Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 666 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19951 of 19962 Old Today, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
The problem with running smaller speakers full-range is that distort heavily with large'ish LF signals. I have measured 50% and more distortion from some very fine speakers when driven to 80 dB SPL at the listening position with a tone at their -3 dB point. Once you add a sub and offload that LF content, it cleans up the rest of the main speaker's frequency range.

Subs have the same problem, thought usually at a higher SPL, but that is one reason my first sub (a DIY job) decades ago was a servo design. As has every one since (which, actually, is only Rythmik since I went from my old DIY to a pair of F12's).

BTW, I have a pair of nice KEF's upstairs, but they are pretty old (not as old as my Maggies).

FWIWFM - Don
Yeah, I think the main advantage of full range speakers is that they are easy to set up. Subs can be pretty tricky to set up well, but once you do, I prefer them over running speakers full range (unless it's a bad sub).

Good, properly set up subs should create the illusion of great full range sound coming out of your mains.
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post #19952 of 19962 Old Today, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Yeah, I think the main advantage of full range speakers is that they are easy to set up. Subs can be pretty tricky to set up well, but once you do, I prefer them over running speakers full range (unless it's a bad sub).

Good, properly set up subs should create the illusion of great full range sound coming out of your mains.

I on the other hand have always advocated front speakers with sub. Here is my reason. True full range speakers are bulky. The size means it is less likely to avoid the diffraction on the enclosure, an effect that can cause wavy frequency response in the midrange and above. In addition, enclosure internal will have longer standing wave. In short, it is less like a point source. That is how we started with bookshelf speakers with narrow profile and provide execellent imaging capability. Second, it is important that the subwoofer level needs to be adjustable. A subwoofer arrangement makes that an easier task.
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post #19953 of 19962 Old Today, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
I on the other hand have always advocated front speakers with sub. Here is my reason. True full range speakers are bulky. The size means it is less likely to avoid the diffraction on the enclosure, an effect that can cause wavy frequency response in the midrange and above. In addition, enclosure internal will have longer standing wave. In short, it is less like a point source. That is how we started with bookshelf speakers with narrow profile and provide execellent imaging capability. Second, it is important that the subwoofer level needs to be adjustable. A subwoofer arrangement makes that an easier task.
That's part of my point. A proper sub setup is superior for many reasons. The main plus of a full range setup is that the bass integration has been done for you at the factory.
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post #19954 of 19962 Old Today, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Opposite walls or corners is ideal, because it will cancel out room modes. You just need to make sure to time align them at the listening position. Many receivers with 2 sub outs will do that automatically for you.

If WAF is an issue, go with the glossy finish. It looks fantastic. Well worth the premium, IMO.
Yup, cancel room modes and frequencies as well, hence my comment about the phase.

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
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post #19955 of 19962 Old Today, 07:02 AM
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Jim, you mentioned that you 'had' 1 E15HP - may I ask you what subwoofer(s) you're currently using now?
Whatever I happen to be reviewing at the moment. It's a non-stop stream of products it seems.

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post #19956 of 19962 Old Today, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
The problem with running smaller speakers full-range is that distort heavily with large'ish LF signals. I have measured 50% and more distortion from some very fine speakers when driven to 80 dB SPL at the listening position with a tone at their -3 dB point. Once you add a sub and offload that LF content, it cleans up the rest of the main speaker's frequency range.

...

BTW, I have a pair of nice KEF's upstairs, but they are pretty old (not as old as my Maggies).

FWIWFM - Don
WRT first paragraph, you're describing intermodulation distortion (IMD). That type of distortion is quite rubbish and is very obvious when encountered. The F12SE sorted that straight away.

What model KEF do you have?

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+1

Use the right tool for the job.
Indeed.

In my case, it was actually a combination of items. When the sub arrived, I was driving the system with a Denon AVR-3310. Not sure what changes Denon implemented in theit upper 2012 AVR models, but the AVR-3310 was replaced in late 2012 with my current bit of kit. That new AVR improved the system sound quality, significantly.

2012 was the year of significant design changes across the whole of the Denon AVR models.
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post #19957 of 19962 Old Today, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Iain- View Post
WRT first paragraph, you're describing intermodulation distortion (IMD). That type of distortion is quite rubbish and is very obvious when encountered. The F12SE sorted that straight away.

What model KEF do you have?
No, I was speaking of harmonic distortion, though IMD occurs as well, and is as you say much more obvious since it creates non-harmonic tones that do not fit with the music. Often I have found when people describe a sub as "louder" or "fuller" it is because the second and higher harmonics are much higher. Offloading the mains helps both THD and IMD (note IMD is 9.54 dB higher than HD for a given power input and I have always felt it way more important than HD).

KEF Q70 towers (pair) plus a Model 100 (Reference Series) center. No sub or surrounds in that system. Powered by an old Yamaha RX-V690.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #19958 of 19962 Old Today, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
People cannot reliably determine whether they are listening to ported, sealed, or horn in blind listening tests, especially when they are eq'd as closely as possible. I think there are subtle differences that can affect the sound of a sub, but well designed subs eq'd the same in room would be impossible to tell apart in honest blind testing imo.
The correct test is first unveil the subwoofers. Let the listeners "remember and learn" how each subwoofer sound. Then cover them with veil and do the blind tests that way. Let me emphasize, it is important to understand the difference between absolute vs relative. The relative is much easier for us to understand. For instance, comparing the worst sealed sub to the best vented sub does not bring essense to the discussion. Comparing the impulse response of a 14hz extension sealed sub to a 40hz extension ported sub does not bring essense to the discussion.

We should also know impulse response is how electrical engineers/mathematicians come up to calculate the output response based on the input signals. The process is called convolution. It slices the input signals into infinitely small slices (very much like how we do integral). For each of those slices, it produces an output response similar to impulse response times the slice height (which is strength at that moment), and then we add all those infinite numbers of impulse response together and that is how we get the output. We can imagine if the impulse response is wavy, there is bound to be a particular input signal that will cause the output to be wavy. We should not dispute that or call it a myth.

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post #19959 of 19962 Unread Today, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
The correct test is first unveil the subwoofers. Let the listeners "remember and learn" how each subwoofer sound. Then cover them with veil and do the blind tests that way. Let me emphasize, it is important to understand the difference between absolute vs relative. The relative is much easier for us to understand. For instance, comparing the worst sealed sub to the best vented sub does not bring essense to the discussion. Comparing the impulse response of a 14hz extension sealed sub to a 40hz extension ported sub does not bring essense to the discussion.

We should also know impulse response is how electrical engineers/mathematicians come up to calculate the output response based on the input signals. The process is called convolution. It slices the input signals into infinitely small slices (very much like how we do integral). For each of those slices, it produces an output response similar to impulse response times the slice height (which is strength at that moment), and then we add all those infinite numbers of impulse response together and that is how we get the output. We can imagine if the impulse response is wavy, there is bound to be a particular input signal that will cause the output to be wavy. We should not dispute that or call it a myth.
So all things being equal (quality of materials, quality of design, quality of build and roughly similar extension, eq'd properly and used in same setting etc...) would you say there is a noticeable difference in sound quality between a ported sub and a sealed sub?
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post #19960 of 19962 Unread Today, 11:29 AM
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So all things being equal (quality of materials, quality of design, quality of build and roughly similar extension, eq'd properly and used in same setting etc...) would you say there is a noticeable difference in sound quality between a ported sub and a sealed sub?

The short answer is sealed sub will sound "leaner" compared to the "full-body" ported sub sound. But full-body can sometimes be interpreted as "boomy" for those favor sealed sub sound quality. The trade-off for ported sub is how to get the "full-body" sound without becoming "boomy". It is tricky, but we think that is the selling point of our subs.

BTW, this full body sound is sometimes is the reason we interpret the bass as slow or fast. If the sound projects an overly large object, we often associate that with slower movement. So our intuition is to call that kind of bass as slow bass. Now Dan Wiggins from Adire was the first person is use impulse response to demonstrate that the fastest bass is "tweeter". The reason is he was looking at the rising edge of the impulse response to compare if indeed the bass is faster from one sub vs another. It should have been the tail he needed to check. The rising edge of the impulse response is solely determined by the upper end extension. So he was looking at the wrong place. Second flaw of his test is that the impulse response distribute the energy same per Hz. What does that mean? The impulse signal is highly concentrated at high frequency. If we have a impulse response of a 20hz to 20khz signal, half of the energy is between 10khz and 20khz. The frequency band between 20hz to 100hz is only 80/20000 of the signal 0.4%. How do you get significance of your result with 0.4% contents? The correct method should have been step response. Step response is the integral of impulse response. It makes the energy per octave more uniform. Unfortunately, his article sticks (cannot be retracted) and is mis-quoted over and over again.

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post #19961 of 19962 Unread Today, 12:47 PM
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I saw that the new L12 is using a paper driver.
I am wondering how the L12 compares to the
F12G?? I realize the enclosure is a bit bigger on
The F12G, but what other differences are there?

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post #19962 of 19962 Unread Today, 01:24 PM
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I saw that the new L12 is using a paper driver.
I am wondering how the L12 compares to the
F12G?? I realize the enclosure is a bit bigger on
The F12G, but what other differences are there?
I went back to find the recent discussion we had on this. Some really good information can be had starting here:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1214550-official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread-632.html#post34949441
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f12g subwoofer , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub

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