Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 552 - AVS Forum
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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread
bathes2051's Avatar bathes2051 09:17 PM 08-20-2014
According to http://www.rythmikaudio.com/eq.html, low dampening is supposed to also provide a 1.5 dB boost, which is missing from your curve:

That was my understanding, that you get more output in the upper frequencies (20 Hz)by making the amp not work as hard in the lower frequencies.
Since I favor music, I calibrated Audyssey with the high damping setting, and have never tried the other settings.
I bought a Cross-Spectrum Umik and got everything ready for HDMI REW before I got my F15HPs a few months ago, but I've been enjoying them so I haven't bothered to do any measurements yet :-) But I'll have some time in a couple weeks.

derrickdj1's Avatar derrickdj1 10:52 PM 08-20-2014
1.5 db won't make any major difference in the HT or with music except on graph paper for the most part.
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 03:14 AM 08-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
1.5 db won't make any major difference in the HT or with music except on graph paper for the most part.
When doing a/b comparisons, 1.5 db is quite audible. After long periods of time, your mind does some funky psychoacoustic stuff that would greatly diminish the difference.
JT78681's Avatar JT78681 06:25 AM 08-21-2014
Well I've had my Rythmiks for awhile now and I've never heard distortion with the dampening set to low. I have one specific example I can provide of the bass sounding hollow and not full with high dampening. Run the iron hide flip scene in the first transformers. Try out high and low dampening and you'll see what I'm talking about. The bass seems hollow and almost cut short when set to high dampening. I noticed this in a few scenes from the 2008 version of the hulk. So in low dampening the full body bass I'm hearing (ringing/smear) is distortion? It sounds pretty damn clean to me.
tvuong's Avatar tvuong 06:43 AM 08-21-2014
Rcohen, Bathes,
My graph does not show more output from low damping. It shows roll off at 15hz. Looking at my graph, what damping setting would you use/choose? That was why I asked as I also see Rythmik and Ricci's graph shows more output with low damping. As rcohen stated: Audessey had flatten it out. I would like someone (Bathes and all) to measure the three damping settings with Audessey engaged and post his/her graph to see if it acts similar to mine.
JT, thanks for the iron flip clip for comparison.
I guest at the end, I need to try and see which damping sounds better even if hi damping looks best on my graph.
Thanks guys.
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 10:25 PM 08-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Well I've had my Rythmiks for awhile now and I've never heard distortion with the dampening set to low. I have one specific example I can provide of the bass sounding hollow and not full with high dampening. Run the iron hide flip scene in the first transformers. Try out high and low dampening and you'll see what I'm talking about. The bass seems hollow and almost cut short when set to high dampening. I noticed this in a few scenes from the 2008 version of the hulk. So in low dampening the full body bass I'm hearing (ringing/smear) is distortion? It sounds pretty damn clean to me.
Distortion isn't really a good word for ringing. Normally, distortion is used to describe other stuff.

Here's where you can hear the difference. It's actually pretty subtle:

1) Low damping is a steeper rolloff, so things will be quieter below the cutoff frequency. So, you could find something with sound below that frequency, and compare.

2) For stuff at the cutoff frequency, there will be slightly less detail. Again, it's subtle, but I can hear the difference the most with movies that have large objects bouncing around. With low damping, it will be kind of rumbly. With high damping, it will be more articulate, with distinct bumps. On the other hand, sometimes a bit of smear sounds a bit better, like with a big booming explosion.

3) In some cases, the extra phase coherency from high damping can help make things sound tighter. On the other hand, cutting off the lower frequencies and boosting the rest can help in a different way. Sorting out time alignment can help, too.
newc33's Avatar newc33 10:26 PM 08-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Well I've had my Rythmiks for awhile now and I've never heard distortion with the dampening set to low. I have one specific example I can provide of the bass sounding hollow and not full with high dampening. Run the iron hide flip scene in the first transformers. Try out high and low dampening and you'll see what I'm talking about. The bass seems hollow and almost cut short when set to high dampening. I noticed this in a few scenes from the 2008 version of the hulk. So in low dampening the full body bass I'm hearing (ringing/smear) is distortion? It sounds pretty damn clean to me.
I wouldn't say its distortion but like u stated its more ringing. There is a difference. Hopefully someone can explain the difference as I don't know how to put it in words right now
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 10:29 PM 08-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Rcohen, Bathes,
My graph does not show more output from low damping. It shows roll off at 15hz. Looking at my graph, what damping setting would you use/choose? That was why I asked as I also see Rythmik and Ricci's graph shows more output with low damping. As rcohen stated: Audessey had flatten it out. I would like someone (Bathes and all) to measure the three damping settings with Audessey engaged and post his/her graph to see if it acts similar to mine.
JT, thanks for the iron flip clip for comparison.
I guest at the end, I need to try and see which damping sounds better even if hi damping looks best on my graph.
Thanks guys.
Low damping gives you a steeper rolloff, not more output. Doing that, however, conserves a lot of amp power and driver extension, so that it is capable of more output (more headroom) above the rolloff frequency.
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 10:37 PM 08-21-2014
In case this helps, here's an extreme view of what ringing from a min-phase IIR filter looks like on an impulse response. Most filters add a bit of ringing. The steeper the filter, the more the ringing. On the flip side, steeper filters do a better job of removing energy below the cutoff frequency. Having this degree of flexibility in a sub is rare.


tvuong's Avatar tvuong 06:19 AM 08-22-2014
Thanks rcohen for some detail explanation. It makes lots of senses. Do you have a low shelf filter enabled on your jriver? From reading your posts, how about running my subs with low damping and then applying a low shelf curve with 30hz center frequency to boost the steeper roll off frequency? I am currently running a low shelf with 6db boost applied at 60hz, bandwidth Q=1 in jriver with hi damping. I watch movie with subs 3-5db hot also. Looking at my graph, what is your recommendation for setting that low shelf curve in jriver? TIA. Always can count on you
JT78681's Avatar JT78681 06:41 AM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Thanks rcohen for some detail explanation. It makes lots of senses. Do you have a low shelf filter enabled on your jriver? From reading your posts, how about running my subs with low damping and then applying a low shelf curve with 30hz center frequency to boost the steeper roll off frequency? I am currently running a low shelf with 6db boost applied at 60hz, bandwidth Q=1 in jriver with hi damping. I watch movie with subs 3-5db hot also. Looking at my graph, what is your recommendation for setting that low shelf curve in jriver? TIA. Always can count on you
Too bad I can't boost more than +3db using the PEQ settings on the amp because I would. It still packs a punch though. I'm going to listen for a while using high dampening and post back my thoughts.
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 07:01 AM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Thanks rcohen for some detail explanation. It makes lots of senses. Do you have a low shelf filter enabled on your jriver? From reading your posts, how about running my subs with low damping and then applying a low shelf curve with 30hz center frequency to boost the steeper roll off frequency? I am currently running a low shelf with 6db boost applied at 60hz, bandwidth Q=1 in jriver with hi damping. I watch movie with subs 3-5db hot also. Looking at my graph, what is your recommendation for setting that low shelf curve in jriver? TIA. Always can count on you
I'm not using JRiver for any EQ. I'm using Dirac for EQ and my pre-amp for bass management. JRiver is good at EQ. It just isn't necessary for me, since I can just tweak my Dirac target curve to tune the response.

Any kind of filtering with a steep slope will cause a bit of ringing. It doesn't matter where you do it, or if you stack filters in two places. There's nothing wrong with the filters built into the subs. The filter in the sub is a good thing, not a bad thing. Sometimes steep slopes are the right way to go.

Also, the ringing is only at the cutoff frequency - not above the cutoff, so it only shows up for sounds at that frequency.

You should use your ears, rather than my recommendations, since it really depends on your room. Also, it really helps to use measurements to help guide you. Otherwise, your ears can be misleading. There isn't a technically right or wrong answer. Filters are a useful tool.
tvuong's Avatar tvuong 07:08 AM 08-22-2014
^^ great. Thanks.
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 07:15 AM 08-22-2014
One thing I would add is that it's really nice to use EQ tools that start with a measurement, then let you tune a target curve. That way, you don't need to measure after every tweak. What you see is what you get.

Dirac is far from the only EQ tool that lets you do that, but here's a sample pic from the Dirac web site.


rcohen's Avatar rcohen 07:39 AM 08-22-2014
Here's my current curve. I keep fiddling with this. I boosted it into the right ballpark by running my subs hot, then fine tuned the rest with Dirac. Originally, I tried to boost the bass too much with Dirac (rather than running the subs hot), but it turned out I was clipping the signal, which was bad. I kept wondering why it wasn't giving me more bass, and what's with this crackling?
Attached: Boosted.png (197.6 KB) 
JT78681's Avatar JT78681 09:13 AM 08-22-2014
Do you guys think it's okay to apply a +3db boost as high as 80hz? Or is it not necessary to boost that high? Maybe shoot for around 60hz?
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 12:49 PM 08-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Do you guys think it's okay to apply a +3db boost as high as 80hz? Or is it not necessary to boost that high? Maybe shoot for around 60hz?
Yes, it's reasonable. It totally depends on what sounds good to you in your room.


If you're boosting the sound below the crossover frequency, you should be able to just turn up the sub, rather than using EQ.
DonH50's Avatar DonH50 01:03 PM 08-22-2014
Where (at what frequency) you apply the boost depends upon what you are trying to smooth out. And, +1 to rcohen regarding preferences and if all you want is more bass output.
rotts4u's Avatar rotts4u 07:01 PM 08-23-2014
With regard to the main adjustments everyone makes when setting up the Fv15HP Can someone give me a quick explanation of what to expect from each one?

I am thinking 1 port vs 2
Rumble
Freq
Dampning
Low pass?

I am running mine as LFE inputs and using the AVR to control crossover at 80hz so none of the other settings are critical in my application. I have just never had a sub before with all these settings and I want to better understand what each does. I have a huge room and as of now I am running 1 port , Freq 14 dampening high.

I guess I am looking for a few common setups starting at the highest output one, then one step down in terms of output with tighter bass, then perhaps one more step down with the tightest bass which is likely where I am now.

Thoughts?
tvuong's Avatar tvuong 12:22 AM 08-24-2014
I reran Audessey calibration with 14/Low damping and my graphs look more like Rythmik and Ricci's graphs with the three damping settings. It is late so I have not listened to my system but for now, I am going to stick with 1 port 14Hz Med damping based solely on how my graphs look.




Attached: damping effects with aud off.png (118.2 KB)  damping effects with aud on.png (112.3 KB) 
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 03:02 AM 08-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I reran Audessey calibration with 14/Low damping and my graphs look more like Rythmik and Ricci's graphs with the three damping settings. It is late so I have not listened to my system but for now, I am going to stick with 1 port 14Hz Med damping based solely on how my graphs look.
Sounds reasonable, but you should listen, of course.

Some things to compare (by ear):
14 high vs 14 med.
20 high vs. 14 high.
20 high vs 20 med.
14 med vs 20 high.

The only difference will be a around 20hz, so listen to stuff with low content.

Not sure if you have multiple subs, but if you do, make sure these settings match, or you can get cancellation.
What is your crossover frequency?
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 03:14 AM 08-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotts4u View Post
With regard to the main adjustments everyone makes when setting up the Fv15HP Can someone give me a quick explanation of what to expect from each one?

I am thinking 1 port vs 2
Rumble
Freq
Dampning
Low pass?

I am running mine as LFE inputs and using the AVR to control crossover at 80hz so none of the other settings are critical in my application. I have just never had a sub before with all these settings and I want to better understand what each does. I have a huge room and as of now I am running 1 port , Freq 14 dampening high.

I guess I am looking for a few common setups starting at the highest output one, then one step down in terms of output with tighter bass, then perhaps one more step down with the tightest bass which is likely where I am now.

Thoughts?
First, make sure you leave the limiter on, so you don't blow the driver.
Personally, I liked 1 port much better, but it depends on your room. 2 ports gives more headroom, but less low frequency extension.
Rumble stacks an additional steep very low frequency high-pass filter in addition to the one you configure with freq-damp. I forgot exactly what type of filter. That can go on or off. On gives you more headroom. Off gives you cleaner sound.
Freq is the frequency of the high pass filter. I'd say 14 or 20, but higher gives you more headroom.
Damping is the slope of the high pass filter. Low=steep, High=gentle. High is cleanest, but low is the most headroom. It changes the character in the bottom octave. It's related to Freq, but different.
Low-pass: Since you are using an AVR, it's best to use the LFE input and bypass he low-pass filter in the sub, unless you have some kind of signal noise/interference problem. If you do, use the standard input, but crank the low-pass frequency to 120hz on the sub.
tvuong's Avatar tvuong 08:59 AM 08-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Not sure if you have multiple subs, but if you do, make sure these settings match, or you can get cancellation.
What is your crossover frequency?
Yes I have dual fv15hps. Crossover at 80hz. Thanks.
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 09:29 AM 08-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Well I've had my Rythmiks for awhile now and I've never heard distortion with the dampening set to low. I have one specific example I can provide of the bass sounding hollow and not full with high dampening. Run the iron hide flip scene in the first transformers. Try out high and low dampening and you'll see what I'm talking about. The bass seems hollow and almost cut short when set to high dampening. I noticed this in a few scenes from the 2008 version of the hulk. So in low dampening the full body bass I'm hearing (ringing/smear) is distortion? It sounds pretty damn clean to me.
If what you were hearing was distortion, it is more then likely 2nd order THD which does not mean it is going to sound bad. The bass just sounds "fuller". Mechanical distortion and harmonics are two very different types of distortion.

This is one thing that always gets confused when looking at data-bass.com. THD measurements are commonly over exaggerated by some. About any sub that has passing output on DB's list is not going to sound bad in room. Which is why DB allows up to 35% harmonics before failing. Sure in a 2m ground plane enviroment you could hear the difference between 20% 2nd & 3rd order THD @ 20hz and 0% THD @ 20hz. Now place the sub in room with all speakers playing and you more then likely can not hear the difference.

That being said more then likely what you are hearing is more ringing, which has more stored energy in the bass note. Rchoen pretty much sums it well. Good post BTW!!
rcohen's Avatar rcohen 09:57 AM 08-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Yes I have dual fv15hps. Crossover at 80hz. Thanks.
Your graphs look good, BTW.
No dips centered at the crossover frequency.
If you wanted to keep experimenting with placement, you could try to find a way to reduce the 50hz dip, but Audyssey seems to be handling it well.

How does it sound?
tvuong's Avatar tvuong 06:28 PM 08-24-2014
^^ thanks. I played with a few placements in the past and this is the best I can get. Have not got a chance to listen at all.
shaghi's Avatar shaghi 07:29 AM 08-26-2014
I'm interested in purchasing one of the Rythimc DIY kits, most likely the DS1500 CI. Is it possible to order one of the unfinished/assembled cabinets from Rhythmic as well?
JT78681's Avatar JT78681 10:34 AM 08-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I reran Audessey calibration with 14/Low damping and my graphs look more like Rythmik and Ricci's graphs with the three damping settings. It is late so I have not listened to my system but for now, I am going to stick with 1 port 14Hz Med damping based solely on how my graphs look.



I too am now running 1 port mid dampening and I like what I hear. Unfortunately, I have no graphs to show, but to my ears it sounds like a good compromise between low and high dampening.
enricoclaudio's Avatar enricoclaudio 05:02 PM 08-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaghi View Post
I'm interested in purchasing one of the Rythimc DIY kits, most likely the DS1500 CI. Is it possible to order one of the unfinished/assembled cabinets from Rhythmic as well?
Unfortunately we don't sell unfinished boxes. I know some people have been using our drivers with flat packs from DIY Sound Group. You can ask about this in the DIY subwoofer section but with minors modifications they should work fine. DIY Sound Group has two sealed boxes that you may be able to use with our DS1501/DS1510. One is 3 cf and the other one is 4 cf. I would go with the 4 cf box.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/sealed-...flatpacks.html
shaghi's Avatar shaghi 01:41 AM 08-29-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Unfortunately we don't sell unfinished boxes. I know some people have been using our drivers with flat packs from DIY Sound Group. You can ask about this in the DIY subwoofer section but with minors modifications they should work fine. DIY Sound Group has two sealed boxes that you may be able to use with our DS1501/DS1510. One is 3 cf and the other one is 4 cf. I would go with the 4 cf box.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/sealed-...flatpacks.html
I see... Could you tell me what exactly is included in your kit and what other materials I will need to source myself? I'm a total noob when it comes to this. I will start a thread in the DIY forum when I get the chance. Also, how come you don't sell unfinished boxes? Are the shipping costs prohibitive? Any chance you can make an exception and sell me one? And just to be clear - the only difference between the DS1501 and DS1510 is the power handling?

Another thing - if I decide to put together my own sub using one of those flatpack enclosures, will I need to manually eq or run into potential issues regarding sound quality? Or will the direct servo accommodate any imperfections?
Tags: Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer
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