Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 543 - AVS Forum
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post #16261 of 16287 Old 07-08-2014, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Line in adds another gain stage for the filter and thus increases the noise slightly. I cannot hear any difference at my LP but I suppose you might if you stick your ear at the sub...
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Noise and distortion are also affected by bandwidth. The noise can come in at active devices (like OP amps), passive devices (like resistors with thermal noise), and even interconnect. Distortion is mainly generated by active devices. All of these are used in AVR, subwoofer, and the interconnect between them. So having a wider bandwidth on the subwoofer may not be a good thing.
There is a conflict in this matter. I read Brian's comment as LFE input is not as good as line in. The question I had was if line in was used with a sub 80hz crossover, what happens to 81-120hz from the LFE channel from a movie sound track? Am I losing those frequency content? I assume yes?
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post #16262 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 05:16 AM
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This is what I would assume too based on Rythmik's website. Non issue for me because I use LFE.

Frequency Response 14 - 200 Hz (-2 dB @ 17 Hz, -6db@14hz) with LFE inputs 14 - 90 Hz ((-2 dB @ 17 Hz, -6db@14hz) with LINE IN inputs
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post #16263 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 05:27 AM
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Whether LFE is better than line in or the other way around depends upon the AVR and overall SINAD (signal to noise and distortion) performance of the chain. Without a lot more knowledge it is impossible to say which is better in any given case. IMO it does not really matter but as Brian says try both and see which you like.

The LFE bandwidth also depends upon the AVR's setting. In practice I am not sure there is much LFE content above 80 Hz; anecdotal evidence from various posts on this site lead me to suspect not much. My very brief trials a few years ago indicated that, for me, rolling off the LFE above 80 Hz did not change the sound noticeably (i.e. I did not notice the change on the few scenes I checked). But, I do not know. If the AVR sends all LFE bandwidth to the subwoofer channel and you roll it off in the sub, then yes that half-octave is lost (note that it will be rolled off over 80 Hz, it does not get chopped off right at 80 Hz). If the AVR is set to roll off the sub at 80 Hz, it depends upon how the AVR handles the LFE content. Again without direct measurements of my own, what little research I have done and reading here on AVS seems to indicate some AVRs redirect the LFE (along with other bass content) above the crossover to the L/R speakers, while other do simply roll it off. Again I do not know for sure. Almost all the diagrams I could find all showed LFE going only to the subwoofer and not to the mains. Some AVRs use a global low-pass setting that rolls off the LFE channel along with the mains; others use a separate LPF for the LFE signal.

As I said, for me the difference between line in and LFE in was not noticeable so, if you are concerned about the higher-frequency LFE content, use the LFE input. Better yet try them both and report what you find. I'd be curious if your findings are the same as mine; I honestly do not know what others might find.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16264 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
There is a conflict in this matter. I read Brian's comment as LFE input is not as good as line in. The question I had was if line in was used with a sub 80hz crossover, what happens to 81-120hz from the LFE channel from a movie sound track? Am I losing those frequency content? I assume yes?

I know several members have mentioned this matter. But when I look at that, I immediately know it is the margin that engineers put in. Whenever possible, engineers always try to design in some margin. When you have a special effect (naturally recorded or synthesized), it will not have a natural bandwdith of 80hz or 120hz. So there needs to be a crossover done on these signals: signals below a particular frequency goes to LFE, the rest goes to other channels (so that we can differentiate if the explosion is from the front or from the back). If it is done correctly, the engineer will pick a crossover point below even say 80hz so that there will be enough frequency band for the response to roll-off (instead of cliff-like roll-off).

Last edited by Rythmik; 07-09-2014 at 08:51 AM.
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post #16265 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 04:00 PM
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when is the F25 due back in stock?

any changes when it is back?

sorry if this has been spoken to already I have not followed the thread.

Elwood P. Dowd: Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be" - she always called me Elwood - "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.
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post #16266 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 04:15 PM
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The F25 with dual DS1501 drivers and HX800XLR3 amp will be back in stock by mid August. Also we may bring the H550PEQ3 amp back as an option for the FV15HP.

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post #16267 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
The F25 with dual DS1501 drivers and HX800XLR3 amp will be back in stock by mid August. Also we may bring the H550PEQ3 amp back as an option for the FV15HP.
what are the features and benefits of the H550PEQ3 amp if that were to be available as an option?

Elwood P. Dowd: Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be" - she always called me Elwood - "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.
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post #16268 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
what are the features and benefits of the H550PEQ3 amp if that were to be available as an option?
Benefits of the H550PEQ3 amp has been discussed in this thread in the past. Check on post #6640

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post #16269 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 05:06 PM
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All the features of the 600, hair less money and a hair less power, but respectively more power supply filter capacitance. I'd choose it.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16270 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Benefits of the H550PEQ3 amp has been discussed in this thread in the past. Check on post #6640
thank you for the reply

are there any reviews of the f25 that you or anyone else can link me to?

Elwood P. Dowd: Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be" - she always called me Elwood - "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.
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post #16271 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
All the features of the 600, hair less money and a hair less power, but respectively more power supply filter capacitance. I'd choose it.
Really? Can you elaborate on the 'more power supply filter capacitance'?
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post #16272 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 07:46 PM
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I do not remember the numbers (they are someplace in this thread) but the 550 amplifier uses larger filter capacitors in the power supply than the 600 (probably more capacitance for same size/price at lower voltage). Potentially more charge storage to ride out big bass peaks.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16273 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 08:00 PM
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^^ I found that post. Thanks Don

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post
I found the Amps comparison here: http://rythmikaudio.com/amplifiers.html
They are the same with only 2 differences:
H550-PEQ
Output Power (4ohms): 550W RMS
Power filter caps: 4x50V/22000uF (Panasonic)

H600-PEQ
Output Power (4ohms): 600W RMS
Power filter caps: 4x63V/18000uF (Panasonic)

Now this translates to which one better, I do not know.
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Brian posted the numbers some time ago. The difference in power output and capacitance is actually not very large, and some people will go for the biggest power number no matter what. Given the choice, I would personally choose the 550. If you want energy, then U = 1/2 * C * V^2 but I do not know the voltage rails. Using the capacitors' rated values, the 550 has 110 J and the 600 has 143 J so there is more energy storage capacity in the 600 at the caps' rated voltages. I am guessing from the power ratings (P = V^2/R, and Vpeak = Vrms * sqrt(2)) that each amp is actually using two caps in series, or maybe the amps are bridged (perhaps more likely), I don't know. The A-series amps are class AB, and H-series class-H, so the rails on the H-sereies amps get switched ('ish). Big power caps are usually run at 50% to 75% of their rated voltage but there's really no point in playing games. In the real world I seriously doubt anyone will notice the difference. I have a pair of F12's with the lowly 370 W amps and they do fine... Note 740 W (twice the power of my amp) would only be an extra 3 dB of headroom and my room and ears don't need it.
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

What Don meant was the difference between H600 and H550 is small. Buth H600 still has higher output. So the question is why do we have these two models with such close output rating? Well the cap used on H600 has voltage rating of 63V volts and we only use 53volts. So there is still room to increase the output. However I weighed the balance between output and heat dissipation. Going forward, we will keep H600. But that does not mean H550 will be lacking in support because these two models use the same power amp module so we can continue to support both models with the same power amp module.

Last edited by tvuong; 07-09-2014 at 08:07 PM.
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post #16274 of 16287 Old 07-09-2014, 10:00 PM
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Any reason to avoid putting an FV15HP on its side? I realized it would substitute perfectly for my center channel stand. Obviously that might not turn out to be an accoustically optimal room position, but it's only two feet to the side of its current location. But would having ports on side of driver instead of below matter? Should plugged port be nearer or farther from floor? I suppose air would run through cooling fins less efficiently if horizontal, but they barely seem warm during usage, so not sure that matters much. Just a thought.
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post #16275 of 16287 Old Yesterday, 05:24 AM
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Niccolo this was asked a while back and Brian stated that it was perfectly fine to lay an FV15HP on it's side. I used to lay my LV12R's on their side and never ran into any issues. Your ports and driver will still behave the same way as if it were standing up, so no need to worry. Also, I'm not sure if folks know this, but you can stuff the port plug a good ways back into the port so it's not so noticeable. I do this because I love looking at the gorgeous drivers and prefer the grills off, but I also don't like being able to see the plug.
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post #16276 of 16287 Old Yesterday, 05:33 AM
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Sorry for the crappy iphone picture, but see no port plug visible.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FV4.jpg (75.5 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg FV3.jpg (69.2 KB, 21 views)
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post #16277 of 16287 Old Yesterday, 06:44 AM
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Josh Ricci had the fv15hp laying on its side and said it had a bit more output this way.
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post #16278 of 16287 Old Yesterday, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Josh Ricci had the fv15hp laying on its side and said it had a bit more output this way.
I wonder why?
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post #16279 of 16287 Old Yesterday, 06:53 AM
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Probably boundary coupling to the floor. I would expect any gain to be small and somewhat room-dependent.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16280 of 16287 Old Yesterday, 09:04 AM
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^^ I agree but Josh measured it out door.
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post #16281 of 16287 Old Yesterday, 11:47 AM
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I do not know how Josh measured. Outdoor, fine, but close-mic'd? How close was the sub to the ground? For there to be a change in output given no change except orientation of the box there must be some interaction of the driver/port with a boundary. Unless the amp gains power and/or driver gains excursion/efficiency when turned on its side...

Using the outdoors to emulate an anechoic chamber is not a complete panacea. At low frequencies the wavelengths are long enough that you still interact with the ground, a building twenty feet away, whatever. Some testers raise the speaker off the ground to help reduce the impact of LF ground coupling. Need a really tall crane for a subwoofer.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16282 of 16287 Old Yesterday, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
thank you for the reply

are there any reviews of the f25 that you or anyone else can link me to?
I can't find any.

Why are they not reviewed the question becomes.

Elwood P. Dowd: Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be" - she always called me Elwood - "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.
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post #16283 of 16287 Old Yesterday, 06:07 PM
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There aren't many of them (F25's) out there. Smaller companies in general have a much tougher time getting press coverage for a variety of reasons. That does not mean their products are poorly-performing or in any other way sub-standard.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16284 of 16287 Old Yesterday, 06:40 PM
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post #16285 of 16287 Old Yesterday, 08:04 PM
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Yup!

I have been in an anechoic chamber rated to 30 Hz (IIRC). BIG spikes!

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16286 of 16287 Old Today, 12:05 PM
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Can the A370PEQ amp be used to drive a non-Rythmik, standard driver?
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post #16287 of 16287 Old Today, 03:31 PM
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You'd have to figure out how to bypass the servo circuit, at least.... The easy answer would be "no".

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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