Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 598 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17911 of 17936 Old 03-01-2015, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GrandPixel View Post
Thanks madhuski for sharing your experience! Post the rythmik graphs if you get a chance!

thanks. The SMS tracing of the FV15-hp in my room was posted in the middle somewhere:

Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread
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post #17912 of 17936 Old 03-01-2015, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
The difference in power is 0.38 dB. You'll never hear it. The 550's extra capacitance means it may provide a bit more power during longer transients. Again a potential plus but running the numbers I would not think it significant in the real world. Saving $100 is significant to me especially since there is essentially no downside and a potential upside. I would buy the 550.
I agree, it's probably my best bet.

My only concerns are resale value if I ever sell. Does the lesser amp deter others. And warranty support...if it failed, could it be replaced with a 600, assuming the 550s are no longer available
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post #17913 of 17936 Old 03-01-2015, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
here are the SMS pics of the rythmik. no surprise that ~ 80db looks similar to the SubM. Plus a pic of the new dog, who should outweigh the rythmik by a good 100lbs in a year or two

edit: 1st pic is with the PEQ disabled. 2nd pic is with PEQ on with a boost @ 50 Hz
funny how the Rythmik needs almost no correction
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post #17914 of 17936 Old 03-01-2015, 09:10 PM
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4x E15HP & 2x FM8

Hello fellow Rythmik enthusiasts! I've been away for several years moving around the country and for the first time since 2009, the HT has been restored but in a smaller space than before.

I started out with a single Epik Conquest then switched over to Hsu 4x ULS-15 with 4x MBM-12 for low frequency duties. I always wanted to try Rythmik servo subs, but didn't have the opportunity back then. Fast forward to 2015, I'm happy to be enthralled with Rythmik bliss!

I reached out to Brian around New Year's holiday and was so fortunate that he returned my missed call within minutes! It was a long shot, but just goes to show how committed Brian is to his customers. I'll save the whole story, and get to the fun part - the response graphs!



So, as noted, this graph shows how sub placement dramatically improved my sub response at the main listening position. Integrating the E15's and brand new FM8's (option'd with 50hz/24 HPF) were a pleasure to tweak and tune. Brian checked in with me from time to time to see how everything was going. He provided stellar support and technical assistance that felt very personal - you know the man loves what he does because it shows!

I was able to obtain these initial results with REW and a UMIK-1. I have an older pre-pro, Integra DTC-9.8 with Audyssey pro installer's kit for room correction. Before running Audyssey, I did my best to time align and level all the subs. In addition, I also perform post-audyssey tweaks on the individual subs to fine tune the final response. Here's a graph that shows a bit of the process:



Having luxurious flexibility on the amps through PEQ, XO options, LPF options, extension options, rumble filter, the list goes on... All functions perform superbly and have made it very satisfying in finding the subs' potential in my room. I especially appreciate the stepped dials/knobs - they are very precise, which instills confidence when making adjustments. The consistency is remarkable.

How does it sound? Even before all the measurements, the first test with the Rythmik subs was all I needed to hear. The sound quality is immediately apparent. As others have reported before me, Rythmik subs start and stop on a dime. The control is like no other and the effect it has on presentation and reproduction of sound is in a class of its own. I listen to music as well as having plenty of reference scenes to demo system performance. The Rythmiks are happy to play everything I have and do so with ease. The output is tremendous. Brian wasn't kidding when he said the FM8's are capable of very high SPL when set to high pass mode. Coming from 4x MBM-12's as my mid-bass mental reference, I even mentioned to Brian that I had dreams of having 6x FM8's. He nonchalantly suggested we should just start out with only two FM8's. I think he was right. However, I could see myself getting another pair because they are one of the coolest subs ever. They dig deep too on their own. Don't underestimate these, they are really special. I measured the other extension modes and they like the rest of the Rythmik line, are very flat. What distinguishes the F8/M8 - is their performance all the way out to 300hz. It's crazy how extended they are - makes me want to build some stands to see if it helps get rid of the floor bounce that shows up in the measurements.

I think I'll wrap it up there for now. It's nice to be back on AVS and see that everyone is still having fun. If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer if I can!
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Last edited by Mia & Lana's dad; 03-01-2015 at 09:26 PM.
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post #17915 of 17936 Old 03-01-2015, 10:31 PM
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Stop! You're making it hard to wait for my Rythmik!
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post #17916 of 17936 Old Yesterday, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mia & Lana's dad View Post
Hello fellow Rythmik enthusiasts! I've been away for several years moving around the country and for the first time since 2009, the HT has been restored but in a smaller space than before.

I started out with a single Epik Conquest then switched over to Hsu 4x ULS-15 with 4x MBM-12 for low frequency duties. I always wanted to try Rythmik servo subs, but didn't have the opportunity back then. Fast forward to 2015, I'm happy to be enthralled with Rythmik bliss!

I reached out to Brian around New Year's holiday and was so fortunate that he returned my missed call within minutes! It was a long shot, but just goes to show how committed Brian is to his customers. I'll save the whole story, and get to the fun part - the response graphs!



So, as noted, this graph shows how sub placement dramatically improved my sub response at the main listening position. Integrating the E15's and brand new FM8's (option'd with 50hz/24 HPF) were a pleasure to tweak and tune. Brian checked in with me from time to time to see how everything was going. He provided stellar support and technical assistance that felt very personal - you know the man loves what he does because it shows!

I was able to obtain these initial results with REW and a UMIK-1. I have an older pre-pro, Integra DTC-9.8 with Audyssey pro installer's kit for room correction. Before running Audyssey, I did my best to time align and level all the subs. In addition, I also perform post-audyssey tweaks on the individual subs to fine tune the final response. Here's a graph that shows a bit of the process:



Having luxurious flexibility on the amps through PEQ, XO options, LPF options, extension options, rumble filter, the list goes on... All functions perform superbly and have made it very satisfying in finding the subs' potential in my room. I especially appreciate the stepped dials/knobs - they are very precise, which instills confidence when making adjustments. The consistency is remarkable.

How does it sound? Even before all the measurements, the first test with the Rythmik subs was all I needed to hear. The sound quality is immediately apparent. As others have reported before me, Rythmik subs start and stop on a dime. The control is like no other and the effect it has on presentation and reproduction of sound is in a class of its own. I listen to music as well as having plenty of reference scenes to demo system performance. The Rythmiks are happy to play everything I have and do so with ease. The output is tremendous. Brian wasn't kidding when he said the FM8's are capable of very high SPL when set to high pass mode. Coming from 4x MBM-12's as my mid-bass mental reference, I even mentioned to Brian that I had dreams of having 6x FM8's. He nonchalantly suggested we should just start out with only two FM8's. I think he was right. However, I could see myself getting another pair because they are one of the coolest subs ever. They dig deep too on their own. Don't underestimate these, they are really special. I measured the other extension modes and they like the rest of the Rythmik line, are very flat. What distinguishes the F8/M8 - is their performance all the way out to 300hz. It's crazy how extended they are - makes me want to build some stands to see if it helps get rid of the floor bounce that shows up in the measurements.

I think I'll wrap it up there for now. It's nice to be back on AVS and see that everyone is still having fun. If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer if I can!
It seems the two E15HP in the near corner might not be needed in your particular room? The far corner (front or back wall?) pair have quite a flat curve, and it seems the near pair only contributes to a flatter common curve between 15 and 20 hz?

Anyway, I am VERY intrigued by your setup. I believe its what I am looking for, see my earlier post here.

1) If the room is not too wide, would it be possible to place the two FM8 on TOP of two front corner loaded E15HPs (i.e. stacked with an E15HP), rather than inside the mains? That would position the FM8 about 1.5-2 feet to the outside of my mains.

2) I would want to cross at 200 hz to the mains (see my earlier post for why). Would that be a problem for the center speaker - should I cross the center speaker at 80 hz in the receiver, if the FM8s are located in the front corners (as stereo mid-bass subs), in order not to have the mid-bass of the movie dialogue disconnected/disintegrated from the mids and highs, if not listening from the centered MLP?
My (current) center speaker (and mains: 3 X Audiovector M3 signature) is capable of playing down to 27 Hz (- 6 db), but I might update to M&K S150 mkII or S300 in the future, which only play down to 70-80 Hz.

3) nirvy111 mentioned in the post I link to above that "I was running the F8 and Kef ls50's s bookshelf speakers crossed at 120hz for a while and then at 80hz and I felt that 80hz sounded better. I think the Kef ls50's do a better job in the upper bass region than the F8 does."
Brian, or "Mia and Lana's dad", what are your comments on the FM8's abilities above 80 hz?

Kind regards,
Jacob

Last edited by Jacob B; Yesterday at 07:21 AM. Reason: clarification
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post #17917 of 17936 Old Yesterday, 07:18 AM
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It seems the two E15HP in the near corner might not be needed in your particular room? The far corner (front or back wall?) pair have quite a flat curve, and it seems the near pair only contributes to a flatter common curve between 15 and 20 hz?

Anyway, I am VERY intrigued by your setup. I believe its what I am looking for, see my earlier post here.

1) If the room is not too wide, would it be possible to place the two FM8 on TOP of two front corner loaded E15HPs (i.e. stacked with an E15HP), rather than inside the mains? That would position the FM8 about 1.5-2 feet to the outside of my mains.

2) I would want to cross at 200 hz to the mains (see my earlier post for why). Would that be a problem for the center speaker - should I cross the center speaker at 80 hz in the receiver, if the FM8s are located in the front corners (as stereo mid-bass subs), in order not to have the mid-bass of the movie dialogue disconnected/disintegrated from the mids and highs, if not listening from the centered MLP?
My center speaker (and mains) is capable of playing down to 27 Hz (- 6 db).

3) nirvy111 mentioned in the post I link to above that "I was running the F8 and Kef ls50's s bookshelf speakers crossed at 120hz for a while and then at 80hz and I felt that 80hz sounded better. I think the Kef ls50's do a better job in the upper bass region than the F8 does."
Brian, or "Mia and Lana's dad", what are your comments on the FM8's abilities above 80 hz?

Kind regards,
Jacob
my room is L-shaped, but the section where the system is primarily limited to measures 11' x 11' with 8' ceiling. The actual width of the front wall is 22' and the setup is situated to right half. The far corner E15 stack used to play up front with the mains, but I wanted the ULF and was able to exchange places with a bookshelf that previously occupied the far corner. The near corner E15 stack appears not to contribute much, but it is next to the couch and helped smooth out the response. I didn't think it would after seeing how it measures on its own, but when I remove it, the tactile effects as well as the response down low degrades. I will probably continue to tweak, but for now it's quite palpable in practice despite its seemingly in-congruent measurement with the rest. As for the FM8, I run them with a 200hz XO. The speed and slam are to die for. There is no degradation of dialog or vocals with the integration of mains and center. During Audyssey, my mains were detected as large, and gave no choice higher than 80hz to choose. Post Audyssey, I manually set mains, center, and surrounds to 200hz. There is no localization present in my configuration to my ears. There is however massive slam if the material calls for it. Otherwise, it blends seamlessly and you wouldn't know they're there if you didn't see them.

-Ron
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Another usage model of FM8.

I have another customer with Magnepans CC5 (only plays down to 200hz) and wonder how he can use F8 as a double duty with a sub like F25. I don't recomemd to play F25 up to 200hz (otherwise we don't need F8/FM8 models and also because localization of sound above 80hz).


Now one difficulty is while in AVR we can set different crossover frequency for L/C/R, it is the L/R crossover setting that determines the subwoofer crossover point, not center channel. In this case, one really needs to make center channel full range and feed both center channel and SUB channel to FM8 and place it next to center CC5. Connect the subwoofer RCA output to the sub. On FM8, set the bass extension to 50hz/24. On F25 (or sub), set the LPF to 50hz/24. In this arrangement all the content of 200hz down to 50hz in the AVR SUB output will be played via FM8. I think this arrangement should work better than having F8 and F25 overlap between say 80hz down to 20hz and lower.

An alternative is to set the F8 play from 200hz all the way down to 20hz. In that case, we just need to careful not to over load the F8 in the 20hz to 80hz range as the subwoofer should provide the most output in that range.
I was thinking of this post when asking question 2) above. I realize there is only one FM8 in the example by Brian, and I am talking about using a pair, connected in stereo (in the front corners, on top of an E15HP pair).
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As for the FM8, I run them with a 200hz XO. The speed and slam are to die for. There is no degradation of dialog or vocals with the integration of mains and center. During Audyssey, my mains were detected as large, and gave no choice higher than 80hz to choose. Post Audyssey, I manually set mains, center, and surrounds to 200hz. There is no localization present in my configuration to my ears. There is however massive slam if the material calls for it. Otherwise, it blends seamlessly and you wouldn't know they're there if you didn't see them.

-Ron
What do you use for mains - how far do they go on the own (and still sound good), and did you try a crossover of 100, 120, an 150 hz - just for the heck of it :-D ?

Jacob
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This is very similar to what I experienced comparing opposite corners to front corners, except the difference was even more pronounced.

The yellow curve looks near ideal.
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Originally Posted by Mia & Lana's dad View Post
my room is L-shaped, but the section where the system is primarily limited to measures 11' x 11' with 8' ceiling. The actual width of the front wall is 22' and the setup is situated to right half. The far corner E15 stack used to play up front with the mains, but I wanted the ULF and was able to exchange places with a bookshelf that previously occupied the far corner. The near corner E15 stack appears not to contribute much, but it is next to the couch and helped smooth out the response. I didn't think it would after seeing how it measures on its own, but when I remove it, the tactile effects as well as the response down low degrades.
-Ron
OK, I misunderstood you - I thought you placed the four E15HP in each their corner (in a rectangular room). So you stacked two in the near corner and two in the far corner - both front wall?
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What do you use for mains - how far do they go on the own (and still sound good), and did you try a crossover of 100, 120, an 150 hz - just for the heck of it :-D ?

Jacob
my mains are Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 (originals, non-NRT) stacked horizontally in an array of 4 placed on custom sound anchor stands. They measure Large and extend very well on their own. I could run them full range and sound excellent. I relieve them of low and midbass duty, and run a higher XO with them to improve high SPL clarity and dynamics especially for movies. I did try lower XO's, they all sound excellent and could live with any of them. The slam factor is what always brings me back to 200hz (the highest option available on my pre-pro). I stress there is no loss of intelligibility, muddiness, or bloat. It's really awesome, but tricky to integrate. It takes a lot of tweaking and patience to achieve the sound you're after. That's what makes this so fun!
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OK, I misunderstood you - I thought you placed the four E15HP in each their corner (in a rectangular room). So you stacked two in the near corner and two in the far corner - both front wall?
2x E15 stacks in opposite corners, not sharing the front wall.

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OK, I misunderstood you - I thought you placed the four E15HP in each their corner (in a rectangular room). So you stacked two in the near corner and two in the far corner - both front wall?
If you have a rectangular room that supports 4 corner placement, that's hard to beat.
Stacking in opposite corners might give you a bit more output.
The neat thing about 4 corner placement, though, is that you get lots of output and more consistent response for a bigger area.
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This is very similar to what I experienced comparing opposite corners to front corners, except the difference was even more pronounced.

The yellow curve looks near ideal.
I also have a miniDSP 2x4 balanced yet to introduce into the chain. I've got plenty of other ideas to try before adding it in. I used to have room for a lot of Gik acoustics panels, but not anymore. I get significant room gain in the corners for each E15 stack that presents a very interesting challenge to overcome. Right now, there's a -12db cut with 11 clicks of bandwidth centered around 25-30hz on the far corner E15 stack. The near corner stack is also cutting just as much but with different parameters I can't recall off the top of my head. But what I do remember though, is that I'm running aggressive XO slope and LPF @ 20hz with the near stack, but still get massive response between 50-90hz I suspect just by it being in that corner.
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The slam factor is what always brings me back to 200hz (the highest option available on my pre-pro). I stress there is no loss of intelligibility, muddiness, or bloat. It's really awesome, but tricky to integrate. It takes a lot of tweaking and patience to achieve the sound you're after. That's what makes this so fun!
What kind of tweaking was required - besides trying different placements?
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What kind of tweaking was required - besides trying different placements?
There is literally no feature, knob, or switch on the Rythmik amps that have not been called for duty in shaping my room's response to my desire. There are seemingly infinite possibilities. Once you realize this, it may seem daunting. But fear not, it is gloriously satisfying as you begin to reap the benefits from your meticulous effort toward that "ideal" response. Trust your ears in the end and try not to let your brain convince you otherwise. I'm guilty of that. I feel the need to chase every peak and dip but there needs to come a point where perfect should not be the enemy of good. Some days I just get the urge to tweak and others, I allow myself to enjoy the current tune.
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Do you only use the eq in the subs or also receiver eq?
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with the fv15hp I am getting a nasty 20hz peak is there a way to deal with this on the amp, Or will I need a minidsp?(avr only goes down to 38hz for it's sub peq.)
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with the fv15hp I am getting a nasty 20hz peak is there a way to deal with this on the amp, Or will I need a minidsp?(avr only goes down to 38hz for it's sub peq.)
You can use the PEQ on the amp to tame that peak.


Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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Do you only use the eq in the subs or also receiver eq?
I use both. The pre-pro EQ is largely automatic room correction by means of calibrating with Audyssey. Having independent sub control is very flexible. It's there if you want to leverage it, but it isn't always necessary to enjoy good sound starting with basic recommended settings.
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Quote:
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with the fv15hp I am getting a nasty 20hz peak is there a way to deal with this on the amp, Or will I need a minidsp?(avr only goes down to 38hz for it's sub peq.)
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My theater is on the second floor and while I enjoy the tactile feeling from the suspended floor, I recently discover the popping noises on a few different spots of the suspended floor when walking around this floor. I am sure my FV pair is responsible for that. No wonder, my wife keeps phoning me and says 'TOO LOUD'. This is with -15MV with just a 3-6db low shelf and not running subs hot. I don't dare to listen any louder when she is at home.
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My theater is on the second floor and while I enjoy the tactile feeling from the suspended floor, I recently discover the popping noises on a few different spots of the suspended floor when walking around this floor. I am sure my FV pair is responsible for that. No wonder, my wife keeps phoning me and says 'TOO LOUD'. This is with -15MV with just a 3-6db low shelf and not running subs hot. I don't dare to listen any louder when she is at home.
I've listened to a system on a suspended floor and there was some serious tactile feel. This was with dual LV12R's I can only imagine what dual FV15HP's would be like.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #17935 of 17936 Old Today, 01:26 AM
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Anyway, I am VERY intrigued by your setup. I believe its what I am looking for, see my earlier post here.

1) If the room is not too wide, would it be possible to place the two FM8 on TOP of two front corner loaded E15HPs (i.e. stacked with an E15HP), rather than inside the mains? That would position the FM8 about 1.5-2 feet to the outside of my mains.
Anybody tried this? The idea would be to maximize timing of the mid-bass, by having the reflections off the walls in front corners arrive at the MLP at the same time as the front wave.

Jacob
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post #17936 of 17936 Old Today, 03:42 AM
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Anybody tried this? The idea would be to maximize timing of the mid-bass, by having the reflections off the walls in front corners arrive at the MLP at the same time as the front wave.

Jacob
The problem with trying to get constructive interference on one frequency is that it will give you nulls on neighboring frequencies.

Ideally, you either get the speakers close enough to the wall/corner so that the wavelength is high enough to have more directivity control (or better in a baffle wall), or else you get it far enough away from the wall that the reflected energy is much lower than the direct energy. It's the middle ground that's problematic.
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f12g subwoofer , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub

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