Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 548 - AVS Forum
First ... 546  547  548 549  550  ... Last
Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread
DonH50's Avatar DonH50 02:46 PM 08-01-2014
I am using an inexpensive dbx analog crossover in my system. I toyed with the idea of using a mininDSP and will get one someday, but decided it was too much hassle just for a crossover. If I was designing a speaker system or using a multiway crossover and optimizing time and frequency response I'd get it for a crossover, but just to emulate an analog crossover seems like overkill.

I have not used the Rythmik HPF, IMO probably not worth the effort if you are going to use the same crossover. The miniDSP has decent opamps but you have to get the balanced version to have enough drive for most applications. You are also adding another A/D-D/A conversion in the process so it is more than just op-amps. If you need it to generate room compensation EQ or need more flexible filters it is great, but if all you need is a HPF and are not changing slope or crossover frequency, chances are the Rythmik is good enough. Brian talked about the built-in HPF someplace in this thread.

BDP24's Avatar BDP24 02:12 AM 08-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cingulate Gyrus View Post
I know you guys would understand. Last night I hooked about the DBX active crossover in between my pre-amp and amp. The highs go to the maggies and the lows to the Rythmik E15HP. It now sounds sooo sweet. I had trouble sleeping last night. I would wake up thinking how awesome the music sounds. I can't wait to get home from work and listen some more. Thanks Don for teaching me about this stuff.

That's what it's all about! The combination of a speaker like any of the Maggies (or other high-performance/moderate cost panels, like the Eminent Technology LFT-8b's) mated with a Rythmik or GR research sub or two is THE way to go. The combination outperforms many higher priced "full-range" speakers. Buy your main speakers for their qualities above 80-100Hz, ignoring their shortcomings below those frequencies. The Servo sub/s will outperform the passive woofers in just about any speaker you can name. The Audiophile's negative opinion of subs, particularly with panel speakers, is based on conventional subs, not the over-performing Servo subs. IMO!
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 06:35 AM 08-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post
MiniDsp vs Rythmik built in HPF

I am currently running a 2 channel system, right now, I am using the built in HPF filter on the Rythmik's plate amp (80hz, slope ?). Assuming that I would also choose the same 80hz cutoff, I am wondering if the Minidsp would sound better than the Rythmiks HPF, basically the main comparison would be the quality of the OP amps employed in both crossovers, if its better, is it worth the $200 (shipping, taxes etc, I am in Asia ) it would cost me to get it ?

Thanks
I can't imagine that it would sound better if you use it for the same thing. If you use it to do something different, that's another matter.

I believe the MiniDSPs have EQ capability, which could make a big difference.

It's great to hear that people are having good luck with external crossovers, although I think using a pre-amp with EQ and bass management would be more straightforward. It also allows you to avoid another AD/DA conversion in the MiniDSP.

Another great route is to use a PC source with JRiver, and use flac files. JRiver is awesomely flexible when it comes to things like bass management and EQ, among other very cool features. I recently added a cheap and tiny Gigabyte Brix computer to my bedroom as my source, and it's awesome! It easily slaved to the JRiver in my home theater, and my whole audio and video library was there instantly.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...=-1&isNodeId=1

http://www.jriver.com
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 06:41 AM 08-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cingulate Gyrus View Post
I know you guys would understand. Last night I hooked about the DBX active crossover in between my pre-amp and amp. The highs go to the maggies and the lows to the Rythmik E15HP. It now sounds sooo sweet. I had trouble sleeping last night. I would wake up thinking how awesome the music sounds. I can't wait to get home from work and listen some more. Thanks Don for teaching me about this stuff.
What crossover frequency did you end up going with? I'd recommend experimenting between 60 and 120hz to see what works best with your speakers and room.
DonH50's Avatar DonH50 08:08 AM 08-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I can't imagine that it would sound better if you use it for the same thing. If you use it to do something different, that's another matter.

I believe the MiniDSPs have EQ capability, which could make a big difference.

It's great to hear that people are having good luck with external crossovers, although I think using a pre-amp with EQ and bass management would be more straightforward. It also allows you to avoid another AD/DA conversion in the MiniDSP.
All good points, albeit the same ones I made two posts up... However, most stereo preamps do not include bass management, and EQ is not the same as a crossover. EQ tends to be much more broad and slower (lower slope) than a crossover, and without a crossover you cannot split LF and HF outputs to drive the mains and sub(s). They perform two different functions. What would be nice is if more preamps and AVRs included crossovers. I suspect the market is far too small and the group of people that would actually implement it smaller so just not worth it. Wouldn't think it be a large cost in an AVR since the DSP is already in there and they already allow "passive biamping"...
caloyzki's Avatar caloyzki 09:47 AM 08-02-2014
Hello ryhtmik lovers,need some of your help. Owning lv12r and just purchased my 2nd sub mirage omni 12. And also bought spl meter. Question. Before i run my audysey i want to use my spl to get each sub to 75db then run full adysey. Should i seat from my MLP and hold the spl to get the 75db from each sub?or spl should be near from the sub?thanks.
DonH50's Avatar DonH50 12:26 PM 08-02-2014
SPL should be measured at the listening position.

I have Rythmik F12's and several other subs in the house, including the Mirage. I was not at all happy with the Mirage, let us know how it works out.
niccolo's Avatar niccolo 03:55 PM 08-02-2014
I'm currently using my Denon X2000 to cross over between my Rythmik FV15HP and my Focal speakers at 60 hz. When I run these tests tones (below), the sub seems to be producing content up to somewhere above 100 hz, based on vibration felt in the sub surround. Is it possible the test tones have lower harmonics? Or the crossover is that gradual? Or this is just an illusion?

http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_subwooferharmonicdistortion.php
DonH50's Avatar DonH50 08:23 PM 08-02-2014
Based on vibration? Not sure how accurate a measure that is... In any event, crossovers are not perfect brick-wall filters that instantly go to zero on either side. A second-order crossover is about half as loud an octave away from the crossover frequency; a fourth-order slope about one-quarter as loud an octave away.
Cingulate Gyrus 08:30 PM 08-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I can't imagine that it would sound better if you use it for the same thing. If you use it to do something different, that's another matter.

I believe the MiniDSPs have EQ capability, which could make a big difference.

It's great to hear that people are having good luck with external crossovers, although I think using a pre-amp with EQ and bass management would be more straightforward. It also allows you to avoid another AD/DA conversion in the MiniDSP.

Another great route is to use a PC source with JRiver, and use flac files. JRiver is awesomely flexible when it comes to things like bass management and EQ, among other very cool features. I recently added a cheap and tiny Gigabyte Brix computer to my bedroom as my source, and it's awesome! It easily slaved to the JRiver in my home theater, and my whole audio and video library was there instantly.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...=-1&isNodeId=1

http://www.jriver.com

I am with you brother. I use Jriver and an external hard drive with a mixture of high resolution and standard 44 by 16 resolution files. i feed it to the Emotiva Stealth preamp. DonH50 turned me on to the DBX active cross over which feeds the Maggies (1.7) and the Rythmik E15HP. With JRiver I can EQ the files just to my liking.
Attached: download.jpg (4.9 KB) 
BDP24's Avatar BDP24 05:22 AM 08-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post
MiniDsp vs Rythmik built in HPF

I am currently running a 2 channel system, right now, I am using the built in HPF filter on the Rythmik's plate amp (80hz, slope ?). Assuming that I would also choose the same 80hz cutoff, I am wondering if the Minidsp would sound better than the Rythmiks HPF, basically the main comparison would be the quality of the OP amps employed in both crossovers, if its better, is it worth the $200 (shipping, taxes etc, I am in Asia ) it would cost me to get it ?

Thanks
There is a Marchand passive cross-over on eBay right now, model XM46SB for $130. It is a high-pass only filter, set at 80hz-24dB/octave. If you use 80Hz/24dB low-pass settings on your Rythmik sub, you'll have a symmetrical cross-over using the two together. I would have bought it, but it has RCA jacks, and I need XLR's. Whether or not it has the same 2134 op-amps as the Rythmik x/o I don't know, but Marchand is known for the excellent sound quality of their cross-overs. Worth taking a look at.
DonH50's Avatar DonH50 09:04 AM 08-03-2014
Their XM series uses BB (TI now) OPA2134's IIRC. However, the XM46 series is a passive (LC) design: http://www.marchandelec.com/xm46.html

Decades before being introduced to the wonderful world of "passive bi-amping" as implemented by AVRs, that is what I had in mind for passive bi-amping.

HTH - Don
Bond 007's Avatar Bond 007 10:23 AM 08-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Their XM series uses BB (TI now) OPA2134's IIRC. However, the XM46 series is a passive (LC) design: http://www.marchandelec.com/xm46.html

Decades before being introduced to the wonderful world of "passive bi-amping" as implemented by AVRs, that is what I had in mind for passive bi-amping.

HTH - Don
You consider biamping your speakers with the AVR worthwhile?
Cingulate Gyrus 11:14 AM 08-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
What crossover frequency did you end up going with? I'd recommend experimenting between 60 and 120hz to see what works best with your speakers and room.
Over the past 2 days I have played around with the crossover. As of today I am using 58hz. I know I am a little low on the selected crossover, but to my ears this setting sounds most satisfying. The Maggies are rated to a low end of 40hz. Maybe the 58hz setting is appropriate after all (being about an octave to 1.5 octave above the low end of their range). Initially, I had the subwoofer at the rooms back wall in the right corner of the room. Despite the low crossover, I was perceiving woofer location. So I moved it to being at the right of the main speakers (in the room's right corner). Maybe because of this change in location I also came to realize how critical the phase control is on the Rythmik. In the new room location I was hearing the beat from the subwoofer a little late compared to the other instruments. I came to realize how critical the phase control is on the Rythmik. I needed to dial it in so that the Rythmik was "in synch" with the rest of the instrumentation. Any other tips from folks would be greatly appreciated.
Attached: Location.jpg (9.5 KB) 
dazzdax's Avatar dazzdax 04:38 PM 08-03-2014
Hi all, does any of you have experience with mating electrostatic speakers and Rhytmik subwoofers?
Do you have some recommendations regarding placement of the subwoofers, subwoofer level and crossover setting (cut off frequency and slope)?
Is it possible to get tight and "controlled" bass that matches the electrostatic midrange and treble?

Chris
DonH50's Avatar DonH50 05:32 PM 08-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
You consider biamping your speakers with the AVR worthwhile?
No. Unless using the AVR to drive a line-level crossover to separate amps. While there are theoretical benefits, and some ardent followers, I consider passive bi-amping as implemented by AVRs a waste of time and money. Whatever benefits come from theory are in the mud in the real world. I am of the same opinion on bi-wiring, natch. I just do not see any practical real-world benefit to either. I have numerous posts elsewhere on AVS explaining my position, and of course there are a plethora of threads where many folk have posted their viewpoints pro and con. This is not the thread for it.

IMO etc. - Don
DonH50's Avatar DonH50 05:42 PM 08-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzdax View Post
Hi all, does any of you have experience with mating electrostatic speakers and Rhytmik subwoofers?
Do you have some recommendations regarding placement of the subwoofers, subwoofer level and crossover setting (cut off frequency and slope)?
Is it possible to get tight and "controlled" bass that matches the electrostatic midrange and treble?

Chris
Not specifically Rythmik and ESLs, but they mate fine with my Magnepans and several other people are using them with ESLs. My previous experience led me to conclude only servo designs, or extremely well-designed conventional subs with a darn good amp driving them, would match the performance of my panels (ESL, ribbon, or planer dynamic, have not owned but have heard them all and had at least one of each flavor in my system for a time in the primordial past). The thing that makes most subs not work well with panels has nothing to do with "speed" (and thank you for not mentioning that!); it has to do with distortion and the ability of the sub to quickly start and stop without overshoot and ringing in response to the driving signal. Servo control is an excellent way to provide low distortion and very good driver (cone) control, much better than the vast majority of non-servo designs.

As for placement and technical details, that would depend upon your panels and your room. As evidenced in my other posts, I am not a fan of letting panel speakers handle very LF material. They (with very few exceptions) are just not designed for it and exhibit high distortion and compressed dynamic range as a result. I much prefer to roll off the LF to the panels and let the sub do its thing. My rule of thumb is to cross over at least 1/2 to 1 octave above the speaker's stated -3 dB frequency, and I prefer a sharp rolloff. The conventional Linkwitz-Reilly crossover matches gain and phase at the crossover point while providing 24 dB/octave up and down. That is what I am using in my system.

FWIWFM, IME, IMO, YMMV, etc. - Don
steveting99's Avatar steveting99 06:59 PM 08-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cingulate Gyrus View Post
...Initially, I had the subwoofer at the rooms back wall in the right corner of the room. Despite the low crossover, I was perceiving woofer location. So I moved it to being at the right of the main speakers (in the room's right corner). Maybe because of this change in location I also came to realize how critical the phase control is on the Rythmik. In the new room location I was hearing the beat from the subwoofer a little late compared to the other instruments. I came to realize how critical the phase control is on the Rythmik. I needed to dial it in so that the Rythmik was "in synch" with the rest of the instrumentation. Any other tips from folks would be greatly appreciated.
Cingulate,

Look at post 16,132 Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread and the write-up (Dialing-in subwoofer when using AVR_Rythmik PEQ3 amplifiers.doc) that AVS member laulau did for a friend. I use this to setup and dial in the Rythmik F12G sub with the KEF E301 satellites.

If you're really interested in getting the bass right for your room, the last section called measuring and measurements with the link to AVS member Jerry Austin's guide to REW is a worthwhile read.
BDP24's Avatar BDP24 09:15 PM 08-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Their XM series uses BB (TI now) OPA2134's IIRC. However, the XM46 series is a passive (LC) design: http://www.marchandelec.com/xm46.html

Decades before being introduced to the wonderful world of "passive bi-amping" as implemented by AVRs, that is what I had in mind for passive bi-amping.

HTH - Don

Since both the Marchand XM46 and the Rythmik high-pass included in the A370 and H600 amps offer 24dB/octave filtering, you may as well use the x/o in the Rythmik sub. Since you already paid for it, it's free!
DonH50's Avatar DonH50 09:47 PM 08-03-2014
While I agree with sentiment, please note that I am not the one looking for a crossover, that would be qguy.

Also, the Marchand XM46-series crossovers are passive, there are no opamps in them. Marchand XM44-series (and presumably other) active crossovers use 2134 op-amps.
BDP24's Avatar BDP24 09:53 PM 08-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzdax View Post
Hi all, does any of you have experience with mating electrostatic speakers and Rhytmik subwoofers?
Do you have some recommendations regarding placement of the subwoofers, subwoofer level and crossover setting (cut off frequency and slope)?
Is it possible to get tight and "controlled" bass that matches the electrostatic midrange and treble?

Chris
Which ESL's do you own, Chris? There are ESL users on this forum who are very happy with sealed Rythmik subs in use with their speakers. There is another way to go with dipole speakers; Brian's collaborator at GR Research, Danny Richie, has a version of his 12" paper-cone Servo-woofer optimized for Open Baffle (OB) use. You use two of the woofers in a frame, facing in opposite directions and in opposing polarity. The sub's output is therefore similar, at certain frequencies, to that of panel speakers, dipole.


There is another speaker designer who is a proponent of OB subs by the name of Linkwitz. You may have heard of him! He designed, and builds and sells speakers with OB subs built in. They are very similar to the GR/Rythmik OB sub, but without Danny and Brian's excellent woofer and the Rythmik Servo circuitry and plate amp. The GR Research sub system is not offered as a finished product, but as a DIY package with two woofers and one Rythmik Servo plate amp (it is listed on the Rythmik DIY product page). Double that if you want stereo subs (a good idea if you're crossing-over above 80Hz or so). You can build the frame (plans for which are on the GR Research site), or have them built for you. There is also a woodworker/cabinet maker who is offering flat-pack (knock down, ready for assembly and finishing) H-frames on the GR Research AudioCircle forum. It makes a perfect stand for all models of Quad ESL's (in fact, there is a company in Europe---Gradient---who offered OB subs specifically for the Quad 63 in the 70's-80's, which were in fact designed to serve as stands for the 63's), which is how I use my W-frame variant of the H with Quad 57's.


In my opinion, the OB Servo-Sub is THE way to go with dipole speakers. Fans of OB subs cite their lack of box resonances as one reason for their very clean (some say lean, until they become accustomed to the OB sound. It is absolutely astonishing with standup bass and the lower registers of pianos) bass quality, but also their lack of room "loading", dissimilar from sealed subs. There is a penalty you pay for the sound quality, however: reduced output as you descend in frequency. Only you can decide if the sound quality an OB provides is worth the reduced output it costs. Or, you can go nuts and use the OB's down to, say, 40Hz, and then sealed subs below. It's only money!
BDP24's Avatar BDP24 10:00 PM 08-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
While I agree with sentiment, please note that I am not the one looking for a crossover, that would be qguy.

Also, the Marchand XM46-series crossovers are passive, there are no opamps in them. Marchand XM44-series (and presumably other) active crossovers use 2134 op-amps.
I know that (qguy is the one looking), ya big silly. Say, how does Marchand achieve 24dB/octave passively?!
BDP24's Avatar BDP24 10:06 PM 08-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
I know that, ya big silly. Say, how does Marchand achieve 24dB/octave passively?!
Ah, I see.....inductors and capacitors. How that design compares with active opamps would seem a good question.
Bond 007's Avatar Bond 007 10:54 PM 08-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
No. Unless using the AVR to drive a line-level crossover to separate amps. While there are theoretical benefits, and some ardent followers, I consider passive bi-amping as implemented by AVRs a waste of time and money. Whatever benefits come from theory are in the mud in the real world. I am of the same opinion on bi-wiring, natch. I just do not see any practical real-world benefit to either. I have numerous posts elsewhere on AVS explaining my position, and of course there are a plethora of threads where many folk have posted their viewpoints pro and con. This is not the thread for it.

IMO etc. - Don
I agree. I know you know your stuff so I was just wondering what you thought.
BDP24's Avatar BDP24 11:38 PM 08-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Not specifically Rythmik and ESLs, but they mate fine with my Magnepans and several other people are using them with ESLs. My previous experience led me to conclude only servo designs, or extremely well-designed conventional subs with a darn good amp driving them, would match the performance of my panels (ESL, ribbon, or planer dynamic, have not owned but have heard them all and had at least one of each flavor in my system for a time in the primordial past). The thing that makes most subs not work well with panels has nothing to do with "speed" (and thank you for not mentioning that!); it has to do with distortion and the ability of the sub to quickly start and stop without overshoot and ringing in response to the driving signal. Servo control is an excellent way to provide low distortion and very good driver (cone) control, much better than the vast majority of non-servo designs.

As for placement and technical details, that would depend upon your panels and your room. As evidenced in my other posts, I am not a fan of letting panel speakers handle very LF material. They (with very few exceptions) are just not designed for it and exhibit high distortion and compressed dynamic range as a result. I much prefer to roll off the LF to the panels and let the sub do its thing. My rule of thumb is to cross over at least 1/2 to 1 octave above the speaker's stated -3 dB frequency, and I prefer a sharp rolloff. The conventional Linkwitz-Reilly crossover matches gain and phase at the crossover point while providing 24 dB/octave up and down. That is what I am using in my system.

FWIWFM, IME, IMO, YMMV, etc. - Don
Did anyone else spot the contradiction? In the first paragraph: "has nothing to do with speed". Very next sentence: "it has to do with...the ability of the sub to quickly start and stop". Where I come from, quickly refers to speed! Don't fault Don---it's unavoidable.
niccolo's Avatar niccolo 01:20 AM 08-04-2014
My understanding is I'm supposed to run Audyssey in one-port mode on my FV15HP and then, if I choose, convert the sub to two-port mode, because running Audyssey in two-port mode may lead to boosting of the missing ultra-low frequencies. Is that right? Isn't it a problem because two-port mode produces different sound and Audyssey won't have optimized for that?
BigCoolJesus's Avatar BigCoolJesus 03:36 AM 08-04-2014
Any word on when some more F25's will be available? I have two in my room currently but thinking of adding two more.....

Or, what is the consensus on mixing sealed and ported subwoofers? Would adding two FV15HP's be a bad idea? Or maybe just two smaller F15HP's (sealed) to help smooth out response?

Thanks!
qguy's Avatar qguy 04:01 AM 08-04-2014
Thanks for all your response regarding the built in HPF vs Minidsp, I would stick with the built in HPF for now as it currently works and minidsp does not seem to offer me any more additional features that I need for now.
dazzdax's Avatar dazzdax 05:08 AM 08-04-2014
Don and BDP, thanks for your replies. I have Soundlab A-1 electrostatic speakers and also 4 Rhytmik F-15's.
I have tried to get the best blending of the two sytems, but until now I haven't succeeded.
The 12dB/octave I like most, not the 24dB/octave. My main speakers have a cut off at about 40Hz with a natural slope of 12dB/octave.
With the F-15's I'm I've set the low pass cut off at 80Hz with 12dB/octave slope. Subwoofer level is very low (4 clicks from zero).

Chris
enricoclaudio's Avatar enricoclaudio 05:44 AM 08-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Any word on when some more F25's will be available? I have two in my room currently but thinking of adding two more.....

Or, what is the consensus on mixing sealed and ported subwoofers? Would adding two FV15HP's be a bad idea? Or maybe just two smaller F15HP's (sealed) to help smooth out response?

Thanks!
We have some F25s coming in two weeks or so.
Tags: Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer
First ... 546  547  548 549  550  ... Last

Up
Mobile  Desktop