Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 589 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17641 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 08:10 AM
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It is nice to see some discussion on the strings and it is lowest frequency. I need to emphasize that those frequencies are the steady state nature (resonance) frequency of the string. If we look at microscopically how the sound of strings come about, it happens in a sequence. We first pluck the string. Now that plucking actually injects an impulse-like energy that covers a pretty wide band. Only the energy with frequency matching the natural frequency of the string will continue with the least amount of attenuation. But this process takes time. If we have a speakers with really full range (like one with good subwoofer), what we hear is the entire process of this sound making exactly as how it happens in live performance. This includes drum and most other natural instruments. If we only play the natural frequency of the string and filter out all these "transient noise" each time, it will for sure sound a lot like like early day MIDI.

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post #17642 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by pstrisik View Post
Even better!

If the output of two single driver units is sufficient, is there any advantage that the dual driver units have in terms of sound?

To use those 8" drivers in subwoofer configuation, we need at least 2 drivers. So more drivers will give you more output. However, will the customers spend that type of money for two 600WRMS midbass modules? Maybe no (unless it is an high output system) and hence the idea of just use one driver per channel.


Quote:

You specify output for 80-200. Would it be set up the same way with a 50Hz HPF or differently? And would the output at 80-200 be the same even if HPF is lower?


Does the amp have the same controls, inputs, layout?


Max SPL output at each frequency point is same regardless our filter setting. The amp will have the same control, input, and layout. The smallest size you can make is determined by the amplifier dimension.


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Sounds like a kit. What skill level would be required? Would I do the cabinet finish myself?
Do you have the price yet (along with shipping weight and dimensions - always important to us way up here in Alaska).
Sorry for all the questions - but you've got me excited about the possibilities!
I cannot answer these question right now. Let me contact my supplier and see what they can do.
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post #17643 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
To use those 8" drivers in subwoofer configuation, we need at least 2 drivers. So more drivers will give you more output. However, will the customers spend that type of money for two 600WRMS midbass modules? Maybe no (unless it is an high output system) and hence the idea of just use one driver per channel.

--------

Max SPL output at each frequency point is same regardless our filter setting. The amp will have the same control, input, and layout. The smallest size you can make is determined by the amplifier dimension.

--------

I cannot answer these question right now. Let me contact my supplier and see what they can do.
Yes, please do. I think this is a speaker that is just beginning to garner some interest. I only know of one other manufacturer doing a dedicated mid-bass module so far (non-servo with 12" down-firing driver ).

As I think about it, DIY may be preferable for me. I would have a local cabinet maker make the boxes. I was planning to upgrade my Omega floor standers to his flagship floorstander (Super Alnico XRS), but I'm thinking, with your option, that I would do just as well with the monitor version of his flagship (Super Alnico Monitor). This would give me 13-15" for a stand. 2" is for base or feet. If I can keep the height to 11", it would be ideal for a base to set the monitors on top of. The monitors are 11" wide, so, with height and width both at 11", the depth is where I would design for the correct volume maybe with the amp mounted at an angle in the back to keep the height at 11" or even in their own box to place behind. (All just thinking out loud).

So... looking forward to hearing more details.

Thanks.........

.
. . . . . . . . . . . Peter
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post #17644 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
It is nice to see some discussion on the strings and it is lowest frequency. I need to emphasize that those frequencies are the steady state nature (resonance) frequency of the string. If we look at microscopically how the sound of strings come about, it happens in a sequence. We first pluck the string. Now that plucking actually injects an impulse-like energy that covers a pretty wide band. Only the energy with frequency matching the natural frequency of the string will continue with the least amount of attenuation. But this process takes time. If we have a speakers with really full range (like one with good subwoofer), what we hear is the entire process of this sound making exactly as how it happens in live performance. This includes drum and most other natural instruments. If we only play the natural frequency of the string and filter out all these "transient noise" each time, it will for sure sound a lot like like early day MIDI.
Right, right. The fundamental of the open E string bass note is 42Hz, but of course the string also creates harmonics of the 42Hz E note, and all other notes played. It is the relative strength of the harmonics (and their resonance duration) that creates different timbres from different, for instance, basses (different makes of drums as well, as well as the effect of different drumheads). Music is a very complex, constantly changing signal, and the recording and reproducing of it one of mankind's greatest achievements (IMO!). Imagine if we had recordings of Bach playing his Organ Concertos, or Mozart his for piano, or Beethoven conducting one of his Symphonies? Ah well, better late (not until the late 19th Century and into the 20th) than never!
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post #17645 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
It is nice to see some discussion on the strings and it is lowest frequency. I need to emphasize that those frequencies are the steady state nature (resonance) frequency of the string. If we look at microscopically how the sound of strings come about, it happens in a sequence. We first pluck the string. Now that plucking actually injects an impulse-like energy that covers a pretty wide band. Only the energy with frequency matching the natural frequency of the string will continue with the least amount of attenuation. But this process takes time. If we have a speakers with really full range (like one with good subwoofer), what we hear is the entire process of this sound making exactly as how it happens in live performance. This includes drum and most other natural instruments. If we only play the natural frequency of the string and filter out all these "transient noise" each time, it will for sure sound a lot like like early day MIDI.
As usual Brian and I are on the same page, and that was the point I was making earlier. It is not just the lowest fundamental of the string on a bass that you miss, it's all that (much) lower-frequency percussive stuff when they are plucked, or hit (piano), and the percussive waves from percussion instruments (not just drums) that a sub really helps bring out.

For years I swore I didn't really need a subwoofer for music (back then there was no HT). Then I got one (*). The next few decades, up to and including the present, I've been swearing I can't do without one. For music or anything else. I do not understand the "sub does not matter for music" viewpoint from people who actually own a sub and choose to not use it for music. Unless it's a bad sub, in which case you're reading the wrong thread.

IME/IMO - Don

(*) Actually, I bought speakers with another octave on the low end and realized what I was missing. I switched to panels, losing the bass again, and as a result finally built my own servo sub as a college kid because I didn't like most of the subs I heard and couldn't afford a good sub. I used my homebrew sub to convince numerous friends and customers that they really needed a sub unless all they listened to was AM radio.
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #17646 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 12:56 PM
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Just saw this after my previous post. I'm glad its working for you. just wait until REW. I drive myself crazy with measurements. Lol
i bet! not only will i be driving myself crazy with measurements but the ol lady as well hahah.

with all audyssey has done it has eaten up quiet a bit of headroom through EQ. when i get the next sub finished and have one in each corner I'm hoping for a better natural response hence added headroom due not not so extreme EQ

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post #17647 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 01:17 PM
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Wow, thanks for the info! I have played and run sound for numerous rock, jazz big band etc. groups and still did not know all this. Not to mention my time in the orchestra, where all bass is acoustic bass. I thought "bass guitar" meant an electric bass in contrast to the big upright acoustic bass.

And just because I gotta' say it -- isn't bass a fish?

Duckin' and runnin' - Don
Sound guys call the bass drum of a drumset the "kick", to avoid confusion with the (electric) bass. Think of it this way: The acoustic/stand-up/double bass and the electric bass have the same scale and play the same notes. The stand-up bass produces sound completely acoustically, the electric completely electronically, via a "pickup" mounted on it's the body under the strings, which converts the vibrations of the strings into an electrical signal. Now, what if you place a pick-up on the body of an acoustic bass, as is often done when one is played live with electric guitars? That acoustic bass now creates sound the same way the electric bass does, via an electrical signal created by a pickup. So is it now, too, a bass "guitar"? No! It's still a bass, and so is an electric. Using a pick-up on a bass does NOT turn a bass into a guitar. Have I beaten this horse to death yet?!
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post #17648 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 01:47 PM
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As usual Brian and I are on the same page, and that was the point I was making earlier. It is not just the lowest fundamental of the string on a bass that you miss, it's all that (much) lower-frequency percussive stuff when they are plucked, or hit (piano), and the percussive waves from percussion instruments (not just drums) that a sub really helps bring out.

For years I swore I didn't really need a subwoofer for music (back then there was no HT). Then I got one (*). The next few decades, up to and including the present, I've been swearing I can't do without one. For music or anything else. I do not understand the "sub does not matter for music" viewpoint from people who actually own a sub and choose to not use it for music. Unless it's a bad sub, in which case you're reading the wrong thread.

IME/IMO - Don

(*) Actually, I bought speakers with another octave on the low end and realized what I was missing. I switched to panels, losing the bass again, and as a result finally built my own servo sub as a college kid because I didn't like most of the subs I heard and couldn't afford a good sub. I used my homebrew sub to convince numerous friends and customers that they really needed a sub unless all they listened to was AM radio.

It's surprising, but a grand piano's bottom keys actually produce lower fundamental frequencies than does a bass! And a full-size pipe organ's lowest bass pedal creates a 16HZ tone! A subwoofer (or an extremely good woofer) is an absolute requirement for full scale reproduction of orchestral music recorded in a large venue (Church, Concert Hall). Not just to reproduce the sound of the instruments, but also the room itself, which creates single-digit frequency information (in- and out-of-phase). Bach and Mozart wrote music specifically to be performed in a Church (Bach wrote a lot of his music simply to have something to play on Sunday at his day job, that of Church organist. The only reason the sheet music survived is because it was stored safely, perhaps for a possible second performance. Most of Bach's music was performed only once during his lifetime!), whose interior size and acoustics were designed and intended to create a sound huge enough to give glory to God. For those who listen only to studio recordings, very few "full"-range speakers actual produce much useable (high enough in SPL at low enough distortion) output at even that 42Hz open-E string low note of a bass, no matter what the claim. But by trying to, the woofers of those speakers compromise their ability to reproduce mid and upper bass (and even midrange sound, if the woofer operates that high in frequency. Lots of 2-way speakers have a cross-over frequency from the woofer to tweeter at 1500-2000Hz). Taking away from a woofer the job of reproducing the lowest bass is one of the best reasons for using sub or two in a music system, no matter what music is played on it.

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post #17649 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 02:00 PM
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IIRC 27 Hz IIRC is the fundamental of the lowest string on a full-size grand; the big Bosendorfer's go a little lower.

There are a couple of organs in the world with 64' stops and one that I have read about with a 128' stop so even lower than 16 Hz...

Difference tones from an organ or orchestra create subharmonics that can go very low in pitch. One of those things you miss without a subwoofer.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #17650 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 05:38 PM
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Sup dudes..I was watching Edge of Tomorrow the other day and the opening credits have three LOUD low bass tones. I believe someone on this thread said to watch out for those cuz they're "nuking" subs. Anyway, my FV15HP port chuffed like crazy on the third and lowest of those tones. MV wasn't anywhere near reference level. Guys with FV15HPs, is there any way to cure this? Never thought that beast had any sort of limits, hence why I bought it. My settings are 14/Hi/1 port/rumble filter off.
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post #17651 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 05:45 PM
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^^ what volume you were listening at? I listened to that scene at my normal -15MV on my pair with same setting as yours and no chuffing or bad noise whatsoever. Remember that scene reaches 120db down low.
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post #17652 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by klh1790 View Post
Sup dudes..I was watching Edge of Tomorrow the other day and the opening credits have three LOUD low bass tones. I believe someone on this thread said to watch out for those cuz they're "nuking" subs. Anyway, my FV15HP port chuffed like crazy on the third and lowest of those tones. MV wasn't anywhere near reference level. Guys with FV15HPs, is there any way to cure this? Never thought that beast had any sort of limits, hence why I bought it. My settings are 14/Hi/1 port/rumble filter off.
I have mine at 14/low/2 port/rumble filter on and it just coasts through that scene at -10 like a boss. I'll have to try it on one port and see how it does, But that is a LOT of air being moved out of one 3.5" port.
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post #17653 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by klh1790 View Post
Sup dudes..I was watching Edge of Tomorrow the other day and the opening credits have three LOUD low bass tones. I believe someone on this thread said to watch out for those cuz they're "nuking" subs. Anyway, my FV15HP port chuffed like crazy on the third and lowest of those tones. MV wasn't anywhere near reference level. Guys with FV15HPs, is there any way to cure this? Never thought that beast had any sort of limits, hence why I bought it. My settings are 14/Hi/1 port/rumble filter off.
"Doctor, it hurts when I do that. What should I do?"

So, your expectation is really that it has no limits?

I wonder what they did at theaters.

It was pretty crazy on 4x F25s. I didn't have to guts to try at reference, though.
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post #17654 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
"Doctor, it hurts when I do that. What should I do?"

So, your expectation is really that it has no limits?

I wonder what they did at theaters.

It was pretty crazy on 4x F25s. I didn't have to guts to try at reference, though.

wussy

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post #17655 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 07:22 PM
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jk rcohen! i played it at -10 and and didn't push harder than that, and you know what I'm packing for subs to
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post #17656 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
"Doctor, it hurts when I do that. What should I do?"

So, your expectation is really that it has no limits?

I wonder what they did at theaters.

It was pretty crazy on 4x F25s. I didn't have to guts to try at reference, though.
as long as you have the limiter on, the sub should be safe. Most of the dead subs seems to be diy
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post #17657 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 08:09 PM
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as long as you have the limiter on, the sub should be safe. Most of the dead subs seems to be diy

The big (usually 18" driver) DIY subs I've seen are nothing more than a driver or two in a big box with a pro power amp feeding it. Rather under-engineered, IMO.
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post #17658 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
On the control of F8, we have 3 positions: low-music, low-HT, and high. In the mod (which we will call it F-M8 or FM-8), I will make that high position to a 50hz/24 HPF. It is a perfect setup for another sub with also 50hz/24 LPF (such as our F12) when both accept the same input. This will simply any auto EQ.


There have been midbas products on the market. Our F8 is orginally designed as a wide-bandwidth subwoofer intended to use at higher crossover. Now we can use FM-8 as either a standalone subwoofer or as a midbass module.
Brian,

Interesting concept of having the F8 as a mid bass module. So the thinking is to use satellite speakers for 200Hz and up to 20kHz, then use bass management within the pre/pro/AVR for below 200Hz? I.e. the satellite speaker are powered by the amp/AVR while the mid bass and sub are considered as active speakers.

Physical connection wise, it would be using RCA connections: LFE out of pre/pro/AVR ---> F8 ---> sub

Would like to know how to integrate the mid bass and subs.

How close does the F8 mid bass module need to be to the satellite speaker? How does one go about matching the levels and phase between the mid bass module and sub? Both at the same mid-point to start. How about phase, would it be set to zero initially?

Is 200Hz the top end that the F8 can reliably go up to and is the bottom end around 50Hz?

Thanks.

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post #17659 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 08:25 PM
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The big (usually 18" driver) DIY subs I've seen are nothing more than a driver or two in a big box with a pro power amp feeding it. Rather under-engineered, IMO.
Someone should make an Ikea version of a servo one. (hint)

Or, maybe 8x 15" drivers is a good compromise.
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post #17660 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
as long as you have the limiter on, the sub should be safe. Most of the dead subs seems to be diy
"Should" as the operative word. So, are all the dead subs DIY, or just most?

It would be fun to push it, but I think Brian is getting tired of cleaning up my messes.

BTW, thanks for all the help, Brian! You are too generous with your time, but I appreciate it!
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post #17661 of 20169 Old 02-09-2015, 11:24 PM
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I have mine at 14/low/2 port/rumble filter on and it just coasts through that scene at -10 like a boss. I'll have to try it on one port and see how it does, But that is a LOT of air being moved out of one 3.5" port.
Hmmmm. I've never tried 2 port but this might be a good reason to experiment. I think I had MV at -14 when I heard the chuffing in 1 port mode. Rcohen, maybe I shouldn't think of that as a limitation of the FV15HP, but more of just logic that pushing that much air out of a 3.5" port is gonna make noise. Idk. I just always read on here that no one ever hears port noise from their FV15HPs when they dig that deep so why did mine do it? But seriously, I've had this wonderful beast for almost a year with no complaints. It literally spoils your ears rotten bass-wise. You hear anyone else's subs and think to yourself "Ughh..sounds gross..". Other than this movie scene and a few insanely bassy moments playing Call of Duty AW, I've never heard a port chuff. But I'd like to never hear it again so I'll try 2 port and see how that goes.
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post #17662 of 20169 Old 02-10-2015, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by turbojohngt View Post
I have mine at 14/low/2 port/rumble filter on and it just coasts through that scene at -10 like a boss. I'll have to try it on one port and see how it does, But that is a LOT of air being moved out of one 3.5" port.
Hmmmm. I've never tried 2 port but this might be a good reason to experiment. I think I had MV at -14 when I heard the chuffing in 1 port mode. Rcohen, maybe I shouldn't think of that as a limitation of the FV15HP, but more of just logic that pushing that much air out of a 3.5" port is gonna make noise. Idk. I just always read on here that no one ever hears port noise from their FV15HPs when they dig that deep so why did mine do it? But seriously, I've had this wonderful beast for almost a year with no complaints. It literally spoils your ears rotten bass-wise. You hear anyone else's subs and think to yourself "Ughh..sounds gross..". Other than this movie scene and a few insanely bassy moments playing Call of Duty AW, I've never heard a port chuff. But I'd like to never hear it again so I'll try 2 port and see how that goes.
It did it because you played the loudest, lowest clip ever in a movie at reference.

It's great that Rythmik offers all the options. Definitely good to experiment. That said, my personal favorite by far was 14/hi/rumble off/1 port, but you do sacrifice some output for that. No free lunch.

For more output, you can try near field placement, other settings, or get a second one.
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post #17663 of 20169 Old 02-10-2015, 05:20 AM
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My FV's chuffed slightly on that scene too for about a second or two at -15 on the last note. Like others have said that opening scene goes low and loud. I've yet to experience chuffing with any other movie, so far with duals and I've tried that scene with both ports open (no chuffing). Like others have stated everything has its limits when pushed hard enough even the mighty FV15HP.
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post #17664 of 20169 Old 02-10-2015, 07:44 AM
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I did not like 2 ports open in my ~2600ft^3 sealed room when I tried as it really missed the low octave bass. 1 port/14hi is what I have been sticking with. I have tried/measured/listened to pretty much all of the setting combo possible.
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post #17665 of 20169 Old 02-10-2015, 03:25 PM
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The big (usually 18" driver) DIY subs I've seen are nothing more than a driver or two in a big box with a pro power amp feeding it. Rather under-engineered, IMO.

Most of the DIY guys are running amps with DSP built in, or they are running a MiniDSP. Either way, they are utilizing HPFs and sometimes limiters depending on the setup. Besides, the 18" subs in properly sized enclosures have a lot more capability to handle scenes like the one in EOT.
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post #17666 of 20169 Old 02-10-2015, 04:23 PM
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^^
+1

7.3 w/ denon x4100
JTR noesis 228s LCR
Ascend acoustics cmt 340se side ss.
ascend acoustics cbm170se rear ss
Dual rythmik fv15hps/ 1 LV12r
Verticle Marty/UXL 18 powered with inuke 6kw DSP (and another Marty in the making)
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post #17667 of 20169 Old 02-10-2015, 05:32 PM
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^^^ dude you have some nice speakers and subs. You gotta upgrade that receiver it appears to be the only weak link in your setup.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #17668 of 20169 Old 02-10-2015, 05:46 PM
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I'm posting some pics of turbojohns matte black FV15HP as there doesn't seem to be really any out there.
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post #17669 of 20169 Old 02-10-2015, 05:49 PM
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And another!
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post #17670 of 20169 Old 02-10-2015, 06:21 PM
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And another!
Good God they look nice. Was supposed to order Monday but the funds won't come through until tomorrow. Cannot wait as I'm ordering two!
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