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post #16351 of 16364 Old Yesterday, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
What speakers are you using? Do you have graph of L or R or C speaker with subs?
They are Triad Platinums that I got cheap from an estate sale.
Rythmik got most of my speaker budget.


The graphs I posted show L & R overlaid, crossed with the subs at 100hz.


With the 10" woofers, the Plats can handle lower crossover frequencies well enough, but I run into problems with nulls when bass only comes from the front.


My frequency response was awful without at least one sub in the front and one in the back. 4 subs just gave me more headroom (big room) and better seat-to-seat consistency.

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post #16352 of 16364 Old Yesterday, 01:52 PM
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I run the output of my AVR through an inexpensive dbx (professional) crossover set around 50 - 60 Hz (forget where I left it). Maggies distort heavily when presented with large bass signals; the Rythmik does not. In the decades I have owned Maggies and similar speakers I have always found substantial audible and measured improvements letting a good sub handle the deep bass, starting with my very own servo design back in the late 70's early 80's. That includes ESLs, or just about any conventional speaker, for that matter -- the only pair I owned that did OK sub-less was my IRS 2; a pair of early model B&W 801's did OK as well. Planer speakers are worse because by and large they simply do not have the area and excursion to deliver the much larger output low bass demands (look at a Fletcher-Munson loudness curve, remembering 10 dB is 10x the power).

Many Rythmik models include a HPF as well as LPF you could use. I have not really tried it.

Letting the sub and main speakers overlap in the low bass has virtually always led to worse sound in my experience, including muddy bass and the like. That has been worse for large panel mains, again IME.

I'd personally roll off the 1.7's up around 60 - 80 Hz, at least 1/2 to 1 octave above their low end rating, and let the sub do its thing. I suspect you'll be happily surprised by the result.

FWIWFM - Don
I love your thoughts. So what you were saying is buy an external crossovers device and use that on the speaker cable output from the main amp going to the Maggis. I didn't know that there was such a device. Do you have any recommendations on a particular product.
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post #16353 of 16364 Old Yesterday, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Cingulate Gyrus View Post
So what you were saying is buy an external crossovers device and use that on the speaker cable output from the main amp going to the Maggis. I didn't know that there was such a device. Do you have any recommendations on a particular product.
A more straightforward solution would be to get a receiver with bass management, if you aren't able to use the built-in crossover in the Rythmik. If you go with an external crossover, an active (line-level, not speaker-level) crossover is preferable, if possible with your setup.
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post #16354 of 16364 Old Yesterday, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
They are Triad Platinums that I got cheap from an estate sale.
Rythmik got most of my speaker budget.


The graphs I posted show L & R overlaid, crossed with the subs at 100hz.


With the 10" woofers, the Plats can handle lower crossover frequencies well enough, but I run into problems with nulls when bass only comes from the front.


My frequency response was awful without at least one sub in the front and one in the back. 4 subs just gave me more headroom (big room) and better seat-to-seat consistency.
My Klipsch towers were measued flat to 25hz in my room but I prefer crossing them over at 80hz not only to have my FV15hps handle the low but also to release load off my Denon receiver. There is benefit to have a higher crossover.
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post #16355 of 16364 Old Yesterday, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Cingulate Gyrus View Post
I love your thoughts. So what you were saying is buy an external crossovers device and use that on the speaker cable output from the main amp going to the Maggis. I didn't know that there was such a device. Do you have any recommendations on a particular product.
No, an active crossover between the preamp and amplifier. I thought you were using an external amp? If not, there is (probably) no practical way to run an active bi-amp configuration, sorry. I must have misread your system. If you are using an AVR that has a subwoofer output, that would do.

You could make or buy an external passive speaker-level crossover but that is not what I had in mind.

For the record, Magnepan says to run them full-range. I disagree based upon my ears and my test equipment. YMMV - Don
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post #16356 of 16364 Old Today, 02:49 AM
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Hi folks, I try to blend 4 F-15 subwoofers with Soundlab electrostatic speakers. What would be the right steepness for a low pass filter: 12dB or 24dB/octave?
Do planar speakers have a natural roll off of about 6dB/octave?

Chris
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
No, an active crossover between the preamp and amplifier. I thought you were using an external amp? If not, there is (probably) no practical way to run an active bi-amp configuration, sorry. I must have misread your system. If you are using an AVR that has a subwoofer output, that would do.

You could make or buy an external passive speaker-level crossover but that is not what I had in mind.

For the record, Magnepan says to run them full-range. I disagree based upon my ears and my test equipment. YMMV - Don
I see what you are saying. I went to the musician friends website and see that they have a variety of active cross over products. My preamp uses XLR balanced outs into the power amp. I could easily insert one of these active crossover products at that point in the chain and see if I can hear the sonic benefit. Do you still incorporate the active crossover in your audio system? I see that magnepan indicates letting the maggies run full band width. With that said, what you point out about doubling up on the bass frequencies between the subwoofer and speakers makes a lot of sense to me. You say you cut the maggies off at about 60 hertz? You don't think adding the crossover degrades the audio signal (since the internals in the crossover are relatively inexpensive)? I respect your opinion, and thank you for taking the time to think about my questions.
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I like this little tid-bit they threw in on the Rythmik website about the FV15HP. To me it's not small, but I guess in comparison to some of the other offerings it is. Also, impressive that for it's size it can push close to 100db at 12.5hz.

FV15HP is the smallest in size (but highest in output) among the top 3 commercial ported subwoofers tested at data-bass 12.5hz output comparsion. Even at 16hz comparison, we are the number 6 highest output.

Receiver - Denon 1713
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #16359 of 16364 Old Today, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cingulate Gyrus View Post
I see what you are saying. I went to the musician friends website and see that they have a variety of active cross over products. My preamp uses XLR balanced outs into the power amp. I could easily insert one of these active crossover products at that point in the chain and see if I can hear the sonic benefit. Do you still incorporate the active crossover in your audio system? I see that magnepan indicates letting the maggies run full band width. With that said, what you point out about doubling up on the bass frequencies between the subwoofer and speakers makes a lot of sense to me. You say you cut the maggies off at about 60 hertz? You don't think adding the crossover degrades the audio signal (since the internals in the crossover are relatively inexpensive)? I respect your opinion, and thank you for taking the time to think about my questions.
If you want to insert an active crossover or DSP in the chain I would strongly recommend to look at something different than pro audio active crossovers or speaker management systems. Most of cheap pro audio active crossovers like DBX DriveRack has a FR of 20Hz to 20KHz which cut off all subsonic frequencies on the subwoofer. The Behringer CX3400 is better in terms of FR (5Hz to 20KHz) but it's not reliable. I have a full closet with more than 30 Behringer products including preamps, mixers and active crossovers that went back in less than two years.

I think options like miniDSP Balanced 2x4 ($125) or the more expensive miniDSP Dirac Live DDRC-22A ($899) are a better option than a pro audio crossover.
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
If you want to insert an active crossover or DSP in the chain I would strongly recommend to look at something different than pro audio active crossovers or speaker management systems. Most of cheap pro audio active crossovers like DBX DriveRack has a FR of 20Hz to 20KHz which cut off all subsonic frequencies on the subwoofer. The Behringer CX3400 is better in terms of FR (5Hz to 20KHz) but it's not reliable. I have a full closet with more than 30 Behringer products including preamps, mixers and active crossovers that went back in less than two years.

I think options like miniDSP Balanced 2x4 ($125) or the more expensive miniDSP Dirac Live DDRC-22A ($899) are a better option than a pro audio crossover.
Thanks for you feedback. The crossover would not impact on the connections to the subwoofer. I use the unbalanced outs from the preamp to go directly to the E15HP. The subwoofer would see the full range of audio signal. I would use the crossover to serve as a bridge between the balanced outs from the preamp and the power amp, which drives the maggies. I would use the filter so that the maggies did not see the frequencies beneath, lets say 70 hertz. Therefore, there would not be a doubling up on those frequencies between the subwoofer and the main speakers. Could I use an active crossover like a Behringer product for that goal without sacrificing audio quality to the maggies?
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post #16361 of 16364 Old Today, 08:35 AM
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While you do have to check the response, most pro units will work fine. (The DriveRack is actually for another purpose than crossover and is well beyond what I would suggest in this case.) The problem I have often found is not limited LF response but limited low range on the crossover setting. That is also true of many audiophile crossovers; some manufacturers (like Bryston) make a special subwoofer version. Mine comes in TRS or XLR versions and I think the model number is dbx 223xs (there are several flavors with various I/O and number of crossovers built in, and you can get it in black or silver). Check it out at Sweetwater (www.sweetwater.com); I think it runs around $200. It is an analog unit using a standard L-R (Linkwitz-Riley) crossover design so is not as flexible as the miniDSP (which is a digital processor so you can do a lot with it). But, it is much easier to just plug in and go. If you want to explore more advanced options and build a measurement and correction system then the miniDSP is a great way to go. From there you quickly run into thousands of dollars for higher-end stand-alone units.

* Checked the specs: Bandwidth: 20 Hz to 20 kHz, +0/-0.5 dB, Frequency Response: < 3 Hz to > 90 kHz, +0/-3 dB. My system provides bass to about 10 Hz (-3 dB) in-room with a pair of F12's.

My past experience with Behringer echoes Enrico's and I would not suggest them (but I have little recent experience). The Behringer DSP-based units are used in some high-0end speakers but again is likely overkill in this application.

I use the crossover for sub and mains as the L-R design is a good way to match slopes and phase. I do not notice any loss of sound clarity/whatever to mains or sub.

If you want a better, or at least more expensive, analog crossover then Marchand would be my advice.

Letting the mains run full-range is one of the few, if not only, areas where Magnepan and I disagree. I am just one unknown guy, but OTOH I have measurements and a lot of listening made by myself and many others over several decades to back me up.

FWIWFM - Don
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
While you do have to check the response, most pro units will work fine. (The DriveRack is actually for another purpose than crossover and is well beyond what I would suggest in this case.) The problem I have often found is not limited LF response but limited low range on the crossover setting. That is also true of many audiophile crossovers; some manufacturers (like Bryston) make a special subwoofer version. Mine comes in TRS or XLR versions and I think the model number is dbx 223xs (there are several flavors with various I/O and number of crossovers built in, and you can get it in black or silver). Check it out at Sweetwater (www.sweetwater.com); I think it runs around $200. It is an analog unit using a standard L-R (Linkwitz-Riley) crossover design so is not as flexible as the miniDSP (which is a digital processor so you can do a lot with it). But, it is much easier to just plug in and go. If you want to explore more advanced options and build a measurement and correction system then the miniDSP is a great way to go. From there you quickly run into thousands of dollars for higher-end stand-alone units.

* Checked the specs: Bandwidth: 20 Hz to 20 kHz, +0/-0.5 dB, Frequency Response: < 3 Hz to > 90 kHz, +0/-3 dB. My system provides bass to about 10 Hz (-3 dB) in-room with a pair of F12's.

My past experience with Behringer echoes Enrico's and I would not suggest them (but I have little recent experience). The Behringer DSP-based units are used in some high-0end speakers but again is likely overkill in this application.

I use the crossover for sub and mains as the L-R design is a good way to match slopes and phase. I do not notice any loss of sound clarity/whatever to mains or sub.

If you want a better, or at least more expensive, analog crossover then Marchand would be my advice.

Letting the mains run full-range is one of the few, if not only, areas where Magnepan and I disagree. I am just one unknown guy, but OTOH I have measurements and a lot of listening made by myself and many others over several decades to back me up.

FWIWFM - Don
I have to admit Don I find the DBX 223xs unit to be confusing. On the back it is clear that I have 1 XLR input (that will come from my prreamp). It looks like the unit requires 2 XLR outputs for each channel (handling the woofer and tweeter drivers of a speaker). It lists under one of the XLR outputs "not used." The front of the unit I also find confusing. I downloaded the owners manual but it is really sparse in terms of the details. Do you use a "Y" XLR cable for the output to your power amp? The front 2 gain knobs are probably boosting the amplification of the woofer and tweeter section of the output. The single crossover knob on the front probably has a switch that allows you to tell the unit with regard to the tweeter and woofer section of the speaker what the crossover should be. Am I right on this?
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
While you do have to check the response, most pro units will work fine. (The DriveRack is actually for another purpose than crossover and is well beyond what I would suggest in this case.) The problem I have often found is not limited LF response but limited low range on the crossover setting. That is also true of many audiophile crossovers; some manufacturers (like Bryston) make a special subwoofer version. Mine comes in TRS or XLR versions and I think the model number is dbx 223xs (there are several flavors with various I/O and number of crossovers built in, and you can get it in black or silver). Check it out at Sweetwater (www.sweetwater.com); I think it runs around $200. It is an analog unit using a standard L-R (Linkwitz-Riley) crossover design so is not as flexible as the miniDSP (which is a digital processor so you can do a lot with it). But, it is much easier to just plug in and go. If you want to explore more advanced options and build a measurement and correction system then the miniDSP is a great way to go. From there you quickly run into thousands of dollars for higher-end stand-alone units.

* Checked the specs: Bandwidth: 20 Hz to 20 kHz, +0/-0.5 dB, Frequency Response: < 3 Hz to > 90 kHz, +0/-3 dB. My system provides bass to about 10 Hz (-3 dB) in-room with a pair of F12's.

My past experience with Behringer echoes Enrico's and I would not suggest them (but I have little recent experience). The Behringer DSP-based units are used in some high-0end speakers but again is likely overkill in this application.

I use the crossover for sub and mains as the L-R design is a good way to match slopes and phase. I do not notice any loss of sound clarity/whatever to mains or sub.

If you want a better, or at least more expensive, analog crossover then Marchand would be my advice.

Letting the mains run full-range is one of the few, if not only, areas where Magnepan and I disagree. I am just one unknown guy, but OTOH I have measurements and a lot of listening made by myself and many others over several decades to back me up.

FWIWFM - Don
Don: It looks like the DBX 223sx only has a 40hz low frequency cut. What this unit specializes in is letting the user decide where the crossover should take place between the woofer and tweeter; as well as allowing the user to amplify the signal to the woofer or tweeter (and deal with phase issues). Did I miss something?
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post #16364 of 16364 Old Today, 10:57 AM
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Go to the Sweetwater site and download the CutSheet and the manual. It is a two-channel (stereo) unit with input, low output, and high output jacks for each channel. Each channel has input gain, crossover frequency, and output gain controls to allow you to match the low and high output levels. The 40 Hz low cut (high pass) filter you do not use for this application. You can also configure it to be a three-way mono unit and that is probably what is confusing. The front panel has two rows at the bottom; the top is mono (three-way crossover) operation, and the bottom row is when you use it as a stereo unit. The back panel also has two rows, but the one at the top is for stereo and the row at the bottom is for mono. If you only have one sub you will use it in stereo but sum the L/R inputs (switch on the back). I use mine in stereo since I have two subs. The Mode switch has the labels and a switch that determines which mode you are in.

The CutSheet lays it all out and the manual goes into more detail.

HTH - Don

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