Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 535 - AVS Forum
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post #16021 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 07:37 AM
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The LV12R has 2.5 dB more output at 20 Hz than the F12, then falls off rapidly where the F12 rolls off gradually below it's 14 Hz -3 dB point. How many use that extra 2.5 dB at the loud end I could not say; probably fewer than think they do. Audiophiles always seem to demand more power, more output, more more more even when objectively it should not matter. But bass is tricky...

I seriously doubt whatever is missing in the living room is due to the LV12R. I would bet more on differences in the room and changing to an F12 would not change that. If the living room is larger and/or open to other rooms, has less favorable dimensions, etc. then you'll have less "shake and rumble" no matter what sub you put in there.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16022 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnick1 View Post
Thank you for the in-depth response! Just curious, as to how I find the cross over using the Yamaha? I thought the cross over was based on the white paper specs of the speakers?
YPAO will set the crossover. It will become more clear when you get the receiver. Read the manual while youre waiting for it.
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post #16023 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jnick1 View Post
Thank you for the in-depth response! Just curious, as to how I find the cross over using the Yamaha? I thought the cross over was based on the white paper specs of the speakers?

Also, I already have a Radio Shack digital SPL. Could I use this as the microphone in REW? I noticed there was a whole guide on using it. I only ask because I topped out my budget on the equipment, not knowing I would need a $100 mic or a $100 DSP. I can maybe get the DSP in a little bit, but I definitely won't be able to have it by the time I initially setup the system :/. Could I get by using the RS SPL with REW and manually configure the dB for the Sub in the 675?
Plug the YPAO microphone into the jack on your AVR and run its room correction. It finds the crossover for you. You don't need an SPL to set the level on your sub. Just try the gain around half way and run YPAO. If it sets your sub around -6 to -8, you are golden. If it sets it much lower than that, lower the gain a little bit and rerun YPAO. If it sets your sub to close to 0 or above, raise the gain and rerun YPAO until it sets the sub near -6 to -8. After YPAO, raise the subwoofer trim level 3 to 6 dB to taste.


When funds permit, do get a Umik-1 mic and a miniDSP for about $200 total. It will help you transform your in room frequency response from looking like a scary roller coaster to a nice flat line.

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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Harmony 650

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post #16024 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
When funds permit, do get a Umik-1 mic and a miniDSP for about $200 total. It will help you transform your in room frequency response from looking like a scary roller coaster to a nice flat line.
lol Funny and true.
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post #16025 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
When funds permit, do get a Umik-1 mic and a miniDSP for about $200 total. It will help you transform your in room frequency response from looking like a scary roller coaster to a nice flat line.
Then he will add a second sub like you did
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post #16026 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Then he will add a second sub like you did

Funny what facts(measured in room response) make you do.

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LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

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post #16027 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
trying to place a second lv12r in my living room will be difficult because of the rear port. F12 (or 15 line up, little heavy for me to move around) looked possible. I have a f12 in my office that I listen to music with I like it and I thing something is missing when listening in the living room to the same speaker and lv12r. Movie wise, I was expecting more shake and rumble. Not sure how much of that is listing position and room modes.

Checout how close my sub sits to the back wall
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post #16028 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 01:29 PM
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I think as long as you have about 6" you're good to go.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #16029 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 01:42 PM
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4" to 5" is the minimum we recommend for the LV12R.

Best Regards,

Enrico Castagnetti
Rythmik Audio

 

My Multimedia Room Gallery

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post #16030 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Plug the YPAO microphone into the jack on your AVR and run its room correction. It finds the crossover for you. You don't need an SPL to set the level on your sub. Just try the gain around half way and run YPAO. If it sets your sub around -6 to -8, you are golden. If it sets it much lower than that, lower the gain a little bit and rerun YPAO. If it sets your sub to close to 0 or above, raise the gain and rerun YPAO until it sets the sub near -6 to -8. After YPAO, raise the subwoofer trim level 3 to 6 dB to taste.


When funds permit, do get a Umik-1 mic and a miniDSP for about $200 total. It will help you transform your in room frequency response from looking like a scary roller coaster to a nice flat line.
Thank you for the information! However, I thought the sub should be closer to 0 after YPAO?? What is the reasoning that it should be closer to -8?

I was told have the gain around "2" and try to get YPAO to zero, then bump the dB up. Is that completely wrong?

Also, speaking of graphs, I have no idea how to read SPL graphs or sub graphs. From your statement, I'm guessing the peaks and valleys are NOT what we want, but instead a nice smooth line?

Thanks!!
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post #16031 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 07:19 PM
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnick1 View Post
Thank you for the in-depth response! Just curious, as to how I find the cross over using the Yamaha? I thought the cross over was based on the white paper specs of the speakers?
When you run YPAO, the AVR will determine the crossover frequency based on your room, speaker placement and Main Listening Position. Check against your speaker manufacturer's specification that it isn't lower. If YPAO sets the crossover at 40Hz and your speaker manufacturer says the -3dB point is 60Hz, raise the crossover to at least 60Hz. Raising the crossover is okay, lowering it isn't. This is because the room correction will work up to the crossover and then drop by -24dB/octave beyond the crossover (on each side of the high and loss pass filters). This means there is a potential hole if not done right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnick1 View Post
Also, I already have a Radio Shack digital SPL. Could I use this as the microphone in REW? I noticed there was a whole guide on using it. I only ask because I topped out my budget on the equipment, not knowing I would need a $100 mic or a $100 DSP. I can maybe get the DSP in a little bit, but I definitely won't be able to have it by the time I initially setup the system :/. Could I get by using the RS SPL with REW and manually configure the dB for the Sub in the 675?
I'm not familiar with using the radio shack SPL as the mic input to REW. You'll have to go over to Home Theater Shack and ask there. This is known as a legacy setup and will require some additional hardware such as a phantom power, dual way sound card controller, a more complex wiring system, correction curves, etc. It can be done. Costs about the same as getting a USB mic, but it's more complicated setup with a steep learning curve. I like simple and reliable setup that would get measurements done in about 15 minutes.

Do the sub crawl positioning method first to get your Rythmik sub placement sorted out. Follow the instructions Brian has given in the printed handout for LV12R initial settings.

Then run YPAO.

You'll get to about 80% of the sound there. Enjoy your system by playing some tunes and watching a few movies.

After a while you can look at the remaining 20% improvement. By then you'll have saved up some cash to get some additional hardware.
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post #16032 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnick1 View Post
Thank you for the information! However, I thought the sub should be closer to 0 after YPAO?? What is the reasoning that it should be closer to -8?

I was told have the gain around "2" and try to get YPAO to zero, then bump the dB up. Is that completely wrong?

Also, speaking of graphs, I have no idea how to read SPL graphs or sub graphs. From your statement, I'm guessing the peaks and valleys are NOT what we want, but instead a nice smooth line?

Thanks!!
The reason to get YPAO to set your sub trim to -8 or so is so that you can increase your sub by 3-6 dB or whatever your preference, without exceeding 0 in the AVR. There is a chance that raising the sub trim above zero can clip the signal and result in distortion. YPAO typically sets the subwoofer level lower than most peoples taste, likely due to the equal loudness curve, so increasing the trim level 3-6 dB is common.

A smooth line on a FR graph means that all frequencies of bass produced by the subwoofer are heard at the same level. Large peaks and dips results in very uneven bass.
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AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

Sub:       (2) PSA XV15se

Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

Apple TV

Harmony 650

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post #16033 of 16975 Old 06-19-2014, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
trying to place a second lv12r in my living room will be difficult because of the rear port. F12 (or 15 line up, little heavy for me to move around) looked possible. I have a f12 in my office that I listen to music with I like it and I thing something is missing when listening in the living room to the same speaker and lv12r. Movie wise, I was expecting more shake and rumble. Not sure how much of that is listing position and room modes.

You should feel free to turn up the volume on LV12R. The indicator will blink when it is into clipping. As long as you are not making it blink, you should be able to turn up the volume and make the subwoofer hotter.
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post #16034 of 16975 Old 06-20-2014, 07:45 AM
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Bear and Steve - thank you so much for your patience and your explanation! The last time I setup an HT system was in 2006 for my dad and even then, I didn't go this crazy. I just did a configuration with an SPL. I guess I should re-configure his setup especially since he is running a Onkyo receiver with Audessey!

The sub arrives today, and the cabling should be here by the beginning of next week. I'll spend the next few days reading manuals and forum posts to make sure I have all my ducks in a row. I also like the idea of enjoying the system, then down the road, tweaking it for a bit more finesse!

With the sub crawl, while I know it's best to do this to find the best placement, however with my basement setup, there really is only two options for me right now. Within the next few months, once I get rid of the 125 Gallon aquarium, I'll have a bit more wall space to do the crawl. With that said, should I still do the crawl with the sub in one of the two positions? Or do I just put it in each position and listen to a track to determine what sounds better?

Once again, thank you very much for all of your help!
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post #16035 of 16975 Old 06-20-2014, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
When funds permit, do get a Umik-1 mic and a miniDSP for about $200 total. It will help you transform your in room frequency response from looking like a scary roller coaster to a nice flat line.
Just curious, my buddy found a 'Blue Snowball' condenser microphone that I could borrow from him. Would that work with REW? It is USB. Here is a link to the microphone:

http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Microphon.../dp/B000EOPQ7E

I did a search on HTS's REW forum but found no results for it.

Thanks!
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post #16036 of 16975 Old 06-20-2014, 11:26 AM
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^^ you can try and tell us but from looking at it, it's designed for vocal with 40-18000hz frequency range.
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post #16037 of 16975 Old 06-20-2014, 11:59 AM
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^^ you can try and tell us but from looking at it, it's designed for vocal with 40-18000hz frequency range.
Good catch. I also read that because of the 4-5" spherical opening, it has some distortion issues. Oh well, thought I may have been able to do this sooner than later! Good catch on the frequencies. Thanks!
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post #16038 of 16975 Old 06-21-2014, 04:06 PM
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I just ordered my first subwoofer ever, never had one before, and went with a Rythmik E15 after reading about them here.

I got one out of the clearance section and it said "pre-owned E15 black oak finish less than 1 year old with 15% discount. There is a very tiny dent mark on the cone. Otherwise, it is in mint condition with full warranty".

Now keep in mind I am a real newbie here and excuse me for asking, but what part of the subwoofer is the cone and can someone confirm a tiny dent there will make no difference to performance, reliability, or sound.

Also, I ordered a Mediabridge Ultra Series Subwoofer Cable from Amazon to hook this up to my Denon X1000, it was cheep but is it also good enough and the correct cable to use.

I'm pretty excited to be adding a sub to my system and can hardly wait for it to get here.

Thank you for your responses in advance and I may be back soon after my sub arrives for set up advice to match my JBL 580's 530's and 520, but for now I am hoping the Audyssey will match and set up correctly for me.
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post #16039 of 16975 Old 06-21-2014, 04:11 PM
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The cone is the "speaker". If the dent is in the dust cover it won't really matter. Anyplace on the cone a small dent should not affect the performance of a subwoofer.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16040 of 16975 Old 06-21-2014, 04:39 PM
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The Mediabridge cable is the correct one and will work fine.
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post #16041 of 16975 Old 06-22-2014, 11:32 AM
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On wall 8" subwoofer

Brian;
What is the minimum build depth for a single DS800 driver?

If there is no rear pole vent it should be easy to counter sink the the magnet into the cabinets back panel. Thermal concerns?
Also need to account for the front grill clearance of the surround at maximum extension.
I guess I'm asking for the DS800 total side profile height + Xmax.

A lot of WAF approved room locations open up if the total cabinet depth can be kept to an absolute minimum. ( think way off the floor : )
I would really like to do In wall's, but that automatically excludes any insulated exterior walls locations.

Would a single HX580 drive 4X DS800-6's ?
Shawn
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post #16042 of 16975 Old 06-22-2014, 12:56 PM
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The search function doesn't seem to be working, so apologies on not being able to find the answer to my question on my own. Realizing I'm posting to a biased audience in this thread, I'd welcome any input:

Set up: Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000s upfront, Def Tech ProSub 1000 (which I'm looking to replace). Center is a proCenter 1000, rears are proMonitor800s. Denon 1913 AVR.

Room: 14x22x9 with the room open to a stair well, a dining room and a hall way.

Use: Probably gets more use for TV than anything, time wise, but 2.1 stereo music listening is where I focus my attention. Obviously, digging deeper on the register when watching movies is something I'm hoping for.

Budget: was hoping for the $500 range, but as I indicate below, I could go up to $1000.

Smaller and higher quality fit and finish are important for WAF, but she is fine with the current DT sub, which isn't really a beauty, in my opinion.

I'm considering:
I've emailed with SVS and they recommended the PB1000. Merlin says the PB1000 or SB1000. Given my preference for musical performance over HT use, I thought about opting for the SB1000 over their advice, and since its smaller, I could maybe convince the wife to allow a second one in the room. 2x SB1000 is the priciest option I've considered, but sealed subs (tighter bass) and the small footprint appeal to me.

I've emailed Hsu and described my room, speakers and uses and the recommendation was the Hsu VTF-3 Mk4. My reservations are its size and the variable tuning will probably lead to me fiddling with it until my wife threatens my physical well being.

Lots of folks have recommended the Rythmik LV12R, and reviews seem to indicate that it is especially music friendly for a ported sub.

PSA recommended the xv15se, but I think that'll be just too massive; they said the PSA xs15 would also do well as long as I didn't want to play at extremely loud volumes.

Other options I should consider, or help picking among the choices presented is appreciated.

Last edited by DonnyKerabatsos; 06-22-2014 at 01:13 PM. Reason: added PSA info
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post #16043 of 16975 Old 06-22-2014, 01:56 PM
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^^ I would start a new thread but if you can wait till Thanksgiving, the new FVX15 seems to be a great value/performance sub for about a grand plus $140 shipping. It is on a big size sub however. There was a used LV12R for $400 on AVS ad section.
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post #16044 of 16975 Old 06-22-2014, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
4" to 5" is the minimum we recommend for the LV12R.
Curious -- why have a rear port if that means you have to push out into the room like this? As opposed to a front port that is. There's bound to be a design reason for it, I just don't know what it is. Please enlighten me.
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post #16045 of 16975 Old 06-22-2014, 02:59 PM
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Keeps the size down by not needing area for a port on the front. Port noise to the back instead of the front, but that really shouldn't be an issue with a good design (which Rythmik is, natch). Not sure any other technical reason.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16046 of 16975 Old 06-22-2014, 03:31 PM
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Keeps the size down by not needing area for a port on the front.
I sorta thought that. Yet, by putting the port at the back, and then requiring placement of at least 5" off the wall, the box is effectively 5" bigger because of that rear facing port. And I can just about guarantee that many (most?) of those placements are less than that -- they either started closer to the wall, or they've worked their way closer to the wall. Wives will do that if they feel the subs are in the way, or unattractive, etc.

And it's this off-the-wall requirement that's keeping me from pulling the trigger on a pair. But I'm not in a hurry; I can wait and see what future designs look like.
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post #16047 of 16975 Old 06-22-2014, 03:35 PM
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Opinions and space vary. Mine are well off the back wall. A lot of people probably put in a corner at an angle or in line with their TV stand/console and front speakers, side of the couch, etc. so the clearance behind is not an issue, and/or not as much as making the sub wider or taller. Where mine sit, I could deal with taller but not wider.

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post #16048 of 16975 Old 06-22-2014, 07:22 PM
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^^ Bruce/DonH50,

If my memory serves me correctly, Brian mentioned that one of the main reason for the change in design of front port to rear port on the LV12R was due to cabinet maker cost increase.

Somewhere in the thread, Brian laid out other reasons for changing the design.

I also think there was a mention by Brian of increased boundary gain that can be achieved with the rear port compared to the front port? Not sure about this.

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post #16049 of 16975 Old 06-22-2014, 09:48 PM
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^^^
That is correct. The front firing needs a very transparent cloth grille, and that costs more ($30 increase in retail price). This won't be a problem in more expensive models. Anyway, we are going to have more models between LV12R and FV15HP, customers certainly will have more choices.
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post #16050 of 16975 Old 06-22-2014, 11:31 PM
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spike feet for FV15HP recommended?

I'm about to bite the bullet on a FV15HP. I have wall-to-wall carpeting, so am leaning toward getting the $45 spike feet, though they seem a little pricey and the sub is already pushing the budget a bit. Anyone have any feedback on whether they'd recommend the spike feet versus either the included rubber feet or some generic, cheaper spike solution? Thanks!
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer

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