Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 544 - AVS Forum
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post #16291 of 16570 Old 07-11-2014, 08:03 PM
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jkhome,

I got the email with the pictures of your amp. Looks like it's the old A300SE amp. I forwarded the email to Brian so he can look at it but I'm guessing the new DS1501 driver would work just fine.

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post #16292 of 16570 Old 07-11-2014, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
jkhome,

I got the email with the pictures of your amp. Looks like it's the old A300SE amp. I forwarded the email to Brian so he can look at it but I'm guessing the new DS1501 driver would work just fine.
No, I think you are thinking of someone else, I haven't emailed you yet. Here is a post to give a time line :

Simple Rythmik retrofit

Here's a pic of it:


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post #16293 of 16570 Old 07-13-2014, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
There shouldn't be any need to plug subs into a power conditioner, and many of them will choke off the current. I have my subs plugged right into wall outlets.

That said, maybe someone can recommend a surge protector that's good for subs and reasonably priced. (I've often wondered about that, myself.)
I have my FV15 plugged into the wall with no surge protection. Also, I have had a Panamax for close to if not more than 15 years now. It was originally bought for when I had a C-Band satellite system. NO issues what so ever. And I lived in Sarasota, FL, the lightning capitol of the U.S. and now north central AZ.

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post #16294 of 16570 Old 07-13-2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pronghorn/az View Post
I have my FV15 plugged into the wall with no surge protection. Also, I have had a Panamax for close to if not more than 15 years now. It was originally bought for when I had a C-Band satellite system. NO issues what so ever. And I lived in Sarasota, FL, the lightning capitol of the U.S. and now north central AZ.

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Which Panamax? The sub one?
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post #16295 of 16570 Old 07-14-2014, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Which Panamax? The sub one?
The Panamax I have is old, it has many wire connectors for C-Band use. Plus connectors for regular cable and plugs for EQ. I will find out which one. But it has (knock on wood) never failed me.

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post #16296 of 16570 Old 07-14-2014, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by pronghorn/az View Post
The Panamax I have is old, it has many wire connectors for C-Band use. Plus connectors for regular cable and plugs for EQ. I will find out which one. But it has (knock on wood) never failed me.

Jeff
I ordered a set of these, since they are cheap, and Panamax claims they are designed for subs and non-current-limiting:
http://amzn.com/B00012F8AO
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post #16297 of 16570 Old 07-14-2014, 10:33 AM
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There are many possible combinations of sub gain (volume) and AVR settings. Presumably, there is some window that maximizes performance with lots of headroom so there's little risk of clipping. What are the rules of thumb? The advice here seems to be to shoot for Audyssey settings between -3 and -6 dB, but should that be before turning the sub up to run it a bit hot or afterwards?

Currently, I have my sub gain set at a notch below midnight, Audyssey calibrated my sub at -5 dB, and I'm running it a bit hot by moving it to -1 dB. If I move the sub gain up a notch, if I recall correctly Audyssey comes out closer to -10 or -11 dB, and then I'd compensate to -6 or -7 dB. Is the latter preferable or am I in a sweet spot with the former?

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post #16298 of 16570 Old 07-14-2014, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
There are many possible combinations of sub gain (volume) and AVR settings. Presumably, there is some window that maximizes performance with lots of headroom so there's little risk of clipping. What are the rules of thumb? The advice here seems to be to shoot for Audyssey settings between -3 and -6 dB, but should that be before turning the sub up to run it a bit hot or afterwards?

Currently, I have my sub gain set at a notch below midnight, Audyssey calibrated my sub at -5 dB, and I'm running it a bit hot by moving it to -1 dB. If I move the sub gain up a notch, if I recall correctly Audyssey comes out closer to -10 or -11 dB, and then I'd compensate to -6 or -7 dB. Is the latter preferable or am I in a sweet spot with the former?
If you can get Audyssey to be at -6 (-5 is fine too if only boosting +4db) after calibration that's perfect. Does it sound good to you boosting +4db to achieve a -1 result after everything is said and done? If so, you should be golden. All that matters when everything is said and done is that it sounds good to your ears. I prefer to take advantage of the PEQ settings on the amp as opposed to boosting in Audyssey after calibration. I have a +3db boost applied at <60hz and bandwith set mid-way. My Rythmik's sound fantastic in my open >6000 cu ft living room.
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post #16299 of 16570 Old 07-14-2014, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
There are many possible combinations of sub gain (volume) and AVR settings. Presumably, there is some window that maximizes performance with lots of headroom so there's little risk of clipping. What are the rules of thumb? The advice here seems to be to shoot for Audyssey settings between -3 and -6 dB, but should that be before turning the sub up to run it a bit hot or afterwards?

Currently, I have my sub gain set at a notch below midnight, Audyssey calibrated my sub at -5 dB, and I'm running it a bit hot by moving it to -1 dB. If I move the sub gain up a notch, if I recall correctly Audyssey comes out closer to -10 or -11 dB, and then I'd compensate to -6 or -7 dB. Is the latter preferable or am I in a sweet spot with the former?
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
If you can get Audyssey to be at -6 (-5 is fine too if only boosting +4db) after calibration that's perfect. Does it sound good to you boosting +4db to achieve a -1 result after everything is said and done? If so, you should be golden. All that matters when everything is said and done is that it sounds good to your ears. I prefer to take advantage of the PEQ settings on the amp as opposed to boosting in Audyssey after calibration. I have a +3db boost applied at <60hz and bandwith set mid-way. My Rythmik's sound fantastic in my open >6000 cu ft living room.
Sure, the sub sounds great at -1 dB on the AVR and a notch below midnight on the sub gain. But what I'm wondering is if there's any logical way to deduce a sweet spot for the amp setting, e.g. can one generalize about a desirable window? There are various combinations of AVR and sub gain that will yield that same SPL, so I'm looking for some insight into why some might be better than others and which might be optimal.

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post #16300 of 16570 Old 07-14-2014, 07:21 PM
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^^ there is not really a right or wrong way as all the avr does is to calibrate sub(s) and speakers to reference level beside from setting the distances and crossover. From what I have read, most folks including myself try to have the sub trim at -8 or -9 as long as it is not -12db (Denon avr limit) so that one still runs the sub below zero with sub(s) 6-9dbs hot after calibration. Higher sub trim over zero could cause clip or distortion from what I have heard.
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post #16301 of 16570 Old 07-15-2014, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
If you can get Audyssey to be at -6 (-5 is fine too if only boosting +4db) after calibration that's perfect. Does it sound good to you boosting +4db to achieve a -1 result after everything is said and done? If so, you should be golden. All that matters when everything is said and done is that it sounds good to your ears. I prefer to take advantage of the PEQ settings on the amp as opposed to boosting in Audyssey after calibration. I have a +3db boost applied at <60hz and bandwith set mid-way. My Rythmik's sound fantastic in my open >6000 cu ft living room.
I lied. I have a +3db boost applied at <80hz.

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post #16302 of 16570 Old 07-15-2014, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
Sure, the sub sounds great at -1 dB on the AVR and a notch below midnight on the sub gain. But what I'm wondering is if there's any logical way to deduce a sweet spot for the amp setting, e.g. can one generalize about a desirable window? There are various combinations of AVR and sub gain that will yield that same SPL, so I'm looking for some insight into why some might be better than others and which might be optimal.
There is really no standard answer to ths. The reason is there are just too many different choices in each step in the sound reproduction chain: 1) microphones, how many are there, how they are placed? Ambiance microphone?, close-mic, or far mic (I have seen one live concert where one mic is on each drum in the drum set) 2) mixing studio, how they are mixed into two channels, which mic has higher weight/volume?, 3) mastering studio, this is where the determination of what does on to the production version. Engineer can EQ up and down till they feel the sound is near perfect. How do they know the bass is correct? They will basically listening to it in a room similar to yours or mine and make a decision if the bass needs to trim down and 4) finally that sound track is reproduced with your speakers in your room. Each mastering studio have their own winning recipe. In addition, if your system has a pretty wide range of sweet spot, you can vary the bass energy by 6db and still enjoy it (simply because our hearing is least sensitive to bass energy). If the system has very narrow range of sweet spot, then you may even turn up or down bass volume on a track to track basis. Hope this makes you feel better that you can be creative.


-

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post #16303 of 16570 Old 07-15-2014, 10:12 PM
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^Brian,

Some Rythmik owners have turned their subs on the side such that the fins on the amp are oriented horizontal rather than vertical to allow proper heat dissipation. Recall in previous posts that you were not comfortable with this arrangement and asked owners to take care that their amps don't get very hot, else the protection circuit might kick in.

Is this still the case or the new amps allow for both vertical or horizontal arrangement and still allow heat to dissipate?

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post #16304 of 16570 Old 07-16-2014, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
There is really no standard answer to ths. The reason is there are just too many different choices in each step in the sound reproduction chain: 1) microphones, how many are there, how they are placed? Ambiance microphone?, close-mic, or far mic (I have seen one live concert where one mic is on each drum in the drum set) 2) mixing studio, how they are mixed into two channels, which mic has higher weight/volume?, 3) mastering studio, this is where the determination of what does on to the production version. Engineer can EQ up and down till they feel the sound is near perfect. How do they know the bass is correct? They will basically listening to it in a room similar to yours or mine and make a decision if the bass needs to trim down and 4) finally that sound track is reproduced with your speakers in your room. Each mastering studio have their own winning recipe. In addition, if your system has a pretty wide range of sweet spot, you can vary the bass energy by 6db and still enjoy it (simply because our hearing is least sensitive to bass energy). If the system has very narrow range of sweet spot, then you may even turn up or down bass volume on a track to track basis. Hope this makes you feel better that you can be creative.



-
To be clear, I wasn't asking what the optimal bass SPL is, I was asking how to think about what the optimal of the many AVR and sub gain combinations that yield the *same* SPL might be.

So far, the answer seems to be that, once any desired bass boost has been applied in the AVR, the AVR sub setting should be below zero, but not too far from it. This allows sufficient headroom for the signal output from the AVR to the sub. But assuming that any AVR setting is feasible for a desired SPL (since the sub gain can be adjusted, albeit in steps), it's not clear to me whether -1 is better than -5 is better than -10, for example. Am I being more clear?
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post #16305 of 16570 Old 07-16-2014, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
To be clear, I wasn't asking what the optimal bass SPL is, I was asking how to think about what the optimal of the many AVR and sub gain combinations that yield the *same* SPL might be.

So far, the answer seems to be that, once any desired bass boost has been applied in the AVR, the AVR sub setting should be below zero, but not too far from it. This allows sufficient headroom for the signal output from the AVR to the sub. But assuming that any AVR setting is feasible for a desired SPL (since the sub gain can be adjusted, albeit in steps), it's not clear to me whether -1 is better than -5 is better than -10, for example. Am I being more clear?
Nothing real complex here. -5 is a happy medium.
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post #16306 of 16570 Old 07-16-2014, 06:04 AM
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There are all sorts of trades in optimizing the gain structure of an amplifier chain for noise and distortion. It can get to be a rather hairy analysis for something like the RF to audio chain in a radio, or antenna to display in a radar. In practice, for this application, it really doesn't matter because unless you are at either end of your adjustment range it will sound virtually the same. I would shoot for the AVR's sub trim (level) to be no more than 1/2 the maximum setting or so when set how you finally want the sound and call it done. That is, if the range is +/-10 dB and your setting is someplace within +/-5 dB you'll be fine. If it is +6 or -7 you'll still be fine (note I said said "finally" so that is after you have added any gain to make it "hotter"). I would try to stay 3 dB away from either end to provide at least a little headroom in the level circuits.

IMO - Don
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post #16307 of 16570 Old 07-16-2014, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
But assuming that any AVR setting is feasible for a desired SPL (since the sub gain can be adjusted, albeit in steps), it's not clear to me whether -1 is better than -5 is better than -10, for example. Am I being more clear?

-1db to -5db is good. I wouldn't recommend to go as far as -10db. Signal from AVR has a "noise floor" based on which manufacturers measure signal/noise ratio. If you have -10db vs 0db on AVR, it means the former has 10db lower signal to noise ratio. I would assume this has more impact on entry level AVR becasue in order to save money, the designer can even implement that gain stage in digital domain which means the quantization noise can be higher.
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post #16308 of 16570 Old 07-16-2014, 06:28 PM
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Received my two FV15HPs today and after going through a set of SVS SB13 Ultras and HSU ULS-15s, I must say Rythmik has a winner. These are fabulous subs, just wish I had tried them first (my back is killing me).

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post #16309 of 16570 Old 07-16-2014, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Nothing real complex here. -5 is a happy medium.
Because...?

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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
There are all sorts of trades in optimizing the gain structure of an amplifier chain for noise and distortion. It can get to be a rather hairy analysis for something like the RF to audio chain in a radio, or antenna to display in a radar. In practice, for this application, it really doesn't matter because unless you are at either end of your adjustment range it will sound virtually the same. I would shoot for the AVR's sub trim (level) to be no more than 1/2 the maximum setting or so when set how you finally want the sound and call it done. That is, if the range is +/-10 dB and your setting is someplace within +/-5 dB you'll be fine. If it is +6 or -7 you'll still be fine (note I said said "finally" so that is after you have added any gain to make it "hotter"). I would try to stay 3 dB away from either end to provide at least a little headroom in the level circuits.

IMO - Don
What is the range?

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-1db to -5db is good. I wouldn't recommend to go as far as -10db. Signal from AVR has a "noise floor" based on which manufacturers measure signal/noise ratio. If you have -10db vs 0db on AVR, it means the former has 10db lower signal to noise ratio. I would assume this has more impact on entry level AVR becasue in order to save money, the designer can even implement that gain stage in digital domain which means the quantization noise can be higher.
Great, appreciate the factual information, i.e. one is trading off signal/noise ratio at the bottom end and headroom at the upper end.

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post #16310 of 16570 Old 07-16-2014, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Balthazar2k4 View Post
Received my two FV15HPs today and after going through a set of SVS SB13 Ultras and HSU ULS-15s, I must say Rythmik has a winner. These are fabulous subs, just wish I had tried them first (my back is killing me).
What did you perceive to be the shortcomings of the other pairs of subs?

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post #16311 of 16570 Old 07-17-2014, 04:13 AM
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What did you perceive to be the shortcomings of the other pairs of subs?
The SB13s produced powerful, punchy bass, but lacked the extension I was looking for. The ULS-15s were punchy and had the deep extension I wanted, but lacked output. The FV15HP even though vented gives me the best of both worlds. It is controlled, powerful, and offers all the extension I need in my room. Love them!

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post #16312 of 16570 Old 07-17-2014, 06:53 AM
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What is the range?
The range of trim level settings in your AVR.

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post #16313 of 16570 Old 07-18-2014, 07:34 PM
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Oh my goodness, I have just got to comment, it's Friday night and I'm watching a movie on cable called Gravity. Now I have never had a sub woofer before, hated that thumping sound I would hear in cars on the street, but after reading here decided to try one of these Rythmik E15's and wow !! I cranked it up and the walls started to shake, paused to fix pictures and then resumed finding my pants vibrating against my legs and I could really feel this movie in my bones, against my skin, totally distortion free and absolutely incredible, it was like a ride at a carnival or something, and unlike anything I have ever experienced before. I really don't know what to say except wow !! and what a difference between reading about this and experiencing first hand.


PS: I got this sub primarily for music and boy does it perform well there, but this movie effect was just astounding and I find it to be so multipurpose full now, just incredible in both realms.

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post #16314 of 16570 Old 07-18-2014, 08:18 PM
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Got the fv15hp, but have only had little time to play around with it. Initial feed back is wow! This f'r puts out some bass. I'll be playing around with it for weeks before settling on a setting I am sure. Only tried 14hz low damping one port setting using line in. Have a little bit of subwoofer buzz that I need to figure out (probably some ground loop from what I've read). Also, as for placement, having a couple of spikes/nodes at a couple of frequencies (35 and 55-60) just by trying different spots with Sub crawl, but I'm sure I can figure out what is best after tweaking. I was dorking around with the phase knob on back, and had a question...... Do I need PEQ=on for the phase knobs to be working? I am using line in vs LFE (mainly chose line in vs lfe due to less subwoofer buzz using line in). I have not tried a cheater plug yet due to safety concerns, but might. My guess is that peq does not need to be turned on to use phase knob?
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post #16315 of 16570 Old 07-18-2014, 09:04 PM
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Do I need PEQ=on for the phase knobs to be working? I am using line in vs LFE (mainly chose line in vs lfe due to less subwoofer buzz
No. Using line in activates the phase and crossover knobs.
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post #16316 of 16570 Old 07-18-2014, 09:13 PM
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Oh my goodness, I have just got to comment, it's Friday night and I'm watching a movie on cable called Gravity. Now I have never had a sub woofer before, hated that thumping sound I would hear in cars on the street, but after reading here decided to try one of these Rythmik E15's and wow !! I cranked it up and the walls started to shake, paused to fix pictures and then resumed finding my pants vibrating against my legs and I could really feel this movie in my bones, against my skin, totally distortion free and absolutely incredible, it was like a ride at a carnival or something, and unlike anything I have ever experienced before. I really don't know what to say except wow !! and what a difference between reading about this and experiencing first hand.


PS: I got this sub primarily for music and boy does it perform well there, but this movie effect was just astounding and I find it to be so multipurpose full now, just incredible in both realms.
Yep.

If you haven't already, once you learn how to tune it (placement, EQ, time/phase alignment), there is yet another level to discover.
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post #16317 of 16570 Old 07-18-2014, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
No. Using line in activates the phase and crossover knobs.
Thanks
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post #16318 of 16570 Old 07-20-2014, 12:03 PM
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Dual subwoofers co-located

Hi all, I have four F-15's that are co-located in pairs. What would happen if the upper subwoofer (which sits on top of the other one) is rotated 90 degrees to the left or the right in respect of the lower subwoofer?
I'm trying to give the subwoofers (all four of them) different locations. So by turning the upper subwoofers to the left of to the right by 90 degrees maybe I could get them into slightly different locations.
I would like to hear your opinions.

Chris

Last edited by dazzdax; 07-20-2014 at 12:04 PM. Reason: typo
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post #16319 of 16570 Old 07-20-2014, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzdax View Post
Hi all, I have four F-15's that are co-located in pairs. What would happen if the upper subwoofer (which sits on top of the other one) is rotated 90 degrees to the left or the right in respect of the lower subwoofer?
I'm trying to give the subwoofers (all four of them) different locations. So by turning the upper subwoofers to the left of to the right by 90 degrees maybe I could get them into slightly different locations.
I would like to hear your opinions.

Chris
Since bass is mostly omnidirectional, it probably won't have much effect. Sometimes rotating can change things some, and sometimes for the better.

If you have a closed rectangular room, try the REW room simulator to experiment with ideas on layouts for 4 subs:
http://www.roomeqwizard.com

Here are a few suggestions to try:
1) One in each corner, time aligned (most power, canceling some room modes)
2) At 1/4 & 3/4 positions on the front and back wall, time aligned (cancels additional room modes)
3) At 1/4 & 3/4 positions on the front and back wall, but invert polarity for the back pair, and add delay to the back pair of a bit less than 1 ms/ft for the length of the room (Double Bass Array - cancels most room modes)
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post #16320 of 16570 Old 07-20-2014, 11:15 PM
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Four locations is not possible with the subs stacked. They are co-located so, you basically have two large subs.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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