Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 552 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #16531 of 27131 Old 08-21-2014, 10:37 PM
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In case this helps, here's an extreme view of what ringing from a min-phase IIR filter looks like on an impulse response. Most filters add a bit of ringing. The steeper the filter, the more the ringing. On the flip side, steeper filters do a better job of removing energy below the cutoff frequency. Having this degree of flexibility in a sub is rare.

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post #16532 of 27131 Old 08-22-2014, 06:19 AM
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Thanks rcohen for some detail explanation. It makes lots of senses. Do you have a low shelf filter enabled on your jriver? From reading your posts, how about running my subs with low damping and then applying a low shelf curve with 30hz center frequency to boost the steeper roll off frequency? I am currently running a low shelf with 6db boost applied at 60hz, bandwidth Q=1 in jriver with hi damping. I watch movie with subs 3-5db hot also. Looking at my graph, what is your recommendation for setting that low shelf curve in jriver? TIA. Always can count on you
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post #16533 of 27131 Old 08-22-2014, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Thanks rcohen for some detail explanation. It makes lots of senses. Do you have a low shelf filter enabled on your jriver? From reading your posts, how about running my subs with low damping and then applying a low shelf curve with 30hz center frequency to boost the steeper roll off frequency? I am currently running a low shelf with 6db boost applied at 60hz, bandwidth Q=1 in jriver with hi damping. I watch movie with subs 3-5db hot also. Looking at my graph, what is your recommendation for setting that low shelf curve in jriver? TIA. Always can count on you
Too bad I can't boost more than +3db using the PEQ settings on the amp because I would. It still packs a punch though. I'm going to listen for a while using high dampening and post back my thoughts.

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post #16534 of 27131 Old 08-22-2014, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Thanks rcohen for some detail explanation. It makes lots of senses. Do you have a low shelf filter enabled on your jriver? From reading your posts, how about running my subs with low damping and then applying a low shelf curve with 30hz center frequency to boost the steeper roll off frequency? I am currently running a low shelf with 6db boost applied at 60hz, bandwidth Q=1 in jriver with hi damping. I watch movie with subs 3-5db hot also. Looking at my graph, what is your recommendation for setting that low shelf curve in jriver? TIA. Always can count on you
I'm not using JRiver for any EQ. I'm using Dirac for EQ and my pre-amp for bass management. JRiver is good at EQ. It just isn't necessary for me, since I can just tweak my Dirac target curve to tune the response.

Any kind of filtering with a steep slope will cause a bit of ringing. It doesn't matter where you do it, or if you stack filters in two places. There's nothing wrong with the filters built into the subs. The filter in the sub is a good thing, not a bad thing. Sometimes steep slopes are the right way to go.

Also, the ringing is only at the cutoff frequency - not above the cutoff, so it only shows up for sounds at that frequency.

You should use your ears, rather than my recommendations, since it really depends on your room. Also, it really helps to use measurements to help guide you. Otherwise, your ears can be misleading. There isn't a technically right or wrong answer. Filters are a useful tool.
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post #16535 of 27131 Old 08-22-2014, 07:08 AM
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^^ great. Thanks.
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post #16536 of 27131 Old 08-22-2014, 07:15 AM
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One thing I would add is that it's really nice to use EQ tools that start with a measurement, then let you tune a target curve. That way, you don't need to measure after every tweak. What you see is what you get.

Dirac is far from the only EQ tool that lets you do that, but here's a sample pic from the Dirac web site.


Last edited by rcohen; 08-22-2014 at 07:22 AM.
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post #16537 of 27131 Old 08-22-2014, 07:39 AM
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Here's my current curve. I keep fiddling with this. I boosted it into the right ballpark by running my subs hot, then fine tuned the rest with Dirac. Originally, I tried to boost the bass too much with Dirac (rather than running the subs hot), but it turned out I was clipping the signal, which was bad. I kept wondering why it wasn't giving me more bass, and what's with this crackling?
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post #16538 of 27131 Old 08-22-2014, 09:13 AM
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Do you guys think it's okay to apply a +3db boost as high as 80hz? Or is it not necessary to boost that high? Maybe shoot for around 60hz?

Display - LG 65EF9500
Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #16539 of 27131 Old 08-22-2014, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Do you guys think it's okay to apply a +3db boost as high as 80hz? Or is it not necessary to boost that high? Maybe shoot for around 60hz?
Yes, it's reasonable. It totally depends on what sounds good to you in your room.


If you're boosting the sound below the crossover frequency, you should be able to just turn up the sub, rather than using EQ.
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post #16540 of 27131 Old 08-22-2014, 01:03 PM
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Where (at what frequency) you apply the boost depends upon what you are trying to smooth out. And, +1 to rcohen regarding preferences and if all you want is more bass output.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #16541 of 27131 Old 08-23-2014, 07:01 PM
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With regard to the main adjustments everyone makes when setting up the Fv15HP Can someone give me a quick explanation of what to expect from each one?

I am thinking 1 port vs 2
Rumble
Freq
Dampning
Low pass?

I am running mine as LFE inputs and using the AVR to control crossover at 80hz so none of the other settings are critical in my application. I have just never had a sub before with all these settings and I want to better understand what each does. I have a huge room and as of now I am running 1 port , Freq 14 dampening high.

I guess I am looking for a few common setups starting at the highest output one, then one step down in terms of output with tighter bass, then perhaps one more step down with the tightest bass which is likely where I am now.

Thoughts?
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post #16542 of 27131 Old 08-24-2014, 12:22 AM
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I reran Audessey calibration with 14/Low damping and my graphs look more like Rythmik and Ricci's graphs with the three damping settings. It is late so I have not listened to my system but for now, I am going to stick with 1 port 14Hz Med damping based solely on how my graphs look.



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post #16543 of 27131 Old 08-24-2014, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I reran Audessey calibration with 14/Low damping and my graphs look more like Rythmik and Ricci's graphs with the three damping settings. It is late so I have not listened to my system but for now, I am going to stick with 1 port 14Hz Med damping based solely on how my graphs look.
Sounds reasonable, but you should listen, of course.

Some things to compare (by ear):
14 high vs 14 med.
20 high vs. 14 high.
20 high vs 20 med.
14 med vs 20 high.

The only difference will be a around 20hz, so listen to stuff with low content.

Not sure if you have multiple subs, but if you do, make sure these settings match, or you can get cancellation.
What is your crossover frequency?
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post #16544 of 27131 Old 08-24-2014, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rotts4u View Post
With regard to the main adjustments everyone makes when setting up the Fv15HP Can someone give me a quick explanation of what to expect from each one?

I am thinking 1 port vs 2
Rumble
Freq
Dampning
Low pass?

I am running mine as LFE inputs and using the AVR to control crossover at 80hz so none of the other settings are critical in my application. I have just never had a sub before with all these settings and I want to better understand what each does. I have a huge room and as of now I am running 1 port , Freq 14 dampening high.

I guess I am looking for a few common setups starting at the highest output one, then one step down in terms of output with tighter bass, then perhaps one more step down with the tightest bass which is likely where I am now.

Thoughts?
First, make sure you leave the limiter on, so you don't blow the driver.
Personally, I liked 1 port much better, but it depends on your room. 2 ports gives more headroom, but less low frequency extension.
Rumble stacks an additional steep very low frequency high-pass filter in addition to the one you configure with freq-damp. I forgot exactly what type of filter. That can go on or off. On gives you more headroom. Off gives you cleaner sound.
Freq is the frequency of the high pass filter. I'd say 14 or 20, but higher gives you more headroom.
Damping is the slope of the high pass filter. Low=steep, High=gentle. High is cleanest, but low is the most headroom. It changes the character in the bottom octave. It's related to Freq, but different.
Low-pass: Since you are using an AVR, it's best to use the LFE input and bypass he low-pass filter in the sub, unless you have some kind of signal noise/interference problem. If you do, use the standard input, but crank the low-pass frequency to 120hz on the sub.

Last edited by rcohen; 08-24-2014 at 03:19 AM.
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post #16545 of 27131 Old 08-24-2014, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Not sure if you have multiple subs, but if you do, make sure these settings match, or you can get cancellation.
What is your crossover frequency?
Yes I have dual fv15hps. Crossover at 80hz. Thanks.
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post #16546 of 27131 Old 08-24-2014, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Well I've had my Rythmiks for awhile now and I've never heard distortion with the dampening set to low. I have one specific example I can provide of the bass sounding hollow and not full with high dampening. Run the iron hide flip scene in the first transformers. Try out high and low dampening and you'll see what I'm talking about. The bass seems hollow and almost cut short when set to high dampening. I noticed this in a few scenes from the 2008 version of the hulk. So in low dampening the full body bass I'm hearing (ringing/smear) is distortion? It sounds pretty damn clean to me.
If what you were hearing was distortion, it is more then likely 2nd order THD which does not mean it is going to sound bad. The bass just sounds "fuller". Mechanical distortion and harmonics are two very different types of distortion.

This is one thing that always gets confused when looking at data-bass.com. THD measurements are commonly over exaggerated by some. About any sub that has passing output on DB's list is not going to sound bad in room. Which is why DB allows up to 35% harmonics before failing. Sure in a 2m ground plane enviroment you could hear the difference between 20% 2nd & 3rd order THD @ 20hz and 0% THD @ 20hz. Now place the sub in room with all speakers playing and you more then likely can not hear the difference.

That being said more then likely what you are hearing is more ringing, which has more stored energy in the bass note. Rchoen pretty much sums it well. Good post BTW!!

Last edited by basshead81; 08-24-2014 at 10:00 AM.
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post #16547 of 27131 Old 08-24-2014, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Yes I have dual fv15hps. Crossover at 80hz. Thanks.
Your graphs look good, BTW.
No dips centered at the crossover frequency.
If you wanted to keep experimenting with placement, you could try to find a way to reduce the 50hz dip, but Audyssey seems to be handling it well.

How does it sound?
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post #16548 of 27131 Old 08-24-2014, 06:28 PM
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^^ thanks. I played with a few placements in the past and this is the best I can get. Have not got a chance to listen at all.
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post #16549 of 27131 Old 08-26-2014, 07:29 AM
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I'm interested in purchasing one of the Rythimc DIY kits, most likely the DS1500 CI. Is it possible to order one of the unfinished/assembled cabinets from Rhythmic as well?
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post #16550 of 27131 Old 08-26-2014, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I reran Audessey calibration with 14/Low damping and my graphs look more like Rythmik and Ricci's graphs with the three damping settings. It is late so I have not listened to my system but for now, I am going to stick with 1 port 14Hz Med damping based solely on how my graphs look.



I too am now running 1 port mid dampening and I like what I hear. Unfortunately, I have no graphs to show, but to my ears it sounds like a good compromise between low and high dampening.

Display - LG 65EF9500
Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #16551 of 27131 Old 08-26-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by shaghi View Post
I'm interested in purchasing one of the Rythimc DIY kits, most likely the DS1500 CI. Is it possible to order one of the unfinished/assembled cabinets from Rhythmic as well?
Unfortunately we don't sell unfinished boxes. I know some people have been using our drivers with flat packs from DIY Sound Group. You can ask about this in the DIY subwoofer section but with minors modifications they should work fine. DIY Sound Group has two sealed boxes that you may be able to use with our DS1501/DS1510. One is 3 cf and the other one is 4 cf. I would go with the 4 cf box.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/sealed-...flatpacks.html



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post #16552 of 27131 Old 08-29-2014, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Unfortunately we don't sell unfinished boxes. I know some people have been using our drivers with flat packs from DIY Sound Group. You can ask about this in the DIY subwoofer section but with minors modifications they should work fine. DIY Sound Group has two sealed boxes that you may be able to use with our DS1501/DS1510. One is 3 cf and the other one is 4 cf. I would go with the 4 cf box.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/sealed-...flatpacks.html
I see... Could you tell me what exactly is included in your kit and what other materials I will need to source myself? I'm a total noob when it comes to this. I will start a thread in the DIY forum when I get the chance. Also, how come you don't sell unfinished boxes? Are the shipping costs prohibitive? Any chance you can make an exception and sell me one? And just to be clear - the only difference between the DS1501 and DS1510 is the power handling?

Another thing - if I decide to put together my own sub using one of those flatpack enclosures, will I need to manually eq or run into potential issues regarding sound quality? Or will the direct servo accommodate any imperfections?

Last edited by shaghi; 08-29-2014 at 02:50 AM.
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post #16553 of 27131 Old 08-29-2014, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by shaghi View Post
Another thing - if I decide to put together my own sub using one of those flatpack enclosures, will I need to manually eq or run into potential issues regarding sound quality? Or will the direct servo accommodate any imperfections?
You would still benefit from EQ. The servo just reduces distortion. It doesn't compensate for room issues.
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post #16554 of 27131 Old 08-29-2014, 09:45 AM
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The need and ability to EQ, and issues regarding SQ, have nothing to do with whether you buy a fully assembled Rythmik sub or, rather, a DIY Kit and a flat-pack enclosure. The Rythmik plate amp and servo driver do all the work for you either way. You just have to make sure the enclosure is air-tight upon its completed construction. The flat-packs are really well made, and go together easily. Actually, if you get the 4cu.ft. version ($120 each plus shipping. The 3cu.ft. is $90), you will get slightly more output than the Rythmik 3cu.ft. enclosure provides. The reason Rythmik can't sell you an unfinished enclosure is they don't get any from their enclosure supplier (in China). The Rythmik DIY Kit contains all you need for completely assembled subs (driver, plate amp, driver and amp mounting hardware, wiring, enclosure polyfill) apart from everything related to the enclosures themselves. To build the flat-pack you will need wood glue and woodworking clamps, which will cost you about $100 (a gallon of glue and 4-6 24" clamps from Harbor Freight). Then you may want to finish the MDF flat-pack enclosure(s), of course. Figure another $100 or so for primer, paint, sandpaper, etc. Add to that grill cloth, and you can see that you actually may not save any money doing it yourself, and have no guarantee the finished product will look as good as an assembled Rythmik. But if you have any woodworking skills, and you want subs finished in a way Rythmik does not offer, you have the option.


The 1510 driver takes advantage of the higher output of the H600 amp by having greater maximum excursion (cone travel) than the 1501, therefore providing slightly higher SPL. There is nothing to be gained by pairing a 1510 driver with an A370 plate amp. The 1510 has a significantly larger motor structure than the 1501 as well. Plus it's one-piece cone looks great!

Last edited by BDP24; 08-29-2014 at 10:33 AM.
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post #16555 of 27131 Old 08-29-2014, 10:13 AM
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Hey something I've wondered for awhile,

Lets say you have an Antimode or some sort of sub EQ. Now I run 14hz and hi damping on my F15, but is it best to run antimode EQ with it on low damping, and then when done switch back to hi? Then when back to hi, I let Pioneer's MCACC do it's thing/ I thought this might be the case, but I saw that low damping just drops off quicker. And if that's the case, I'm not EQ'ing correctly and should EQ with what I actually run.

What do you guys think?

Sorry if this was discussed, I didn't see it.
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post #16556 of 27131 Old 08-29-2014, 10:16 AM
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^^ Per Brian, he recommends running calibration with low damping then switch to whatever one prefers and NOT the other way around.
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post #16557 of 27131 Old 08-29-2014, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
The more I read it looks like a Q of 0.5 is preferred by most. This would be high dampening on Rythmik subs. To be honest I prefer low over high dampening. The bass is more full bodied, hence has more ringing, but it just sounds better with movies to me.
I use damping to match the timing of my speakers. I use mid damping for my Ascend 340s because it sounds like more of a match. However, when I had Gallo Reference Stradas (which are incredibly fast) in my system I had to go with high damping, there was no other choice. Low damping seems solely designed for that cinema boom. It's somewhat entertaining, but lots of other subs can do that. Rythmik's unique strength is tight, articulate bass, which may sound thin and dry to some, but it's much more realistic.
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post #16558 of 27131 Old 08-29-2014, 04:21 PM
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^^^

For the sealed F15, Brian's recommendation is, prior to running room EQ, set the amplifier to:
Rumble Filter - Off
Extension - 14Hz/Mid damping

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post #16559 of 27131 Old 08-29-2014, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peen View Post
Hey something I've wondered for awhile,

Lets say you have an Antimode or some sort of sub EQ. Now I run 14hz and hi damping on my F15, but is it best to run antimode EQ with it on low damping, and then when done switch back to hi? Then when back to hi, I let Pioneer's MCACC do it's thing/ I thought this might be the case, but I saw that low damping just drops off quicker. And if that's the case, I'm not EQ'ing correctly and should EQ with what I actually run.

What do you guys think?

Sorry if this was discussed, I didn't see it.
I don't know about other "sub EQ" products, but the DSP AntiMode corrects for less-than flat amplitude response in the listening room as measured by the included microphone. If you set your Rythmik to Low or Medium Damping and run the Antimode, and then switch the Rythmik to High Damping, the Antimode will be correcting for a raw response that no longer exists. Not the optimum implementation of the Antimode's abilities, IMO.
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post #16560 of 27131 Old 09-01-2014, 09:09 PM
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Just want to add that for music, the Onkyo 5509 made the sub sound way better when compared to the Onkyo 818...
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f12g subwoofer , lv12r , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub

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