Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 675 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20221 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Yes. I stand behind all the above numbers. Those numbers are from my own simulation with no temperature uncertainty.

Don't assume L12 uses the same driver as in LV12R even though they look the same. The driver in L12 uses a larger motor with higher excursion and higher BL value. Higher BL value improves output at 20hz.

I know you may have referred to the difference between F15HP and FV15HP. The drivers are the same in those models. You may infer that I can also do the same trick the increase the BL value of driver in F15HP and then narrow the difference between F15HP and FV15HP. But there are other considerations preventing me from doing that.
Thank you. The L12 seems like a great subwoofer and an outstanding value at its price. Would your share your in-house max 2-meter SPL at 16Hz, 20 Hz and 25Hz for the L12? I am very much considering it for a home theater and would greatly appreciate such measurements. I am considering subwoofers costing much more but based on those implication, the L12 is what I should buy so I would like to confirm what general max output it would do around thiose frequency to judge how much headroom it would have for me.

If you do not want to post them publicly, would you PM?

Last edited by checker9; Yesterday at 02:59 PM.
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post #20222 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MrGrey View Post
Guys, my room was recarpeted and the floor leveled out so i moved back into it today after one week. i had to do my calibration all over again since everything was relocated to a different part of the room. after i did my calibration i checked my speaker distances but not my subwoofer or speaker levels. while watching X-Men: Days of Future Past Rogue Cut at 01:43:53 where the robot attack the jet it gets really loud and heavy me not knowing my freaking avr maxed out the level for the sub at +10 which is way beyond what my house or body can handle. i have my sub at Hi/14 Two Ports open. i smelled something weird from the port not the classic wood smell but a faint burn smell, a sound like someone knocking on a wooden door was heard once before i stopped the movie. the cone was hot enough and i flinched when i touched the back of the amp i couldn't keep my hand there for 5 seconds. i turned the sub off then fixed the setting in the avr then played Mad Max: Fury Road at a low volume enough to have the cone moving air in and out to cool things down and the smell was no longer there. i am close to buying a new Receiverbecause this one has been a problem since day one. was it clipping or killing the sub? idk you guys might. at this point i am ready to put away this avr before it destroys my speakers and sub.
You are doing everything correct in thermal management. Don't just leave the driver at idle when something like this happens. Doing that will burn the driver because the heat from the inner layers of voice coil has not spread out to the voice coil surface yet, where the air cooling takes place. So leaving the driver idle will further increase the voice coil temperature.

For subs like FV15HP with class H amps, the amp heatsink temperature is a good indictor of voice coil temperature. Constantly monitor its temperature is a good idea. Class-D amps do not provide that correlation.


In addition, if you feel the special effect is just too strong, we should check the AVR LFE offset setting immediately.

Last edited by Rythmik; Yesterday at 03:08 PM.
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post #20223 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
Thank you. The L12 seems like a great subwoofer and an outstanding value at its price. Would your share your in-house max 2-meter SPL at 16Hz, 20 Hz and 25Hz for the L12? I am very much considering it for a home theater and would greatly appreciate such measurements? If you do not want to post them publicly, would you PM?
I believe you are going about this all wrong. The L12 is a sealed 12" sub in a 14" x 14" x 15.5" cube, powered by a 300 WRMS amp. Hoffman's Iron Law all but guarantees that max output at 16 hz isn't going to be usable--not to mention that there is a rumble filter engaged at 18 hz anyway. Max output at 20 hz isn't likely to be that much either.

If you are concerned about output at 16 hz and 20 hz, you are looking at the wrong sub.
"

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post #20224 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post

If you do not want to post them publicly, would you PM?

I did receive your email for those numbers. I will get back to you with those numbers as I am overseas until Labor Day weekend.
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post #20225 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
I did receive your email for those numbers. I will get back to you with those numbers as I am overseas until Labor Day weekend.
Thanks.
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post #20226 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
You are doing everything correct in thermal management. Don't just leave the driver at idle when something like this happens. Doing that will burn the driver because the heat from the inner layers of voice coil has not spread out to the voice coil surface yet, where the air cooling takes place. So leaving the driver idle will further increase the voice coil temperature.

For subs like FV15HP with class H amps, the amp heatsink temperature is a good indictor of voice coil temperature. Constantly monitor its temperature is a good idea. Class-D amps do not provide that correlation.


In addition, if you feel the special effect is just too strong, we should check the AVR LFE offset setting immediately.
My avr unfortunately does not have an lfe offset only crossover for the speakers. from your expert opinion what could of caused that faint burnish smell that is no longer present an is it a cause for concern?. also what is the voice coil temperature limit?

Receiver - Sony STR-DH550
Front - Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-280F
Center
- Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-450C
Sub - Rythmik FV15HP

Last edited by MrGrey; Yesterday at 03:38 PM.
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post #20227 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
I believe you are going about this all wrong. The L12 is a sealed 12" sub in a 14" x 14" x 15.5" cube, powered by a 300 WRMS amp. Hoffman's Iron Law all but guarantees that max output at 16 hz isn't going to be usable--not to mention that there is a rumble filter engaged at 18 hz anyway. Max output at 20 hz isn't likely to be that much either.

If you are concerned about output at 16 hz and 20 hz, you are looking at the wrong sub.

We need to know that rumble filter has nothing to do with max output. You are thinking when we play movies, the movie tracks have same signal strength from 10hz all the way to 20khz. It does not do that.
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post #20228 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MrGrey View Post
My avr unfortunately does not have an lfe offset only crossover for the speakers. from your expert opinion what could of caused that faint burnish smell that is no longer present an is a cause for concern?. also what is the voice coil temperature limit?

It is the smell of the voice coil getting heat up. The actual voice coil temperature limit depends on the manufacturer's spec. In short, I don't have a definitive answer to your question. The voice coil in FV15HP is from Econowind in Florida. They are the best voice coil I can find.
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post #20229 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
We need to know that rumble filter has nothing to do with max output. You are thinking when we play movies, the movie tracks have same signal strength from 10hz all the way to 20khz. It does not do that.
,

1) I misspoke when I said the rumble filter is engaged at 18 hz--according to your website, it is engaged at 20 hz.

2) Notwithstanding my error, engaging a rumble filter at 20 hz reduces the output below that frequency--18 dB per octave, according to your site. Combined with the fact that the L12 is a compact sealed 12" design, I see no reason to believe that there would be much usable output at 16 hz. And IMHO, I don't see the L12 providing sufficient 20 hz output for a home theater enthusiast concerned with the performance at that frequency.

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Vizio E601I-A3; Darbee Darblet; Pioneer Elite BDP-62FD universal blu-ray player; Pioneer Elite SC-67 AVR, Dual PSA XS15se's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, Radeon R280, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case)
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post #20230 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 03:59 PM
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post #20231 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
,

1) I misspoke when I said the rumble filter is engaged at 18 hz--according to your website, it is engaged at 20 hz.


But have you checked the FR of our rumble-filtered HT curve on the web site? Rumble filter can add a response bump before rolling off. If an EE student disagree with me, he should never graduate. BTW, our HT-curve shows -3db at 19hz. Again frequency response has nothing to do with max SPL.


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2) Notwithstanding my error, engaging a rumble filter at 20 hz reduces the output below that frequency--18 dB per octave, according to your site. Combined with the fact that the L12 is a compact sealed 12" design, I see no reason to believe that there would be much usable output at 16 hz. And IMHO, I don't see the L12 providing sufficient 20 hz output for a home theater enthusiast concerned with the performance at that frequency.

I saw you also have a seal subs. Our seal sub will follow a similar FR of your sealed subs albeit a scaled down version. I don't think I ever misguided anyone otherwise.
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post #20232 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by blackjack616 View Post
Thank you... I currently have the F15 for my 2.1 channel setup but I'm currently making an HT room... I'm not sure if i want to get the Fv15 (maybe dual), dual F15 or get new sub brand all together like seaton submersive hp ; I'm a bit new to HT and don't really have the stores to listen to these subs
If you have an itch to test if the grass is greener, by all means try a Submersive; by all accounts it is a heckuva' sub! However, everything that led you to your F15's does not go away because you are setting up an HT system. I still like crisp bass without overhang and mine do HT fine for me. The choice is probably more about budget and room size, and of course preference, than brand or sealed vs. ported. I prefer sealed for all the usual reasons (never any port noise, am able to take advantage of additional room gain, potentially lower distortion though servo obviates much of that, etc.) Two (or more) subs allow you to provide better frequency response and is almost always preferred over one IMO, assuming you can place them properly.

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post #20233 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 04:33 PM
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But have you checked the FR of our rumble-filtered HT curve on the web site? Rumble filter can add a response bump before rolling off. If an EE student disagree with me, he should never graduate. BTW, our HT-curve shows -3db at 19hz. Again frequency response has nothing to do with max SPL.





I saw you also have a seal subs. Our seal sub will follow a similar FR of your sealed subs albeit a scaled down version. I don't think I ever misguided anyone otherwise.
I do have sealed subs--two of them in fact. I have them in a relatively small room, so I have some room gain going for me. In any event, max output at 16-25 hz was/is not a driving concern for me as it seems to be for checker9.

I agree that frequency response has nothing to do with max SPL, but the rumble filter still affects the output below cutoff frequency. How can it not? I could very well be missing something here--I am not an EE, just another hobbyist/dilettante.

You have not misguided anyone to the best of my knowledge. I am just stating my opinion that the L12 does not seem to be the best choice for someone concerned with max output performance in the 16-25 hz range for HT.

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Vizio E601I-A3; Darbee Darblet; Pioneer Elite BDP-62FD universal blu-ray player; Pioneer Elite SC-67 AVR, Dual PSA XS15se's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, Radeon R280, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case)
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post #20234 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 04:39 PM
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Why would anyone who is concerned about max output at 16-25hz be looking at any 12" sub?

Anyway, I had to recalibrate the system a bit so here's a plot of 2 L12s in a 10x12x8 room, fwiw.

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post #20235 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 04:55 PM
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Why would anyone who is concerned about max output at 16-25hz be looking at any 12" sub?

Anyway, I had to recalibrate the system a bit so here's a plot of 2 L12s in a 10x12x8 room, fwiw.

Very nice response!!

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post #20236 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 05:08 PM
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I do have sealed subs--two of them in fact. I have them in a relatively small room, so I have some room gain going for me. In any event, max output at 16-25 hz was/is not a driving concern for me as it seems to be for checker9.

It is actually less clear which sub is best has max output 16-25hz and I assume with sacrifice of outputs at other frequency. For sealed subs, the output follows 12db/oct roll-off. So the output at 10hz (14hz) will be, to the first order approximation, 12db (6db) down from the 20hz output. This extrapolation goes down to anything other than DC. For instance, output of 5hz is 24db down from 20hz. But same thing cannot be said for ported subs. Max SPL output below port tuning frequency drops rapidly.


Quote:
I agree that frequency response has nothing to do with max SPL, but the rumble filter still affects the output below cutoff frequency. How can it not? I could very well be missing something here--I am not an EE, just another hobbyist/dilettante.

OK. But rumble filter is "part of frequency response".


Quote:
You have not misguided anyone to the best of my knowledge.

That is good to know. Every sub has its sweet spot in its application. Otherwise, we won't be able to sell any of our 12" models.
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post #20237 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
It is the smell of the voice coil getting heat up. The actual voice coil temperature limit depends on the manufacturer's spec. In short, I don't have a definitive answer to your question. The voice coil in FV15HP is from Econowind in Florida. They are the best voice coil I can find.
o dam at least its not broken that would of destroyed me. i emailed the guys over at Econowind to see if they can help with some spec on that voice coil, fingers crossed they will help. thanks for all the help. the Rythmik team is incredible with helping the customers with all questions we have especially for us new to the high end ht systems . i am sure this is the best customer support on earth from any subwoofer company. you will have my continued support $$$ for years to come .

Receiver - Sony STR-DH550
Front - Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-280F
Center
- Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-450C
Sub - Rythmik FV15HP
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post #20238 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dadz41 View Post
I'm in the process of remodeling. The room is 20x25x20 . I purchased 2, L22's . There is no way I expected these subs to fill my room. I also purchased a Denon X4100W. After running Audyssey The subs were set at -11 and I bumped it up the sub trim adjustment to 2.5.
If Audyssey set your the sub output to -11dB you had the gain up too high when you ran the measurement. At this point you really don't have an accurate response because the EQ curve could not be set correctly. You should consider turning down the gain and running the measurement again.

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post #20239 of 20243 Old Yesterday, 06:39 PM
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YIn short, CEA2010 is not as accurate as most think because of this temperature dependency. It is just as much of a guideline.
Exactly my point for a long time; excellent reference for sure, but certainly not the only thing to use when comparing different products. Unfortunately too many do just that, and in so doing mistakenly assume product A is better than product B solely because of minor - sometimes inaudible - variations.

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post #20240 of 20243 Old Today, 02:46 AM
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I'm in the market for a sub, but not sure which model I'd be happier with. I'm thinking either the LV12R or the F12. I'd be using the sub more for HT than music, say 80/20 split. I don't consider myself a bass head; I've never cared much about the room shaking while watching a movie. But I do like tight bass when listening to music.

My current speakers are Paradigm Studio 60's version 2, but in the next year or two I plan on upgrading. At this time, the Ascend Sierra Tower are at the top of my list.

My listening room (aka "the basement") is 14 x 27 feet with a drop ceiling 6.66 feet high. About 2517 cubic feet.

I'm not concerned about the price difference between the LV12R and the F12, but I'd be reluctant to spend more.

I'd welcome any suggestions as to which model (or any other) people may think I'd be happier with.
Thanks.
Unless you need more than 95db output, I'd recommend the F12 now, with the plan to add another later. Get the L12 if the budget is tight. I honestly feel the L12 was right for me, but it wasn't available yet. I don't push my F12s quite to their potential but I have peace of mind knowing that they aren't stressing.
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So, I'm struggling with a combined HT/2-channel set up.

I have the bass on the HT dialed in perfectly, IMO. Deep, strong, accurate according to REW.

But, I find that I don't like the sound routed through my AVR for music only. The soundstage shrinks, higher notes seem harder (please, it's a subjective judgement). So I route that directly through an integrated amp. But now I don't have any bass because my mains are bookshelves.

My mains do OK with bass down to 70Hz, according to both specs and measurements.

I'm tempted to go the REL route with their speaker level + LFE connectors that combine the signals so that I keep the bass for both setups. But I'm hoping y'all can tell me how I can accomplish the same with Rythmiks.
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post #20242 of 20243 Old Today, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Unless you need more than 95db output, I'd recommend the F12 now, with the plan to add another later. Get the L12 if the budget is tight. I honestly feel the L12 was right for me, but it wasn't available yet. I don't push my F12s quite to their potential but I have peace of mind knowing that they aren't stressing.

Thanks. I doubt two F12's are in the budget, even over the long term. Maybe one L22 instead?
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Originally Posted by meli View Post
Thanks. I doubt two F12's are in the budget, even over the long term. Maybe one L22 instead?
If you are planning to stay with one subwoofer I would go for the L22. You get almost same extension of the F12 but +4dB more output. The L22 is a great subwoofer for HT and music as well.

Best Regards,

Enrico Castagnetti
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