Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 540 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #16171 of 27145 Old 06-30-2014, 02:37 AM
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^rcohen,

I've got REW and UMIK-1 calibrated mic on hand. Will carry out a low frequency sweep with the setup in mind and check that Audyssey didn't do anything funny.

I've also got the MiniDSP in the LFE chain (currently on bypass) and will implement a low shelf filter with cuts to taste. This will be an interesting experiment.

Got tomorrow off from work so will be busy doing some sub tuning. A very happy Rythmik owner.

Marantz SR-7009, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, aTV, Harmony Home Control remote, KEF E301+T101, MiniDSP (2x4)+(10x10HD)+(DDRC-88A), Emotiva 2xXPA-5 (Gen2), Rythmik 2xF12G+2xF8, HiMedia Q16, LG 55EC9300.
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post #16172 of 27145 Old 06-30-2014, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I think Brian was suggesting that mid damp would be do the job, and to watch out for running Audyssey with high damp. I don't know that it's necessary to go all the way to low, but maybe sometimes. Perhaps it depends on room gain.
I'm going to have to try out mid dampening. I've only tried low and high.

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post #16173 of 27145 Old 06-30-2014, 06:41 PM
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I've been playing around with the dampening and I found I like to set it on med or high when I listen to jazz. Sometimes I also raise the extension to 20hz or 28hz when I know the content won't dig deep. I originally only got the FV15HP for movies, but servo has been keeping the bass nice and tight even for music. Still running it in 1 port, I'll need to play around with 2 ports later.
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post #16174 of 27145 Old 06-30-2014, 08:03 PM
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I prefer 14hz hi damping. With that's being said, I will try running Audessey with lo then flip to hi afterward as it makes sense to set it to lo while running Audessey cal.
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post #16175 of 27145 Old 06-30-2014, 08:25 PM
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I prefer low in single port mode. The bass is more full body.

Display - LG 65EF9500
Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #16176 of 27145 Old 07-02-2014, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Yes, that's the easy way to do it and that's the way I did. Only trusting in my ears. After that I do a fine tuning playing my favorite jazz song, Bali Run by Fourplay and He Won't Go by Adele. The bass track in He Won't Go is so clear and detailed that this song is one of my favorites for bass tuning.
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Cancellation at the crossover point is the main reason having that phase knob is so important and why a lot of room correction programs may fail to provide good results. Away from the crossover frequency the speaker being rolled off has less influence on the other. At the crossover point the sound waves need to be aligned at the listening position or you'll get a "hole".

Due to the nature of crossovers plus typically different physical location of mains and sub(s), physical distance is unreliable. You can use several means to correct the phase at the crossover point. One of the easiest, if not most precise, is to use an SPL meter (or even your ears), play a test tone at the crossover frequency, and adjust the sub's phase for the loudest signal at the listening location.

How about putting the two sound sources out of phase and adjusting for minimum output at the x/o frequency, if not complete cancellation?
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post #16177 of 27145 Old 07-02-2014, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
^REW and a Mini DSP would be a much better approach. Not to mention a lot cheaper(200.00). The majority of folks that swear by audyssey do not measure the response(not implying everybody) and assume its doing such a great job. While some have had great results with it, there are many that have had the exact opposite experience. Spend some time researching the members that have "super systems" and you will see that audyssey is not relied upon to handle the sub EQ duties.You will find the Mini DSP 2x1, 10x10, Open Dirac, and Jriver popular choices.
An even better (though more costly at $1099 list) is the DSPeaker Anti-Mode DualCore 2.0. Read the great review of it by Robert Greene in The Absolute Sound last year. I guarantee you'll want one after reading the review.

Last edited by BDP24; 07-03-2014 at 12:07 AM.
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post #16178 of 27145 Old 07-02-2014, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
I did everything you stated above. Looks like the b-stock FV15HP is gone. I'll have to wait until another one pops up.

Don't hold your breathe!
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post #16179 of 27145 Old 07-02-2014, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
Thanks you two very much, you have sealed the deal on me getting a Rythmik sub. This was the information I was looking for. My room is smaller and sealed so me organ stuff should sound/feel nice.




I wish more F12g onwers were here. I think they hang out in another forum. I would love to get a F12g but my first step is going to be used so I will be waiting a long time for one to be for sale in my part of Canada.

Yeah, they're over in the GR Research (the "G' in F12G) AudioCircle Forum.
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post #16180 of 27145 Old 07-02-2014, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
I'm thinking about trying out the Anti-Mode 8033S-II. Seems like it's a solid EQ for one or multiple subs and it will automatically apply boosts at different frequencies if you desire. What do you guys think?

The 8033S-II is great for one sub. For a pair you'll want the DualCore 2.0. It is THE Room Correction and Subwoofer adjustment device (as well as many other uses. Great review of it in The Absolute Sound last year by REG) available today.
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post #16181 of 27145 Old 07-02-2014, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
How about putting the two sound sources out of phase and adjusting for minimum output at the x/o frequency, if not complete cancellation?
IME it is harder to hear the null in-room at low frequencies but of course that is an option. Usually the easiest way to do this is to swap the +/- leads at the speakers.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16182 of 27145 Old 07-02-2014, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
IME it is harder to hear the null in-room at low frequencies but of course that is an option. Usually the easiest way to do this is to swap the +/- leads at the speakers.


Oops, I meant in opposite polarity, not out of phase. I learned that from Brian.
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post #16183 of 27145 Old 07-02-2014, 03:52 PM
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I understood. Plenty of folk, engineers included, use the terms interchangeably even though technically they are not.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16184 of 27145 Old 07-03-2014, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
I understood. Plenty of folk, engineers included, use the terms interchangeably even though technically they are not.

True Don. I've been looking into the EAR-Yoshino electronics designed by the English engineer Tim de Paravicini, and the 324 Phono Amp has a front panel switch labeled "NORM" and "INVERT" "PHASE". Phase is frequency related, polarity is not, correct?
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post #16185 of 27145 Old 07-03-2014, 07:08 AM
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Yup. But I don't think anyone would misunderstand in this context.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16186 of 27145 Old 07-03-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by B0dyK0unt View Post
tvuong, I wont keep asking setup questions in this thread, but I do have one clarification question for you based on your post. You suggested using the line in on the sub if my mains/center can handle below 100hz (which they can... per Aud XT32, at least down to about 40hz... I know my surrounds go to about 85 hz). I was under the impression that the sub falls off on the high end pretty quick above 80 hz using the line in input, but goes up to approx 200hz using the LFE input. I guess I am wondering why anyone would want to use the line in over the LFE input? ... I dont see any benefits on the surface (but I am first to admit, I am no expert, and have not researched). If I am crossing over around 80 (I am guessing 60-80 will be where I'll end up after I get the sub in place), am I not better letting the sub play up to 80-90hz (vs my PSB main towers and center?) Seems like using line in, if I cross at 80, and the crossover is gradual, and the FV15HP falls off sharply, then might I be missing some of the impact frequencies in the 80-90 range? It is probably no big deal, I guess I just dont understand benefits of using the line in input over LFE input. Thanks again.
I think line input has a cleaner sound vs LFE input (I could be wrong here) plus you can play with the phase knob only with the line input. With LFE input, you can change the sub distance on your avr which is similar to adjusting the phase on the sub. Steeper roll off from the sub at the Xover point is preferred if I read correctly somewhere. Perhaps Brian can chime in here to provide a better explanation about the benefit of using line in over LFE if Xover is at 80hz.
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post #16187 of 27145 Old 07-03-2014, 04:47 PM
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status report on new FV15HP

Finally got my new FV15HP after some snafus with UPS delivery the past two days.

Started with a sub crawl, using some Bach organ music with some passages on the lowest registers. I could hear some differences between various locations in the room, but not as much as I expected. Perhaps my choice of music wasn't optimal? Ended up selecting the location I thought I would ahead of time, between the right front tower and the center, a few feet off the right wall and a few inches off the back one (with the screen on it)

Then ran Audyssey. I had to lower the sub volume well below 50 percent (6 clicks below 50 percent, to be precise) to get the sub into the preferred Audyssey compensation range of -3 to -6 db. Was struck how quiet the sub sounded during Audyssey, and Audyssey had to re-run the sub calibration tone a few times. Set all speakers to small and all crossovers to 80 hz.

Once set up, put organ music back on again. Sounded reasonable but more modest bass relative to treble than I expected. But might be a function of the quality of the recording.

Put on Cosmos Blu ray with Neil deGrasse Tyson, which has a pretty intense LFE track. Sounds pretty good, but Tyson's very low voice sounds too artificially bassy. Reset crossovers for all speakers to 60 hz. Now sounds closer to normal, Tyson's voice still sounds slightly artificially bassy, but in a pleasing way. And the other low-frequency effects still sound fantastic.

That's where I'm at now. Any advice on where to go from here, or how to think about what I'm experiencing?

P.S. I underestimated how deep this thing would be! I factored in the height and width, but the depth really adds to the massiveness of this box in the room. Not that I'm complaining, since it sounds great...

Benq W1070 projector w/ Chief RSM mount with custom interface bracket
119" Da-Lite Cinema Contour with High-Contrast (gray) Da-Mat screen
Denon X2000 receiver fed by Panasonic DMP-BDT210 Bluray player
Focal Chorus 700-series towers and center, JMLab Tantal 500-series bookshelf rears
Rythmik FV15HP sub

Last edited by niccolo; 07-03-2014 at 04:51 PM.
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post #16188 of 27145 Old 07-03-2014, 04:56 PM
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Niccolo,

What's the level on the receiver for the subwoofer? I find myself Audyssey very conservative with bass levels so I run my subwoofers hot by 4 - 6dB more than what Audyssey set for it. If you are gonna increase the level for the subwoofer do it in the receiver, not with the subwoofer volume knob.



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post #16189 of 27145 Old 07-03-2014, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Niccolo,

What's the level on the receiver for the subwoofer? I find myself Audyssey very conservative with bass levels so I run my subwoofers hot by 4 - 6dB more than what Audyssey set for it. If you are gonna increase the level for the subwoofer do it in the receiver, not with the subwoofer volume knob.
Audyssey set the sub at -5 dB once I turned the sub volume down those six clicks lower than 50 percent to get the number into the -3 to -6 range (doesn't having my sub volume this low mean I'm not really taking advantage of the capabilities of the sub amp?). All my speakers have a similar negative compensation, which seems odd to me, i.e. I would have expected at least some to be at zero compensation, because compensation is relative.

So if I want to run the sub hot, I manually tweak the Audyssey settings? Out of curiosity, why the instruction to do so at the AVR and not sub? And I suppose precisely where the sub gets set is purely subjective, at least in the absence of an SPL meter?

Benq W1070 projector w/ Chief RSM mount with custom interface bracket
119" Da-Lite Cinema Contour with High-Contrast (gray) Da-Mat screen
Denon X2000 receiver fed by Panasonic DMP-BDT210 Bluray player
Focal Chorus 700-series towers and center, JMLab Tantal 500-series bookshelf rears
Rythmik FV15HP sub
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post #16190 of 27145 Old 07-03-2014, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
Audyssey set the sub at -5 dB once I turned the sub volume down those six clicks lower than 50 percent to get the number into the -3 to -6 range (doesn't having my sub volume this low mean I'm not really taking advantage of the capabilities of the sub amp?). All my speakers have a similar negative compensation, which seems odd to me, i.e. I would have expected at least some to be at zero compensation, because compensation is relative.

So if I want to run the sub hot, I manually tweak the Audyssey settings? Out of curiosity, why the instruction to do so at the AVR and not sub? And I suppose precisely where the sub gets set is purely subjective, at least in the absence of an SPL meter?
And one more question. My sub is about a 27-ft cable run from my AVR. If I don't run the wire strictly against the base of the wall, I could make a 25-ft cable work, or I could go for a 35-ft one. I'm leaning toward the former, I'm thinking the 25-ft is going to be preferable in terms of avoiding noise/hum. Though for what it's worth, I'm currently using a 50-ft unshielded standard RCA cable, and I don't detect any noise/hum in the sub feed. I'm planning to purchase this cable (http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-UL...+%2835+Feet%29), which the Rythmik folks recommended.
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Benq W1070 projector w/ Chief RSM mount with custom interface bracket
119" Da-Lite Cinema Contour with High-Contrast (gray) Da-Mat screen
Denon X2000 receiver fed by Panasonic DMP-BDT210 Bluray player
Focal Chorus 700-series towers and center, JMLab Tantal 500-series bookshelf rears
Rythmik FV15HP sub
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post #16191 of 27145 Old 07-03-2014, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
And one more question. My sub is about a 27-ft cable run from my AVR. If I don't run the wire strictly against the base of the wall, I could make a 25-ft cable work, or I could go for a 35-ft one. I'm leaning toward the former, I'm thinking the 25-ft is going to be preferable in terms of avoiding noise/hum. Though for what it's worth, I'm currently using a 50-ft unshielded standard RCA cable, and I don't detect any noise/hum in the sub feed. I'm planning to purchase this cable (http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-UL...+%2835+Feet%29), which the Rythmik folks recommended.
35ft
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post #16192 of 27145 Old 07-03-2014, 07:19 PM
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35ft
Because hum is not actually a problem and it'll give me more placement flexibility?
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post #16193 of 27145 Old 07-03-2014, 07:35 PM
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Because hum is not actually a problem and it'll give me more placement flexibility?
Exactly.
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post #16194 of 27145 Old 07-03-2014, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
Audyssey set the sub at -5 dB once I turned the sub volume down those six clicks lower than 50 percent to get the number into the -3 to -6 range (doesn't having my sub volume this low mean I'm not really taking advantage of the capabilities of the sub amp?). All my speakers have a similar negative compensation, which seems odd to me, i.e. I would have expected at least some to be at zero compensation, because compensation is relative.

So if I want to run the sub hot, I manually tweak the Audyssey settings? Out of curiosity, why the instruction to do so at the AVR and not sub? And I suppose precisely where the sub gets set is purely subjective, at least in the absence of an SPL meter?
niccolo,

AVS member Keith Barnes has written a very informative Audyssey FAQ here: "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779), since your Denon receiver has XT, try the close mic measurement technique and check if the bass improves.

As far as adjusting the bass levels to taste, best to do this on the AVR than on the sub. The reason being is that it makes it easier to return to a known starting point if you decide to go back or change to another value. Adjusting the trims does not in any way invalidate the calibration but it may affect the way Audyssey Dynamic EQ works.

You might want to check the crossover frequency splice done on the AVR and see if the transition between the speakers and sub is smooth. The technique to do this is called the sub-distance tweak and unfortunately it will require measurement gear like REW (free download) + USB mic (preferably the calibrated model).

The good thing about measurement is identifying problems and finding ways to deal with it - up to a point where one can just enjoy the sound reproduction as best as possible in the room.

Marantz SR-7009, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, aTV, Harmony Home Control remote, KEF E301+T101, MiniDSP (2x4)+(10x10HD)+(DDRC-88A), Emotiva 2xXPA-5 (Gen2), Rythmik 2xF12G+2xF8, HiMedia Q16, LG 55EC9300.

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post #16195 of 27145 Old 07-03-2014, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
Finally got my new FV15HP after some snafus with UPS delivery the past two days.

Started with a sub crawl, using some Bach organ music with some passages on the lowest registers. I could hear some differences between various locations in the room, but not as much as I expected. Perhaps my choice of music wasn't optimal? Ended up selecting the location I thought I would ahead of time, between the right front tower and the center, a few feet off the right wall and a few inches off the back one (with the screen on it)

Then ran Audyssey. I had to lower the sub volume well below 50 percent (6 clicks below 50 percent, to be precise) to get the sub into the preferred Audyssey compensation range of -3 to -6 db. Was struck how quiet the sub sounded during Audyssey, and Audyssey had to re-run the sub calibration tone a few times. Set all speakers to small and all crossovers to 80 hz.

Once set up, put organ music back on again. Sounded reasonable but more modest bass relative to treble than I expected. But might be a function of the quality of the recording.

Put on Cosmos Blu ray with Neil deGrasse Tyson, which has a pretty intense LFE track. Sounds pretty good, but Tyson's very low voice sounds too artificially bassy. Reset crossovers for all speakers to 60 hz. Now sounds closer to normal, Tyson's voice still sounds slightly artificially bassy, but in a pleasing way. And the other low-frequency effects still sound fantastic.

That's where I'm at now. Any advice on where to go from here, or how to think about what I'm experiencing?

P.S. I underestimated how deep this thing would be! I factored in the height and width, but the depth really adds to the massiveness of this box in the room. Not that I'm complaining, since it sounds great...
One trick that may help if make voices are too bassy, but you want more bass from music:
Use a lower crossover point for your center channel, and a higher crossover point for your mains. Then, you can try turning up your sub a few db.

This way, the sub will reinforce bass more with LR than C.

Another option if you have per speaker EQ or tone controls: give the center speaker a bit less bass than LR. For the most part, you want the center to be consistent with LR, but tweaking the bass a but doesn't hurt that much at all.

Also, use REW to take some measurements so you can see what you're dealing with.
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post #16196 of 27145 Old 07-04-2014, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
And one more question. My sub is about a 27-ft cable run from my AVR. If I don't run the wire strictly against the base of the wall, I could make a 25-ft cable work, or I could go for a 35-ft one. I'm leaning toward the former, I'm thinking the 25-ft is going to be preferable in terms of avoiding noise/hum. Though for what it's worth, I'm currently using a 50-ft unshielded standard RCA cable, and I don't detect any noise/hum in the sub feed. I'm planning to purchase this cable (http://www.amazon.com/Mediabridge-UL...+%2835+Feet%29), which the Rythmik folks recommended.
I use the Dayton Audio Sub-Link with my FV15HP and it works well. No issues with Wi-Fi interference. Audyssey is able to correct for the added delay from the wireless kits. I read JT used the Rocketfish wireless subwoofer kit version and it worked well for him. Outlaw Audio also makes a wireless kit that seems to have better specs but it cost more.

It's pretty nice not having to run a wire. I was a little paranoid it would sound worst than a cable so I got a nice LC-1 subwoofer cable from Blue Jeans Cable; I can't tell much of a difference and stuck with the wireless. Another advantage of wireless is you avoid ground loop hum issues.
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post #16197 of 27145 Old 07-04-2014, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by docbrazen View Post
I use the Dayton Audio Sub-Link with my FV15HP and it works well. No issues with Wi-Fi interference. Audyssey is able to correct for the added delay from the wireless kits. I read JT used the Rocketfish wireless subwoofer kit version and it worked well for him. Outlaw Audio also makes a wireless kit that seems to have better specs but it cost more.

It's pretty nice not having to run a wire. I was a little paranoid it would sound worst than a cable so I got a nice LC-1 subwoofer cable from Blue Jeans Cable; I can't tell much of a difference and stuck with the wireless. Another advantage of wireless is you avoid ground loop hum issues.
This is true. Back when I had a single FV I used the RocketFish kit from Best Buy and it worked like a charm. Basshead uses it too with great results. I think it's only $60 bucks. I would go this route first because if it ends up not working out for you it can easily be returned within 30 days.
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Display - LG 65EF9500
Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #16198 of 27145 Old 07-04-2014, 05:46 PM
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Appreciate all the feedback!

Wireless to feed the sub is appealing, though I'm a perfectionist so my gut is to err on the side of wired (which of course comes with its own potential imperfections, i.e. hum). My speakers are wired so not a big deal to run a wire to the sub.

To address the bassiness of voices, I might experiment with lowering the crossover for just the center channel but not the L/R towers, but since voices sometimes pan from one side to another, that may be suboptimal (I don't think I have speaker EQ in the X2000, other than setting the crossover).

For now, having the crossover set at 60 hz seems to help a lot and still allow the sub reasonable bandwidth, any strong reasons not to stick with that?

I've got the sub boosted 4 db over Audyssey recommended settings for now. I still feel like I'm massively underutilizing my sub, but that may be a function of the content I'm feeding it. By the time the sub is cranking out serious bass, the treble is unpleasantly loud. The sub does a great job on the new Cosmos Blu rays with lots of LFE, but on organ music, with the crossover at 60 hz, it barely seems involved, and the bass seems recessed. But that might be a function of the particular recording.

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post #16199 of 27145 Old 07-04-2014, 08:22 PM
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^Guys,

Brian has written in post # 14,148 about wireless connection and some caution is needed in the setup: Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread

niccolo,
If you've got a hum issue between the AVR and Rythmik sub, the following might help address it: http://www.amazon.com/ART-DTI-Hum-El...2PQ0CV1VB2MYQQ

If you still have an issue with bass response, the low frequency room measurement is probably the next step to take.

Marantz SR-7009, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, aTV, Harmony Home Control remote, KEF E301+T101, MiniDSP (2x4)+(10x10HD)+(DDRC-88A), Emotiva 2xXPA-5 (Gen2), Rythmik 2xF12G+2xF8, HiMedia Q16, LG 55EC9300.
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post #16200 of 27145 Old 07-05-2014, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
Appreciate all the feedback!

Wireless to feed the sub is appealing, though I'm a perfectionist so my gut is to err on the side of wired (which of course comes with its own potential imperfections, i.e. hum). My speakers are wired so not a big deal to run a wire to the sub.

To address the bassiness of voices, I might experiment with lowering the crossover for just the center channel but not the L/R towers, but since voices sometimes pan from one side to another, that may be suboptimal (I don't think I have speaker EQ in the X2000, other than setting the crossover).

For now, having the crossover set at 60 hz seems to help a lot and still allow the sub reasonable bandwidth, any strong reasons not to stick with that?

I've got the sub boosted 4 db over Audyssey recommended settings for now. I still feel like I'm massively underutilizing my sub, but that may be a function of the content I'm feeding it. By the time the sub is cranking out serious bass, the treble is unpleasantly loud. The sub does a great job on the new Cosmos Blu rays with lots of LFE, but on organ music, with the crossover at 60 hz, it barely seems involved, and the bass seems recessed. But that might be a function of the particular recording.
The only reason for a higher crossover would be if you would prefer to have the sub handling those frequencies, for more impact. You might as well try setting your LR crossover to 100-120hz, to see if you like what you hear, and whether that's worth a subtle change in sub-bass when panning. It's not a question of right or wrong, better or worse, just your preference.

Last edited by rcohen; 07-05-2014 at 08:10 AM.
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