Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 598 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 03-02-2015, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Another usage model of FM8.

I have another customer with Magnepans CC5 (only plays down to 200hz) and wonder how he can use F8 as a double duty with a sub like F25. I don't recomemd to play F25 up to 200hz (otherwise we don't need F8/FM8 models and also because localization of sound above 80hz).


Now one difficulty is while in AVR we can set different crossover frequency for L/C/R, it is the L/R crossover setting that determines the subwoofer crossover point, not center channel. In this case, one really needs to make center channel full range and feed both center channel and SUB channel to FM8 and place it next to center CC5. Connect the subwoofer RCA output to the sub. On FM8, set the bass extension to 50hz/24. On F25 (or sub), set the LPF to 50hz/24. In this arrangement all the content of 200hz down to 50hz in the AVR SUB output will be played via FM8. I think this arrangement should work better than having F8 and F25 overlap between say 80hz down to 20hz and lower.

An alternative is to set the F8 play from 200hz all the way down to 20hz. In that case, we just need to careful not to over load the F8 in the 20hz to 80hz range as the subwoofer should provide the most output in that range.
I was thinking of this post when asking question 2) above. I realize there is only one FM8 in the example by Brian, and I am talking about using a pair, connected in stereo (in the front corners, on top of an E15HP pair).
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Old 03-02-2015, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mia & Lana's dad View Post
As for the FM8, I run them with a 200hz XO. The speed and slam are to die for. There is no degradation of dialog or vocals with the integration of mains and center. During Audyssey, my mains were detected as large, and gave no choice higher than 80hz to choose. Post Audyssey, I manually set mains, center, and surrounds to 200hz. There is no localization present in my configuration to my ears. There is however massive slam if the material calls for it. Otherwise, it blends seamlessly and you wouldn't know they're there if you didn't see them.

-Ron
What do you use for mains - how far do they go on the own (and still sound good), and did you try a crossover of 100, 120, an 150 hz - just for the heck of it :-D ?

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Old 03-02-2015, 07:34 AM
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This is very similar to what I experienced comparing opposite corners to front corners, except the difference was even more pronounced.

The yellow curve looks near ideal.
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Old 03-02-2015, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Mia & Lana's dad View Post
my room is L-shaped, but the section where the system is primarily limited to measures 11' x 11' with 8' ceiling. The actual width of the front wall is 22' and the setup is situated to right half. The far corner E15 stack used to play up front with the mains, but I wanted the ULF and was able to exchange places with a bookshelf that previously occupied the far corner. The near corner E15 stack appears not to contribute much, but it is next to the couch and helped smooth out the response. I didn't think it would after seeing how it measures on its own, but when I remove it, the tactile effects as well as the response down low degrades.
-Ron
OK, I misunderstood you - I thought you placed the four E15HP in each their corner (in a rectangular room). So you stacked two in the near corner and two in the far corner - both front wall?
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Old 03-02-2015, 07:56 AM
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What do you use for mains - how far do they go on the own (and still sound good), and did you try a crossover of 100, 120, an 150 hz - just for the heck of it :-D ?

Jacob
my mains are Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 (originals, non-NRT) stacked horizontally in an array of 4 placed on custom sound anchor stands. They measure Large and extend very well on their own. I could run them full range and sound excellent. I relieve them of low and midbass duty, and run a higher XO with them to improve high SPL clarity and dynamics especially for movies. I did try lower XO's, they all sound excellent and could live with any of them. The slam factor is what always brings me back to 200hz (the highest option available on my pre-pro). I stress there is no loss of intelligibility, muddiness, or bloat. It's really awesome, but tricky to integrate. It takes a lot of tweaking and patience to achieve the sound you're after. That's what makes this so fun!
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:02 AM
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OK, I misunderstood you - I thought you placed the four E15HP in each their corner (in a rectangular room). So you stacked two in the near corner and two in the far corner - both front wall?
2x E15 stacks in opposite corners, not sharing the front wall.

Last edited by Mia & Lana's dad; 03-02-2015 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:07 AM
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OK, I misunderstood you - I thought you placed the four E15HP in each their corner (in a rectangular room). So you stacked two in the near corner and two in the far corner - both front wall?
If you have a rectangular room that supports 4 corner placement, that's hard to beat.
Stacking in opposite corners might give you a bit more output.
The neat thing about 4 corner placement, though, is that you get lots of output and more consistent response for a bigger area.
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:12 AM
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This is very similar to what I experienced comparing opposite corners to front corners, except the difference was even more pronounced.

The yellow curve looks near ideal.
I also have a miniDSP 2x4 balanced yet to introduce into the chain. I've got plenty of other ideas to try before adding it in. I used to have room for a lot of Gik acoustics panels, but not anymore. I get significant room gain in the corners for each E15 stack that presents a very interesting challenge to overcome. Right now, there's a -12db cut with 11 clicks of bandwidth centered around 25-30hz on the far corner E15 stack. The near corner stack is also cutting just as much but with different parameters I can't recall off the top of my head. But what I do remember though, is that I'm running aggressive XO slope and LPF @ 20hz with the near stack, but still get massive response between 50-90hz I suspect just by it being in that corner.
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Mia & Lana's dad View Post
The slam factor is what always brings me back to 200hz (the highest option available on my pre-pro). I stress there is no loss of intelligibility, muddiness, or bloat. It's really awesome, but tricky to integrate. It takes a lot of tweaking and patience to achieve the sound you're after. That's what makes this so fun!
What kind of tweaking was required - besides trying different placements?
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:53 AM
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What kind of tweaking was required - besides trying different placements?
There is literally no feature, knob, or switch on the Rythmik amps that have not been called for duty in shaping my room's response to my desire. There are seemingly infinite possibilities. Once you realize this, it may seem daunting. But fear not, it is gloriously satisfying as you begin to reap the benefits from your meticulous effort toward that "ideal" response. Trust your ears in the end and try not to let your brain convince you otherwise. I'm guilty of that. I feel the need to chase every peak and dip but there needs to come a point where perfect should not be the enemy of good. Some days I just get the urge to tweak and others, I allow myself to enjoy the current tune.
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Old 03-02-2015, 09:29 AM
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Do you only use the eq in the subs or also receiver eq?
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Old 03-02-2015, 09:31 AM
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with the fv15hp I am getting a nasty 20hz peak is there a way to deal with this on the amp, Or will I need a minidsp?(avr only goes down to 38hz for it's sub peq.)
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:13 AM
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with the fv15hp I am getting a nasty 20hz peak is there a way to deal with this on the amp, Or will I need a minidsp?(avr only goes down to 38hz for it's sub peq.)
You can use the PEQ on the amp to tame that peak.


Display - LG 65EF9500
Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:24 AM
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Do you only use the eq in the subs or also receiver eq?
I use both. The pre-pro EQ is largely automatic room correction by means of calibrating with Audyssey. Having independent sub control is very flexible. It's there if you want to leverage it, but it isn't always necessary to enjoy good sound starting with basic recommended settings.
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Old 03-02-2015, 02:19 PM
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Lucky you


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with the fv15hp I am getting a nasty 20hz peak is there a way to deal with this on the amp, Or will I need a minidsp?(avr only goes down to 38hz for it's sub peq.)
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Old 03-02-2015, 05:14 PM
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My theater is on the second floor and while I enjoy the tactile feeling from the suspended floor, I recently discover the popping noises on a few different spots of the suspended floor when walking around this floor. I am sure my FV pair is responsible for that. No wonder, my wife keeps phoning me and says 'TOO LOUD'. This is with -15MV with just a 3-6db low shelf and not running subs hot. I don't dare to listen any louder when she is at home.
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Old 03-02-2015, 06:26 PM
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My theater is on the second floor and while I enjoy the tactile feeling from the suspended floor, I recently discover the popping noises on a few different spots of the suspended floor when walking around this floor. I am sure my FV pair is responsible for that. No wonder, my wife keeps phoning me and says 'TOO LOUD'. This is with -15MV with just a 3-6db low shelf and not running subs hot. I don't dare to listen any louder when she is at home.
I've listened to a system on a suspended floor and there was some serious tactile feel. This was with dual LV12R's I can only imagine what dual FV15HP's would be like.

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Old 03-03-2015, 01:26 AM
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Anyway, I am VERY intrigued by your setup. I believe its what I am looking for, see my earlier post here.

1) If the room is not too wide, would it be possible to place the two FM8 on TOP of two front corner loaded E15HPs (i.e. stacked with an E15HP), rather than inside the mains? That would position the FM8 about 1.5-2 feet to the outside of my mains.
Anybody tried this? The idea would be to maximize timing of the mid-bass, by having the reflections off the walls in front corners arrive at the MLP at the same time as the front wave.

Jacob
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Old 03-03-2015, 03:42 AM
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Anybody tried this? The idea would be to maximize timing of the mid-bass, by having the reflections off the walls in front corners arrive at the MLP at the same time as the front wave.

Jacob
The problem with trying to get constructive interference on one frequency is that it will give you nulls on neighboring frequencies.

Ideally, you either get the speakers close enough to the wall/corner so that the wavelength is high enough to have more directivity control (or better in a baffle wall), or else you get it far enough away from the wall that the reflected energy is much lower than the direct energy. It's the middle ground that's problematic.
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Old 03-03-2015, 04:30 AM
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The problem with trying to get constructive interference on one frequency is that it will give you nulls on neighboring frequencies.

Ideally, you either get the speakers close enough to the wall/corner so that the wavelength is high enough to have more directivity control (or better in a baffle wall), or else you get it far enough away from the wall that the reflected energy is much lower than the direct energy. It's the middle ground that's problematic.
But front corner loading both low and mid bass woofers (E15HP and FM8) should should make the omni-directional, long wave length low and mid bass waves bouncing off the floor/front wall/side wall arrive phase-aligned at the seats, right?

It's not the nulls and peaks I would try to minimize, it's an attempt to optimize the precision of the bass (to complement the Rythmiks :-) )
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Old 03-03-2015, 05:01 AM
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If you have a rectangular room that supports 4 corner placement, that's hard to beat.
Stacking in opposite corners might give you a bit more output.
The neat thing about 4 corner placement, though, is that you get lots of output and more consistent response for a bigger area.
Corner loading maximizes output, but there is a price to be paid as well---room "loading" is also maximized, exciting every resonance and mode in the room resulting from it's dimensions. Locating four subs on the four walls of a rectangular room sacrifices some output for smoother, less boomy bass. Corner loading also requires adjusting the phase of all four subs electronically only, whereas wall placement allows for some adjustment via the physical location of the subs.
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Old 03-03-2015, 07:05 AM
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The corner loading excited room modes can be dealt with using EQ (and bass traps), while loss of precision cannot be regained by the use of EQ.
That, at least, is the argument used by Steinway-Lyngdorf in their appraised high-end HT systems.
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Old 03-03-2015, 07:08 AM
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Lucky you
It's a hard room, I can't seem to find a flatish response so far I have a front sub in right and back right corners
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Old 03-03-2015, 08:24 AM
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I agree, it's probably my best bet.

My only concerns are resale value if I ever sell. Does the lesser amp deter others. And warranty support...if it failed, could it be replaced with a 600, assuming the 550s are no longer available

Yes. That is the plan. H550 and H600 power amp modules are exactly the same except for power cap rating. That is why we can service H550 amps in the future using H600 power amp modules.
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:42 AM
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It's a hard room, I can't seem to find a flatish response so far I have a front sub in right and back right corners

This almost like you have a boarder cancellation between 20hz to 50hz, instead of two peaks. Do you have the plot when only one unit is ON? It is best to go through steps of plotting one sub at a time and then two subs together to identify the problem. Close-mic measurements can also be helpful to double check the sub response with as little room reflection as possible.
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:52 AM
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But front corner loading both low and mid bass woofers (E15HP and FM8) should should make the omni-directional, long wave length low and mid bass waves bouncing off the floor/front wall/side wall arrive phase-aligned at the seats, right?

It's not the nulls and peaks I would try to minimize, it's an attempt to optimize the precision of the bass (to complement the Rythmiks :-) )
Corner loading should eliminate interference on the direct wave from the neighboring walls. It does not eliminate room modes, though. Placing subs opposite each other helps with room modes. If you place 2 subs on the front corners, it eliminates all but one horizontal room mode, but does nothing to help room modes on the front-back axis, which can be a big problem.

2 subs in opposite corners eliminates a lot of room modes (all but one) on both axes. But, because the subs aren't a mirror image on both axes, you don't get very consistent response between seats. Still, I have found that this is one of the best overall approaches with 2 subs.

2 subs in center wall positions along the long axes gives you excellent natural response without EQ and consistent seat-to-seat response, because the subs are mirrored on both axes. The downside is that this is much less efficient, due to no corner loading. If you have lots of sub output for your room volume, this is probably the best option.

I haven't had good luck with center wall placement on all 4 walls in a rectangular room.

If you have 4 subs, there are 2 optimal layouts, IMO:

4 corners is great for the benefits of corner loading, eliminating most room modes, and high output.

1/4 3/4 positions on the front & back wall eliminates an additional horizontal room mode, but leaves a single room mode front to back. You sacrifice output, but eliminating that extra room mode helps the natural EQ.

Both of these are mirror on both axes, so you get excellent seat to seat response.

Balancing output and eliminating room modes, the 4 corner placement + EQ was the best for my room.

From a technical perspective another interesting layout is the double bass array. This uses 8 subs. 4 in 1/4 3/4 positions horizontally and vertically (suspended) on the front wall. This eliminates all horizontal and vertical room modes. Then, there are 4 more subs suspended on the back wall, except they are delayed and out of phase, to act like active room treatment. This eliminates the front back room modes. So, ALL room modes are eliminated, for a perfect natural response and time alignment for all seats. You'd have to DIY this, though. I wonder if anyone has done that with Rythmik kits?

It's also worth noting that for the 4 sub placements mentioned, if you sit in the middle, good room EQ can cancel out the bass energy, except vertically.
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:56 AM
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It's a hard room, I can't seem to find a flatish response so far I have a front sub in right and back right corners
Have you tried opposite corners?
Are you time aligning both of them to the listening position?
(An XT32 receiver will do this for you.)
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Old 03-03-2015, 09:59 AM
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The corner loading excited room modes can be dealt with using EQ (and bass traps), while loss of precision cannot be regained by the use of EQ.
That, at least, is the argument used by Steinway-Lyngdorf in their appraised high-end HT systems.
That's what I have found. If you had enough power power, naturally flat EQ is more important than output, but I have finite power and a big room.
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Old 03-03-2015, 11:41 AM
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Have you tried opposite corners?
Are you time aligning both of them to the listening position?
(An XT32 receiver will do this for you.)
they are currently in opposite corners Left Rear and Right Front. This room is 17x13.5 but it has a 6 foot open door way. it seems like I am picking up the partial wall next to the front right sub and the 20hz room mode from the dinning room wall. when I model this in the rew simulator(with 17x29 room) I get pretty similar data to my measurements.
I do have a Yamaha receiver with sub eq the graph may have bypassed that not totally sure.

I'll try to measure the two subs separately with out the speakers.
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Old 03-03-2015, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
they are currently in opposite corners Left Rear and Right Front. This room is 17x13.5 but it has a 6 foot open door way. it seems like I am picking up the partial wall next to the front right sub and the 20hz room mode from the dinning room wall. when I model this in the rew simulator(with 17x29 room) I get pretty similar data to my measurements.
I do have a Yamaha receiver with sub eq the graph may have bypassed that not totally sure.

I'll try to measure the two subs separately with out the speakers.
You might try each pair of opposite corners.
Also, make sure you have them time aligned at the listening position.
If you have one sub out on your receiver, you would need to do that manually (i.e. using REW), using either the sub amp delay or an external box, like a miniDSP.
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