Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 542 - AVS Forum
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post #16231 of 16728 Old 07-06-2014, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Danne2 View Post
To put it short, I have four F12's in my HT, (almost) everything is good with that setup, and I get very deep response from the subs in that room, have very good output down to at least 10Hz (concrete cellar with heavy acoustic treatment) with support at about 20Hz from the lowest room resonance.

Advice with motivation and experiences is appreciated.
Danne2,

At those mid-teen to single digit frequencies, you'll feel the SPL more than hear it. Suggest going with tactile transducers. The following thread might interest you: A comparison of three tactile transducers - ButtKicker Mini LFE vs. Clark Synthesis TST209 vs. Aura Bass Shaker Pro

I've never setup these transducers before, so best to ask questions in that thread.

Since you've got 4 Rythmik subs and assuming you've got a rectangular room, one concept from Germany might interest you. It's called double bass array (DBA) or if you can put enough sound absorption on the back wall, the single bass array (SBA) is another option. Read through the following thread for inspiration: Double Bass Array (DBA) - The modern bass concept!

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post #16232 of 16728 Old 07-06-2014, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
The rest of my system is run through a high-quality surge protector/conditioner, but my equipment rack is 30ft from my sub.
There shouldn't be any need to plug subs into a power conditioner, and many of them will choke off the current. I have my subs plugged right into wall outlets.

That said, maybe someone can recommend a surge protector that's good for subs and reasonably priced. (I've often wondered about that, myself.)
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post #16233 of 16728 Old 07-06-2014, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
There shouldn't be any need to plug subs into a power conditioner, and many of them will choke off the current. I have my subs plugged right into wall outlets.

That said, maybe someone can recommend a surge protector that's good for subs and reasonably priced. (I've often wondered about that, myself.)
I have a Panamax (http://www.panamax.com/Products/A-V-...nts/MR4300.php) that I received as a warranty replacement for an older model that I got on great sale. I'm not too concerned about surges and not convinced power conditioning is necessary, mostly it's a convenient way to have a single power switch for my system, though I suppose the surge protection is a nice plus. I think it should have plenty of capacity to handle the sub (but by all means correct me if I'm mistaken about that), so the only question is whether to run a higher-gauge power cord 30-ft to the sub.

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post #16234 of 16728 Old 07-06-2014, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
I have a Panamax (http://www.panamax.com/Products/A-V-...nts/MR4300.php) that I received as a warranty replacement for an older model that I got on great sale. I'm not too concerned about surges and not convinced power conditioning is necessary, mostly it's a convenient way to have a single power switch for my system, though I suppose the surge protection is a nice plus. I think it should have plenty of capacity to handle the sub (but by all means correct me if I'm mistaken about that), so the only question is whether to run a higher-gauge power cord 30-ft to the sub.
It's hard to say on whether it would choke off power from a sub. I'm not sure if the specs would tell ya.

The subs turn themselves on and off automatically, so I can't see how convenience would be a concern.

I would say that it's desirable to uses separate outlets (and maybe circuits) for subs, unless you're getting ground loops.

Power conditioners and voltage regulates will sometimes help sound and/or longevity on devices with cheap power supplies, like wall wart transformers. I've never heard of anyone saying it helped with a sub.
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post #16235 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
If you don't mind building, some Rhythmik sealed kits could be good.
How about a bunch of F15HPs?

Other stuff that might interest you. Search on avs for details:
Crowson Actuators
Suspended wood floor
(One of these are probably what is needed for good tactile impact in a concrete cellar.)
Thanks. I will look into the Crowson Actuators. Have a wood floor now, and get tactile feel from that.
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post #16236 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Danne2,

At those mid-teen to single digit frequencies, you'll feel the SPL more than hear it. Suggest going with tactile transducers. The following thread might interest you: A comparison of three tactile transducers - ButtKicker Mini LFE vs. Clark Synthesis TST209 vs. Aura Bass Shaker Pro

I've never setup these transducers before, so best to ask questions in that thread.

Since you've got 4 Rythmik subs and assuming you've got a rectangular room, one concept from Germany might interest you. It's called double bass array (DBA) or if you can put enough sound absorption on the back wall, the single bass array (SBA) is another option. Read through the following thread for inspiration: Double Bass Array (DBA) - The modern bass concept!
Thanks. I have a Reckhorn BS-200 buttkicker under my main recliner, but it gives another feeling than subs, so I have a LPF 48db/oct at 30Hz on that one, to avoid output with music.
Buttkicker kicks my ass, I want subs to give me more of the "under water pressure feeling".

I will look into the SBA and DBA. I have a lot of bass membrane absorbers in both ends of the room.
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post #16237 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Danne2 View Post
Thanks. I will look into the Crowson Actuators. Have a wood floor now, and get tactile feel from that.
I haven't tried them, but some people swear by them as a supplement to subs. Apparently, they can be tuned to convincingly feel like tactile bass, rather than a gimmicky special effect.

The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread.
https://crowsontech.com/go/crowsonte...opDefault.aspx
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post #16238 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
There shouldn't be any need to plug subs into a power conditioner, and many of them will choke off the current. I have my subs plugged right into wall outlets.

That said, maybe someone can recommend a surge protector that's good for subs and reasonably priced. (I've often wondered about that, myself.)

Surge protector: Panamax MD2-RCA is for subwoofers

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post #16239 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 07:17 AM
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You guys have me thinking now. Am I handicapping my subs by having them plugged into a surge protector? I'm using the below surge protector and have a lot of stuff plugged into it. I mean the subs sound great to me just curious though.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/insignia...ctor&cp=1&lp=2

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post #16240 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 07:44 AM
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You should have the sub(s) plugged into its own outlet and its own surge protector....

Spoke directly with Rythmik for the answer.

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(1) Denon 2313CI avr

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post #16241 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 07:44 AM
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You are not handicapping anything...if the surge can not keep up it will trip. I run all 3 of my subs on individual rat shack surge strips with no issuse even at spirited levels(128db).
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post #16242 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
You are not handicapping anything...if the surge can not keep up it will trip. I run all 3 of my subs on individual rat shack surge strips with no issuse even at spirited levels(128db).
This is what I figured. Thanks for chiming in.

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post #16243 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by purplerain View Post
You should have the sub(s) plugged into its own outlet and its own surge protector....

Spoke directly with Rythmik for the answer.
Sorry just now saw this. Very interesting. Did they say why?

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post #16244 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 09:34 AM
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Sorry just now saw this. Very interesting. Did they say why?
The surge protector has to have the power to handle the sub that you are using. When I called, I told them about my single FV15HP and how I wanted it protected. They advised me on having it plugged into its own outlet and making sure the surge protector you get, is the fit (power handle) for your sub (if you so chose to use one). The Panamax model I picked, was specifically for that purpose.

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post #16245 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 05:09 PM
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Just trying to do some prep before my new fv15hp shows up so I can hit the ground running. Should I be starting my initial setup using the LFE input, or should I plan on starting with line in inputs (and if line in, just use either left or right or get a 1female-to-2male adapter and use both). I found a rythmik install guide URL, but it actually just said to do either (did not mention preferred)... Figured I'd ask what most folks do. I'm sure I'll have more questions, but thought I'd start there in case I need to buy the adapter before the sub gets here.

If it matters, my mains are PSB image t6 and center PSB image c5 and nth subzero surrounds. I am thinking crossover will be around 60 or 80 hz across the front and probably 80 in surrounds and wides.

Thx.
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post #16246 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 07:34 PM
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^^ I use this long Y cable. They also have 6 and 15' long
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00DI8...110_SY165_QL70
I would use line in in your case starting out with phase knob at zero, crossover at 80hz
Edit: now that I am thinking about the LFE .1 channel from movie sound track can go up to 120hz, not sure if crossover at the Rythmik sub needs to be at 120hz?

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post #16247 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 07:37 PM
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^^ I use this long Y cable. They also have 6 and 15' long
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00DI8...110_SY165_QL70
I would use line in in your case starting out with phase knob at zero, crossover at 80hz
Thanks. Will give it a shot.
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post #16248 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ I use this long Y cable. They also have 6 and 15' long
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00DI8...110_SY165_QL70
I would use line in in your case starting out with phase knob at zero, crossover at 80hz
Edit: now that I am thinking about the LFE .1 channel from movie sound track can go up to 120hz, not sure if crossover at the Rythmik sub needs to be at 120hz?
If you're going to use your AVR for bass management, LFE bypasses these unnecessary controls. There's an additional difference between using line-in and LFE, but I don't recall what it is. My impression is most folks are using their AVRs for bass management and using LFE-in, am I mistaken about that?

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post #16249 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
If you're going to use your AVR for bass management, LFE bypasses these unnecessary controls. There's an additional difference between using line-in and LFE, but I don't recall what it is. My impression is most folks are using their AVRs for bass management and using LFE-in, am I mistaken about that?
For clarification, I will be using the AVR bass mgmt (an onkyo 818). Using LFE in vs Line in on the fv15hp seems to still be up in the air.
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post #16250 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
If you're going to use your AVR for bass management, LFE bypasses these unnecessary controls. There's an additional difference between using line-in and LFE, but I don't recall what it is. My impression is most folks are using their AVRs for bass management and using LFE-in, am I mistaken about that?
According to Rythmik, "The trade-off between using LFE IN and LINE IN (with AVR/12 LPF switch position) is the perceived background noise level." I wonder if Brian could clarify this, i.e. why do the two vary in perceived background noise, which has higher background noise, and is there some distinction between *perceived* background noise and actual background noise?

Apologies if this has already been answered earlier in this voluminous thread--if so, maybe someone else can share the answer?

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post #16251 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B0dyK0unt View Post
For clarification, I will be using the AVR bass mgmt (an onkyo 818). Using LFE in vs Line in on the fv15hp seems to still be up in the air.
B0dyK0unt,

I use the LFE input on the PEQ3 amp because there is more flexibility with crossover settings. This proved to be useful when dialing in to get the smooth transition at the crossover. Somewhere in this massive thread, Brian has mentioned that the range of LFE input is greater than the line in. By memory, the line in is limited up to 80Hz while the LFE can go up to 200Hz crossover.

The simple logic is that more flexibility the better.

Engaging the LFE input also ignores the line in (believe it was mentioned in previous posts). The only reason I can think of using line in is in pure direct mode by the AVR. In this mode of operation, there is no bass management being carried out and the full signal range is being sent to both the power terminals and pre-out terminals. As my front left and right has limited output in the low frequencies and I'd want to pass this over to the Rythmik sub, I'd then use the line in and set the crossover, phase accordingly. I'm planning to try out this experiment sometime latter on.

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post #16252 of 16728 Old 07-07-2014, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
B0dyK0unt,

I use the LFE input on the PEQ3 amp because there is more flexibility with crossover settings. This proved to be useful when dialing in to get the smooth transition at the crossover. Somewhere in this massive thread, Brian has mentioned that the range of LFE input is greater than the line in. By memory, the line in is limited up to 80Hz while the LFE can go up to 200Hz crossover.

The simple logic is that more flexibility the better.

Engaging the LFE input also ignores the line in (believe it was mentioned in previous posts). The only reason I can think of using line in is in pure direct mode by the AVR. In this mode of operation, there is no bass management being carried out and the full signal range is being sent to both the power terminals and pre-out terminals. As my front left and right has limited output in the low frequencies and I'd want to pass this over to the Rythmik sub, I'd then use the line in and set the crossover, phase accordingly. I'm planning to try out this experiment sometime latter on.
My understanding is that line-in activates the redundant equalization controls on the sub amp that are normally taken care of by the AVR, provides a greater potential frequency window for the sub as you suggested, and according to Brian, has some effect on perceived background noise, though what or by what mechanism or why *perceived* isn't clear to me, I imagine Brian will clarify shortly.

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post #16253 of 16728 Old 07-08-2014, 05:38 AM
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For clarification, I will be using the AVR bass mgmt (an onkyo 818). Using LFE in vs Line in on the fv15hp seems to still be up in the air.
Use LFE. Let your receiver do it's job and take care of the cross-over, bass management etc.......

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post #16254 of 16728 Old 07-08-2014, 05:51 AM
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Also, guys don't be afraid to play around with the PEQ on the amp. I am currently running single port mode 14hz/low dampening with a 3db boost at <60hz. Simply put it sounds amazing. If your room is large and open try out two port mode if your only running a single FV15HP. The increase in bass is noticeable versus one port mode.

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post #16255 of 16728 Old 07-08-2014, 06:35 AM
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One still can use bass management from the avr when sub line in is used. Be aware that Line in activates the phase and crossover knobs. I have heard that using line in has cleaner signal pass thru and that one can adjust the phase/crossover if needed after auto calibration.
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post #16256 of 16728 Old 07-08-2014, 11:26 AM
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Line in adds another gain stage for the filter and thus increases the noise slightly. I cannot hear any difference at my LP but I suppose you might if you stick your ear at the sub...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16257 of 16728 Old 07-08-2014, 11:29 AM
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Line in adds another gain stage for the filter and thus increases the noise slightly. I cannot hear any difference at my LP but I suppose you might if you stick your ear at the sub...
Interesting, I thought it must be the other way around, since Brian suggested experimenting with line-in in lieu of LFE (even if one is using AVR bass management and crossing over low, as I am).

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Line in allows you to add another crossover, increasing the slope (out of band rejection), and fiddle with the phase in case the AVR did not get the delay right to line the signals up (in phase) at the crossover frequency. Those circuits add noise (and distortion), though I think the added noise/distortion is in the mud. With your ear at the sub you might hear a little more hiss. Hard to tell at my age. I can't hear any difference in the noise floor at the listening position.

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post #16259 of 16728 Old 07-08-2014, 01:39 PM
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Thanks all. Sounds like I will start with the LFE input, but can play around with Line In if I dont get good results (although, I know myself, and probably wont completely rest until I try both).
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
My understanding is that line-in activates the redundant equalization controls on the sub amp that are normally taken care of by the AVR, provides a greater potential frequency window for the sub as you suggested, and according to Brian, has some effect on perceived background noise, though what or by what mechanism or why *perceived* isn't clear to me, I imagine Brian will clarify shortly.

Noise and distortion are also affected by bandwidth. The noise can come in at active devices (like OP amps), passive devices (like resistors with thermal noise), and even interconnect. Distortion is mainly generated by active devices. All of these are used in AVR, subwoofer, and the interconnect between them. So having a wider bandwidth on the subwoofer may not be a good thing. So instance, if there is distortions created by circuitry after the DAC inside AVR, or noise picked up by the interconnect that falls into the frequency band say, between 100hz and 300hz, the line-in signal path will filter them out while the LFE in will not. BTW, most customers may not noitce this subltey while others may. Therefore I encourage everyone to try both.

Last edited by Rythmik; 07-08-2014 at 08:13 PM.
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