Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 545 - AVS Forum
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post #16321 of 16336 Old 07-21-2014, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post

Here are a few suggestions to try:
1) One in each corner, time aligned (most power, canceling some room modes)
2) At 1/4 & 3/4 positions on the front and back wall, time aligned (cancels additional room modes)
3) At 1/4 & 3/4 positions on the front and back wall, but invert polarity for the back pair, and add delay to the back pair of a bit less than 1 ms/ft for the length of the room (Double Bass Array - cancels most room modes)
dazzdax

Midwall placement has been documented as one of the very best positions of subs. Best if you can have all four subs on their own wall, but if you want to stack them, front/back or left/right wall is also good. Always use opposing walls, if just going with two walls.
If you do sidewalls midplacement, do not set XO higher than 80Hz due to localization, but honestly I don't think you will localize a F15 even at XO=100Hz, but this is something you can try out.

My recommendation is not to invert polarity for a backwall sub, you might get it look better at the XO freq, but it might get worse at other freq., it has not worked out for me to do it like that. If you set a distance to the sub in your AVR, set the distance to the sub farthest away, then the phase on that sub could be 0 on the sub phase dial. Then you delay the sub that is closer to you at MLP on the sub phase dial. If subs are at the same distance you can have both subs at 0 and just play with the AVR phase/distance adjustment.

Not sure if you already have, but just in case, with more than one sub you really need a measurement mic and a SW (like REW) to make the best call on placment and phase adjustments, no matter how golden year you are, you are likely to get a much better integration by doing simple freq. sweeps and see what happens when you play around with placement and settings.

Good luck!
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post #16322 of 16336 Old 07-22-2014, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Danne2 View Post
dazzdax

Midwall placement has been documented as one of the very best positions of subs. Best if you can have all four subs on their own wall, but if you want to stack them, front/back or left/right wall is also good. Always use opposing walls, if just going with two walls.
If you do sidewalls midplacement, do not set XO higher than 80Hz due to localization, but honestly I don't think you will localize a F15 even at XO=100Hz, but this is something you can try out.

My recommendation is not to invert polarity for a backwall sub, you might get it look better at the XO freq, but it might get worse at other freq., it has not worked out for me to do it like that. If you set a distance to the sub in your AVR, set the distance to the sub farthest away, then the phase on that sub could be 0 on the sub phase dial. Then you delay the sub that is closer to you at MLP on the sub phase dial. If subs are at the same distance you can have both subs at 0 and just play with the AVR phase/distance adjustment.

Not sure if you already have, but just in case, with more than one sub you really need a measurement mic and a SW (like REW) to make the best call on placment and phase adjustments, no matter how golden year you are, you are likely to get a much better integration by doing simple freq. sweeps and see what happens when you play around with placement and settings.

Good luck!
This varies from room to room, but I have not had good luck with center wall placement with a sub on 4 walls (not enough power and poor frequency response). On the other hand, center wall placement on the front and back walls gives me pretty good natural frequency response. Corner placement gave me the best results overall, because I have a large room, and benefit from the extra power. As long as there are no nulls, I can EQ the rest flat. In a smaller room with no headroom issues, I think that the center wall or 1/4 3/4 placement may be better. It comes down to experimentation. (My room is longer front to back.)

The interesting thing about the double bass array stuff is that it can cancel out more room modes and create a much larger sweet spot. It's critical to set the delay and gain at the back to coincide with bass from the front wall hitting the back wall to cancel out the reflection. If you don't do that, it will cause problems. I haven't tried this myself, but others have had good results, and the REW room sim predicts good results for me. Someday, I will have to try it, to see if it's worth the power sacrifice:
Double Bass Array (DBA) - The modern bass concept!

I have found that low distortion subs like the Rythmiks can handle higher crossover frequencies without too much localization problems. If you use careful placement, going above 80hz can have definite frequency response benefits. For example, if you're struggling with room modes from the front to back axis in the 80hz range, you can put subs in the front and back to cancel them out (even without that polarity inversion/delay stuff). Even with great full range mains, they won't have that benefit, so a 100-120hz crossover point can help in that case. More details:
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...nd-tell-part-1
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompa...s/multsubs.pdf
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post #16323 of 16336 Old 07-22-2014, 08:26 PM
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Joining the Rythmic Club

Whelp, just placed my order for two LV12Rs for my living room / home theater. I'm looking forward to getting them set up and running some frequency response tests on them! They should be here by next Tuesday - not bad for 140 lbs shipped to Toronto from Texas. Thanks to Brian for the quick shipping (same day).

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post #16324 of 16336 Old Yesterday, 05:29 AM
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Congrats and welcome to the family. I had dual LV12R's before and for their price they are hard to beat. How big is your room?
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post #16325 of 16336 Old Yesterday, 08:31 AM
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I do not normally post on Internet forum boards. My wife said that I needed to give you guys this feedback. I have been playing the trumpet for about 45 years. My passion is audio. As a birthday/Father's Day gift my wife gave me the green light to put together a speaker system that is used primarily for music, and secondarily for movies. I love planar dynamic headphones, such as the hifiman HE-6. Therefore, the 1.7 magnepans were on my short list. I was concerned that their weakness would be the bottom end of the frequency range, so I began lurking here on the subwoofer, bass, and transducer forum of AVS. I need to thank you guys. I would never have heard of the Rythmik audio subwoofer if it hadn't been for people posting here on this forum. Buying an audio component without having a chance to audition it first is a risk. Based on people's forum comments I took a chance and purchase the E15HP. Some people raised concerns about blending a magnepan speaker with subwoofer. They used phrases like, "the magnepan speaker is too fast to blend with a subwoofer." Nevertheless, I took the chance. All I can say is that I have been, "blown away," by this combination of speakers. The magnepan 1.7 are almost eerie in terms of their ability to provide a large soundstage that it is as clear as a window. The Rythmik E15 provides a visceral, or tactile experience, and richness that cannot be described. It is exciting not just to listen to music but to also "feel the music in the air" and the air pressure on my skin. I use a crossover at about 45 Hz. The gain or volume I vary depending on how musically processed, or bass heavy, the musical selection is that I am listening to. Again, I want to thank you guys for posting on this forum. You turned me on to a great product.
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post #16326 of 16336 Old Yesterday, 09:01 AM
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^^ excellent. Very glad you took your time to post. Thanks to you and your wife
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post #16327 of 16336 Old Yesterday, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Congrats and welcome to the family. I had dual LV12R's before and for their price they are hard to beat. How big is your room?
Thanks! - My room is about 1700 cubic feet, but it opens up to a kitchen, so all together about 2300 cubic feet. I had dual PC12s before that worked fairly well for the space, but expect the dual LV12Rs to do a comparable job. It will be interesting comparing the servo technology to SVSs dsp speakers - though it will have been a week or two between speakers by the time I get them set up and properly integrated so my memory won't be particularly accurate.

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post #16328 of 16336 Old Yesterday, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Cingulate Gyrus View Post
I do not normally post on Internet forum boards. My wife said that I needed to give you guys this feedback. I have been playing the trumpet for about 45 years. My passion is audio. As a birthday/Father's Day gift my wife gave me the green light to put together a speaker system that is used primarily for music, and secondarily for movies. I love planar dynamic headphones, such as the hifiman HE-6. Therefore, the 1.7 magnepans were on my short list. I was concerned that their weakness would be the bottom end of the frequency range, so I began lurking here on the subwoofer, bass, and transducer forum of AVS. I need to thank you guys. I would never have heard of the Rythmik audio subwoofer if it hadn't been for people posting here on this forum. Buying an audio component without having a chance to audition it first is a risk. Based on people's forum comments I took a chance and purchase the E15HP. Some people raised concerns about blending a magnepan speaker with subwoofer. They used phrases like, "the magnepan speaker is too fast to blend with a subwoofer." Nevertheless, I took the chance. All I can say is that I have been, "blown away," by this combination of speakers. The magnepan 1.7 are almost eerie in terms of their ability to provide a large soundstage that it is as clear as a window. The Rythmik E15 provides a visceral, or tactile experience, and richness that cannot be described. It is exciting not just to listen to music but to also "feel the music in the air" and the air pressure on my skin. I use a crossover at about 45 Hz. The gain or volume I vary depending on how musically processed, or bass heavy, the musical selection is that I am listening to. Again, I want to thank you guys for posting on this forum. You turned me on to a great product.
Superb post for it being your first and probably last.
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post #16329 of 16336 Old Yesterday, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post
Thanks! - My room is about 1700 cubic feet, but it opens up to a kitchen, so all together about 2300 cubic feet. I had dual PC12s before that worked fairly well for the space, but expect the dual LV12Rs to do a comparable job. It will be interesting comparing the servo technology to SVSs dsp speakers - though it will have been a week or two between speakers by the time I get them set up and properly integrated so my memory won't be particularly accurate.
I had mine in an open room over 5000 cu ft and they performed well, but that size of a room is asking a lot from them. I had to upgrade to FV15HP's and now I'm not looking back.......
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post #16330 of 16336 Old Yesterday, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cingulate Gyrus View Post
I do not normally post on Internet forum boards. My wife said that I needed to give you guys this feedback. I have been playing the trumpet for about 45 years. My passion is audio. As a birthday/Father's Day gift my wife gave me the green light to put together a speaker system that is used primarily for music, and secondarily for movies. I love planar dynamic headphones, such as the hifiman HE-6. Therefore, the 1.7 magnepans were on my short list. I was concerned that their weakness would be the bottom end of the frequency range, so I began lurking here on the subwoofer, bass, and transducer forum of AVS. I need to thank you guys. I would never have heard of the Rythmik audio subwoofer if it hadn't been for people posting here on this forum. Buying an audio component without having a chance to audition it first is a risk. Based on people's forum comments I took a chance and purchase the E15HP. Some people raised concerns about blending a magnepan speaker with subwoofer. They used phrases like, "the magnepan speaker is too fast to blend with a subwoofer." Nevertheless, I took the chance. All I can say is that I have been, "blown away," by this combination of speakers. The magnepan 1.7 are almost eerie in terms of their ability to provide a large soundstage that it is as clear as a window. The Rythmik E15 provides a visceral, or tactile experience, and richness that cannot be described. It is exciting not just to listen to music but to also "feel the music in the air" and the air pressure on my skin. I use a crossover at about 45 Hz. The gain or volume I vary depending on how musically processed, or bass heavy, the musical selection is that I am listening to. Again, I want to thank you guys for posting on this forum. You turned me on to a great product.
Small world! I have Maggies (and have for decades), a pair of Rythmiks, and play trumpet (dep in several bands around the area, play in the local philharmonic, and help moderate the Trumpet Herald, an online forum for trumpet players).

Congrats! - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16331 of 16336 Old Yesterday, 06:01 PM
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... The Rythmik E15 provides a visceral, or tactile experience, and richness that cannot be described...
Depending on placement of the E15 and where you sit, there could be some unevenness in the bass, i.e. lots of peaks and dips via room modes. I'm finding out the hard way with just a single F12G.

If you're willing to experiment with E15 placement and where you listen, you may get a slightly smoother bass response, but not completely deal with the standing waves issue.

Been thinking of how to deal with room modes and the best way is to get second sub. In your case it would be another E15 and put together a dual sub setup. The logic is getting a more even bass response over a larger sweet spot and have some extra head room which can deal with the peak transients in the recordings.

Pondering about getting another Rythmik F12G. I believe there's a 10% discount for returning customers, which does help the wallet...
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I don't think we're going to hear from that fine gentlemen again.
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I have a few questions about getting the most out of the Rythmik E15HP. On the Rythmik handout that comes with the subwoofer it emphasizes that one of the most important settings to manipulate is, "phase." Rythmik recommended either a 1 o'clock or 10 o'clock setting to begin with depending upon whether your speakers are sealed or ported in design. Honestly, I could not tell much of a difference no matter what the phase knob was set to. On the front wall I have my magnepan 1.7 speakers, which are about the same distance away from me as the subwoofer. The subwoofer is located on the back wall of the room, in the corner, to the right of my listening position. Is it because the main speakers and subwoofer are about the same distance from the listening position that the phase control adjustment has little noticeable impact on bass response? My 2nd question concerns the use of the PEQ settings. There are 3 rotary variables that can be adjusted within this section of the amp. Are these 3 additional settings manipulating a single frequency? If so, I would probably need to do a very sensitive frequency analysis to determine whether any one particular frequency range required either amplification or attenuation. I guess the concept for this PEQ setting is that based on a particular room, with its nulls and nodes, the specific listening position may have certain frequencies canceled out? Thanks for your help guys.
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post #16334 of 16336 Old Today, 07:59 AM
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^^^^I was wrong

Receiver - Denon 1713
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #16335 of 16336 Old Today, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Cingulate Gyrus View Post
I have a few questions about getting the most out of the Rythmik E15HP. On the Rythmik handout that comes with the subwoofer it emphasizes that one of the most important settings to manipulate is, "phase." Rythmik recommended either a 1 o'clock or 10 o'clock setting to begin with depending upon whether your speakers are sealed or ported in design. Honestly, I could not tell much of a difference no matter what the phase knob was set to. On the front wall I have my magnepan 1.7 speakers, which are about the same distance away from me as the subwoofer. The subwoofer is located on the back wall of the room, in the corner, to the right of my listening position. Is it because the main speakers and subwoofer are about the same distance from the listening position that the phase control adjustment has little noticeable impact on bass response? My 2nd question concerns the use of the PEQ settings. There are 3 rotary variables that can be adjusted within this section of the amp. Are these 3 additional settings manipulating a single frequency? If so, I would probably need to do a very sensitive frequency analysis to determine whether any one particular frequency range required either amplification or attenuation. I guess the concept for this PEQ setting is that based on a particular room, with its nulls and nodes, the specific listening position may have certain frequencies canceled out? Thanks for your help guys.
Start with the PEQ at 0.

Do you have a receiver with auto-calibration and bass management? I have my phase set to 0, and use my receiver set the delay for me, for phase.

If not, adjust the phase so that you get the maximum output at the crossover frequency. You can accomplish that by using a test tone at the crossover frequency and an SPL meter, or (better yet) by using frequency analyzer software on a PC or laptop with a measurement mic, like Room EQ Wizard. As an alternative, there are SPL and frequency analyzer apps available for smartphones/tablets.

With the PC route, here is a good measurement mic: http://cross-spectrum.com/measuremen...ated_umik.html

Ideally, you would use measurements to guide EQ, whether auto-EQ in a receiver or using the PEQ. You can also do it by ear if there is something you like.

BTW, you mentioned that you were crossing over at 45hz. I'd recommend starting at 80hz and tuning from there. I'd consider between 60-120hz typical good values. It is important to get the phase and EQ set well for the best results.
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post #16336 of 16336 Old Today, 08:04 AM
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...phase...
More details:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/phase1.html
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