Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 655 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19621 of 19639 Old Today, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
It was really interesting. With high damping, the bass wasn't what I'm used to hearing from subs. It wasn't even what I'm used to hearing from ported speakers. I couldn't tell what or where it was coming from, even though I know where my subs are. It just seemed like it was part of the movie.
A good sound is a result of many factors played together. Servo is a good idea. But if a company implements a servo sub with a fixed damping FR, customers won't know the sound difference that the damping setting can make. It not only serves as a practical purpose with a variable damping (which we did from our first servo amp), it also serves as a educational purpose. High damping has the least amount of ringing. When we add a subwoofer, the longest ringing of the impulse response moves from the front speakers to the subwoofer. For a 15 Hz extension, its ringing is naturally 4 times longer than the front speakers with 60hz extension with same Q value. So on one hand, we'd like to go with deeper extension, and on the other hand we need to keep the ringing to minimal so that we don't hear the long tail of the ringing from the sub. The life sound we hear every day does not have any ringing and it has no rumble filter. That is is really our comparison reference.

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It makes me wonder what the sound engineers intend the movie to sound like? With high damping are we getting what they actually meant for it to sound like? I have to assume that they know full well the vast majority of sub owners do NOT have servo control and would engineer their sound tracks accordingly.
We sold many subwoofers to mastering studios,which means they also struggle to find a "good" subwoofer that canreplay to the level of realistic "life sound" we know toowell. So when they find a good subwoofer, they will recommend toothers.

What the sound engineers in mastering studio cando is to adjust the EQ sliders; we have a couple of photos in our review webpages (from Sterling Sounds). So the question is can we adjust EQ to makelow damping sound like high damping? My answer is no, but others may sayyes. What we hear is more subtle than what a frequency response curve can show and explain.

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post #19622 of 19639 Old Today, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
6db hot is just about right for me with Dynamic EQ turned off. I found that with Dynamic EQ engaged the other speakers tend to over power the center channel. Specifically, the dialogue.
I don't have problem with dialogue with dyneq on. Have you measured center and subs? You probably have a dip at crossover point. With dyneq on, my surrounds are a bit louder than I like so I reduce them by 2dbs.
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post #19623 of 19639 Old Today, 08:23 AM
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I stopped using Dyn EQ a long time ago. I found with the speakers properly setup I did not need them blowing out the center dialog. Haven't missed it.


This is all 3 14hz modes in my home (XT32) off. So Tvuong makes a good point, just adjust to 75db like I normally would, then add a db, and Hi is close to low. That would be about a +6 or 7 db increase from what i see out of audyssey intial setup.

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post #19624 of 19639 Unread Today, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Gadgt, just bump your trims up a db or 2 with hi D and you are all set.
I found I needed the same, I'm really liking high but it needs a small bump in trims.

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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
6db hot is just about right for me with Dynamic EQ turned off. I found that with Dynamic EQ engaged the other speakers tend to over power the center channel. Specifically, the dialogue.
That's odd, and you've tried the reference level offset? I use DEQ and dialogue is clear as day, and I don't even have a center speaker. I used RLO to tame the bass a bit, and will use it to tame the surrounds when I get them, as it tends to make them to loud.

Because I listen far below reference, it really helps keep the sound "even". And if you listen near reference, DEQ is doing very little.

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post #19625 of 19639 Unread Today, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
What we hear is more subtle than what a frequency response curve can show and explain.
This is so true. Because damping affects ringing, you can't see its effects on a FR chart. Maybe you could see it in a measurement in the time domain. But you really just have to hear it yourself.

I watched Pirates: Dead Man's Chest last night. We listened at 75-80db in our living room and she thought it was too loud. I didn't, however the room has no treatments so at this point it is far too live.

Anyway, this movie has some great LFE, particularly with the Kraken scenes and whenever the Flying Dutchman shows up. High Damping gives the LFE a gritty impact that I feel is "smoothed" too much by low damping. Or how Brian would put it, when the ringing isn't controlled as much.

I'll keep testing more movies, but right now I'm following Brian's instructions (included in the box) of 14hz, high damping, rumble filter off if one isn't maxing the output of the subs, and so far so good. If you are maxing them out, you should turn the rumble filter on and try the other damping modes as well.
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post #19626 of 19639 Unread Today, 10:19 AM
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So on one hand, we'd like to go with deeper extension, and on the other hand we need to keep the ringing to minimal so that we don't hear the long tail of the ringing from the sub. The life sound we hear every day does not have any ringing and it has no rumble filter. That is is really our comparison reference.
That puts it in perspective, and like we have said a happy graph does not always mean happy ears.
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post #19627 of 19639 Unread Today, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I found I needed the same, I'm really liking high but it needs a small bump in trims.


That's odd, and you've tried the reference level offset? I use DEQ and dialogue is clear as day, and I don't even have a center speaker. I used RLO to tame the bass a bit, and will use it to tame the surrounds when I get them, as it tends to make them to loud.

Because I listen far below reference, it really helps keep the sound "even". And if you listen near reference, DEQ is doing very little.
I've always left the offset at 0.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #19628 of 19639 Unread Today, 10:54 AM
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Me too. I watch HDTV in a range from -10 to -20db and blu-ray from 0.0 to -5db, to be simple. I do not care for it during HDTV, at all.
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post #19629 of 19639 Unread Today, 11:37 AM
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In my system there is almost no change in FR with damping but you can see the change in the impulse (time domain) response. And in the sound. Not in the extension, which I frankly cannot tell, but in the clean attack and decay or percussive sounds. Ringing and related ills are what drove me to design my own subwoofer back in the late 70's/early 80's and why I went with Rythmik today (well, about seven years ago now, hard to believe it's been that long!) It is one of those things more noticeable by its absence, and quite honestly a lot of folk hear a highly-distorted ringing sound and love it because it is so much "louder" than a true low-distortion subwoofer with good impulse response. Eventually the boom has to go (I was going to say that eventually we grow up, but pretty sure my wife and kids will quickly point out in my case "growing old" and growing up" are not equivalent and I am only half-way there. )

IME/IMO - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #19630 of 19639 Unread Today, 11:44 AM
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I was car audio back well before home theater. I always preferred the kick you swiftly bass punch vs the grab you and shake you around for a second. I more referred to it as "muddy" or "boomy" when i was younger as ringing was unknown to me. I had found that I do not like excessive ringing, obviously, even before I knew what ringing was.
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post #19631 of 19639 Unread Today, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
This is all 3 14hz modes in my home (XT32) off. So Tvuong makes a good point, just adjust to 75db like I normally would, then add a db, and Hi is close to low. That would be about a +6 or 7 db increase from what i see out of audyssey intial setup.

Plus extra extension with hi along with cleaner sound = win win situation
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post #19632 of 19639 Unread Today, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Plus extra extension with hi along with cleaner sound = win win situation

They are all so close, even with only boosting the normal +5db I do in Low, I bet that would not be the difference I would notice (less output) with FR that close. The Hi damping will stand out to me. 0.3 vs 0.7 Q on the VTF15 was obvious. Effectively 1.1 Q to 0.5 on the FV15HP.

I am not sure how the FV15HP performs with headroom, but with the VTF15 the lower Q you had the less output by a few db you would have, but more headroom. And obviously "more sterile" bass.
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post #19633 of 19639 Unread Today, 12:58 PM
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^^ give hi a try with your listening level (-5 to ref, I believe) and see if the subs are struggling which determines if you are running out of headroom. Compression sweeps are the easiest way to know but there are only a couple real world movies that demand that type of headroom.
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post #19634 of 19639 Unread Today, 01:19 PM
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Talking

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Originally Posted by dc6284 View Post
Hey guys,

I'm already sick of my svs pb-2000. And getting ready to pull the trigger on Rythmik Fv15hp and wanted to know your thoughts on it vs the Svs pb-12 plus and pb-13...

Sense most of you own one. And know more then I. Would that be my best choice. 50/50 music/HT

Room: 18x12x8 sealed. "Like my bass"


Thanks everyone,

Dave
Went with the Rythmik FV15HP in piano finish.

Anyone have tips on hooking up setting audyssey xt32.


Thanks
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Avr: Denon 4520
Speakers: Klipsch,rf-82ii,rc-62ii,b-61ii,rs-62ii
Sub: Svs pb-2000
Oppo BDP 105-D
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post #19635 of 19639 Unread Today, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dc6284 View Post
Went with the Rythmik FV15HP in piano finish.

Anyone have tips on hooking up setting audyssey xt32.


Thanks
Normally I would say that the FV15HP is overkill in a 1700sq ft sealed room, but I know you're only considering ported models and say you "like your bass", so I hope it blows you away.
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post #19636 of 19639 Unread Today, 01:55 PM
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Anyone have tips on hooking up setting audyssey xt32?
There are some initial settings you'll want to set on your Rythmik before running Audyssey. They are included in the box but I'll post them here. Assuming you already have determined the best location - sub location is covered all over the forums and is easy to find instructions for. I'll assume you're using LFE-IN, as that is what I'm familiar with.

A. Set your sub gain to the 12:00 level
B. Set the extension to 14Hz
C. Set your damping to low
D. Turn the rumble filter off
E. Make sure the PEQ is off
F. Make sure the crossover is set to the highest frequency
G. Set the phase to 0

I am not sure how many ports to plug - I'll let others contribute regarding that. I'm sure it is also covered in the instructions.


With your AVR:

1. Plug in the setup mic
2. Set your subwoofers to measure to 2 (if you have 2)
3. Proceed to measure the first mic location
4. Audyssey will have you adjust the sub gain knob(s) until the screen displays 75db. Do this and continue.
5. Skip the other mic locations and calculate
6. Check the levels that it set your sub(s) to. You want to aim for around -6. If it's near the -12 maximum, turn your subs down a few clicks and try again, and make sure the screen measures the same volume for each (if 2)
7. Once you achieve near -6 as a level result, run the full set of measurements. Help with where to put the mic for all 8 measurements can be found in the Audyssey thread

After setup is complete, you can adjust damping to your liking and turn the rumble filter on if you're going to be near max output. You can also raise your sub level in the AVR to taste, and play with Dynamic EQ.

Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings)
Denon AVR-X4000

And a little R&R:
Reaction Audio CX-10 (2)
Rythmik Audio F12 (2)

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post #19637 of 19639 Unread Today, 02:26 PM
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If you your version of XT32 will tell you that your sub level is too high or too low, and then let you use the on screen level meter, just set the volume as low is it will go to prompt that alert. 12 oclock will most likely be way to high. Other option is to us 9, 10, 11 oclock etc... and then calculate after one measurement and see where it set your sub. I recommend setting sub volume on the sub where the ending level result is around -7 or -8. That way a good 5 db boost still leaves you a little negative if you like to boost any. It seems a 3 to 6db boost is quite common after XT32 is complete.
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post #19638 of 19639 Unread Today, 02:28 PM
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My instructions with my F12s said 12:00 so that's what I started with. However, it was too loud in my room, maxing out the trims at -12. I don't remember where they are set now but it's probably around 11:00.
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post #19639 of 19639 Unread Today, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
My instructions with my F12s said 12:00 so that's what I started with. However, it was too loud in my room, maxing out the trims at -12. I don't remember where they are set now but it's probably around 11:00.
Yeah, one of my 15's is about 10 and the other is like 11.

12 is a generic suggestion most use, but there are other ways to trick it if it has the level matching meter on screen. When I try new modes on my duals, I just turn them both all the way down, it then forces me to set each one around 73-74db.
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