Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 666 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19951 of 19973 Old Yesterday, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
The problem with running smaller speakers full-range is that distort heavily with large'ish LF signals. I have measured 50% and more distortion from some very fine speakers when driven to 80 dB SPL at the listening position with a tone at their -3 dB point. Once you add a sub and offload that LF content, it cleans up the rest of the main speaker's frequency range.

Subs have the same problem, thought usually at a higher SPL, but that is one reason my first sub (a DIY job) decades ago was a servo design. As has every one since (which, actually, is only Rythmik since I went from my old DIY to a pair of F12's).

BTW, I have a pair of nice KEF's upstairs, but they are pretty old (not as old as my Maggies).

FWIWFM - Don
Yeah, I think the main advantage of full range speakers is that they are easy to set up. Subs can be pretty tricky to set up well, but once you do, I prefer them over running speakers full range (unless it's a bad sub).

Good, properly set up subs should create the illusion of great full range sound coming out of your mains.
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post #19952 of 19973 Old Yesterday, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Yeah, I think the main advantage of full range speakers is that they are easy to set up. Subs can be pretty tricky to set up well, but once you do, I prefer them over running speakers full range (unless it's a bad sub).

Good, properly set up subs should create the illusion of great full range sound coming out of your mains.

I on the other hand have always advocated front speakers with sub. Here is my reason. True full range speakers are bulky. The size means it is less likely to avoid the diffraction on the enclosure, an effect that can cause wavy frequency response in the midrange and above. In addition, enclosure internal will have longer standing wave. In short, it is less like a point source. That is how we started with bookshelf speakers with narrow profile and provide execellent imaging capability. Second, it is important that the subwoofer level needs to be adjustable. A subwoofer arrangement makes that an easier task.
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post #19953 of 19973 Old Yesterday, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
I on the other hand have always advocated front speakers with sub. Here is my reason. True full range speakers are bulky. The size means it is less likely to avoid the diffraction on the enclosure, an effect that can cause wavy frequency response in the midrange and above. In addition, enclosure internal will have longer standing wave. In short, it is less like a point source. That is how we started with bookshelf speakers with narrow profile and provide execellent imaging capability. Second, it is important that the subwoofer level needs to be adjustable. A subwoofer arrangement makes that an easier task.
That's part of my point. A proper sub setup is superior for many reasons. The main plus of a full range setup is that the bass integration has been done for you at the factory.
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post #19954 of 19973 Old Yesterday, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Opposite walls or corners is ideal, because it will cancel out room modes. You just need to make sure to time align them at the listening position. Many receivers with 2 sub outs will do that automatically for you.

If WAF is an issue, go with the glossy finish. It looks fantastic. Well worth the premium, IMO.
Yup, cancel room modes and frequencies as well, hence my comment about the phase.

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post #19955 of 19973 Old Yesterday, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by goldark View Post
Jim, you mentioned that you 'had' 1 E15HP - may I ask you what subwoofer(s) you're currently using now?
Whatever I happen to be reviewing at the moment. It's a non-stop stream of products it seems.
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post #19956 of 19973 Old Yesterday, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
The problem with running smaller speakers full-range is that distort heavily with large'ish LF signals. I have measured 50% and more distortion from some very fine speakers when driven to 80 dB SPL at the listening position with a tone at their -3 dB point. Once you add a sub and offload that LF content, it cleans up the rest of the main speaker's frequency range.

...

BTW, I have a pair of nice KEF's upstairs, but they are pretty old (not as old as my Maggies).

FWIWFM - Don
WRT first paragraph, you're describing intermodulation distortion (IMD). That type of distortion is quite rubbish and is very obvious when encountered. The F12SE sorted that straight away.

What model KEF do you have?

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+1

Use the right tool for the job.
Indeed.

In my case, it was actually a combination of items. When the sub arrived, I was driving the system with a Denon AVR-3310. Not sure what changes Denon implemented in theit upper 2012 AVR models, but the AVR-3310 was replaced in late 2012 with my current bit of kit. That new AVR improved the system sound quality, significantly.

2012 was the year of significant design changes across the whole of the Denon AVR models.
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post #19957 of 19973 Old Yesterday, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Iain- View Post
WRT first paragraph, you're describing intermodulation distortion (IMD). That type of distortion is quite rubbish and is very obvious when encountered. The F12SE sorted that straight away.

What model KEF do you have?
No, I was speaking of harmonic distortion, though IMD occurs as well, and is as you say much more obvious since it creates non-harmonic tones that do not fit with the music. Often I have found when people describe a sub as "louder" or "fuller" it is because the second and higher harmonics are much higher. Offloading the mains helps both THD and IMD (note IMD is 9.54 dB higher than HD for a given power input and I have always felt it way more important than HD).

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post #19958 of 19973 Old Yesterday, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
People cannot reliably determine whether they are listening to ported, sealed, or horn in blind listening tests, especially when they are eq'd as closely as possible. I think there are subtle differences that can affect the sound of a sub, but well designed subs eq'd the same in room would be impossible to tell apart in honest blind testing imo.
The correct test is first unveil the subwoofers. Let the listeners "remember and learn" how each subwoofer sound. Then cover them with veil and do the blind tests that way. Let me emphasize, it is important to understand the difference between absolute vs relative. The relative is much easier for us to understand. For instance, comparing the worst sealed sub to the best vented sub does not bring essense to the discussion. Comparing the impulse response of a 14hz extension sealed sub to a 40hz extension ported sub does not bring essense to the discussion.

We should also know impulse response is how electrical engineers/mathematicians come up to calculate the output response based on the input signals. The process is called convolution. It slices the input signals into infinitely small slices (very much like how we do integral). For each of those slices, it produces an output response similar to impulse response times the slice height (which is strength at that moment), and then we add all those infinite numbers of impulse response together and that is how we get the output. We can imagine if the impulse response is wavy, there is bound to be a particular input signal that will cause the output to be wavy. We should not dispute that or call it a myth.

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post #19959 of 19973 Old Yesterday, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
The correct test is first unveil the subwoofers. Let the listeners "remember and learn" how each subwoofer sound. Then cover them with veil and do the blind tests that way. Let me emphasize, it is important to understand the difference between absolute vs relative. The relative is much easier for us to understand. For instance, comparing the worst sealed sub to the best vented sub does not bring essense to the discussion. Comparing the impulse response of a 14hz extension sealed sub to a 40hz extension ported sub does not bring essense to the discussion.

We should also know impulse response is how electrical engineers/mathematicians come up to calculate the output response based on the input signals. The process is called convolution. It slices the input signals into infinitely small slices (very much like how we do integral). For each of those slices, it produces an output response similar to impulse response times the slice height (which is strength at that moment), and then we add all those infinite numbers of impulse response together and that is how we get the output. We can imagine if the impulse response is wavy, there is bound to be a particular input signal that will cause the output to be wavy. We should not dispute that or call it a myth.
So all things being equal (quality of materials, quality of design, quality of build and roughly similar extension, eq'd properly and used in same setting etc...) would you say there is a noticeable difference in sound quality between a ported sub and a sealed sub?
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post #19960 of 19973 Old Yesterday, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
So all things being equal (quality of materials, quality of design, quality of build and roughly similar extension, eq'd properly and used in same setting etc...) would you say there is a noticeable difference in sound quality between a ported sub and a sealed sub?

The short answer is sealed sub will sound "leaner" compared to the "full-body" ported sub sound. But full-body can sometimes be interpreted as "boomy" for those favor sealed sub sound quality. The trade-off for ported sub is how to get the "full-body" sound without becoming "boomy". It is tricky, but we think that is the selling point of our subs.

BTW, this full body sound is sometimes is the reason we interpret the bass as slow or fast. If the sound projects an overly large object, we often associate that with slower movement. So our intuition is to call that kind of bass as slow bass. Now Dan Wiggins from Adire was the first person is use impulse response to demonstrate that the fastest bass is "tweeter". The reason is he was looking at the rising edge of the impulse response to compare if indeed the bass is faster from one sub vs another. It should have been the tail he needed to check. The rising edge of the impulse response is solely determined by the upper end extension. So he was looking at the wrong place. Second flaw of his test is that the impulse response distribute the energy same per Hz. What does that mean? The impulse signal is highly concentrated at high frequency. If we have a impulse response of a 20hz to 20khz signal, half of the energy is between 10khz and 20khz. The frequency band between 20hz to 100hz is only 80/20000 of the signal, or 0.4%. How do you get significance of your result with 0.4% content? The correct method should have been step response. Step response is the integral of impulse response. It makes the energy per octave more uniform. Unfortunately, his article sticks (cannot be retracted) and is mis-quoted over and over again.

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post #19961 of 19973 Old Yesterday, 12:47 PM
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I saw that the new L12 is using a paper driver.
I am wondering how the L12 compares to the
F12G?? I realize the enclosure is a bit bigger on
The F12G, but what other differences are there?

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post #19962 of 19973 Old Yesterday, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post
I saw that the new L12 is using a paper driver.
I am wondering how the L12 compares to the
F12G?? I realize the enclosure is a bit bigger on
The F12G, but what other differences are there?
I went back to find the recent discussion we had on this. Some really good information can be had starting here:

Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread

It goes on for about a week, maybe two.

In the end, I went for F12s because the L12 and LV12 weren't going to be available for about a month, and the paper F12G didn't seem worth it to me. No regrets.

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post #19963 of 19973 Old Today, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
The short answer is sealed sub will sound "leaner" compared to the "full-body" ported sub sound. But full-body can sometimes be interpreted as "boomy" for those favor sealed sub sound quality. The trade-off for ported sub is how to get the "full-body" sound without becoming "boomy". It is tricky, but we think that is the selling point of our subs.

BTW, this full body sound is sometimes is the reason we interpret the bass as slow or fast. If the sound projects an overly large object, we often associate that with slower movement. So our intuition is to call that kind of bass as slow bass. Now Dan Wiggins from Adire was the first person is use impulse response to demonstrate that the fastest bass is "tweeter". The reason is he was looking at the rising edge of the impulse response to compare if indeed the bass is faster from one sub vs another. It should have been the tail he needed to check. The rising edge of the impulse response is solely determined by the upper end extension. So he was looking at the wrong place. Second flaw of his test is that the impulse response distribute the energy same per Hz. What does that mean? The impulse signal is highly concentrated at high frequency. If we have a impulse response of a 20hz to 20khz signal, half of the energy is between 10khz and 20khz. The frequency band between 20hz to 100hz is only 80/20000 of the signal, or 0.4%. How do you get significance of your result with 0.4% content? The correct method should have been step response. Step response is the integral of impulse response. It makes the energy per octave more uniform. Unfortunately, his article sticks (cannot be retracted) and is mis-quoted over and over again.
Interesting that so much of the step response energy is in high frequencies. That explains why high output speakers can achieve a bass slam that typical speakers cannot (and one of the reasons why my JTRs are so fun). Of course, the sub impulse response also has an important role to play for slam, both with the speed of the attack, and for certain types of signals, the speed of the decay.
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post #19964 of 19973 Old Today, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post
I saw that the new L12 is using a paper driver.
I am wondering how the L12 compares to the
F12G?? I realize the enclosure is a bit bigger on
The F12G, but what other differences are there?

LV12R is one of our best sellers and it give us the confidence of the design formula. L12 is based on the driver in LV12R but with a larger motor. So the drivers are different between L12 and F12G. That saves a bit of cost. Another difference is the amplifier. The amplifier is similar to the one used in LV12R with simpified control and Hypex Ucd modules. That saves cost too. But sound quality wise, L12 is very good. It has that articulation associated with our subs.
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post #19965 of 19973 Old Today, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
So all things being equal (quality of materials, quality of design, quality of build and roughly similar extension, eq'd properly and used in same setting etc...) would you say there is a noticeable difference in sound quality between a ported sub and a sealed sub?
On the other hand, this concept of two different types of sub can be equalized to the same frequency response is never true, but somehow is circulated in the forum as the base of some fair comparison.


Josh at Data-bass has an article trying to EQ horn sub, sealed sub and vented sub to the same reference curve. But the first problem he ran into is he cannot completely get rid of the ringing of horn sub. Second, EQ sealed sub FR to that of vented sub FR is easy while EQ vented sub FR to that of sealed sub FR is difficult because sealed sub rolls off at 12db/oct rate and vented sub rolls off at 24db/oct rate. You can add a 12db/oct roll-off to sealed sub to make it similar to 24db/oct. But you cannot add 12db/oct boost to the vented sub to make the roll-off 12db/oct.

The comment from my previous post was NOT based on sealed sub and ported sub being EQ to the same frequency response. Rather it is based on a 12db/oct roll-off sealed sub vs a 24db/oct roll-off vented sub.

Last edited by Rythmik; Today at 07:04 AM.
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post #19966 of 19973 Old Today, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd10ac View Post
Any reviews on the FVX15?

We have 3 customers contributed their feedback, available on the review link of FVX15 page.


FVX15 is based on the same design formula of well-received FV15HP. The enclosure is same. The driver DS1502 has similar T/S parameters as DS1510 driver in FV15HP. The amplifier has same servo controll as FV15HP. So one can expect the sound quality of the two are very similar. The main difference is slightly less output than FV15HP.

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post #19967 of 19973 Old Today, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Interesting that so much of the step response energy is in high frequencies. That explains why high output speakers can achieve a bass slam that typical speakers cannot (and one of the reasons why my JTRs are so fun). Of course, the sub impulse response also has an important role to play for slam, both with the speed of the attack, and for certain types of signals, the speed of the decay.
Having a very clean sub that does not degrade the trailing edge in combination with good integration of mains and sub so the sounds around the crossover point are not "smeared" is critical to the sort of "slam" most of us want. I suspect where a lot of systems fall down are in those areas; a sub that "rings" and does not decay cleanly, and not getting the phasing right when integrating the sub with the mains so the step is not clean.

The sub cannot really contribute to the initial (HF) step, it has not (nor would we wish it to have) the bandwidth. It should add the LF sound then get out of the way when the sound decays. The most revealing aspect of subwoofer impulse response IMO is how it reacts after the impulse. Step response is good for this, and observing the envelope of a sine wave applied suddenly.

Of course, the main speakers are not immune to problems in phasing as they transition from one driver to another, either. Transient response measurements in reviews can be enlightening (and a little scary sometimes). It is interesting how "bad" it can get and still sound good to us, and how much better it sounds when we fix what we did not know was broken.

IME/IMO - Don

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
We have 3 customers contributed their feedback, available on the review link of FVX15 page.


FVX15 is based on the same design formula of well-received FV15HP. The enclosure is same. The driver DS1502 has similar T/S parameters as DS1510 driver in FV15HP. The amplifier has same servo controll as FV15HP. So one can expect the sound quality of the two are very similar. The main difference is slightly less output than FV15HP.
Thanks for the reply, I am trying to replace my sealed 15" sub and would like to try a Rythmik. I really want the FVX15 but I know for my wifes happiness I should be looking at the L22. The last two big subwoofers that I have brought home haven't been met with much approval and frankly I don't need huge output though it is nice to have.
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As I still waffle on my sub decision I finally got a UMIK-1 and REW set up and ran some experiments on my existing PC-Ultra. First disclosure this is my first time using REW. Next Audyssey was was previous set up for the sub with all ports open, I did NOT re-run Audyssey between each test as I was just looking to get some SPL and FR numbers to see if dual sealed subs can work for me. These are all with my PC-Ultra with the older BASH amp. A few interesting observations for a novice, first and foremost while not in the graphs I am uploading) the distortion numbers for this sun were mind boggling low at all frequencies for the first 10 harmonics. I did include the sealed 20Hz as it seems impressive to me. The second thing was how well the FR curve was for sealed mode, it was solid down to 7Hz. I did loose gain compared to all ports open and as I have read you can hear the gain once you get upward of 30Hz. I am wondering how well Audyssey will flatten that out. I did some manual testing to see what it would take to get 110db down around 5Hz and below and had to crank the REW signal generator to -3db and then the sub went silent ;-). Clearly the BASH was at it;s limit because the fuse on the sub blew. First time in 7 years of ownership and fortunately still had the 2 spare fuses SVS shipped with the sub.

What I can not explain is why the sub rolls off over 80Hz the AVR is set to LPF at 120Hz and the speaker crossovers are 100Hz yet in every scenarios the sub rolls fast at 80Hz? Any thoughts on why? Makes me think I am missing content in the 80-100Hz range with the AVR sending below 100Hz and the sub not handling it.

Based on these graphs I am inclined to think that Audyssey might clean up the dip in the 10-30Hz range then sealed is a definite possibly, especially with dual sealed subs!

Any thoughts and feedback is welcome as I procrastinate on my sub decision.
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Whoever it was here that mentioned not using the included rubber feet on carpet for easy moving... thank you. So much easier to move the sub from sweet spot to out of the way spot.
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post #19972 of 19973 Unread Today, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kluken View Post
What I can not explain is why the sub rolls off over 80Hz the AVR is set to LPF at 120Hz and the speaker crossovers are 100Hz yet in every scenarios the sub rolls fast at 80Hz? Any thoughts on why? Makes me think I am missing content in the 80-100Hz range with the AVR sending below 100Hz and the sub not handling it.
First thing I would check is to make sure any crossover/LPF on the subwoofer itself was disabled or turned up as far as it would go.

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RYTHMIK - wow guys. I am blown away by how awesome my system sounds now. Huge thanks to Brian and Enrico for all the guidance and advice and for fellow forum members for sharing their experiences and helping me discover Rythmik in the first place.

Not only is Rythmik making amazing subwoofers but also these guys have a true passion to teach and share their knowledge to help the customer find sonic bliss in their home.

Step 1: Buy an FV15HP
Step 2: Buy another FV15HP
wyld0 is online now  
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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f12g subwoofer , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub

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