Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 673 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20161 of 28593 Old 08-26-2015, 08:15 PM
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Awesome, thanks Enrico, and please thank Brian for me (and safe travels)!

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post #20162 of 28593 Old 08-27-2015, 05:00 AM
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How does the F15 compare to a higher end sub like the JL 13 or something of that price range?
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post #20163 of 28593 Old 08-27-2015, 06:31 AM
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I compared to Velodyne, Paradigm, ML, B&W, and a few others I have forgotten that were mostly in the $3k to $5k (retail) range. To my ears Rythmik is "higher-end". To be fair, it did not sound significantly better than the much more expensive subs, and some of them had higher output with lower distortion despite the servo, but by and large my Rythmik equaled or bettered the pricey subs for sound quality. Essentially I could pay $1k to $1.5k with Rythmik, or get similar performance for $3k to $5k from a traditional brand.

I do not really remember JL but IIRC it was a great sub. I did not have much time to listen to one and never in my system (nor many of the others). The one I was looking at was competitive but still about 2x Rythmik. Some (perhaps many) of the $1k to $2k subs I found to exhibit excessive "ringing" that muddied the sound so I had to bump my price range to find one that I felt would integrate well with my planar speakers. Then I found Rythmik -- I bought a pair of F12's for less than I had (reluctantly) planned to spend on a single sub at a local store.

IME/IMO, YMMV, etc. - Don
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post #20164 of 28593 Old 08-27-2015, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
Anyone got/heard a Rythmik L12? Is its output really has high as implied?

Per the Rythmik website subwoofer summary page, http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products1.html the L12, at 20 Hz max SPL, would be 1dB below the F12 which would be 9.5 dB below the VF15HP, which means the L12 would be 10.5dB below the FV15HP.

Per Databass, http://www.data-bass.com/systems the FV15HP produces 108.1 to 108.3 max 2 meter SPL at 20Hz in 2 and 1 port modes.

That would imply the L12 is around 97.5 dB at 20Hz.

For comparison, per Audioholics quoting a third party test, the SVS SB-2000 puts out 92.1 dB at 20 Hz and per Databass, the PSA XS-15SE is at 97.6 dB at 20 Hz and the SVS SB-13 Ultra is 96.5

That means the L12 would have the output of two SB-2000s, which has almost twice as powerful amplifier (500 WRMS on the SB-2000 vs 300 WRMS on the L12)
I will not read it like that. L12 should be comparable to SB-2000 with 1db or so difference at most. The reason Audioholic numbers are different from those of Data-bass is because the measurement distances are different.

The maximum output should be a concern only when you really want to push the subwoofer hard, which we don't do normally.

Last edited by Rythmik; 08-27-2015 at 02:35 PM.
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post #20165 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by blackjack616 View Post
How does the F15 compare to a higher end sub like the JL 13 or something of that price range?
In what world is JL high end? They are the automobile equivalent of Bose... some quality, but mostly name brand money scheming.
In an effort to add something helpful to that jeer, The F15 sub to JL 13W7 is like a Maserati compared to a Honda Accord.
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post #20166 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by usaforce87 View Post
In what world is JL high end? They are the automobile equivalent of Bose... some quality, but mostly name brand money scheming.
In an effort to add something helpful to that jeer, The F15 sub to JL 13W7 is like a Maserati compared to a Honda Accord.
JL Audio is a high end manufacturer in the home theater and 2 channel music worlds. I have no experience with them in the auto world, so I can't comment on how they are in that space, but I do have direct exposure to their subwoofer products for the home. They are highly regarded for their exceptional engineering, construction and sound quality, and there is most definitely valid reasons why that is.
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post #20167 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by usaforce87 View Post
In what world is JL high end? They are the automobile equivalent of Bose... some quality, but mostly name brand money scheming.
In an effort to add something helpful to that jeer, The F15 sub to JL 13W7 is like a Maserati compared to a Honda Accord.
I have JL Audio subwoofers in my cars and they are really good. Very clean and accurate with no boomy sound. I have customers almost everyday asking if our products can be used for car audio application, unfortunately they are not suitable for car audio for many reasons but I always point them into JL Audio direction when car audio comes to the conversation.
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Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL & Sierra 2s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Marantz SR7008 | Parasound Halo P5 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
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post #20168 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I have JL Audio subwoofers in my cars and they are really good. Very clean and accurate with no boomy sound. I have customers almost everyday asking if our products can be used for car audio application, unfortunately they are not suitable for car audio for many reasons but I always point them into JL Audio direction when car audio comes to the conversation.
Or point them towards Image Dynamics. I went from a JL Audio W3 to an ID V.4 and it was a significant improvement. At least in my opinion. I now have a single SI BM MK IV in my truck and it blows both away in sound quality and SPL.

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post #20169 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 07:06 AM
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I dont know anything about JLAudio and they may be highly regarded for good reason. But $2600 for a 10" subwoofer seems a little Bose-ish to me.
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post #20170 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
I dont know anything about JLAudio and they may be highly regarded for good reason. But $2600 for a 10" subwoofer seems a little Bose-ish to me.
Man, those two aren't even close. Just because something is expensive doesn't mean it's also overrated. JL Audio is definitely not aimed at the "best bang for the buck!" crowd, so for those folks they aren't on the shopping list. They're target audience is the discerning individual who wants exquisitely made US products.

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post #20171 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
Man, those two aren't even close. Just because something is expensive doesn't mean it's also overrated. JL Audio is definitely not aimed at the "best bang for the buck!" crowd, so for those folks they aren't on the shopping list. They're target audience is the discerning individual who wants exquisitely made US products.
No wonder I havent heard of them. Im just a poor cheap ignorant audiophile wannabe.
I'll keep them in mind if I win the lottery though.
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post #20172 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 08:28 AM
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post #20173 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 11:48 AM
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Just for fun, JT. Edge of Tomorrow at reference MV with +6db subs hot. There was port chuffing but it was not bad. No bad sound was heard at all Again, look at how fast Rythmik puts a brake on the driver. Sorry for the crappy phone video.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8prrwqwhk0...20hot.MOV?dl=0

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post #20174 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Just for fun, JT. Edge of Tomorrow at reference MV with +6db subs hot. There was port chuffing but it was not bad. No bad sound was heard at all That noise at the end of the clip was not from the sub. Again, look at how fast Rythmik puts a brake on the driver. Sorry for the crappy phone video.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8prrwqwhk0...20hot.MOV?dl=0
Stupid work has dropbox blocked. I'll have to check it out when I get home.

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post #20175 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Just for fun, JT. Edge of Tomorrow at reference MV with +6db subs hot. There was port chuffing but it was not bad. No bad sound was heard at all That noise at the end of the clip was not from the sub. Again, look at how fast Rythmik puts a brake on the driver. Sorry for the crappy phone video.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8prrwqwhk0...20hot.MOV?dl=0
Do you have a single or dual FV15HP?

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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
No wonder I havent heard of them. Im just a poor cheap ignorant audiophile wannabe.
I'll keep them in mind if I win the lottery though.
In terms of technology and engineering, JL Audio has few peers in the industry. A JL Audio subwoofer is designed and manufactured wholly in-house. They make the enclosure, the driver, and the amplifier. They have several patents in subwoofer driver and amplifier design. What ID company can make that claim?

My humble system:

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post #20177 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by usaforce87 View Post
In what world is JL high end? They are the automobile equivalent of Bose... some quality, but mostly name brand money scheming.
In an effort to add something helpful to that jeer, The F15 sub to JL 13W7 is like a Maserati compared to a Honda Accord.
What a wildly inaccurate statement. The audiophile equivalent of record-store clerk taste in artists--"if they're big, popular, and successful, they can't possibly be good."

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Vizio E601I-A3; Darbee Darblet; Pioneer Elite BDP-62FD universal blu-ray player; Pioneer Elite SC-67 AVR, Antimode 8033, Dual PSA S1801's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, GeForce 980Ti, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case)
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post #20178 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 02:07 PM
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Do you have a single or dual FV15HP?
Dual.
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post #20179 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 02:33 PM
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In terms of technology and engineering, JL Audio has few peers in the industry. A JL Audio subwoofer is designed and manufactured wholly in-house. They make the enclosure, the driver, and the amplifier. They have several patents in subwoofer driver and amplifier design. What ID company can make that claim?
Impressive. And American...I like that a lot.
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post #20180 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 04:19 PM
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I suppose I could have bought a JL sub if I didn't want to wait for the CA port labor dispute. And then only have 1 sub instead of two, and no laptop or mic to run REW. No thanks. It was worth waiting.

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post #20181 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 05:35 PM
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How does the F15 compare to a higher end sub like the JL 13 or something of that price range?
JL is a company with very solid engineering. There are a lot of innovations (ie IP) on their drivers. But those are needed in order to be able to crank up high SPL in a SMALL enclosure using small diameter drivers with long excursion because thermal management (not to fry the driver), maintaining high BL value from a pretty big magnetic gap, and maintaining large excursion without the rubber surround becoming distorted are their top priority issues. So the key is SMALL enclosure, a desirable feature in car audio. If one does not need SMALL enclosures, those innovations may not be very valuable, a reason why we don’t them in our front speakers.

F15HP is designed with a different design philosophy. Our top priority is fast transient response(meaning low Q and high damping). To achieve that, we need to allow our subs to go down to 14hz with a separate rumble filter control. JL subs pretty much have that rumble filter engaged all the time. A rumble filter always adds ringing to the transient response.


Servo operation addresses another key problem in speakers (not just subwoofers)– memory effect. Memory effect can be explained as follows. If we have 4 notes A, B, C and D with different strength, the reproduced strength of each notes should not depends on the order they play. For instance, the note A strength should not be depend on if it plays as ABCD, DCBA, or DABC…etc. The ideal case that playback does not have memory effect is crucial to all audio gears. Its importance is even higher than distortion. For those who play pianos know not all of our 5 fingers have exactly same strength. A lot of piano practice is to add some compensation so that all 5 fingers appear to have same strength. Other instrument players face the same problem. We certainly don’t want audio gears to add their own memory effects. What are the factors giving arise to the memory effects in subwoofer? First one is the hysteresis of spider/surround of the drivers. Low compliance drivers (those with surround as hard as tires) just make the problem more serious because the spring force now mainly comes from surround/spider than the enclosure itself. The latter is much more linear with very low memory effect. We don’t see stiff surround drivers in our front speaker for a reason. It makes memory effect worse. The second is the voice coil temperature. Thermal behavior in drivers is very complicated. Each note of A, B, C, D leaves a different amount of thermal trace to the voice coil and whatever is played next depends on the history of previously played notes. That is a clear memory effect. There is a surge in high efficiency front speakers on this forum. One of the advantages they offer is they have lower thermal induced memory effect. Between these two sources of memory effect, servo operation reduces the first source by a factor of 3x(or 10db) and completely remove the thermal memory effect. Hope this offers a different perspective to your question.


PS. one may wonder why JL does not offer PR-based subs. Well in one of the CES several years ago, Earthquake wanted to demonstrate their PR-based subs can play 10hz. As soon as they did that, it was very apparent that sub was dancing on the floor and wanted to run away from the scene by itself at the same time. The company representative used his foot to pin that sub to the floor.
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post #20182 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 07:06 PM
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I'll keep them in mind if I win the lottery though.
Pair of Gothams when you win the lottery. Or like 10 F25s.
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post #20183 of 28593 Old 08-28-2015, 08:14 PM
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Attached a plot comparing two vs. four subs (2 - 200 Hz, 5 dB grid). With four subs I was able to smooth out some room resonance issues, including a dip between 50 and 60 Hz and a big peak up around 120 Hz (sub crossover is set and 70 Hz so that big rise should not be happening; with four subs I was able to suppress and narrow-band it. The subs are hooked up as a mono group but claibrated in pairs. I did fool around with individual settings, but the pairs are symmetric so tweaking them as pairs worked fine. The second rear sub is slaved off the first in the final configuration.

More pictures showing final (for now) system response over on the XMC-1 thread: Emotiva XMC-1 Owners Only Thread I shall note that four subs allowed me to really dial in the overall system response and integration with the mains so I have the best sound I have had in years. Should have added them a while back but other things kept coming up.

I adjusted pre/pro gain so the plots mostly overlie; I did get a large boost in output by adding the rear pair (do not need it, though).

Now of course I wish I had XLR2 amps on my first pair of F12's but everything is working OK as-is. I was worried about ground loops sice the rear subs are on a totally differnt circuit but no problems (whether due to the balanced XLR connections or just luck I could not say). I really like having a trigger input on the subs! Saved me having to get a couple more X10 appliance modules to switch them on and off.

It was a lot of work (had a couple of vacation days I had to take; this used a substantial portion of them) but I am happy with the results. Some sonic issues I've been hearing seem gone now, probably due to a more even sound field and smoother frequency response for the whole system.

Happy, yes I am! Thanks Brian and Enrico! - Don
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post #20184 of 28593 Old 08-29-2015, 08:06 AM
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Just put an order in for an lv12r for my 18x15 room
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post #20185 of 28593 Old 08-29-2015, 08:29 AM
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It was a lot of work (had a couple of vacation days I had to take; this used a substantial portion of them) but I am happy with the results. Some sonic issues I've been hearing seem gone now, probably due to a more even sound field and smoother frequency response for the whole system.

Happy, yes I am!
That's great!

I was looking at the graph and thinking not bad. Then I realized it went all the way down to 2Hz Outstanding!

Four subs definitely rule.
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post #20186 of 28593 Old 08-29-2015, 08:42 AM
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I looked over the website but didn't see if any of the subs came with a high pass output?
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post #20187 of 28593 Old 08-29-2015, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Attached a plot comparing two vs. four subs (2 - 200 Hz, 5 dB grid). With four subs I was able to smooth out some room resonance issues, including a dip between 50 and 60 Hz and a big peak up around 120 Hz (sub crossover is set and 70 Hz so that big rise should not be happening; with four subs I was able to suppress and narrow-band it. The subs are hooked up as a mono group but claibrated in pairs. I did fool around with individual settings, but the pairs are symmetric so tweaking them as pairs worked fine. The second rear sub is slaved off the first in the final configuration.

More pictures showing final (for now) system response over on the XMC-1 thread: Emotiva XMC-1 Owners Only Thread I shall note that four subs allowed me to really dial in the overall system response and integration with the mains so I have the best sound I have had in years. Should have added them a while back but other things kept coming up.

I adjusted pre/pro gain so the plots mostly overlie; I did get a large boost in output by adding the rear pair (do not need it, though).

Now of course I wish I had XLR2 amps on my first pair of F12's but everything is working OK as-is. I was worried about ground loops sice the rear subs are on a totally differnt circuit but no problems (whether due to the balanced XLR connections or just luck I could not say). I really like having a trigger input on the subs! Saved me having to get a couple more X10 appliance modules to switch them on and off.

It was a lot of work (had a couple of vacation days I had to take; this used a substantial portion of them) but I am happy with the results. Some sonic issues I've been hearing seem gone now, probably due to a more even sound field and smoother frequency response for the whole system.

Happy, yes I am! Thanks Brian and Enrico! - Don
WOW.... -6dB @ 7Hz.. That's really impressive, Don!!! Good job
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post #20188 of 28593 Old 08-29-2015, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
I looked over the website but didn't see if any of the subs came with a high pass output?
The F12 with A370PEQ amp comes with HPF out @ 80Hz. Also our XLR2 amp has HPF out (mono) via XLR fixed at 80Hz as well.
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post #20189 of 28593 Old 08-29-2015, 11:25 AM
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I'm in the market for a sub, but not sure which model I'd be happier with. I'm thinking either the LV12R or the F12. I'd be using the sub more for HT than music, say 80/20 split. I don't consider myself a bass head; I've never cared much about the room shaking while watching a movie. But I do like tight bass when listening to music.

My current speakers are Paradigm Studio 60's version 2, but in the next year or two I plan on upgrading. At this time, the Ascend Sierra Tower are at the top of my list.

My listening room (aka "the basement") is 14 x 27 feet with a drop ceiling 6.66 feet high. About 2517 cubic feet.

I'm not concerned about the price difference between the LV12R and the F12, but I'd be reluctant to spend more.

I'd welcome any suggestions as to which model (or any other) people may think I'd be happier with.
Thanks.
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post #20190 of 28593 Old 08-29-2015, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meli View Post
I'm in the market for a sub, but not sure which model I'd be happier with. I'm thinking either the LV12R or the F12. I'd be using the sub more for HT than music, say 80/20 split. I don't consider myself a bass head; I've never cared much about the room shaking while watching a movie. But I do like tight bass when listening to music.

My current speakers are Paradigm Studio 60's version 2, but in the next year or two I plan on upgrading. At this time, the Ascend Sierra Tower are at the top of my list.

My listening room (aka "the basement") is 14 x 27 feet with a drop ceiling 6.66 feet high. About 2517 cubic feet.

I'm not concerned about the price difference between the LV12R and the F12, but I'd be reluctant to spend more.

I'd welcome any suggestions as to which model (or any other) people may think I'd be happier with.
Thanks.
In a room like that I would also consider the L22 which has more output than both, the LV12R and the F12.
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f12g subwoofer , lv12r , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub



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