Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 566 - AVS Forum
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post #16951 of 16973 Old 11-20-2014, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Chipless View Post
Thank you SO much to all of those who took the time to respond. I really appreciate your insight. Based on both Brian's and JT's responses below (as well as tidbits from the others), I am going to return the SB2000s and go with a single FV15HP

Thanks again, I am excited to become a Rythmik owner.
Congratulations. Your doing it right the first time around. I had to learn the hard way and went through a handful of subs before getting the FV15HP. It's simply on another level when compared to the lower tier subs.

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post #16952 of 16973 Old 11-20-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
If the SB2000's provide all of the output or more than you will ever use, no. Are the FV15HP's worth the money for the performance you get from them, yes. It would take 5-6 SB2000's to equal the output of one FV15HP around port tune. Or, ten to twelve to match the output of dual FV15HP's around tune (16-30 Hz).
I would say If the SB2000's provide all of the output or more than you will ever use, then dual F12's or F12G's would be what I would move to if you want to move to Rythmik. You will end up with a product that will play lower and have more detail at lower volumes for Music. No need to spend big bucks if you don't need the SPL for movies.

Take my comments with a grain of salt as I only have 1 Paradigm Servo 15 in a 2000 cuf sealed room.

Edit: Guess I should of read to the end before I commented back. Welcome to the Rythmik family, I hope to join one day soon.
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post #16953 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
If size isn't a constraint there is little acoustical benefit to a sealed sub if comparing it to a ported sub that is of good quality like an SVS or Rhythmik. You are however giving up output with a sealed design.
I'm afraid you have made a mistake by going sealed so even dual pb2000 would be a noticeable improvement. So from there it's just a matter of how much more you're willing to spend. If you can easily afford dual FV15P then you would almost certainly be done with your search and have nothing left to do but enjoy.
Chipless---While in your case a ported sub does seem the way to go, and contrary to Bond 007's above comment, if a sealed sub didn't have the advantage over a ported one IN SOME WAYS AND IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES, Brian wouldn't design them, Rythmik wouldn't make them, and no one would buy them. Both types have their advantages and disadvantages, and each may be a better choice than the other in any particular application. Sealed subs have measurably and audibly lower group-delay (ringing) than do ported (though the Rythmik Servo-Feedback system minimizes the difference), and better take advantage of the room gain of smaller volumes. They also have a slower, shallower low-frequency roll-off below resonance, ultimately playing lower in frequency than a comparable ported. Greatest SPL output at a ported sub's tuning frequency is NOT the only criteria by which to judge and choose a subwoofer---it depends on one's priorities. Bond's reasoning could, in a similar fashion, lead one to the conclusion that horn-type loudspeakers are the best, simply because they are the most sensitive and efficient. What about transparency, scale, imaging, and lack of vowel coloration? The award goes to planars! It's ultimately about knowing one's desires and needs, and prioritizing to get the sound one wants, isn't it?
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post #16954 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
Chipless---While in your case a ported sub does seem the way to go, and contrary to Bond 007's above comment, if a sealed sub didn't have the advantage over a ported one IN SOME WAYS AND IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES, Brian wouldn't design them, Rythmik wouldn't make them, and no one would buy them. Both types have their advantages and disadvantages, and each may be a better choice than the other in any particular application. Sealed subs have measurably and audibly lower group-delay (ringing) than do ported (though the Rythmik Servo-Feedback system minimizes the difference), and better take advantage of the room gain of smaller volumes. They also have a slower, shallower low-frequency roll-off below resonance, ultimately playing lower in frequency than a comparable ported. Greatest SPL output at a ported sub's tuning frequency is NOT the only criteria by which to judge and choose a subwoofer---it depends on one's priorities. Bond's reasoning could, in a similar fashion, lead one to the conclusion that horn-type loudspeakers are the best, simply because they are the most sensitive and efficient. What about transparency, scale, imaging, and lack of vowel coloration? The award goes to planars! It's ultimately about knowing one's desires and needs, and prioritizing to get the sound one wants, isn't it?
I said "little" acoustical benefit. Those nitpicks are little imo and none of them have any relevance in Chipless case.
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post #16955 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
The FV15HP has more output below 16hz, but from 16-20hz the PB13-Ultra has the edge (very slight edge). Once they both hit 30hz the Rythmik starts to pull away above that. These numbers are when the PB13 is in 15hz mode and the FV15HP in one port mode. I pulled this information from the static graphs on data-bass.com. Another comparison I looked at was 20hz mode for the PB and two port mode for the Rythmik. Looks like the PB has an edge from 20-25hz, but from 16-20hz and once again above 30hz the FV pulls away.
Yes but the FV15HP was tested with the limiter off...so I wonder how much output it would of put out with the limiter on? It is only apples to apples to compare both subs with the limiter engaged. I would be willing to bet due to this the output is very close between the 2 subs. I still think the FV presents a better value.
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post #16956 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 08:27 AM
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Yes but the FV15HP was tested with the limiter off...so I wonder how much output it would of put out with the limiter on? It is only apples to apples to compare both subs with the limiter engaged. I would be willing to bet due to this the output is very close between the 2 subs. I still think the FV presents a better value.
Good point. Maybe Brian can chime in and answer this.

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post #16957 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 08:49 AM
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Yes but the FV15HP was tested with the limiter off...so I wonder how much output it would of put out with the limiter on? It is only apples to apples to compare both subs with the limiter engaged. I would be willing to bet due to this the output is very close between the 2 subs. I still think the FV presents a better value.

The limiter is around one db difference. The amplifier H600 (class H) does not have so-called digital clipping noise (which sound like to frightening metallic clash noise if you ever test any digital amp without limiter and that is what SVS amps and other digital amps try to avoid). So customers actually can turn the limiter OFF on our H600 amps without hearing any metallic noise. Our clipping noise will be mostly sound like a large bird beating wings. So there is no way you can get an apple to apple comparison between these subs. There are other difference, but I won't go into detail.
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post #16958 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
The limiter is around one db difference. The amplifier H600 (class H) does not have so-called digital clipping noise (which sound like to frightening metallic clash noise if you ever test any digital amp without limiter and that is what SVS amps and other digital amps try to avoid). So customers actually can turn the limiter OFF on our H600 amps without hearing any metallic noise. Our clipping noise will be mostly sound like a large bird beating wings. So there is no way you can get an apple to apple comparison between these subs. There are other difference, but I won't go into detail.
Thanks for the reply. I wondered because when I looked at the Max long term power they both are very close. Slight edge to the PB around 18 & 40hz and slight edge for the FV from 22-32hz.
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post #16959 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 01:06 PM
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Note there is a lot more than just max output. Distortion, short and long term, should be much lower for a servo design like Rythmik.

Sealed subs often offer lower distortion than vented, especially around the port frequency, then fall off slower in amplitude response below their cut-off so a comparable sealed sub typically has a bit more output at very low frequencies. A servo can bring the vented designs pretty durn close to sealed in terms of distortion, however.

There are way too many variables to make generic comparisons IMO.
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post #16960 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 02:15 PM
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Note there is a lot more than just max output. Distortion, short and long term, should be much lower for a servo design like Rythmik.

Sealed subs often offer lower distortion than vented, especially around the port frequency, then fall off slower in amplitude response below their cut-off so a comparable sealed sub typically has a bit more output at very low frequencies. A servo can bring the vented designs pretty durn close to sealed in terms of distortion, however.

There are way too many variables to make generic comparisons IMO.
looking at data-bass sealed subs have higher distortion then vented below 30hz. And the PB13 actually measures cleaner then the FV15HP. They both do pretty well in that regard so I am not sure that you could tell a difference in room.
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post #16961 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 02:33 PM
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I said "little" acoustical benefit. Those nitpicks are little imo and none of them have any relevance in Chipless case.
Sealed versus ported certainly DOES have relevance in Chipless' case, as he said he would eventually be having his sub(s) in a smaller, sealed room. The advantage a sealed sub has over a ported in that scenario are far from "little nitpicks"; that's why Brian offers both, and recommends each for particular applications. If the difference between the two were so "little", would he, and other sub designers, offer both? The choice between a sealed and ported sub is the first and most basic choice one must make when adding a sub or two to one's system. If one finds "little" acoustical benefit of a sealed sub over a ported, that just might be an indicator of the quality of the system and/or room to which the sub is being added, and the expectations and standards of it's owner. In characterizing the difference between the two designs as nitpicking, well, isn't nitpicking what being an audiophile is all about?!

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post #16962 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
Sealed versus ported certainly DOES have relevance in Chipless' case, as he said he would eventually be having his sub(s) in a smaller, sealed room. The advantage a sealed sub has over a ported in that scenario are far from "little nitpicks"; that's why Brian offers both, and recommends each for particular applications. If the difference between the two were so "little", would he, and other sub designers, offer both? The choice between a sealed and ported sub is the first and most basic choice one must make when adding a sub or two to one's system. If one finds "little" acoustical benefit of a sealed sub over a ported, that just might be an indicator of the quality of the system and/or room to which the sub is being added, and the expectations and standards of it's owner. In characterizing the difference between the two designs as nitpicking, well, isn't nitpicking what being an audiophile is all about?!
There is very little acoustical benefit, if any, to a sealed sub for music compared to a ported sub. Why do people make sealed subs, you ask? Primarily because they are smaller and cheaper(since they are smaller). And for people that don't want tons of output for movies or don't want a giant ported sub and are willing to live with less output. Do they extend lower, yes, but this does almost nothing for most people in most situations. Sealed subs usually do not overtake ported subs in output until the frequency is too low to matter much anymore. As in below 15 Hz in many cases, often times even lower. Plenty of ported subs that still have more output than similar sealed subs as low as 12.5 Hz. In fact, the FV15HP has drastically higher output at 12.5 Hz than pretty much any ID sealed sub made.

Is there a sound quality difference? For people convinced a sealed sub is more "musical", "tighter", "crisper", "tastier", whatever people try to convince themselves of is usually true.

But there is also a darn good reason why, when you take some of the best ID subwoofers made in the world, eq them flat in the same room, pull the curtain, and have many extremely experienced subwoofer/audio enthusiasts listen to them, they cannot tell sealed from ported from horn. Of course, if the "audiophile" were to see the "tight" sealed sub, it would then have a clear sound quality difference.

Now, someone is sure to bring up the issue of ringing, which is normal around port tune. Well, I can definitively say that my ported subwoofer's 18Hz port tune does absolutely nothing to affect the sound of my 40Hz plus music.

Someone also mentioned sealed subs being lower in distortion. Basshead81 disputed that one pretty well..the truth is usually just the opposite, although this seems to be in the lower frequencies and would likely have no affect on most music.

To borrow your words, if one finds "drastic" acoustical benefit of a sealed sub over a ported, that just might be an indicator of the level at which the "audiophile" is fooling themselves, and how the expectations and standards of it's owner are able to deceive themselves into hearing things that are not there.

Also not saying there is "no" difference between ported and sealed. Most certainly there are. But the main difference is size, and one has much lower output in the lower frequencies that matter for movies. I would bet if you pitted two FV15HP's against two F15HP's in the same room, perfectly level matched and eq'd flat, pulled a curtain(to avoid bias), and played most normal music, no one would be able to tell the difference. IMO. YMMV.

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post #16963 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 07:18 PM
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There is very little acoustical benefit, if any, to a sealed sub for music compared to a ported sub. Why do people make sealed subs, you ask? Primarily because they are smaller and cheaper(since they are smaller). And for people that don't want tons of output for movies or don't want a giant ported sub and are willing to live with less output. Do they extend lower, yes, but this does almost nothing for most people in most situations. Sealed subs usually do not overtake ported subs in output until the frequency is too low to matter much anymore. As in below 15 Hz in many cases, often times even lower. Plenty of ported subs that still have more output than similar sealed subs as low as 12.5 Hz. In fact, the FV15HP has drastically higher output at 12.5 Hz than pretty much any ID sealed sub made.

Is there a sound quality difference? For people convinced a sealed sub is more "musical", "tighter", "crisper", "tastier", whatever people try to convince themselves of is usually true.

But there is also a darn good reason why, when you take some of the best ID subwoofers made in the world, eq them flat in the same room, pull the curtain, and have many extremely experienced subwoofer/audio enthusiasts listen to them, they cannot tell sealed from ported from horn. Of course, if the "audiophile" were to see the "tight" sealed sub, it would then have a clear sound quality difference.

Now, someone is sure to bring up the issue of ringing, which is normal around port tune. Well, I can definitively say that my ported subwoofer's 18Hz port tune does absolutely nothing to affect the sound of my 40Hz plus music.

Someone also mentioned sealed subs being lower in distortion. Basshead81 disputed that one pretty well..the truth is usually just the opposite, although this seems to be in the lower frequencies and would likely have no affect on most music.

To borrow your words, if one finds "drastic" acoustical benefit of a sealed sub over a ported, that just might be an indicator of the level at which the "audiophile" is fooling themselves, and how the expectations and standards of it's owner are able to deceive themselves into hearing things that are not there.

Also not saying there is "no" difference between ported and sealed. Most certainly there are. But the main difference is size, and one has much lower output in the lower frequencies that matter for movies. I would bet if you pitted two FV15HP's against two F15HP's in the same room, perfectly level matched and eq'd flat, pulled a curtain(to avoid bias), and played most normal music, no one would be able to tell the difference. IMO. YMMV.
One listener who prefers sealed to ported for music is Brian Ding. Where did "drastic" come from? Not me! Most subwoofers have for decades been found by critical listeners to be musically unacceptable when mated with high-resolution loudspeakers, such as planars (electrostatic, ribbon, magnetic-planar) because of their inability to blend seamlessly with the speakers, instead sounding like a caboose tacked onto the rear of the train, dragging along behind the music, holding onto bass notes after the harmonics of those notes, as reproduced by the main speakers, have ceased, thereby slowing down the pulse of the music and discombobulating the timing of the rhythm section (I'm a drummer) of a good band. This bothers some listeners more than others. It has nothing to do with sighted or blind listening, but rather long-term musical satisfaction. Home Theater sub users seem less concerned/bothered/aware of the phenomenon, prioritizing maximum output over maximum quality, which makes perfect sense. Critical music listeners will willingly sacrifice a little output for a little quality. If one finds ported subs to sound as good as sealed (or even better), cool. The good news is that there are now sealed AND ported subs which excel at both music and home theater, as Rythmik owners will gladly testify! Some of us built 4 cu.ft. sealed enclosures for the DIY F15HP (recommended by Brian), which is the same size as an FV15HP. Doing so maximizes the output capability of the sealed sub, though the ported sill bests it.
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post #16964 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 09:52 PM
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Thanks for the reply. I wondered because when I looked at the Max long term power they both are very close. Slight edge to the PB around 18 & 40hz and slight edge for the FV from 22-32hz.

Basshead, you didn't read the plots right. Let me explain and it is totally opposite of what you have previously thought. The following is where databass provides you with the "maximum output plot" for PB13. The plot is very simple, Josh just incrementally increased the input in 5db increment. If the output also increases accordingly, it means the subwoofer is still not hitting the limit. Note that this has to be read at individual frequency point. For instance, the light green (second topmost) is labelled as 110db. The orange is labelled as 115db. It is clear PB13U has already hit the limit below 35hz because the input asks for 5db increase, the output only gives us about 3db in return. Same thing is above 65hz. It clearly shows PB13U has already topped out.





The following is the plot for FV15HP. Notice the orange is 113db while the light green is 110. So the input only increases by 3db and coincidentally the output also increase exactly 3db for frequency above 30hz, meaning the sub is not hitting the limit yet above 30hz. So the question is why Josh only plotted up to the 113db curve , not 115db curve. As you may have known, testing is a quite a task. There can be a lot of tiny things being overlooked. But fortunately, Josh did test 115db for 2port mode as shown in the last plot. And you can see the output from 110db to 115 increases a solid 5db from 30hz above without any hint of topping out. So the actual ouptut above say 40hz can be even higher. My question is how much more credit are you willing to give to FV15HP. BTW, CEA-2010 burst tests shows just how much more FV15HP can output beyond this unplotted area. I hope this convinces you.


[EDIT] Since we are on the subject of FR, there is another difference among these plots. Frequency plots from non-servo subwoofers are highly dependent on the temperature of voice coil. Since Josh swept these plots incrementally from 90db to 115db or higher, one can imagine the the voice coil was cold when he did the very first 90db sweep. When it got to the highest 115db, the voice coil has already heated up. Normally Josh will stop at the highest SPL sweep and move on to the next test suite. I asked Josh to change the routine so that immediately after he was done with the highest sweep, run another 90db sweep again to see if the exact same 90db FR curve is repeatable. The new curve is labelled as "90db REPEAT". This is to test how "consistent/coherent" the subwoofer frequency response is under various operating conditions. As one can see in PB13U, there is a broad -1db difference at around 20hz and above 60hz. So what makes the voice coil heat up? It is the large bass signal which causes the voice coil to heat. But only it affects the FR of the large signal, it also affects the FR of the small signal even after the large bass signal is gone. This is worse than intermodulation distortion because intermodulation distortion will be gone as soon as the large bass signal is removed. But the thermal compression effect will linger longer even after the large bass signal is gone. This leads to fluctuation in FR. But in plots of our subs, they are almost identical except a couple of places with local ups and downs that were due to noise in measurements (Noise is different from compression because noise can be up and down and compression on the other hand is almost down). In fact, Josh commented that our compression perform so well compared to non-servo subwoofers. As long as our amplifier still have juice, there will be no compression due to voice coil tempeature. The observed compression on FV15HP at low frequency is due to port air compression. That type of compression will be absent in sealed subwoofers. Does this make sealed subwoofers better? It is one of the contributing factors.








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post #16965 of 16973 Old 11-21-2014, 10:23 PM
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Brian, I do not need convincing. If I had to choose between the FV15HP or PB13 I would take the Rythmik without a doubt. From my understanding Josh will only bump the compression test up 3db instead of the full 5db if the sub is no longer showing any increase in output on the low end. While the PB13 was showing compression on the 115db sweep in 15hz mode, it still increased output everywhere in the bandwidth. I attribute some of this behavior from the dsp tuning being distortion is still rather low. The FV15 on the other hand no longer increases in output below 23hz in 1port once pushed past 110db, so that is why it most likely was only driven to 113db on the final sweep. Port compression was setting in rather heavily past 110db.
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Sealed vs Ported

I think we got very passionate about sealed subwoofers vs ported subwoofers. I for one like the sound of sealed subs. As a result, when I design ported subs, I'd also like them to sound as close to sealed subs as possible, in particular when playing music. I can say I have achieved 9.5 out of 10. I have a distributor in India recently set up FV15HP in his HT show room. His feedback is FV15HP blends so very with any speaker that he paired with. I think that is significant and good for 100% HT-centric (maybe even down to 50% music/50% HT customers). But there are always customers who want the ultimate transparency. How do we identify them? The most likely trait is they have two separate systems (I am one of those), or they cannot give up their 2 channel pre-amp/power amp and use bypass feature of AVR or preamp. So I think this all broil down to the objective. If ultimate transparency is number one priority, the sealed sub (not just any sealed sub, but our sealed sub ) is the ways to go. Otherwise, any of our ported subs will be good.
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
One listener who prefers sealed to ported for music is Brian Ding. Where did "drastic" come from? Not me! Most subwoofers have for decades been found by critical listeners to be musically unacceptable when mated with high-resolution loudspeakers, such as planars (electrostatic, ribbon, magnetic-planar) because of their inability to blend seamlessly with the speakers, instead sounding like a caboose tacked onto the rear of the train, dragging along behind the music, holding onto bass notes after the harmonics of those notes, as reproduced by the main speakers, have ceased, thereby slowing down the pulse of the music and discombobulating the timing of the rhythm section (I'm a drummer) of a good band. This bothers some listeners more than others. It has nothing to do with sighted or blind listening, but rather long-term musical satisfaction. Home Theater sub users seem less concerned/bothered/aware of the phenomenon, prioritizing maximum output over maximum quality, which makes perfect sense. Critical music listeners will willingly sacrifice a little output for a little quality. If one finds ported subs to sound as good as sealed (or even better), cool. The good news is that there are now sealed AND ported subs which excel at both music and home theater, as Rythmik owners will gladly testify! Some of us built 4 cu.ft. sealed enclosures for the DIY F15HP (recommended by Brian), which is the same size as an FV15HP. Doing so maximizes the output capability of the sealed sub, though the ported sill bests it.
Well, in all honesty, if money were no object and I were to buy subs from Rythmik, I would likely strongly consider dual F25's. What I do like about sealed subs is that, no matter how hard they are driven, you will never get port noise. Unfortunately, budget is still a strong consideration for me. So to most cost effectively get the low end output I want(for movies), I would lean towards the FV15HP. It easily gives all the output I need 99.99% of the time for music, and, although i have not listened to one, I am pretty confident I would be happy with the sound quality for music. After all, I have inexpensive speakers, bottom of the barrel AVR, and most likely horrible room acoustics since I have no treatments. And supposedly(don't mean this in a doubtful way, just not knowledgeable enough) the servo technology helps in this regard.

AVR:       Yamaha RXV-375

Display:  Panasonic  TH-50PC77U

LCR:       Hsu HB1.2  HC1.2

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Blu Ray:  Sony BDP-S5100

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post #16968 of 16973 Old Yesterday, 02:55 PM
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An FV15HP in every corner of the house for me please. Anybody got 25 grand I can borrow?
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post #16969 of 16973 Old Yesterday, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
An FV15HP in every corner of the house for me please. Anybody got 25 grand I can borrow?
For better bass, an FV15HP at every wall's mid-length!
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post #16970 of 16973 Old Yesterday, 03:59 PM
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For better bass, an FV15HP at every wall's mid-length!
lol Perhaps. But you can't say that for sure.
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post #16971 of 16973 Old Yesterday, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Sealed vs Ported

I think we got very passionate about sealed subwoofers vs ported subwoofers. I for one like the sound of sealed subs. As a result, when I design ported subs, I'd also like them to sound as close to sealed subs as possible, in particular when playing music. I can say I have achieved 9.5 out of 10. I have a distributor in India recently set up FV15HP in his HT show room. His feedback is FV15HP blends so very with any speaker that he paired with. I think that is significant and good for 100% HT-centric (maybe even down to 50% music/50% HT customers). But there are always customers who want the ultimate transparency. How do we identify them? The most likely trait is they have two separate systems (I am one of those), or they cannot give up their 2 channel pre-amp/power amp and use bypass feature of AVR or preamp. So I think this all broil down to the objective. If ultimate transparency is number one priority, the sealed sub (not just any sealed sub, but our sealed sub ) is the ways to go. Otherwise, any of our ported subs will be good.
Brian, how close is an FV15HP with both ports plugged to an F15HP? Would this be reasonable for ultimate flexibility between music and HT?

Thanks,

Brian
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post #16972 of 16973 Old Yesterday, 04:38 PM
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^^ The FV15hp is not designed to operate in 2 ports plugged.
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post #16973 of 16973 Old Today, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ergopower View Post
Brian, how close is an FV15HP with both ports plugged to an F15HP? Would this be reasonable for ultimate flexibility between music and HT?

Brian

Plugging both ports in FV15HP is a bit closeer to F15HP, but it is still not exactly the same. Plugging two plugs in FV15HP only makes it an aperiodic enclosure, not sealed enclosure becasue the sponge plug can still compress and contributes to distortion. Another risk of plugging two ports in FV15HP is driver can potentially over-excursion because insufficient back pressure to limit the excursion. Our drivers are highly compliant type. This is a design decision we make in order to reproduce a more dynamic sound. It one takes our driver in the free air, it is very easy to push the cone. Other less compliant drivers need a ton of force to move the cone in free air.
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer



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