Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 622 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #18631 of 18653 Old Yesterday, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
No offense but I don't like to see the 'night and day difference' comment unless a Rythmik is compared to a Polk Audio. It is misleading as the VTF15 is a good sub, the FV just takes a step or two further.
No offense taken at all Yes the vtf15h is a very good sub for sure, it put a smile on my face for almost 4 years. But the Rythmik does take it to a whole new level imo. It just amazed my how much more content I could hear with the Rythmik vs the hsu on movies I rewatched. The Rythmik just digs so much lower and cleaner by my ears.
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post #18632 of 18653 Old Yesterday, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
That is the only scene that can make my FV's chuff a little. Both subs were 6db hot and MV was at -15. In two port mode I get no chuffing at all. In the video it sounds like I'm getting chuffing throughout the whole thing, but it's really only at the end on the last sweep where the drivers are going bonkers.
Was this the Edge of Tomorrow opening sequence? If so, the last tone is making your drivers go nuts because it is below tune(10Hz), so the drivers are unloaded and easily driven to over excursion. In most scenes with this much LFE, there is a lot of other content present that would normally mask port noise. I'm a big fan of ported subs, and feel like they are the best solution for most people who can only have two moderate sized subs and want the best home theater and music combination. Really hard for sealed subs to match the output you can get with ported unless you are willing to build your own or spend quite a bit more.
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post #18633 of 18653 Old Yesterday, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
This is incorrect, just to make sure no one receives false information. When subs are mutually coupled(some people use the slang colocate...not really a real word), there will be a linear increase in output of exactly 6 dB across the entire frequency range of the single sub. Whatever horrible nulls and peaks were there before will be mirrored exactly with a 6 dB increase. This is a matter of physics...double the power and double the drivers(excursion) = 6 dB, but, it is not necessary for the subs to be mutually coupled for the 6 dB increase. This is a matter of physics: double power and drivers(i.e. dual subs) always = 6 dB.

The confusion comes into play because when subs are spread about, which is far superior to having them mutually coupled, you do not get a linear increase of 6 dB. The frequency response will change. In some areas of the FR, you might get a 15 dB gain where a null has been filled. In others you might get no increase at all, or even a decrease. However, averaged over the entire FR, the increase is 6 dB, it does not magically change based on placement.

To take things a step further, dual subs require proper placement in order to realize the FR improvement and a 6 dB increase in outptut. For example, it is possible with poor placement to end up with a large null at the MLP.

So, more accurately, dual subs spread out and properly placed will yield a 6 dB increase in output and an improved FR. Dual subs mutually coupled will also yield a 6 dB output increase, but leave you with the same likely horrible FR. But you do not have to sacrifice output for frequency response if the subs are placed properly.
Hmm...thought I had read that separate placement only yielded +3db (although I agree that the FR gains with careful placement are generally more important). Also, I thought that I had verified this with Audyssey's sub level calibration by turning off subs. The system is dismantled now, unfortunately, so I can't confirm or deny.
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post #18634 of 18653 Old Yesterday, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
On placement: There is always a null in the middle of the room so it is almost always advised to put the MLP at maybe 1/3 or 2/3 points instead of the middle.

On Sanders: I knew Roger (not well, then or now) long before he moved to Colorado and have always admired his designs (and general attitude; he is firm in his convictions). Now that he's only a couple of hours away naturally I haven't managed to catch up with he and Angie... He is on my very short list to visit if and when my old Maggies die. More on topic, his TL woofer design is pretty clean, but a couple of Rythmik's to augment the bass and smooth the response couldn't hurt...
I was thinking the same thing Don. Actually, as the x/o frequency between the Sanders panels and subs is 175Hz, an ambitious fella could do what I have done with my Eminent Tech LFT-8's and GR Research/Rythmik OB subs: Just don't use the stock subs, leaving them unconnected from the x/o, and substitute the OB Servo subs, which can be cross-over that high in frequency. Does anyone else here know (or care) what we're talking about ;-) ?!
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post #18635 of 18653 Old Yesterday, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I noticed at data-bass that one port open is about a 9db advantage with one port closed, and then they even up at 16 and 20, and then after 20 two ports wins the race.

The other thing I noticed is two port open has a good bit lower THD from 14 to 24hz (at 110db), so that is why with my high playback levels I figured two ports open was the best solution. It still extends much deeper than I can get out of my Hsu.

I am also dealing with 5400cuft too.


http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=51&mset=63


How about the limiter? Ive always left my subs in "On" no auto, but I see you need Auto for the limiter.
Turning off the limiter risks blowing the sub, so generally not a good idea.
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post #18636 of 18653 Old Yesterday, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Hmm...thought I had read that separate placement only yielded +3db (although I agree that the FR gains with careful placement are generally more important). Also, I thought that I had verified this with Audyssey's sub level calibration by turning off subs. The system is dismantled now, unfortunately, so I can't confirm or deny.
,

This would fall into the category of poor placement. If the subs are placed in such a way that you are getting a lot of cancellation at the MLP, you won't see the whole 6 dB that you should. Think of it like speakers......you can't say they image poorly if one is in front of you and the other is in the closet. While it is true that they won't image well in this scenario, it is not due to poor imaging but rather due to poor placement.

Setting up dual subs properly, however, is not as straight forward as setting up speakers properly.
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post #18637 of 18653 Old Yesterday, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
,

This would fall into the category of poor placement. If the subs are placed in such a way that you are getting a lot of cancellation at the MLP, you won't see the whole 6 dB that you should. Think of it like speakers......you can't say they image poorly if one is in front of you and the other is in the closet. While it is true that they won't image well in this scenario, it is not due to poor imaging but rather due to poor placement.
Placement is in the corners of a sealed rectangular room. This measurement was a while ago, though, so I may have remembered wrong.
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post #18638 of 18653 Old Yesterday, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I'm a big fan of ported subs, and feel like they are the best solution for most people who can only have two moderate sized subs and want the best home theater and music combination. Really hard for sealed subs to match the output you can get with ported unless you are willing to build your own or spend quite a bit more.
If I got a ported sub, it would definitely be a Rythmik. The servo alleviates a lot of the concerns I have about ported subs. But some of us have space considerations. So how my new room is going to be laid out will determine whether I have room for 2 LV12R, or 2 L12 if space is tight and they have to fit in and around all the furniture. There's also the issue of ringing. I'm not sure how big this is, but the guys running dedicated theater rooms and posting graphs in the REW thread are often going with multiple really high powered sealed subs because they get better results. Again I'm not sure how big of a deal that is but that's what I've been seeing. But you're right, the best bang for the buck will come from ported designs.
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post #18639 of 18653 Old Today, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Wisdom teeth, ouch and it's teeth not tooth? Double ouch. Hope things will go well for you. Have you tried the subs gained match technique yet? Are/will you able to take some measurements? Hint hint @JT78681 ?
I have not. So far in my experience dual sub eq does a great job.

I will be taking some before and afters with REW going forward, also checking speaker modes vs one another.

Panasonic 65" VT50 / BDP-S6500
Marantz AV7702 / Outlaw Model 7500
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post #18640 of 18653 Old Today, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Turning off the limiter risks blowing the sub, so generally not a good idea.
Understood, Enrico explained the limiter function to me via email. Actually glad, as someone who likes to listen at high playback level, that they have these.

Panasonic 65" VT50 / BDP-S6500
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post #18641 of 18653 Old Today, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Wisdom teeth, ouch and it's teeth not tooth? Double ouch. Hope things will go well for you. Have you tried the subs gained match technique yet? Are/will you able to take some measurements? Hint hint @JT78681?
I have the mic and I'm in the process of setting it up. Hopefully I will have some measurements up in a matter of days.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #18642 of 18653 Old Today, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Was this the Edge of Tomorrow opening sequence? If so, the last tone is making your drivers go nuts because it is below tune(10Hz), so the drivers are unloaded and easily driven to over excursion. In most scenes with this much LFE, there is a lot of other content present that would normally mask port noise. I'm a big fan of ported subs, and feel like they are the best solution for most people who can only have two moderate sized subs and want the best home theater and music combination. Really hard for sealed subs to match the output you can get with ported unless you are willing to build your own or spend quite a bit more.
Yeah it was Edge of Tomorrow.

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Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #18643 of 18653 Unread Today, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by turbojohngt View Post
No offense taken at all Yes the vtf15h is a very good sub for sure, it put a smile on my face for almost 4 years. But the Rythmik does take it to a whole new level imo. It just amazed my how much more content I could hear with the Rythmik vs the hsu on movies I rewatched. The Rythmik just digs so much lower and cleaner by my ears.
Agree though I came from the vtf2.3.
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post #18644 of 18653 Unread Today, 06:10 AM
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From what I see, especially in one port mode, the 12hz to 25hz is a good bit more output with less THD. That is what I am most excited about. The VTF15 seems to do a little better THD wise in the higher hz in 2 ports and 1 port mode, but the 15HP isn't "bad".




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post #18645 of 18653 Unread Today, 06:12 AM
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In two port mode, which I am leaning toward starting with, you have the same results:





I am using two ports on the VTF15 right now for headroom, and the FV15HP in 2 ports offers a good bit more power from 12-25hz.

Panasonic 65" VT50 / BDP-S6500
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Gadget,

Take those distortion numbers above with a grain of salt. I promise you the Servo Technology does a great job of masking some of the deficiencies you are seeing in those charts. You will find out soon enough.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
In two port mode, which I am leaning toward starting with, you have the same results:
I got a chance to try a couple FV15HPs a while back, and I strongly preferred 1-port/14hz/hi mode, although it depends on your tastes and needs. The flexibility to try the different settings is really nice. More choices make setup more complicated, but it's much better than replacing a sub to get what you want.
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post #18648 of 18653 Unread Today, 06:26 AM
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Oh I agree, all those numbers are good from what I have read.

Panasonic 65" VT50 / BDP-S6500
Marantz AV7702 / Outlaw Model 7500
Klipsch RF7II (2) and RC64II / Hsu VTF-15H (2)
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Gadget,

Take those distortion numbers above with a grain of salt. I promise you the Servo Technology does a great job of masking some of the deficiencies you are seeing in those charts. You will find out soon enough.
I would expect the servos to have superior distortion at typical levels, but there's not much servo can do at power and excursion limits. Also, servos don't solve port noise in ported models.

In those frequencies where 2-ports has lower distortion than 1-port mode, that could be power efficiency or port noise at play.
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I got a chance to try a couple FV15HPs a while back, and I strongly preferred 1-port/14hz/hi mode, although it depends on your tastes and needs. The flexibility to try the different settings is really nice. More choices make setup more complicated, but it's much better than replacing a sub to get what you want.
Im torn here, and I have to get out of thinking like I have for the last 4 years with an Hsu, where for headroom you run 2 ports open.

Reading the data bass stuff, Ricci still says the FV15HP has plenty of headroom in one port open, he just heard the chuffing and there was some compression.

One the flip side the users keep saying use one port and High and get that hard hitting, low and tight bass!

Panasonic 65" VT50 / BDP-S6500
Marantz AV7702 / Outlaw Model 7500
Klipsch RF7II (2) and RC64II / Hsu VTF-15H (2)
Panamax MR5100
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post #18651 of 18653 Unread Today, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Im torn here, and I have to get out of thinking like I have for the last 4 years with an Hsu, where for headroom you run 2 ports open.

Reading the data bass stuff, Ricci still says the FV15HP has plenty of headroom in one port open, he just heard the chuffing and there was some compression.

One the flip side the users keep saying use one port and High and get that hard hitting, low and tight bass!
You just have to try both.
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post #18652 of 18653 Unread Today, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Im torn here, and I have to get out of thinking like I have for the last 4 years with an Hsu, where for headroom you run 2 ports open.

Reading the data bass stuff, Ricci still says the FV15HP has plenty of headroom in one port open, he just heard the chuffing and there was some compression.

One the flip side the users keep saying use one port and High and get that hard hitting, low and tight bass!
Also, keep in mind most people will never push their subs as hard as Josh does in those tests.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I would expect the servos to have superior distortion at typical levels, but there's not much servo can do at power and excursion limits. Also, servos don't solve port noise in ported models.

In those frequencies where 2-ports has lower distortion than 1-port mode, that could be power efficiency or port noise at play.
I agree that it cannot mask port noise.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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