Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 552 - AVS Forum
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post #16531 of 16550 Old 08-20-2014, 07:01 PM
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^^ I can try to measure without Audessey to see my responses between the three settings but it does not do me any good when I watch a movie with Audessey always on, one of the main reason for buying my X4000 Denon. Why would xt32 with subeqHT throws things off? Isn't it one of the best out there?
So low damping does not translate to more output? Just more head room? I don't think I want to give up 10-15hz for that beside from having more ringing/distortion as you pointed out with low damping. Thanks Rcohen.
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post #16532 of 16550 Old 08-20-2014, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ I can try to measure without Audessey to see my responses between the three settings but it does not do me any good when I watch a movie with Audessey always on, one of the main reason for buying my X4000 Denon. Why would xt32 with subeqHT throws things off? Isn't it one of the best out there?
So low damping does not translate to more output? Just more head room? I don't think I want to give up 10-15hz for that beside from having more ringing/distortion as you pointed out with low damping. Thanks Rcohen.
More output and more headroom are the same thing. You do give up the lowest frequencies for it. It doesn't add distortion, just a bit of ringing for the lowest frequencies. I just meant that sometimes "full body" is also used to describe distortion. For some rooms and tastes, low damping is best. It's easy enough to try.

Audyssey tries to flatten out the EQ, so it hides what the sub filter settings are doing. You can (and probably should) still use it, especially if you like the sound better that way. I just meant to turn it off if you want to see what the sub filter settings do.
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post #16533 of 16550 Old 08-20-2014, 08:17 PM
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According to http://www.rythmikaudio.com/eq.html, low dampening is supposed to also provide a 1.5 dB boost, which is missing from your curve:

That was my understanding, that you get more output in the upper frequencies (20 Hz)by making the amp not work as hard in the lower frequencies.
Since I favor music, I calibrated Audyssey with the high damping setting, and have never tried the other settings.
I bought a Cross-Spectrum Umik and got everything ready for HDMI REW before I got my F15HPs a few months ago, but I've been enjoying them so I haven't bothered to do any measurements yet :-) But I'll have some time in a couple weeks.
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post #16534 of 16550 Old 08-20-2014, 09:52 PM
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1.5 db won't make any major difference in the HT or with music except on graph paper for the most part.

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post #16535 of 16550 Old Yesterday, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
1.5 db won't make any major difference in the HT or with music except on graph paper for the most part.
When doing a/b comparisons, 1.5 db is quite audible. After long periods of time, your mind does some funky psychoacoustic stuff that would greatly diminish the difference.
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post #16536 of 16550 Old Yesterday, 05:25 AM
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Well I've had my Rythmiks for awhile now and I've never heard distortion with the dampening set to low. I have one specific example I can provide of the bass sounding hollow and not full with high dampening. Run the iron hide flip scene in the first transformers. Try out high and low dampening and you'll see what I'm talking about. The bass seems hollow and almost cut short when set to high dampening. I noticed this in a few scenes from the 2008 version of the hulk. So in low dampening the full body bass I'm hearing (ringing/smear) is distortion? It sounds pretty damn clean to me.
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post #16537 of 16550 Old Yesterday, 05:43 AM
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Rcohen, Bathes,
My graph does not show more output from low damping. It shows roll off at 15hz. Looking at my graph, what damping setting would you use/choose? That was why I asked as I also see Rythmik and Ricci's graph shows more output with low damping. As rcohen stated: Audessey had flatten it out. I would like someone (Bathes and all) to measure the three damping settings with Audessey engaged and post his/her graph to see if it acts similar to mine.
JT, thanks for the iron flip clip for comparison.
I guest at the end, I need to try and see which damping sounds better even if hi damping looks best on my graph.
Thanks guys.

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post #16538 of 16550 Old Yesterday, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Well I've had my Rythmiks for awhile now and I've never heard distortion with the dampening set to low. I have one specific example I can provide of the bass sounding hollow and not full with high dampening. Run the iron hide flip scene in the first transformers. Try out high and low dampening and you'll see what I'm talking about. The bass seems hollow and almost cut short when set to high dampening. I noticed this in a few scenes from the 2008 version of the hulk. So in low dampening the full body bass I'm hearing (ringing/smear) is distortion? It sounds pretty damn clean to me.
Distortion isn't really a good word for ringing. Normally, distortion is used to describe other stuff.

Here's where you can hear the difference. It's actually pretty subtle:

1) Low damping is a steeper rolloff, so things will be quieter below the cutoff frequency. So, you could find something with sound below that frequency, and compare.

2) For stuff at the cutoff frequency, there will be slightly less detail. Again, it's subtle, but I can hear the difference the most with movies that have large objects bouncing around. With low damping, it will be kind of rumbly. With high damping, it will be more articulate, with distinct bumps. On the other hand, sometimes a bit of smear sounds a bit better, like with a big booming explosion.

3) In some cases, the extra phase coherency from high damping can help make things sound tighter. On the other hand, cutting off the lower frequencies and boosting the rest can help in a different way. Sorting out time alignment can help, too.
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post #16539 of 16550 Old Yesterday, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Well I've had my Rythmiks for awhile now and I've never heard distortion with the dampening set to low. I have one specific example I can provide of the bass sounding hollow and not full with high dampening. Run the iron hide flip scene in the first transformers. Try out high and low dampening and you'll see what I'm talking about. The bass seems hollow and almost cut short when set to high dampening. I noticed this in a few scenes from the 2008 version of the hulk. So in low dampening the full body bass I'm hearing (ringing/smear) is distortion? It sounds pretty damn clean to me.
I wouldn't say its distortion but like u stated its more ringing. There is a difference. Hopefully someone can explain the difference as I don't know how to put it in words right now

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post #16540 of 16550 Old Yesterday, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Rcohen, Bathes,
My graph does not show more output from low damping. It shows roll off at 15hz. Looking at my graph, what damping setting would you use/choose? That was why I asked as I also see Rythmik and Ricci's graph shows more output with low damping. As rcohen stated: Audessey had flatten it out. I would like someone (Bathes and all) to measure the three damping settings with Audessey engaged and post his/her graph to see if it acts similar to mine.
JT, thanks for the iron flip clip for comparison.
I guest at the end, I need to try and see which damping sounds better even if hi damping looks best on my graph.
Thanks guys.
Low damping gives you a steeper rolloff, not more output. Doing that, however, conserves a lot of amp power and driver extension, so that it is capable of more output (more headroom) above the rolloff frequency.
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post #16541 of 16550 Old Yesterday, 09:37 PM
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In case this helps, here's an extreme view of what ringing from a min-phase IIR filter looks like on an impulse response. Most filters add a bit of ringing. The steeper the filter, the more the ringing. On the flip side, steeper filters do a better job of removing energy below the cutoff frequency. Having this degree of flexibility in a sub is rare.

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post #16542 of 16550 Old Today, 05:19 AM
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Thanks rcohen for some detail explanation. It makes lots of senses. Do you have a low shelf filter enabled on your jriver? From reading your posts, how about running my subs with low damping and then applying a low shelf curve with 30hz center frequency to boost the steeper roll off frequency? I am currently running a low shelf with 6db boost applied at 60hz, bandwidth Q=1 in jriver with hi damping. I watch movie with subs 3-5db hot also. Looking at my graph, what is your recommendation for setting that low shelf curve in jriver? TIA. Always can count on you
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post #16543 of 16550 Old Today, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Thanks rcohen for some detail explanation. It makes lots of senses. Do you have a low shelf filter enabled on your jriver? From reading your posts, how about running my subs with low damping and then applying a low shelf curve with 30hz center frequency to boost the steeper roll off frequency? I am currently running a low shelf with 6db boost applied at 60hz, bandwidth Q=1 in jriver with hi damping. I watch movie with subs 3-5db hot also. Looking at my graph, what is your recommendation for setting that low shelf curve in jriver? TIA. Always can count on you
Too bad I can't boost more than +3db using the PEQ settings on the amp because I would. It still packs a punch though. I'm going to listen for a while using high dampening and post back my thoughts.

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post #16544 of 16550 Old Today, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Thanks rcohen for some detail explanation. It makes lots of senses. Do you have a low shelf filter enabled on your jriver? From reading your posts, how about running my subs with low damping and then applying a low shelf curve with 30hz center frequency to boost the steeper roll off frequency? I am currently running a low shelf with 6db boost applied at 60hz, bandwidth Q=1 in jriver with hi damping. I watch movie with subs 3-5db hot also. Looking at my graph, what is your recommendation for setting that low shelf curve in jriver? TIA. Always can count on you
I'm not using JRiver for any EQ. I'm using Dirac for EQ and my pre-amp for bass management. JRiver is good at EQ. It just isn't necessary for me, since I can just tweak my Dirac target curve to tune the response.

Any kind of filtering with a steep slope will cause a bit of ringing. It doesn't matter where you do it, or if you stack filters in two places. There's nothing wrong with the filters built into the subs. The filter in the sub is a good thing, not a bad thing. Sometimes steep slopes are the right way to go.

Also, the ringing is only at the cutoff frequency - not above the cutoff, so it only shows up for sounds at that frequency.

You should use your ears, rather than my recommendations, since it really depends on your room. Also, it really helps to use measurements to help guide you. Otherwise, your ears can be misleading. There isn't a technically right or wrong answer. Filters are a useful tool.
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post #16545 of 16550 Old Today, 06:08 AM
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^^ great. Thanks.
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post #16546 of 16550 Old Today, 06:15 AM
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One thing I would add is that it's really nice to use EQ tools that start with a measurement, then let you tune a target curve. That way, you don't need to measure after every tweak. What you see is what you get.

Dirac is far from the only EQ tool that lets you do that, but here's a sample pic from the Dirac web site.


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post #16547 of 16550 Old Today, 06:39 AM
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Here's my current curve. I keep fiddling with this. I boosted it into the right ballpark by running my subs hot, then fine tuned the rest with Dirac. Originally, I tried to boost the bass too much with Dirac (rather than running the subs hot), but it turned out I was clipping the signal, which was bad. I kept wondering why it wasn't giving me more bass, and what's with this crackling?
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post #16548 of 16550 Old Today, 08:13 AM
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Do you guys think it's okay to apply a +3db boost as high as 80hz? Or is it not necessary to boost that high? Maybe shoot for around 60hz?

Receiver - Denon 1713
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
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post #16549 of 16550 Old Today, 11:49 AM
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Do you guys think it's okay to apply a +3db boost as high as 80hz? Or is it not necessary to boost that high? Maybe shoot for around 60hz?
Yes, it's reasonable. It totally depends on what sounds good to you in your room.


If you're boosting the sound below the crossover frequency, you should be able to just turn up the sub, rather than using EQ.
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post #16550 of 16550 Old Today, 12:03 PM
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Where (at what frequency) you apply the boost depends upon what you are trying to smooth out. And, +1 to rcohen regarding preferences and if all you want is more bass output.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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