Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 547 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 58Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #16381 of 16401 Old 07-27-2014, 10:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tvuong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,542
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 67
^^ say what? Sorry I am not following.
tvuong is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #16382 of 16401 Old 07-28-2014, 05:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JT78681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,066
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by highmr View Post
Joined the Rhythmik owner group with a D15SE. Room is a quite large open format kitchen and family room (although partially broken by a protruding fireplace). WxDxH = 36'x26'x12', and there are open hallways attached. Subfloor is concrete foundation, with a mix of stone tile and carpet. The width of the partial alcove where the speakers are actually located is 15' (D and H the same as above). Previously we had a single Hsu VTF-2 MK4 (formerly in a smaller room). I understand a single subwoofer such as that Hsu should be overwhelmed by that room, but I honestly did not notice any issues. We typically listen to music at about -20 and Blu-Ray at about -10, with Audyssey MultEq and DEQ turned on. I selected the D15SE because the FV15HPSE seemed to large (from a room appearance standpoint), and even compared to the sealed E15 and F15 models, the taller, square D15 is more furniture like. I do really like the piano black. Eventually I may get a matching or similar Rhythmik and a receiver with XT32 and subEQ, but I will try to make this work for a year or so. I've ordered a UMIK-1 mike and plan to use the REW software to compare the subs and to optimize their combined placement and settings, understanding that it is more difficult without the subEQ in the receiver. Initial plan for settings is to emphasize high damping in both, and to use the max extension setting in the Hsu to try to be somewhat similar in FR (as much as is possible considering it is 12"). My first goal is music of all kinds, only focusing on movie and volume performance if I actually notice an issue. Suggestions are welcome.
Let us know when you get your mic and REW up and running. It will be very interesting to see how both subs interact with one another.

Receiver - Denon 1713
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
JT78681 is offline  
post #16383 of 16401 Old 07-28-2014, 06:20 AM
Advanced Member
 
rcohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by coli View Post
Just want to share something I just discovered... on my AVR, apparently all the pre-outs share the same power, upon disconnecting my left/right pre-outs (switched to avr l/r speaker), all of sudden there is so much more dynamic bass now.
That shouldn't happen.

You might be having problems with cancellation.
Set your left/right to small, and make sure you have the delay/distance set so that it doesn't cancel at the crossover frequency.
rcohen is online now  
post #16384 of 16401 Old 07-28-2014, 06:41 AM
Senior Member
 
coli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 297
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 23
del
coli is offline  
post #16385 of 16401 Old 07-28-2014, 06:57 AM
Advanced Member
 
rcohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by coli View Post
Just want to share something I just discovered... on my AVR, apparently all the pre-outs share the same power, upon disconnecting my left/right pre-outs (switched to avr l/r speaker), all of sudden there is so much more dynamic bass now.
Just to be clear, are you saying that using the receiver's builtin amplifier is giving more dynamic bass than using the pre-outs and an external amplifier?
rcohen is online now  
post #16386 of 16401 Old 07-28-2014, 05:23 PM
Senior Member
 
steveting99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 472
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Liked: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by highmr View Post
... I've ordered a UMIK-1 mike and plan to use the REW software to compare the subs and to optimize their combined placement and settings, understanding that it is more difficult without the subEQ in the receiver. Initial plan for settings is to emphasize high damping in both, and to use the max extension setting in the Hsu to try to be somewhat similar in FR (as much as is possible considering it is 12"). My first goal is music of all kinds, only focusing on movie and volume performance if I actually notice an issue. Suggestions are welcome.
If you're interested in getting both subs to work together, the Denon AVR-2310 has a single sub pre-out. Audyssey MultiEQ will set a single level and distance setting to both subs for a combined response. So the key is setting up of the HSU and Rythmik prior to running Audyssey.

You might want to consider gain matching the subs so that there is equal power output for each sub with respect to the Main Listening Position based on reference level that Audyssey will run at (75dB). This will minimize one sub working too hard while the other just sits there humming along.

An external box such as the MiniDSP (2x4) between the sub pre-out and the the subs is another consideration. You might be interested on the write-up done by AVS member neutro in the following thread here: Tutorial: Dual sub integration using the MiniDSP as it should give some ideas on what can be done in a dual sub set-up.

Placement of the subs is the key in getting smooth bass over a larger sweet spot. Have fun along the way and post back results if you can. There are quite a few clever people who hang around AVS that can provide advise.

Maranatz NR1504, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, LG LW6500, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 remote, KEF E301, MiniDSP(2x4), Rythmik F12G
steveting99 is offline  
post #16387 of 16401 Old 07-28-2014, 05:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
rcohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 53
2 subs with 1 sub output from your amp doesn't require a MiniDSP (although those could be good for other things).


Use the "line in" input, not LFE, so that they "delay/phase" knobs are active.
Set the crossover to the max (120hz), and use the receiver's crossover setting, instead.
With the help if the mic and REW, tune the delay and gain on each sub. (This can be tricky.)




More details: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/phase1.html
rcohen is online now  
post #16388 of 16401 Old 07-28-2014, 07:17 PM
Senior Member
 
steveting99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 472
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Liked: 60
^rcohen,

Great suggestion! Haven't thought about this trick and save $100 on the MiniDSP - just thought the (2x4) would make it easier / more accurate in setting up two subs. The (2x4) also has the ability to add some PEQ filters and/or a low shelf to taste.

Thinking aloud about the general set-up method (after sub placement has is decided) for multiple subs being:

(1) Set the phase angle for both subs to zero then gain match the subs first.

(2) Run Audyssey to determine the distances of each sub individually.

(3) Get the delta between the further away and nearest sub. This will determine how much delay is needed at the selected crossover.

(4) Add some delay (phase) to the nearest sub so that it can be time aligned with the furthest.

(5) Re-run Audyssey with both subs to get the combined response for level and distance.

(6) Check with REW that low frequency response is flat. Check also that the crossover is smooth.

Maranatz NR1504, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, LG LW6500, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 remote, KEF E301, MiniDSP(2x4), Rythmik F12G
steveting99 is offline  
post #16389 of 16401 Old 07-28-2014, 07:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
rcohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Those steps sound like good advice.

I just realized you were using two different models of subs. That can be tricky, since there may be frequency-dependent phase differences between the subs. So, even if you match the phase at the crossover frequency, the subs might cancel at other frequencies.

It might be good, though.

If your frequency response is worse with 2 subs than with 1, and you aren't able to fix it, you could try playing with the various filter settings, until you find one that works best.
rcohen is online now  
post #16390 of 16401 Old 07-28-2014, 08:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
derrickdj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,363
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 139
What is being discussed is level matching. Set each sub to around 73 db at the main listening position. Then run autocalibration. Gain matching is done with identical subs. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus Five 200 amp, Chase SS 18.2(2), VS 18.1(2), Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
derrickdj1 is online now  
post #16391 of 16401 Old Yesterday, 06:55 AM
Member
 
highmr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Let us know when you get your mic and REW up and running. It will be very interesting to see how both subs interact with one another.
I will. I'm glad this thread doesn't get too particular about slightly off topic room optimization vs. just the sub. More for curiosity, I'll probably get REW curves of each one separately in its preferred position, then together, then decide if I need to move them or play with phase or delay on either.

LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2 ........ Subwoofers: Rhythmik D15SE, Hsu VTF-2 MK4
Receiver: Denon 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80 .................... TV: Panasonic TC-50PU54
highmr is offline  
post #16392 of 16401 Old Yesterday, 07:00 AM
Member
 
highmr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
If you're interested in getting both subs to work together, the Denon AVR-2310 has a single sub pre-out. Audyssey MultiEQ will set a single level and distance setting to both subs for a combined response. So the key is setting up of the HSU and Rythmik prior to running Audyssey.

You might want to consider gain matching the subs so that there is equal power output for each sub with respect to the Main Listening Position based on reference level that Audyssey will run at (75dB). This will minimize one sub working too hard while the other just sits there humming along.

An external box such as the MiniDSP (2x4) between the sub pre-out and the the subs is another consideration. You might be interested on the write-up done by AVS member neutro in the following thread here: Tutorial: Dual sub integration using the MiniDSP as it should give some ideas on what can be done in a dual sub set-up.

Placement of the subs is the key in getting smooth bass over a larger sweet spot. Have fun along the way and post back results if you can. There are quite a few clever people who hang around AVS that can provide advise.
I just received the Umik-1 mike and longer subwoofer cables and a splitter so that I can do initial setup with the 2310. Based on this thread I looked at the miniDSP and it looks interesting. I'll try to do without it first, but I think it would solve some of my problems without having to get XT32.

LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2 ........ Subwoofers: Rhythmik D15SE, Hsu VTF-2 MK4
Receiver: Denon 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80 .................... TV: Panasonic TC-50PU54
highmr is offline  
post #16393 of 16401 Old Yesterday, 07:02 AM
Member
 
highmr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
2 subs with 1 sub output from your amp doesn't require a MiniDSP (although those could be good for other things).


Use the "line in" input, not LFE, so that they "delay/phase" knobs are active.
Set the crossover to the max (120hz), and use the receiver's crossover setting, instead.
With the help if the mic and REW, tune the delay and gain on each sub. (This can be tricky.)




More details: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/phase1.html
Yes, I plan to try to get them dialed in without miniDSP initially by having phase and delay active on at least one of the subs.

LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2 ........ Subwoofers: Rhythmik D15SE, Hsu VTF-2 MK4
Receiver: Denon 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80 .................... TV: Panasonic TC-50PU54
highmr is offline  
post #16394 of 16401 Old Yesterday, 07:06 AM
Member
 
highmr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Those steps sound like good advice.

I just realized you were using two different models of subs. That can be tricky, since there may be frequency-dependent phase differences between the subs. So, even if you match the phase at the crossover frequency, the subs might cancel at other frequencies.

It might be good, though.

If your frequency response is worse with 2 subs than with 1, and you aren't able to fix it, you could try playing with the various filter settings, until you find one that works best.
Yes, it could be trickier, but maybe more entertaining to try to get to work. If I end up with a notable hole in the FR with the two that is better with each one individually, that would tell me that I am having this issue and need to keep experimenting.

LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2 ........ Subwoofers: Rhythmik D15SE, Hsu VTF-2 MK4
Receiver: Denon 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80 .................... TV: Panasonic TC-50PU54
highmr is offline  
post #16395 of 16401 Old Yesterday, 07:07 AM
Member
 
highmr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
What is being discussed is level matching. Set each sub to around 73 db at the main listening position. Then run autocalibration. Gain matching is done with identical subs. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817
Thanks, I was confused on this difference. I will check that thread before I match either way.

LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2 ........ Subwoofers: Rhythmik D15SE, Hsu VTF-2 MK4
Receiver: Denon 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80 .................... TV: Panasonic TC-50PU54
highmr is offline  
post #16396 of 16401 Old Yesterday, 07:34 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Go to the Sweetwater site and download the CutSheet and the manual. It is a two-channel (stereo) unit with input, low output, and high output jacks for each channel. Each channel has input gain, crossover frequency, and output gain controls to allow you to match the low and high output levels. The 40 Hz low cut (high pass) filter you do not use for this application. You can also configure it to be a three-way mono unit and that is probably what is confusing. The front panel has two rows at the bottom; the top is mono (three-way crossover) operation, and the bottom row is when you use it as a stereo unit. The back panel also has two rows, but the one at the top is for stereo and the row at the bottom is for mono. If you only have one sub you will use it in stereo but sum the L/R inputs (switch on the back). I use mine in stereo since I have two subs. The Mode switch has the labels and a switch that determines which mode you are in.

The CutSheet lays it all out and the manual goes into more detail.

HTH - Don
I have a quick question. Why would I choose on the DBX 223sx crossover to engage the "Sum the Low Frequencies" option? The DBX will be connected to the Rythmik using both the Left and Right RCA low frequency outputs to the subwoofer amp panels Line In RCA inputs. Why wouldn't I let the right and left channel send its independent audio signal to the subwoofer? Is there an audio advantage to summing rather than independent signals?
Cingulate Gyrus is online now  
post #16397 of 16401 Old Yesterday, 07:51 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Go to the Sweetwater site and download the CutSheet and the manual. It is a two-channel (stereo) unit with input, low output, and high output jacks for each channel. Each channel has input gain, crossover frequency, and output gain controls to allow you to match the low and high output levels. The 40 Hz low cut (high pass) filter you do not use for this application. You can also configure it to be a three-way mono unit and that is probably what is confusing. The front panel has two rows at the bottom; the top is mono (three-way crossover) operation, and the bottom row is when you use it as a stereo unit. The back panel also has two rows, but the one at the top is for stereo and the row at the bottom is for mono. If you only have one sub you will use it in stereo but sum the L/R inputs (switch on the back). I use mine in stereo since I have two subs. The Mode switch has the labels and a switch that determines which mode you are in.

The CutSheet lays it all out and the manual goes into more detail.

HTH - Don
One more question. If I do use LF Sum option on the crossover does that mean that Channel 2's XLR output connector is not used? I take it that LF summed will mean that both Left and Right output audio signals are combined; and the total audio signal will be sent to Channel 1's XLR output only.
Cingulate Gyrus is online now  
post #16398 of 16401 Old Yesterday, 12:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
rcohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cingulate Gyrus View Post
One more question. If I do use LF Sum option on the crossover does that mean that Channel 2's XLR output connector is not used? I take it that LF summed will mean that both Left and Right output audio signals are combined; and the total audio signal will be sent to Channel 1's XLR output only.
It sounds like it's talking about running a mono sub signal or a stereo sub signal. If you run 2 signals to the same sub, they just get mixed (summed) together in the sub. I'd go mono to keep it simple, but it shouldn't make a difference.
Cingulate Gyrus likes this.
rcohen is online now  
post #16399 of 16401 Old Yesterday, 03:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 5,933
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 240
+1.

With a single sub you either do the summing in the crossover and run one cable to the sub, or run two cables and sum them in the sub. Probably no difference sonically, just how many cables you want to run. I actually have my subs set up as a stereo pair. I am thinking seriously of adding another one or two subs to deal with some room nulls and those will use the summed output, or I will sum in the suub or with an external summer (latter two options more likely as I don't want to add another crossover unit), or maybe just use the regular sub output from my AVR.
Cingulate Gyrus likes this.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
post #16400 of 16401 Old Yesterday, 06:20 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 21
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
+1.

With a single sub you either do the summing in the crossover and run one cable to the sub, or run two cables and sum them in the sub. Probably no difference sonically, just how many cables you want to run. I actually have my subs set up as a stereo pair. I am thinking seriously of adding another one or two subs to deal with some room nulls and those will use the summed output, or I will sum in the suub or with an external summer (latter two options more likely as I don't want to add another crossover unit), or maybe just use the regular sub output from my AVR.
OK. I will run a single cable from the crossover to the sub. Do you use an audio line splitter (Y connector) so that both RCA inputs on the Rythmik amp panel receive the summed audio signal?
Cingulate Gyrus is online now  
post #16401 of 16401 Old Yesterday, 06:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 5,933
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 240
No. Summing the inputs provides more gain so if, when you set it up, the gain knob is set very high, then you can use a Y and drive both inputs. Chances are you will not need it.
Cingulate Gyrus likes this.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off