL

Definitely got a lot less <20hz output than the F15 according to UMIK measurement, as expected. Higher measured distortion down there as a result.

Spikes definitely reduce distortion, especially >40hz. As expected.

Sub can rattle with the spike on tile, especially doing noise test. Sandbag solves everything here.

The enclosure vibration was quite a lot compared to the F15, the enclosure strength doesn't seem to be sufficient when running the AVR's 75db noise...

I kinda wish there's feet base on the amp side, so I can experiment with upward firing placement... Also, Brian, you need better quality control for the feet base/screw-in, they are not leveled enough and they need to be screwed/glued in themselves to the enclosure. I had to "pull" a base out a bit...
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post #15809 of 17390 Old 05-31-2014, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

The "heavy" vs. "light" cone debate has been around forever. It is one parameter among many, and must be balanced appropriately. In addition to the inertia and driving force required, there are other things like thermal distortion and cone distortion (cone flexing in response to drive and air pressure). Extreme examples can help illustrate the latter: a cone made from a sheet of paper is very light but will flex (distort) if you blow on it hard let alone drive it by a decent amplifier. A cone made of concrete or thick lead would not flex under any conceivable driving force but moving the thing would be almost impractical and controlling its movement an extreme challenge. In between we have the reality of design trades leading to practical drivers. All about balance, or optimal trades among compromises...

Don, I agree. However, I am just surprised that people investigate the problem using the wrong methods. For instance, some look at impulse response. But impulse response is same frequency response (or step response). I have a DSP system that converts frequency response (with phase) to impulse or backward. If the article author wanna see the impact of cone mass to impulse response, he may just use frequency response and make the article shorter. The difference of these mass difference is very subtle and yet look at all the speaeker measurement with noisy background and poor resolution. That is why we keep going back to the same conclusion -- there is no difference.
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post #15810 of 17390 Old 05-31-2014, 09:41 AM
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Also, Brian, you need better quality control for the feet base/screw-in, they are not leveled enough and they need to be screwed/glued in themselves to the enclosure. I had to "pull" a base out a bit...

Sorry about that. I will discuss this with supplier.
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