Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 547 - AVS Forum
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post #16381 of 16664 Old 07-27-2014, 10:45 PM
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^^ say what? Sorry I am not following.
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post #16382 of 16664 Old 07-28-2014, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by highmr View Post
Joined the Rhythmik owner group with a D15SE. Room is a quite large open format kitchen and family room (although partially broken by a protruding fireplace). WxDxH = 36'x26'x12', and there are open hallways attached. Subfloor is concrete foundation, with a mix of stone tile and carpet. The width of the partial alcove where the speakers are actually located is 15' (D and H the same as above). Previously we had a single Hsu VTF-2 MK4 (formerly in a smaller room). I understand a single subwoofer such as that Hsu should be overwhelmed by that room, but I honestly did not notice any issues. We typically listen to music at about -20 and Blu-Ray at about -10, with Audyssey MultEq and DEQ turned on. I selected the D15SE because the FV15HPSE seemed to large (from a room appearance standpoint), and even compared to the sealed E15 and F15 models, the taller, square D15 is more furniture like. I do really like the piano black. Eventually I may get a matching or similar Rhythmik and a receiver with XT32 and subEQ, but I will try to make this work for a year or so. I've ordered a UMIK-1 mike and plan to use the REW software to compare the subs and to optimize their combined placement and settings, understanding that it is more difficult without the subEQ in the receiver. Initial plan for settings is to emphasize high damping in both, and to use the max extension setting in the Hsu to try to be somewhat similar in FR (as much as is possible considering it is 12"). My first goal is music of all kinds, only focusing on movie and volume performance if I actually notice an issue. Suggestions are welcome.
Let us know when you get your mic and REW up and running. It will be very interesting to see how both subs interact with one another.

Receiver - Denon 1713 soon to be replaced by a Denon 4311
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #16383 of 16664 Old 07-28-2014, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by coli View Post
Just want to share something I just discovered... on my AVR, apparently all the pre-outs share the same power, upon disconnecting my left/right pre-outs (switched to avr l/r speaker), all of sudden there is so much more dynamic bass now.
That shouldn't happen.

You might be having problems with cancellation.
Set your left/right to small, and make sure you have the delay/distance set so that it doesn't cancel at the crossover frequency.
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post #16384 of 16664 Old 07-28-2014, 06:41 AM
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post #16385 of 16664 Old 07-28-2014, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by coli View Post
Just want to share something I just discovered... on my AVR, apparently all the pre-outs share the same power, upon disconnecting my left/right pre-outs (switched to avr l/r speaker), all of sudden there is so much more dynamic bass now.
Just to be clear, are you saying that using the receiver's builtin amplifier is giving more dynamic bass than using the pre-outs and an external amplifier?
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post #16386 of 16664 Old 07-28-2014, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by highmr View Post
... I've ordered a UMIK-1 mike and plan to use the REW software to compare the subs and to optimize their combined placement and settings, understanding that it is more difficult without the subEQ in the receiver. Initial plan for settings is to emphasize high damping in both, and to use the max extension setting in the Hsu to try to be somewhat similar in FR (as much as is possible considering it is 12"). My first goal is music of all kinds, only focusing on movie and volume performance if I actually notice an issue. Suggestions are welcome.
If you're interested in getting both subs to work together, the Denon AVR-2310 has a single sub pre-out. Audyssey MultiEQ will set a single level and distance setting to both subs for a combined response. So the key is setting up of the HSU and Rythmik prior to running Audyssey.

You might want to consider gain matching the subs so that there is equal power output for each sub with respect to the Main Listening Position based on reference level that Audyssey will run at (75dB). This will minimize one sub working too hard while the other just sits there humming along.

An external box such as the MiniDSP (2x4) between the sub pre-out and the the subs is another consideration. You might be interested on the write-up done by AVS member neutro in the following thread here: Tutorial: Dual sub integration using the MiniDSP as it should give some ideas on what can be done in a dual sub set-up.

Placement of the subs is the key in getting smooth bass over a larger sweet spot. Have fun along the way and post back results if you can. There are quite a few clever people who hang around AVS that can provide advise.

Maranatz NR1504, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, LG LW6500, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 remote, KEF E301, MiniDSP(2x4), Rythmik F12G
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post #16387 of 16664 Old 07-28-2014, 05:49 PM
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2 subs with 1 sub output from your amp doesn't require a MiniDSP (although those could be good for other things).


Use the "line in" input, not LFE, so that they "delay/phase" knobs are active.
Set the crossover to the max (120hz), and use the receiver's crossover setting, instead.
With the help if the mic and REW, tune the delay and gain on each sub. (This can be tricky.)




More details: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/phase1.html
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post #16388 of 16664 Old 07-28-2014, 07:17 PM
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^rcohen,

Great suggestion! Haven't thought about this trick and save $100 on the MiniDSP - just thought the (2x4) would make it easier / more accurate in setting up two subs. The (2x4) also has the ability to add some PEQ filters and/or a low shelf to taste.

Thinking aloud about the general set-up method (after sub placement has is decided) for multiple subs being:

(1) Set the phase angle for both subs to zero then gain match the subs first.

(2) Run Audyssey to determine the distances of each sub individually.

(3) Get the delta between the further away and nearest sub. This will determine how much delay is needed at the selected crossover.

(4) Add some delay (phase) to the nearest sub so that it can be time aligned with the furthest.

(5) Re-run Audyssey with both subs to get the combined response for level and distance.

(6) Check with REW that low frequency response is flat. Check also that the crossover is smooth.

Maranatz NR1504, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, LG LW6500, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 remote, KEF E301, MiniDSP(2x4), Rythmik F12G
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post #16389 of 16664 Old 07-28-2014, 07:31 PM
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Those steps sound like good advice.

I just realized you were using two different models of subs. That can be tricky, since there may be frequency-dependent phase differences between the subs. So, even if you match the phase at the crossover frequency, the subs might cancel at other frequencies.

It might be good, though.

If your frequency response is worse with 2 subs than with 1, and you aren't able to fix it, you could try playing with the various filter settings, until you find one that works best.
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post #16390 of 16664 Old 07-28-2014, 08:20 PM
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What is being discussed is level matching. Set each sub to around 73 db at the main listening position. Then run autocalibration. Gain matching is done with identical subs. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
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post #16391 of 16664 Old 07-29-2014, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Let us know when you get your mic and REW up and running. It will be very interesting to see how both subs interact with one another.
I will. I'm glad this thread doesn't get too particular about slightly off topic room optimization vs. just the sub. More for curiosity, I'll probably get REW curves of each one separately in its preferred position, then together, then decide if I need to move them or play with phase or delay on either.

LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2 ........ Subwoofers: Rhythmik D15SE, Hsu VTF-2 MK4
Receiver: Denon 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80 .................... TV: Panasonic TC-50PU54
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post #16392 of 16664 Old 07-29-2014, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
If you're interested in getting both subs to work together, the Denon AVR-2310 has a single sub pre-out. Audyssey MultiEQ will set a single level and distance setting to both subs for a combined response. So the key is setting up of the HSU and Rythmik prior to running Audyssey.

You might want to consider gain matching the subs so that there is equal power output for each sub with respect to the Main Listening Position based on reference level that Audyssey will run at (75dB). This will minimize one sub working too hard while the other just sits there humming along.

An external box such as the MiniDSP (2x4) between the sub pre-out and the the subs is another consideration. You might be interested on the write-up done by AVS member neutro in the following thread here: Tutorial: Dual sub integration using the MiniDSP as it should give some ideas on what can be done in a dual sub set-up.

Placement of the subs is the key in getting smooth bass over a larger sweet spot. Have fun along the way and post back results if you can. There are quite a few clever people who hang around AVS that can provide advise.
I just received the Umik-1 mike and longer subwoofer cables and a splitter so that I can do initial setup with the 2310. Based on this thread I looked at the miniDSP and it looks interesting. I'll try to do without it first, but I think it would solve some of my problems without having to get XT32.

LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2 ........ Subwoofers: Rhythmik D15SE, Hsu VTF-2 MK4
Receiver: Denon 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80 .................... TV: Panasonic TC-50PU54
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post #16393 of 16664 Old 07-29-2014, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
2 subs with 1 sub output from your amp doesn't require a MiniDSP (although those could be good for other things).


Use the "line in" input, not LFE, so that they "delay/phase" knobs are active.
Set the crossover to the max (120hz), and use the receiver's crossover setting, instead.
With the help if the mic and REW, tune the delay and gain on each sub. (This can be tricky.)




More details: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/phase1.html
Yes, I plan to try to get them dialed in without miniDSP initially by having phase and delay active on at least one of the subs.

LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2 ........ Subwoofers: Rhythmik D15SE, Hsu VTF-2 MK4
Receiver: Denon 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80 .................... TV: Panasonic TC-50PU54
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post #16394 of 16664 Old 07-29-2014, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Those steps sound like good advice.

I just realized you were using two different models of subs. That can be tricky, since there may be frequency-dependent phase differences between the subs. So, even if you match the phase at the crossover frequency, the subs might cancel at other frequencies.

It might be good, though.

If your frequency response is worse with 2 subs than with 1, and you aren't able to fix it, you could try playing with the various filter settings, until you find one that works best.
Yes, it could be trickier, but maybe more entertaining to try to get to work. If I end up with a notable hole in the FR with the two that is better with each one individually, that would tell me that I am having this issue and need to keep experimenting.

LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2 ........ Subwoofers: Rhythmik D15SE, Hsu VTF-2 MK4
Receiver: Denon 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80 .................... TV: Panasonic TC-50PU54
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post #16395 of 16664 Old 07-29-2014, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
What is being discussed is level matching. Set each sub to around 73 db at the main listening position. Then run autocalibration. Gain matching is done with identical subs. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817
Thanks, I was confused on this difference. I will check that thread before I match either way.

LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2 ........ Subwoofers: Rhythmik D15SE, Hsu VTF-2 MK4
Receiver: Denon 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80 .................... TV: Panasonic TC-50PU54
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post #16396 of 16664 Old 07-29-2014, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Go to the Sweetwater site and download the CutSheet and the manual. It is a two-channel (stereo) unit with input, low output, and high output jacks for each channel. Each channel has input gain, crossover frequency, and output gain controls to allow you to match the low and high output levels. The 40 Hz low cut (high pass) filter you do not use for this application. You can also configure it to be a three-way mono unit and that is probably what is confusing. The front panel has two rows at the bottom; the top is mono (three-way crossover) operation, and the bottom row is when you use it as a stereo unit. The back panel also has two rows, but the one at the top is for stereo and the row at the bottom is for mono. If you only have one sub you will use it in stereo but sum the L/R inputs (switch on the back). I use mine in stereo since I have two subs. The Mode switch has the labels and a switch that determines which mode you are in.

The CutSheet lays it all out and the manual goes into more detail.

HTH - Don
I have a quick question. Why would I choose on the DBX 223sx crossover to engage the "Sum the Low Frequencies" option? The DBX will be connected to the Rythmik using both the Left and Right RCA low frequency outputs to the subwoofer amp panels Line In RCA inputs. Why wouldn't I let the right and left channel send its independent audio signal to the subwoofer? Is there an audio advantage to summing rather than independent signals?
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post #16397 of 16664 Old 07-29-2014, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Go to the Sweetwater site and download the CutSheet and the manual. It is a two-channel (stereo) unit with input, low output, and high output jacks for each channel. Each channel has input gain, crossover frequency, and output gain controls to allow you to match the low and high output levels. The 40 Hz low cut (high pass) filter you do not use for this application. You can also configure it to be a three-way mono unit and that is probably what is confusing. The front panel has two rows at the bottom; the top is mono (three-way crossover) operation, and the bottom row is when you use it as a stereo unit. The back panel also has two rows, but the one at the top is for stereo and the row at the bottom is for mono. If you only have one sub you will use it in stereo but sum the L/R inputs (switch on the back). I use mine in stereo since I have two subs. The Mode switch has the labels and a switch that determines which mode you are in.

The CutSheet lays it all out and the manual goes into more detail.

HTH - Don
One more question. If I do use LF Sum option on the crossover does that mean that Channel 2's XLR output connector is not used? I take it that LF summed will mean that both Left and Right output audio signals are combined; and the total audio signal will be sent to Channel 1's XLR output only.
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post #16398 of 16664 Old 07-29-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Cingulate Gyrus View Post
One more question. If I do use LF Sum option on the crossover does that mean that Channel 2's XLR output connector is not used? I take it that LF summed will mean that both Left and Right output audio signals are combined; and the total audio signal will be sent to Channel 1's XLR output only.
It sounds like it's talking about running a mono sub signal or a stereo sub signal. If you run 2 signals to the same sub, they just get mixed (summed) together in the sub. I'd go mono to keep it simple, but it shouldn't make a difference.
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post #16399 of 16664 Old 07-29-2014, 03:21 PM
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+1.

With a single sub you either do the summing in the crossover and run one cable to the sub, or run two cables and sum them in the sub. Probably no difference sonically, just how many cables you want to run. I actually have my subs set up as a stereo pair. I am thinking seriously of adding another one or two subs to deal with some room nulls and those will use the summed output, or I will sum in the suub or with an external summer (latter two options more likely as I don't want to add another crossover unit), or maybe just use the regular sub output from my AVR.
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post #16400 of 16664 Old 07-29-2014, 06:20 PM
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+1.

With a single sub you either do the summing in the crossover and run one cable to the sub, or run two cables and sum them in the sub. Probably no difference sonically, just how many cables you want to run. I actually have my subs set up as a stereo pair. I am thinking seriously of adding another one or two subs to deal with some room nulls and those will use the summed output, or I will sum in the suub or with an external summer (latter two options more likely as I don't want to add another crossover unit), or maybe just use the regular sub output from my AVR.
OK. I will run a single cable from the crossover to the sub. Do you use an audio line splitter (Y connector) so that both RCA inputs on the Rythmik amp panel receive the summed audio signal?
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post #16401 of 16664 Old 07-29-2014, 06:31 PM
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No. Summing the inputs provides more gain so if, when you set it up, the gain knob is set very high, then you can use a Y and drive both inputs. Chances are you will not need it.
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post #16402 of 16664 Old 07-30-2014, 11:46 PM
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No, I think you are thinking of someone else, I haven't emailed you yet. Here is a post to give a time line :

Simple Rythmik retrofit

Here's a pic of it:

Is that a pair of the newest Cardas binding posts I see on the side of the amp box?
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post #16403 of 16664 Old 07-31-2014, 07:16 AM
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Is that a pair of the newest Cardas binding posts I see on the side of the amp box?
They are the Cardas Patented posts, I did this box back in 2009. Love the binding posts, use them every chance I can. I prefer either bare wire or spade connectors, and these post really clamp down.

I just upgraded one of my systems with KEF LS50s, and the only criticism I have of the speakers is that I can't upgrade these to the patented post (without butchering up the cabinets). Just can't get my cables as tight on the OEM posts as I would be able to on the Cardas ones.
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post #16404 of 16664 Old 07-31-2014, 08:58 AM
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They are the Cardas Patented posts, I did this box back in 2009. Love the binding posts, use them every chance I can. I prefer either bare wire or spade connectors, and these post really clamp down.

I just upgraded one of my systems with KEF LS50s, and the only criticism I have of the speakers is that I can't upgrade these to the patented post (without butchering up the cabinets). Just can't get my cables as tight on the OEM posts as I would be able to on the Cardas ones.
I love them too. I'm looking for something else to put them on!
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post #16405 of 16664 Old 07-31-2014, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by NapalmV5

id be more interested in rythmik mains/towers for clean/tight/accurate full range

sealed/servo/active mains lol how about it brian ??


Well, I did have a project like that. The idea is to extend the servo operation to midrange driver while keeping the tweeter nonservo. I have done everything I could to reduce the voice coil inductance, including an alumimun phase plug which may turn out to be a bad idea. Just demonstrated the system at Danny's house (GR Research) before holiday. Since the midrange can also be used as nonservo, I have design a passive xover for the midrange drivers so that they have the same response as in servo mode. This makes the comparison of servo vs nonservo easier. To make the long story short, I do think the improvement on dynamics such as drums is very audible. However, there are some resonances above 500hz that keeps them from being perfectly flat and Danny can easily point them out even before we proceeded to measurement. It is a type of parasitic resonances that servo cannot correct. Because those resonances showed up only after I put them in enclosures, I do suspect it arises from enclosure's air spring and the air gap between phase plug and voice coil. In short, the box is technically not sealed at all. I will try out different enclosure type such as TL or vented box so those 5-1/4 midrange driver can play into 50hz/40hz without a sub. While it may not play very low, it does make the assessment of merits easier.
Interesting! I've never heard of a servo midrange before.

So, are you saying there is an audible improvement relative to passive, or even an audible improvement over active?

An active servo, ultra low distortion, high SPL speaker designed to integrate well with Rythmik subs could be very cool.

It's weird that so many speaker companies focus on full range speakers when people who really care about bass use good subs. Most of your money goes to capability that you never use.
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post #16406 of 16664 Old 07-31-2014, 10:53 PM
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Interesting! I've never heard of a servo midrange before.

So, are you saying there is an audible improvement relative to passive, or even an audible improvement over active?

An active servo, ultra low distortion, high SPL speaker designed to integrate well with Rythmik subs could be very cool.

It's weird that so many speaker companies focus on full range speakers when people who really care about bass use good subs. Most of your money goes to capability that you never use.
But many (most?) audiophiles are pretty leery of subs, though there are very good arguments for separating low frequency content from the mains even for music.
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post #16407 of 16664 Old 08-01-2014, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Go to the Sweetwater site and download the CutSheet and the manual. It is a two-channel (stereo) unit with input, low output, and high output jacks for each channel. Each channel has input gain, crossover frequency, and output gain controls to allow you to match the low and high output levels. The 40 Hz low cut (high pass) filter you do not use for this application. You can also configure it to be a three-way mono unit and that is probably what is confusing. The front panel has two rows at the bottom; the top is mono (three-way crossover) operation, and the bottom row is when you use it as a stereo unit. The back panel also has two rows, but the one at the top is for stereo and the row at the bottom is for mono. If you only have one sub you will use it in stereo but sum the L/R inputs (switch on the back). I use mine in stereo since I have two subs. The Mode switch has the labels and a switch that determines which mode you are in.

The CutSheet lays it all out and the manual goes into more detail.

HTH - Don
I know you guys would understand. Last night I hooked about the DBX active crossover in between my pre-amp and amp. The highs go to the maggies and the lows to the Rythmik E15HP. It now sounds sooo sweet. I had trouble sleeping last night. I would wake up thinking how awesome the music sounds. I can't wait to get home from work and listen some more. Thanks Don for teaching me about this stuff.
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post #16408 of 16664 Old 08-01-2014, 11:37 AM
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NP. Enjoy!
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16409 of 16664 Old 08-01-2014, 11:48 AM
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hi guys, what kind of sound meter are you guys using for youre rythmik subs?? is there any cheap or decent meter that you guys can recommend from ebay?thanks

Energy RC 70 fronts
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post #16410 of 16664 Old 08-01-2014, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post
hi guys, what kind of sound meter are you guys using for youre rythmik subs?? is there any cheap or decent meter that you guys can recommend from ebay?thanks
I've been using an old Radio Shack 33-2055 digital spl meter for years and years. It's a discontinued product but I think you can still find them on ebay.

If the RS meter were to ever die on me, I probably replace it with a "verified" Galaxy CM-140 from Cross Spectrum Labs...they aren't exactly cheap, but they're not prohibitively expensive, IMO.


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; Rythmik F12 (x2); Denon AVR-4520CI; D-Sonic M2-800S; Oppo BDP93; Panny 65VT50; Schiit Audio Valhalla; Sennheiser HD600; BJC everywhere
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