Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 540 - AVS Forum
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post #16171 of 16870 Old 06-29-2014, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Hi laulau,

Thanks for this, it's greatly appreciated. It should be included as a sticky.

Would like some clarification under item 2. Recommended initial setup when using an AVR. Your write-up mentions that for sealed subs the extension should be set to mid damping before running the room EQ.

In the handout from Brian, he recommends low damping.

I can only assume that Brian's rec is more correct as one can go up through mid to high damping after room EQ.
Mid gives a steeper rolloff than high. That makes it easier for auto-EQ to recognize the low frequency limits of the sub, so it stops boosting at the appropriate frequency. Boosting below the limit can chew up tons of power and hurt the sound. Audyssey is inconsistent about automatically detecting the limit on high, and it's hard to tell when it screws this up. I think Audyssey looks for the -6db point prior to EQ, or something like that. So, that's why Brian recommends running Audyssey at medium, even if you intend to run on high.

When using more sophisticated (less automated) EQ software, you can manually set the low frequency limit. In that case, it's fine to use the setting during EQ that you're actually going to run it at.

Aside from auto-EQ, high gives a slower rolloff, more coherent phase, and less ringing, but it is the least efficient. Low gives a steep rolloff, is much more power efficient, and uses up less driver extension per db of volume. Mid is in-between.

If you have a lot of power relative to your room size, I think high sounds best. If you need more clean power/headroom going to mid/low and/or increasing the high-pass frequency may be best for you. If you need more power, but really want that high setting, try corner loading, near-field placement, and/or adding more subs.
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post #16172 of 16870 Old 06-29-2014, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by laulau View Post
@steveting99 & @niccolo ;

I've updated the document with the AVS hyperlinks repaired, I hadn't realized the recent forum upgrades had broken the links. Glad you're finding it helpful.
Laulau, thanks for providing and maintaining this document. I'm about to order my second E15HP so I'll try this procedure.

As an aside, howzit! I grew up on Oahu too. Moved to San Diego for college and then work. I noticed in your signature that you have high end gear...shipping must have been a small fortune!

Sharp LC70SQ15U
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post #16173 of 16870 Old 06-29-2014, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Jahjd2000 View Post
Laulau, thanks for providing and maintaining this document. I'm about to order my second E15HP so I'll try this procedure.

As an aside, howzit! I grew up on Oahu too. Moved to San Diego for college and then work. I noticed in your signature that you have high end gear...shipping must have been a small fortune!
Howzit bruddah! Yup, I try to buy as much as I can from Amazon and Crutchfield who can ship free to Hawaii, but sometimes you just gotta eat the "Paradise Tax". The shipping charges on my speakers alone would've paid for a respectable 5.0 system (full disclosure: I opted for the more expensive FEDEX gorillas vs. the cheaper freight shipping gorillas). The shipping on my Rythmiks was actually pretty reasonable, IMO, as Brian explored numerous options to find the best value for me...one of the many reasons why I'm a long-time Rythmik fan.
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post #16174 of 16870 Old 06-29-2014, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
I've got Focal 716V 2.5-way towers, matching center, and older JMLab Tantal 507 bookshelf rears, powered by a Denon X2000. I have a Rythmik FV15HP sub on the way. Any advice on where to set the crossover point between the speakers and sub?

I figured I'd start with the textbook 80hz "small" speaker setting, but obviously my speakers (even the rears) can go a lot lower than that. To be clear, this is for home theater. For music (I listen to a lot of classical, especially solo and chamber) I'm guessing I'll prefer to let the towers do their stereo thing via the "pure direct" mode and turn off the sub.

Of course there'll be some classical music (organ, and even orchestral) where I'll want the sub to supplement the towers, in a perfect world I'd have two crossover settings, maybe an 80hz one for home theater and a 40hz one for music where I want the sub, but I don't think the Denon will allow me to store two different crossover settings (by all means correct me if I'm mistaken).
Okay, so my towers are rated to 50 hz, my center is rated to 61 hz, and my surrounds are rated to 62 hz (which surprises me, they feel like they hit fairly low, in a large space without corner loading). So I'm thinking the standard 80 hz crossover to the sub is probably the best choice, though I could perhaps go as low as 60 hz to let the towers do their thing more on music.
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post #16175 of 16870 Old 06-29-2014, 07:24 PM
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^I would run the crossover as high as possible(80-100hz) before localization becomes a issue. I am betting the Rythmik sub will do a much better job then your mains handling any bass below 100hz.
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post #16176 of 16870 Old 06-29-2014, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Mid gives a steeper rolloff than high. That makes it easier for auto-EQ to recognize the low frequency limits of the sub, so it stops boosting at the appropriate frequency. Boosting below the limit can chew up tons of power and hurt the sound. Audyssey is inconsistent about automatically detecting the limit on high, and it's hard to tell when it screws this up. I think Audyssey looks for the -6db point prior to EQ, or something like that. So, that's why Brian recommends running Audyssey at medium, even if you intend to run on high.

When using more sophisticated (less automated) EQ software, you can manually set the low frequency limit. In that case, it's fine to use the setting during EQ that you're actually going to run it at.

Aside from auto-EQ, high gives a slower rolloff, more coherent phase, and less ringing, but it is the least efficient. Low gives a steep rolloff, is much more power efficient, and uses up less driver extension per db of volume. Mid is in-between.

If you have a lot of power relative to your room size, I think high sounds best. If you need more clean power/headroom going to mid/low and/or increasing the high-pass frequency may be best for you. If you need more power, but really want that high setting, try corner loading, near-field placement, and/or adding more subs.
rcohen,

I'm trying to look for the graphs in Rythmik which shows what you've described in words above. The only I've found on the website related to the damping is here: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers_info.html

It says that low damping is a bessel filter with Q=0.7. Mid damping acts as a Chebyshev filter has a +1.5dB boost and Q=1.07, while high damping is still a Chebyshev filter with 3dB boost and Q=1.33.

Recall from the Audyssey FAQ that the algorithm looks for the F3 of each speaker - including the sub. I can understand that with a step roll off, Audyssey correction (boost) will be less after the F3. So the intent is to trick Audyssey into thinking that Rythmik sub drops sharply at the frequency extension setting (say 14Hz) using the low damping switch. After running Audyssey, one can then change to high damping where the drop is more gradual.

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post #16177 of 16870 Old 06-29-2014, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
rcohen,

I'm trying to look for the graphs in Rythmik which shows what you've described in words above. The only I've found on the website related to the damping is here: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers_info.html

It says that low damping is a bessel filter with Q=0.7. Mid damping acts as a Chebyshev filter has a +1.5dB boost and Q=1.07, while high damping is still a Chebyshev filter with 3dB boost and Q=1.33.

Recall from the Audyssey FAQ that the algorithm looks for the F3 of each speaker - including the sub. I can understand that with a step roll off, Audyssey correction (boost) will be less after the F3. So the intent is to trick Audyssey into thinking that Rythmik sub drops sharply at the frequency extension setting (say 14Hz) using the low damping switch. After running Audyssey, one can then change to high damping where the drop is more gradual.
This one may be helpful:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/eq.html

Please correct me if I have made a mistake. For starters, it sounds like Audyssey looks for the -3db point, rather than -6db.
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Last edited by rcohen; 06-29-2014 at 08:31 PM.
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post #16178 of 16870 Old 06-29-2014, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
^I would run the crossover as high as possible(80-100hz) before localization becomes a issue. I am betting the Rythmik sub will do a much better job then your mains handling any bass below 100hz.
+1. My front towers were measured almost flat to 30hz, my center was almost flat to 60hz by REW and I have them Xovered at 80hz. Sub is doing a much better job at those frequencies and below. On top of that, one can bump up sub channel for more bass without increasing the overall volume.
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post #16179 of 16870 Old 06-29-2014, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
This one may be helpful:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/eq.html

Please correct me if I have made a mistake. For starters, it sounds like Audyssey looks for the -3db point, rather than -6db.
rcohen,

Thanks for the Rythmik web link - just what I was looking for! The low damp setting does have the steepest roll off (at all frequency extension settings) and this is what I'll be setting to before running Audyssey. The steeper roll off will tell Audyssey not to correct for below the F3 (-3dB) point of the sub. After the room correction has done its thing, I can then change the damping to mid or high to have a more gentle roll off in the room.

I've got all the info needed now to carry out the Audyssey setup.

After Audyssey, will most likely set it to high damping as this seems to be what most have done.

Edit: Audyssey measures down to the -3dB (F3) point of the speaker and applies its correction filters. Anything beyond the F3 isn't corrected by Audyssey.

Maranatz NR1504, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, LG LW6500, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 remote, KEF E301, MiniDSP(2x4), Rythmik F12G

Last edited by steveting99; 06-30-2014 at 01:39 AM. Reason: clarification on Audyssey
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post #16180 of 16870 Old 06-30-2014, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
rcohen,

Thanks for the Rythmik web link - just what I was looking for! The low damp setting does have the steepest roll off (at all frequency extension settings) and this is what I'll be setting to before running Audyssey. The steeper roll off will tell Audyssey not to correct for below the F3 (-3dB) point of the sub. After the room correction has done its thing, I can then change the damping to mid or high to have a more gentle roll off in the room.

I've got all the info needed now to carry out the Audyssey setup.

After Audyssey, will most likely set it to high damping as this seems to be what most have done.
I think Brian was suggesting that mid damp would be do the job, and to watch out for running Audyssey with high damp. I don't know that it's necessary to go all the way to low, but maybe sometimes. Perhaps it depends on room gain.
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post #16181 of 16870 Old 06-30-2014, 01:37 AM
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^rcohen,

I've got REW and UMIK-1 calibrated mic on hand. Will carry out a low frequency sweep with the setup in mind and check that Audyssey didn't do anything funny.

I've also got the MiniDSP in the LFE chain (currently on bypass) and will implement a low shelf filter with cuts to taste. This will be an interesting experiment.

Got tomorrow off from work so will be busy doing some sub tuning. A very happy Rythmik owner.

Maranatz NR1504, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, LG LW6500, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 remote, KEF E301, MiniDSP(2x4), Rythmik F12G
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post #16182 of 16870 Old 06-30-2014, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I think Brian was suggesting that mid damp would be do the job, and to watch out for running Audyssey with high damp. I don't know that it's necessary to go all the way to low, but maybe sometimes. Perhaps it depends on room gain.
I'm going to have to try out mid dampening. I've only tried low and high.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #16183 of 16870 Old 06-30-2014, 05:41 PM
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I've been playing around with the dampening and I found I like to set it on med or high when I listen to jazz. Sometimes I also raise the extension to 20hz or 28hz when I know the content won't dig deep. I originally only got the FV15HP for movies, but servo has been keeping the bass nice and tight even for music. Still running it in 1 port, I'll need to play around with 2 ports later.
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post #16184 of 16870 Old 06-30-2014, 07:03 PM
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I prefer 14hz hi damping. With that's being said, I will try running Audessey with lo then flip to hi afterward as it makes sense to set it to lo while running Audessey cal.
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post #16185 of 16870 Old 06-30-2014, 07:25 PM
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I prefer low in single port mode. The bass is more full body.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #16186 of 16870 Old 07-02-2014, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Yes, that's the easy way to do it and that's the way I did. Only trusting in my ears. After that I do a fine tuning playing my favorite jazz song, Bali Run by Fourplay and He Won't Go by Adele. The bass track in He Won't Go is so clear and detailed that this song is one of my favorites for bass tuning.
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Cancellation at the crossover point is the main reason having that phase knob is so important and why a lot of room correction programs may fail to provide good results. Away from the crossover frequency the speaker being rolled off has less influence on the other. At the crossover point the sound waves need to be aligned at the listening position or you'll get a "hole".

Due to the nature of crossovers plus typically different physical location of mains and sub(s), physical distance is unreliable. You can use several means to correct the phase at the crossover point. One of the easiest, if not most precise, is to use an SPL meter (or even your ears), play a test tone at the crossover frequency, and adjust the sub's phase for the loudest signal at the listening location.

How about putting the two sound sources out of phase and adjusting for minimum output at the x/o frequency, if not complete cancellation?
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post #16187 of 16870 Old 07-02-2014, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
^REW and a Mini DSP would be a much better approach. Not to mention a lot cheaper(200.00). The majority of folks that swear by audyssey do not measure the response(not implying everybody) and assume its doing such a great job. While some have had great results with it, there are many that have had the exact opposite experience. Spend some time researching the members that have "super systems" and you will see that audyssey is not relied upon to handle the sub EQ duties.You will find the Mini DSP 2x1, 10x10, Open Dirac, and Jriver popular choices.
An even better (though more costly at $1099 list) is the DSPeaker Anti-Mode DualCore 2.0. Read the great review of it by Robert Greene in The Absolute Sound last year. I guarantee you'll want one after reading the review.

Last edited by BDP24; 07-02-2014 at 11:07 PM.
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post #16188 of 16870 Old 07-02-2014, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
I did everything you stated above. Looks like the b-stock FV15HP is gone. I'll have to wait until another one pops up.

Don't hold your breathe!
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post #16189 of 16870 Old 07-02-2014, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
Thanks you two very much, you have sealed the deal on me getting a Rythmik sub. This was the information I was looking for. My room is smaller and sealed so me organ stuff should sound/feel nice.




I wish more F12g onwers were here. I think they hang out in another forum. I would love to get a F12g but my first step is going to be used so I will be waiting a long time for one to be for sale in my part of Canada.

Yeah, they're over in the GR Research (the "G' in F12G) AudioCircle Forum.
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post #16190 of 16870 Old 07-02-2014, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
I'm thinking about trying out the Anti-Mode 8033S-II. Seems like it's a solid EQ for one or multiple subs and it will automatically apply boosts at different frequencies if you desire. What do you guys think?

The 8033S-II is great for one sub. For a pair you'll want the DualCore 2.0. It is THE Room Correction and Subwoofer adjustment device (as well as many other uses. Great review of it in The Absolute Sound last year by REG) available today.
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post #16191 of 16870 Old 07-02-2014, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
How about putting the two sound sources out of phase and adjusting for minimum output at the x/o frequency, if not complete cancellation?
IME it is harder to hear the null in-room at low frequencies but of course that is an option. Usually the easiest way to do this is to swap the +/- leads at the speakers.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16192 of 16870 Old 07-02-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
IME it is harder to hear the null in-room at low frequencies but of course that is an option. Usually the easiest way to do this is to swap the +/- leads at the speakers.


Oops, I meant in opposite polarity, not out of phase. I learned that from Brian.
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post #16193 of 16870 Old 07-02-2014, 02:52 PM
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I understood. Plenty of folk, engineers included, use the terms interchangeably even though technically they are not.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16194 of 16870 Old 07-02-2014, 11:05 PM
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I understood. Plenty of folk, engineers included, use the terms interchangeably even though technically they are not.

True Don. I've been looking into the EAR-Yoshino electronics designed by the English engineer Tim de Paravicini, and the 324 Phono Amp has a front panel switch labeled "NORM" and "INVERT" "PHASE". Phase is frequency related, polarity is not, correct?
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post #16195 of 16870 Old 07-03-2014, 06:08 AM
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Yup. But I don't think anyone would misunderstand in this context.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16196 of 16870 Old 07-03-2014, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by B0dyK0unt View Post
tvuong, I wont keep asking setup questions in this thread, but I do have one clarification question for you based on your post. You suggested using the line in on the sub if my mains/center can handle below 100hz (which they can... per Aud XT32, at least down to about 40hz... I know my surrounds go to about 85 hz). I was under the impression that the sub falls off on the high end pretty quick above 80 hz using the line in input, but goes up to approx 200hz using the LFE input. I guess I am wondering why anyone would want to use the line in over the LFE input? ... I dont see any benefits on the surface (but I am first to admit, I am no expert, and have not researched). If I am crossing over around 80 (I am guessing 60-80 will be where I'll end up after I get the sub in place), am I not better letting the sub play up to 80-90hz (vs my PSB main towers and center?) Seems like using line in, if I cross at 80, and the crossover is gradual, and the FV15HP falls off sharply, then might I be missing some of the impact frequencies in the 80-90 range? It is probably no big deal, I guess I just dont understand benefits of using the line in input over LFE input. Thanks again.
I think line input has a cleaner sound vs LFE input (I could be wrong here) plus you can play with the phase knob only with the line input. With LFE input, you can change the sub distance on your avr which is similar to adjusting the phase on the sub. Steeper roll off from the sub at the Xover point is preferred if I read correctly somewhere. Perhaps Brian can chime in here to provide a better explanation about the benefit of using line in over LFE if Xover is at 80hz.
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post #16197 of 16870 Old 07-03-2014, 03:47 PM
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status report on new FV15HP

Finally got my new FV15HP after some snafus with UPS delivery the past two days.

Started with a sub crawl, using some Bach organ music with some passages on the lowest registers. I could hear some differences between various locations in the room, but not as much as I expected. Perhaps my choice of music wasn't optimal? Ended up selecting the location I thought I would ahead of time, between the right front tower and the center, a few feet off the right wall and a few inches off the back one (with the screen on it)

Then ran Audyssey. I had to lower the sub volume well below 50 percent (6 clicks below 50 percent, to be precise) to get the sub into the preferred Audyssey compensation range of -3 to -6 db. Was struck how quiet the sub sounded during Audyssey, and Audyssey had to re-run the sub calibration tone a few times. Set all speakers to small and all crossovers to 80 hz.

Once set up, put organ music back on again. Sounded reasonable but more modest bass relative to treble than I expected. But might be a function of the quality of the recording.

Put on Cosmos Blu ray with Neil deGrasse Tyson, which has a pretty intense LFE track. Sounds pretty good, but Tyson's very low voice sounds too artificially bassy. Reset crossovers for all speakers to 60 hz. Now sounds closer to normal, Tyson's voice still sounds slightly artificially bassy, but in a pleasing way. And the other low-frequency effects still sound fantastic.

That's where I'm at now. Any advice on where to go from here, or how to think about what I'm experiencing?

P.S. I underestimated how deep this thing would be! I factored in the height and width, but the depth really adds to the massiveness of this box in the room. Not that I'm complaining, since it sounds great...

Benq W1070 projector w/ Chief RSM mount with custom interface bracket
119" Da-Lite Cinema Contour with High-Contrast (gray) Da-Mat screen
Denon X2000 receiver fed by Panasonic DMP-BDT210 Bluray player
Focal Chorus 700-series towers and center, JMLab Tantal 500-series bookshelf rears
Rythmik FV15HP sub

Last edited by niccolo; 07-03-2014 at 03:51 PM.
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post #16198 of 16870 Old 07-03-2014, 03:56 PM
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Niccolo,

What's the level on the receiver for the subwoofer? I find myself Audyssey very conservative with bass levels so I run my subwoofers hot by 4 - 6dB more than what Audyssey set for it. If you are gonna increase the level for the subwoofer do it in the receiver, not with the subwoofer volume knob.

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post #16199 of 16870 Old 07-03-2014, 04:10 PM
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Niccolo,

What's the level on the receiver for the subwoofer? I find myself Audyssey very conservative with bass levels so I run my subwoofers hot by 4 - 6dB more than what Audyssey set for it. If you are gonna increase the level for the subwoofer do it in the receiver, not with the subwoofer volume knob.
Audyssey set the sub at -5 dB once I turned the sub volume down those six clicks lower than 50 percent to get the number into the -3 to -6 range (doesn't having my sub volume this low mean I'm not really taking advantage of the capabilities of the sub amp?). All my speakers have a similar negative compensation, which seems odd to me, i.e. I would have expected at least some to be at zero compensation, because compensation is relative.

So if I want to run the sub hot, I manually tweak the Audyssey settings? Out of curiosity, why the instruction to do so at the AVR and not sub? And I suppose precisely where the sub gets set is purely subjective, at least in the absence of an SPL meter?

Benq W1070 projector w/ Chief RSM mount with custom interface bracket
119" Da-Lite Cinema Contour with High-Contrast (gray) Da-Mat screen
Denon X2000 receiver fed by Panasonic DMP-BDT210 Bluray player
Focal Chorus 700-series towers and center, JMLab Tantal 500-series bookshelf rears
Rythmik FV15HP sub
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post #16200 of 16870 Old 07-03-2014, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
Audyssey set the sub at -5 dB once I turned the sub volume down those six clicks lower than 50 percent to get the number into the -3 to -6 range (doesn't having my sub volume this low mean I'm not really taking advantage of the capabilities of the sub amp?). All my speakers have a similar negative compensation, which seems odd to me, i.e. I would have expected at least some to be at zero compensation, because compensation is relative.

So if I want to run the sub hot, I manually tweak the Audyssey settings? Out of curiosity, why the instruction to do so at the AVR and not sub? And I suppose precisely where the sub gets set is purely subjective, at least in the absence of an SPL meter?
And one more question. My sub is about a 27-ft cable run from my AVR. If I don't run the wire strictly against the base of the wall, I could make a 25-ft cable work, or I could go for a 35-ft one. I'm leaning toward the former, I'm thinking the 25-ft is going to be preferable in terms of avoiding noise/hum. Though for what it's worth, I'm currently using a 50-ft unshielded standard RCA cable, and I don't detect any noise/hum in the sub feed. I'm planning to purchase this cable (http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-UL...+%2835+Feet%29), which the Rythmik folks recommended.
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Benq W1070 projector w/ Chief RSM mount with custom interface bracket
119" Da-Lite Cinema Contour with High-Contrast (gray) Da-Mat screen
Denon X2000 receiver fed by Panasonic DMP-BDT210 Bluray player
Focal Chorus 700-series towers and center, JMLab Tantal 500-series bookshelf rears
Rythmik FV15HP sub
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