Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 665 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19921 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Myth.

This is exactly the reason I never fight customers opinion. If he had a ported sub and is largely happy, just want to get better clarity, I would ecommend our ported subs, not sealed subs. Every customer is different in sound quality preference, room and equipment setup.

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post #19922 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
This is exactly the reason I never fight customers opinion. If he had a ported sub and is largely happy, just want to get better clarity, I would ecommend our ported subs, not sealed subs. Every customer is different in sound quality preference, room and equipment setup.
But if one is happy with their ported and not ever experienced a sealed sub how does that customer know if sealed is really a better solution or not?

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post #19923 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
But if one is happy with their ported and not ever experienced a sealed sub how does that customer know if sealed is really a better solution or not?

Before I discovered Rythmik, I was looking at the SVS line of subs. I called them and talked to one of the engineers, asking him about the inherent difference in sound between their ported and sealed models (particularly the SB13 Ultra). When I asked about the difference in "speed" between them (the term used not in the literal sense, but in the sense of lack of overhang/overshoot/settling time/etc.---in other words, not starting speed, but stopping speed. I thought everybody in Hi-Fi understood that ;-), his demeanor took on an air of smug condescension, and he said "A 'fast' woofer would be a tweeter". Where I come from that's called being rude and insulting. He then said that the only advantage of sealed is in the room gain it provides in very small rooms, that ported outperform sealed in every other way, and were preferable in all but the smallest of rooms, sealed being recommended only for rooms too small for a "real" (ported) sub. Now, I'm no spring chicken, and I've had a fair number of woofers in my life---acoustic suspension (both with and without passive radiator assistance), bass reflex (ported), horn-loaded (JBL D-130's in huge Voice Of The Theater cabinets), transmission line (KEF B139 woofers in long lines), planar, motion-feedback (Infinity). Okay, I said to myself, here's an engineer who not only says his sealed design is no better than his ported, he says, in fact, exactly the opposite---that his ported is better than his sealed. I believe I'll keep looking, thought I. He had just talked himself out of a sale. Luckily, as that lead me to Rythmik!
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post #19924 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 12:15 PM
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Well, you were talking to an engineer so someone from that perspective is highly likely to think of speed in the literal sense even after the inferred meaning is explained.

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post #19925 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 02:01 PM
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I keep haring about speed of a subwoofer. I can never seem to hear it myself. I think of many smaller sealed subs as lifeless and a different person in the room thinks it is really fast. I think that serious bass is a personal liking. I sometimes think we get caught in terms or catch phases like warmer sound. Really the words are just adjectives to describe a certain perspective and in double blind test many can not tell a sealed from a ported design. I would love to hear Rythmik or SVS. I have heared JTR Orbital shifters, PSA ported, JL sealed and ported, REL sealed, Si-24 Sealed, gjallarhorn foled horn, and Ultimax sealed. I thought they were all great.
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post #19926 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
Well, you were talking to an engineer so someone from that perspective is highly likely to think of speed in the literal sense even after the inferred meaning is explained.
Brian is an engineer (as am I).

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #19927 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 05:13 PM
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I never heard a sub described as "lifeless" based upon its size.

While many associated "speed" with "fast" or "wide bandwidth", IME/IMO it is really about control. You hear the speed of a good sub when the sound stops after a drum stick or piano hammer strikes and the sound dies away naturally, quickly, without filling the space between notes. To you and others that may sound "lifeless". To me it sounds realistic and "clean". (Of course, "clean" has come to mean "sterile", with negative connotation. I can't keep up with how audiophiles redefine English.) But, some prefer that extra sound, describing it as "richer" or "fuller"; others think it "boomy" and "bloated". The nice thing about Rythmik is you can adjust the damping to choose your favorite sound.

Good subs sound more alike than different. The huge differences often raved about are often pretty subtle, at least to me. But, there are differences, and I can appreciate (or at least understand) them.

YMMV - Don

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post #19928 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Thanks for clearing that up. That makes sense.

So, ported vs. sealed is one of multiple factors that affect impulse response.

My point stands, though, that they are not the same.

Incidentally, I prefer the rumble filter disabled, but leave the limiter enabled.
I didn't claim that ported and sealed are the same. I dispute the myth that sealed subs are inherently superior in sound quality to ported subs, or tighter, or crisper, or more articulate etc etc. I agree that subs will sound different in room when comparing ported, sealed, horn etc etc. But I also believe that our ears are not as precise as some of us wish to believe, or that we are immune to our biases when listening to our preferred alignment. I have seen far too many occasions in which those who adamantly prefer a particular alignment are somehow unable to determine which one they are listening to when the curtain is drawn in a blind test. People cannot reliably determine whether they are listening to ported, sealed, or horn in blind listening tests, especially when they are eq'd as closely as possible. I think there are subtle differences that can affect the sound of a sub, but well designed subs eq'd the same in room would be impossible to tell apart in honest blind testing imo.

As far as claiming that things like impulse response is superior across the board for sealed subs, or even as a general rule, I have not found this to be true either. Testing on Data-Bass.com reveals that there are ported subs that measure better on impulse response than some of the most highly vaunted sealed subs. Subjective sound quality impressions are typically made in regards to music which is primarily above 40 Hz, so I don't see ringing around 18 Hz port tunes and lower as having any effect on sound quality with music.

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post #19929 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 08:28 PM
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^^ apparently the difference is enough for rcohen to justify upgrading to the f25 over fv15. I really want to listen to the f25. Scratch that, I really want to listen to the FV25hp
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post #19930 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Subjective sound quality impressions are typically made in regards to music which is primarily above 40 Hz, so I don't see ringing around 18 Hz port tunes and lower as having any effect on sound quality with music.

If that is the case, there shouldn't be any reason for us to provide a 14hz 20hz and 28hz extension switch. We provide that switch for over 10 years now and over 90% of customers when playing music prefer 14hz over 20hz or even 28hz, and high damping over mid damping or low damping. What is missing between what you are saying (or others saying the same thing) and what we are doing is there is a misunderstanding on what is the bandwidth requirement for playing a dynamic 40hz sine signal. It is more than just 40hz. It is so much so that a term called "Blackman" windowed burst sine tone can be found if you do an internet search and many Ph.D students were graduated becasue of that. You can read the background about it. In fact, the burst tone Data-Bass uses IS a Blackman windowed burst tone. If all music signal are changing like Blackman burst tone does, then we only have one texture of bass signal. That will be boring. Blackman window is a man made signal. In short, only static signal 40hz requires 40hz as the bandwidth to play it. Any dyanmic 40hz signal that is changing in and out requires bandwidth wider than 40hz itself.
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post #19931 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 08:58 PM
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^^^


BTW, we can modulate a 40hz signal with 30hz rate and that creates the beat effect and a 10hz content. In fact, that has been the fundamentals of many synthesizers to create different texture of bass.
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post #19932 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 09:01 PM
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^^ apparently the difference is enough for rcohen to justify upgrading to the f25 over fv15. I really want to listen to the f25. Scratch that, I really want to listen to the FV25hp

I don't want to say it outright, but when a customer tells me that he cannot tell the difference the damping switch makes or the bass extension makes, I begin to worry that the customer's setup may not be optimal. So much so maybe all subwoofers will sound the same to him
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post #19933 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
But if one is happy with their ported and not ever experienced a sealed sub how does that customer know if sealed is really a better solution or not?
But where does that stop? Is the sealed sub from brand A better than another from brand B? In that case, you need to befriend a subwoofer dealer so that you can borrow all subs to compare and draw your conclusion.

A local customer didn't befriend a subwoofer dealer, but he tries all the sealed subs he can have access to (borrowed from friends, local subwoofer sellers (like us or other individual sellers), and members from forum, AND those offer free return) and spend 8 weeks before he made decision. He bought a pair of F12G for his magpans in the end. We loaned him b-stock F12/F12G before he bought brand new pair.

Sound or audio quality is something that draws my attention ever since I was a teen. My first pair of speakers were 3-way Jensens whch later I learnt sounded like c*** when I bought my ProAc Tablettes. That was when I begin to lose faith in big brands.

A friend of mine when I was in graduate school was fanatic about audio. He was constantly buying and selling audio gears and compared the sound. In his mind, the only things golden and should not be replaced were his Spendor speakes. Other than that, he went through at least 6 different preamps, amplifiers, a couple of turntable,...etc. Every time he got new equipment, he would invite me over and he and I learnt a lot from that. Majority of the audio gears he bought and sold were used.

In short, there are quite a few ways to learn what you really want. But none of that can be done in 45 days trial. If you really want to try our subs and are concerned about shipping cost, send us email and we can discuss. (BTW, this applies to dc6284 as well).
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post #19934 of 19936 Old Yesterday, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
"A 'fast' woofer would be a tweeter".

Same league as those say the best bass is no bass
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post #19935 of 19936 Old Today, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Same league as those say the best bass is no bass

That attitude towards the low frequencies in music reproduction has been very prevalent in England, both in product development and magazine reviews, for decades. The size and structure of the listening rooms over there is often cited as a main reason for the U.K. anti-bass prejudice; their rooms tend to be small and of lath and plaster construction, with little room bass loss (unlike stud and sheetrock U.S. structures, with a good amount of loss through the walls). I love British designed and built Hi-Fi, having had pieces of it in my music system for many years---my turntable, pickup arm, phono cartridge, pre-amp, and one of my speaker systems being British. And they have a point about not enough bass being preferable to bad bass, but some designers seem to intentionally sacrifice low-frequency bandwidth and output to maximize bass quality (it's difficult and expensive to make good, loud bass!). Speakers so designed and built can sound kind of like a miniature Faberge egg, ya know? Delicate, transparent, and detailed, but missing some musical meat on the bones, to use a crude analogy. But that's okay---owners of such speakers can now just add a good sub or two to make a full-range loudspeaker!
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That attitude towards the low frequencies in music reproduction has been very prevalent in England, both in product development and magazine reviews, for decades.
That's no longer true. Most of the people I'm aware of, embrace the frequency range a quality subwoofer is capable of.

Quote:
The size and structure of the listening rooms over there is often cited as a main reason for the U.K. anti-bass prejudice; their rooms tend to be small and of lath and plaster construction, with little room bass loss (unlike stud and sheetrock U.S. structures, with a good amount of loss through the walls). I love British designed and built Hi-Fi, having had pieces of it in my music system for many years---my turntable, pickup arm, phono cartridge, pre-amp, and one of my speaker systems being British. And they have a point about not enough bass being preferable to bad bass, but some designers seem to intentionally sacrifice low-frequency bandwidth and output to maximize bass quality (it's difficult and expensive to make good, loud bass!). Speakers so designed and built can sound kind of like a miniature Faberge egg, ya know? Delicate, transparent, and detailed, but missing some musical meat on the bones, to use a crude analogy. But that's okay---owners of such speakers can now just add a good sub or two to make a full-range loudspeaker!
I've had KEF bookshelf speakers for years, but have been slightly dissatisfied with them. It took an F12SE to demonstrate their true quality. Stunning is the word I now use for them.

BTW, my kit is listed here:
http://www.sa-cd.net/showuser/6988
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