Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 539 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 06-27-2014, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Also I strongly recommend to trust more in your ears than in REW or any other measurement tool.
Your ears are great because they interpret what YOU like, or "preference". However, they are abysmal in trying to determine if you're reproducing the response accurately, or to "reference" (flat response).


Depends what your goals are...
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Your ears are great because they interpret what YOU like, or "preference". However, they are abysmal in trying to determine if you're reproducing the response accurately, or to "reference" (flat response).


Depends what your goals are...
My goal is to enjoy music, plain and simple. And because is thru my ears that music gets into my brain then I trust in my ears. As a FOH sound engineer for 25 years I learned that you need to trust in you ears more than anything. When you are in front of your desk mixing live you don't have time to take measurements, the only tool you have is your ears. Also flat response is boring
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Old 06-27-2014, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laulau View Post
Here's a document that I did for a friend a few years back when he bought a Rythmik. It's an aggregation of info from numerous sources so I don't take any credit (or responsibility) for the information...none of it is etched in stone, so use or disregard any of the info, as you see fit. The document has evolved a lot since I originally did it and is decidedly Audyssey-centric, but if nothing else, it has a bunch of links to helpful references.

YMMV.

HTH
Hi laulau,

Thanks for this, it's greatly appreciated. It should be included as a sticky.

Would like some clarification under item 2. Recommended initial setup when using an AVR. Your write-up mentions that for sealed subs the extension should be set to mid damping before running the room EQ.

In the handout from Brian, he recommends low damping.

I can only assume that Brian's rec is more correct as one can go up through mid to high damping after room EQ.

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Old 06-27-2014, 11:29 PM
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I've got Focal 716V 2.5-way towers, matching center, and older JMLab Tantal 507 bookshelf rears, powered by a Denon X2000. I have a Rythmik FV15HP sub on the way. Any advice on where to set the crossover point between the speakers and sub?

I figured I'd start with the textbook 80hz "small" speaker setting, but obviously my speakers (even the rears) can go a lot lower than that. To be clear, this is for home theater. For music (I listen to a lot of classical, especially solo and chamber) I'm guessing I'll prefer to let the towers do their stereo thing via the "pure direct" mode and turn off the sub.

Of course there'll be some classical music (organ, and even orchestral) where I'll want the sub to supplement the towers, in a perfect world I'd have two crossover settings, maybe an 80hz one for home theater and a 40hz one for music where I want the sub, but I don't think the Denon will allow me to store two different crossover settings (by all means correct me if I'm mistaken).
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Old 06-28-2014, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Hi laulau,

Thanks for this, it's greatly appreciated. It should be included as a sticky.

Would like some clarification under item 2. Recommended initial setup when using an AVR. Your write-up mentions that for sealed subs the extension should be set to mid damping before running the room EQ.

In the handout from Brian, he recommends low damping.

I can only assume that Brian's rec is more correct as one can go up through mid to high damping after room EQ.

You're right, there is a disparity between what is in paragraph 4 of the PEQ Installation Guide and what was posted in post #6240. However, in post #8127 Brian provided further reasoning for using Mid damping, so I've always gone with the Mid damping setting. A person could always just try both approaches and see which one works better for them. Experimenting can be fun.

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Old 06-28-2014, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
My goal is to enjoy music, plain and simple. And because is thru my ears that music gets into my brain then I trust in my ears. As a FOH sound engineer for 25 years I learned that you need to trust in you ears more than anything. When you are in front of your desk mixing live you don't have time to take measurements, the only tool you have is your ears. Also flat response is boring
Boring to you, but accurate to the industry.

Mixers most definitely have to use their ears to record...and I know they do an excellent job. But that's the reason I want a flat response and use measuring gear to achieve it! I want to experience what the mixer wanted me to hear accurately (reference), not my personal flavor of it (preference).

Having said that, for movies I run my bass hot, but it is still a flat bass response, just elevated.

Not trying to start a debate here of what sounds better, reference or preference. Just pointing out different approaches...depends on your goals as I said before.

Last edited by dominguez1; 06-28-2014 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 06-28-2014, 06:41 AM
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So I decided that before I buy the Denon X4000 online I would pick it up at my local Best Buy to test it out. I sure am glad I took this approach. Hooked everything up yesterday moved one subwoofer to the back left corner of the room next to the MLP and the other stayed in the front right corner of the room. Ran through the complete calibration via Audyssey and was highly disappointed with the results afterwards. My speakers sounded the same and the subs sounded worse. I got no hard hitting bass next to the MLP like I was expecting. I guess this is a good thing because now I can scratch the need for a new receiver off my list. I'm not saying that the Denon X4000 is bad receiver. It simply did not do wonders for my system.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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Old 06-28-2014, 07:05 AM
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^REW and a Mini DSP would be a much better approach. Not to mention a lot cheaper(200.00). The majority of folks that swear by audyssey do not measure the response(not implying everybody) and assume its doing such a great job. While some have had great results with it, there are many that have had the exact opposite experience. Spend some time researching the members that have "super systems" and you will see that audyssey is not relied upon to handle the sub EQ duties.You will find the Mini DSP 2x1, 10x10, Open Dirac, and Jriver popular choices.
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Old 06-28-2014, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Boring to you, but accurate to the industry.

Mixers most definitely have to use their ears to record...and I know they do an excellent job. But that's the reason I want a flat response and use measuring gear to achieve it! I want to experience what the mixer wanted me to hear accurately (reference), not my personal flavor of it (preference).

Having said that, for movies I run my bass hot, but it is still a flat bass response, just elevated.

Not trying to start a debate here of what sounds better, reference or preference. Just pointing out different approaches...depends on your goals as I said before.
My opinion is measure and do what you can to achieve a flat response, then adjust from there to taste.
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Old 06-28-2014, 08:17 AM
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The FV15HP is extreme!
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Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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Old 06-28-2014, 08:29 AM
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^ from 2012...
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Old 06-28-2014, 08:45 AM
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I know I was looking for something and stumbled upon it.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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Old 06-28-2014, 08:45 AM
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I was a lot happier with Dirac than Audyssey. I'd definitely recommend Dirac Live or the Dirac MiniDSPs. I did like Audyssey XT32 a lot better than prior variants of Audyssey, though. XT32 was the first time I preferred room correction over no room correction, but once I tried Dirac, I couldn't go back to Audyssey.

I'm not sure how much of the difference is Dirac's algorithm vs. Dirac curve editing and iteration, but I am sure I liked the end result.
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Old 06-28-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
I've got Focal 716V 2.5-way towers, matching center, and older JMLab Tantal 507 bookshelf rears, powered by a Denon X2000. I have a Rythmik FV15HP sub on the way. Any advice on where to set the crossover point between the speakers and sub?

I figured I'd start with the textbook 80hz "small" speaker setting, but obviously my speakers (even the rears) can go a lot lower than that. To be clear, this is for home theater. For music (I listen to a lot of classical, especially solo and chamber) I'm guessing I'll prefer to let the towers do their stereo thing via the "pure direct" mode and turn off the sub.

Of course there'll be some classical music (organ, and even orchestral) where I'll want the sub to supplement the towers, in a perfect world I'd have two crossover settings, maybe an 80hz one for home theater and a 40hz one for music where I want the sub, but I don't think the Denon will allow me to store two different crossover settings (by all means correct me if I'm mistaken).
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The FV15HP is extreme!
Yep. I have an open floorplan so the sub is going to have to pressurize a lot of air. I wanted to go for something much more modest, like the LV12R, but finally decided in my space it was unlikely to be sufficient. Of course sufficient is relative, I'm sure lots of folks would want at least two subs in my space...
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Old 06-28-2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
So I decided that before I buy the Denon X4000 online I would pick it up at my local Best Buy to test it out. I sure am glad I took this approach. Hooked everything up yesterday moved one subwoofer to the back left corner of the room next to the MLP and the other stayed in the front right corner of the room. Ran through the complete calibration via Audyssey and was highly disappointed with the results afterwards. My speakers sounded the same and the subs sounded worse. I got no hard hitting bass next to the MLP like I was expecting. I guess this is a good thing because now I can scratch the need for a new receiver off my list. I'm not saying that the Denon X4000 is bad receiver. It simply did not do wonders for my system.
The sub likely sounds worst due to placement, not the AVR. If one is expecting a huge difference in sound switching from one AVR to another he/she will be disappointed. Your speakers will benefit from the additional wattage allowing you to play them louder with less distortion, but at moderate to lower volumes the difference in sound is probably marginal at best.

What I like about the higher end Denon models is Dynamic EQ/Volume. 80% of the time I have mine set to the 'Midnight' setting which boosts vocals, tames volume peaks, and adds a bit of depth to the bass for a fuller sound. This was a big step up from the lower end Denon I upgraded from, the 1909. I would also think about other features you may need down the road...4K pass through, etc.

Not trying to sell you on the Denon. Based on what you're looking for, your money is probably best spent on another sub or upgrading your speakers.

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Last edited by Jahjd2000; 06-28-2014 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 06-28-2014, 04:00 PM
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80% of the time I have mine set to the 'Midnight' setting which boosts vocals, tames volume peaks, and adds a bit of depth to the bass for a fuller sound.
DynVol compresses sound. I have mine turned off all the time and only have DynEQ turned on.
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Old 06-28-2014, 04:08 PM
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DynVol compresses sound. I have mine turned off all the time and only have DynEQ turned on.
I like DynVol because it boosts the mid range making vocals more intelligible and it reduces the dynamic range. For critical listen I usually turn both off.

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Old 06-28-2014, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
So I decided that before I buy the Denon X4000 online I would pick it up at my local Best Buy to test it out. I sure am glad I took this approach. Hooked everything up yesterday moved one subwoofer to the back left corner of the room next to the MLP and the other stayed in the front right corner of the room. Ran through the complete calibration via Audyssey and was highly disappointed with the results afterwards. My speakers sounded the same and the subs sounded worse. I got no hard hitting bass next to the MLP like I was expecting. I guess this is a good thing because now I can scratch the need for a new receiver off my list. I'm not saying that the Denon X4000 is bad receiver. It simply did not do wonders for my system.
How did you have your subs hooked up to the x4000? I assume each of the x4000 sub out to Rythmik LFEs in? Did you use gain match technique to gain match your subs? Did you bump up both subs channels about 3-6db, turned DynEQ on and DynVol off, set speakers to small with 80hz crossover or so, set bass as LFE with the default 120hz after auto calibration? It's hard to believe the x4000 does not improve over your old Denon 1713.
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Old 06-28-2014, 04:15 PM
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I like DynVol because it boosts the mid range making vocals more intelligible and it reduces the dynamic range. For critical listen I usually turn both off.
You can always boost your center channel up and leave DynVol off. I know it is personal preference but just want you to understand that DynVol compresses sound. DynEQ boosts bass and surrounds based on your MV level below zero.
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Old 06-28-2014, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
How did you have your subs hooked up to the x4000? I assume each of the x4000 sub out to Rythmik LFEs in? Did you use gain match technique to gain match your subs? Did you bump up both subs channels about 3-6db, turned DynEQ on and DynVol off, set speakers to small with 80hz crossover or so, set bass as LFE with the default 120hz after auto calibration? It's hard to believe the x4000 does not improve over your old Denon 1713.
I did everything you stated above. Looks like the b-stock FV15HP is gone. I'll have to wait until another one pops up.
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Old 06-28-2014, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
Yep. I have an open floorplan so the sub is going to have to pressurize a lot of air. I wanted to go for something much more modest, like the LV12R, but finally decided in my space it was unlikely to be sufficient. Of course sufficient is relative, I'm sure lots of folks would want at least two subs in my space...
You're in for a real treat. You will probably freak out once you take delivery at the sheer size of the package. It's a monster, but has finesse. Post pics once you get it.
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Old 06-28-2014, 05:20 PM
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I did everything you stated above. Looks like the b-stock FV15HP is gone. I'll have to wait until another one pops up.
Sorry, I nabbed the b-stock. I'd been on the fence, and the discount was enough to push me over it.

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You're in for a real treat. You will probably freak out once you take delivery at the sheer size of the package. It's a monster, but has finesse. Post pics once you get it.
Yeah, 140 pounds shipping weight!
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Old 06-28-2014, 05:34 PM
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Sorry, I nabbed the b-stock. I'd been on the fence, and the discount was enough to push me over it.



Yeah, 140 pounds shipping weight!
It was you!!!! Lol that's funny. I already have two so I can't possibly be mad. Another one will pop up eventually.
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Old 06-28-2014, 06:08 PM
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Not sure if this was asked before, in the dual subwoofer system, how does the servo control 2 subwoofers, are there 2 servos to react to each subwoofers or its assumed that both woofers would behave the same 2 way ?
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Old 06-28-2014, 07:02 PM
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The HX800XLR3 amp has two separate amplifier modules (400 watts each). Each amplifier module has its own servo module as well.

Best Regards,

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Old 06-28-2014, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Enrico, how clean, as far as THD %, do you think a pair of F12's would play a 16 Hz tone at 90 dB in room? If this is ones goal for a dual sealed sub setup, what would your recommendation be? Looking for seamless integration with main speakers i.e. unable to detect that separate subs are playing on classical music.
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OK. I did the test and I got 90dB with the volume set on the AVR at -23dB. My system is calibrated at 75dB but I run my subwoofers +6dB hot. Of course at 16Hz my windows were shaking but it was very clean. My room is about 2700 cf and very well treated acoustically.
Thanks you two very much, you have sealed the deal on me getting a Rythmik sub. This was the information I was looking for. My room is smaller and sealed so me organ stuff should sound/feel nice.


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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Guys,

Count me in as a happy owner of a Rythmik sub. Just took delivery of an F12G.

Would like to ask/know how many out there are F12G owners? Set-up was wrong and will have to re-run Audyssey based on laulau's excellent write-up on initial settings at the amp.

Thanks laulau
I wish more F12g onwers were here. I think they hang out in another forum. I would love to get a F12g but my first step is going to be used so I will be waiting a long time for one to be for sale in my part of Canada.
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Old 06-29-2014, 01:39 AM
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Hi laulau,

Thanks for this, it's greatly appreciated. It should be included as a sticky.

@steveting99 & @niccolo ;

I've updated the document with the AVS hyperlinks repaired, I hadn't realized the recent forum upgrades had broken the links. Glad you're finding it helpful.
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Old 06-29-2014, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Hi laulau,

Thanks for this, it's greatly appreciated. It should be included as a sticky.

Would like some clarification under item 2. Recommended initial setup when using an AVR. Your write-up mentions that for sealed subs the extension should be set to mid damping before running the room EQ.

In the handout from Brian, he recommends low damping.

I can only assume that Brian's rec is more correct as one can go up through mid to high damping after room EQ.
Mid gives a steeper rolloff than high. That makes it easier for auto-EQ to recognize the low frequency limits of the sub, so it stops boosting at the appropriate frequency. Boosting below the limit can chew up tons of power and hurt the sound. Audyssey is inconsistent about automatically detecting the limit on high, and it's hard to tell when it screws this up. I think Audyssey looks for the -6db point prior to EQ, or something like that. So, that's why Brian recommends running Audyssey at medium, even if you intend to run on high.

When using more sophisticated (less automated) EQ software, you can manually set the low frequency limit. In that case, it's fine to use the setting during EQ that you're actually going to run it at.

Aside from auto-EQ, high gives a slower rolloff, more coherent phase, and less ringing, but it is the least efficient. Low gives a steep rolloff, is much more power efficient, and uses up less driver extension per db of volume. Mid is in-between.

If you have a lot of power relative to your room size, I think high sounds best. If you need more clean power/headroom going to mid/low and/or increasing the high-pass frequency may be best for you. If you need more power, but really want that high setting, try corner loading, near-field placement, and/or adding more subs.
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Old 06-29-2014, 09:52 AM
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@steveting99 & @niccolo ;

I've updated the document with the AVS hyperlinks repaired, I hadn't realized the recent forum upgrades had broken the links. Glad you're finding it helpful.
Laulau, thanks for providing and maintaining this document. I'm about to order my second E15HP so I'll try this procedure.

As an aside, howzit! I grew up on Oahu too. Moved to San Diego for college and then work. I noticed in your signature that you have high end gear...shipping must have been a small fortune!

Sharp LC70SQ15U
Denon 4311ci
Ascend Acoustics Towers (NrT)
Ascend Horizon Center (NrT)
Definitive Technology Surrounds BP1.2X
Rythmik E15HP
Epik Empire
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Old 06-29-2014, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post
Laulau, thanks for providing and maintaining this document. I'm about to order my second E15HP so I'll try this procedure.

As an aside, howzit! I grew up on Oahu too. Moved to San Diego for college and then work. I noticed in your signature that you have high end gear...shipping must have been a small fortune!
Howzit bruddah! Yup, I try to buy as much as I can from Amazon and Crutchfield who can ship free to Hawaii, but sometimes you just gotta eat the "Paradise Tax". The shipping charges on my speakers alone would've paid for a respectable 5.0 system (full disclosure: I opted for the more expensive FEDEX gorillas vs. the cheaper freight shipping gorillas). The shipping on my Rythmiks was actually pretty reasonable, IMO, as Brian explored numerous options to find the best value for me...one of the many reasons why I'm a long-time Rythmik fan.
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