Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 679 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20341 of 30889 Old 09-03-2015, 08:30 PM
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Enjoy! The servo makes a big difference in performance...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #20342 of 30889 Old 09-03-2015, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MrGoomba View Post
So from your experience with the 705, you don't think this is a worthwhile receiver to upgrade to for $175? Id prefer to not spend the money.
Accessories4less has a brand new Denon X4100 for $780 shipped. A very good buy.
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post #20343 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by meli View Post
Does the subwoofer come with a more extensive guide? Some of the terminology and concepts in the quick guide are not totally clear to me.
Some models (not all) have Installation Guides which are more in-depth than the Quick Guides. As an alternative, you could take a look at the "setup help" document linked in my sig below. If you do, don't let it overwhelm you, the process can be as complicated or as simple as you choose to make it.
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post #20344 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post
My new L12 was delivered Tues afternoon.
I've been waiting for this sub to come out.
The sub will be used in my bedroom 5.1
Paradigm Studio/SE system. I was previously
Using the 'one note wonder' Paradigm PDR-10.

I haven't really had a chance to fully put the
Sub through its paces yet. Heck, I haven't even
Had a chance to redo Audyssey yet. (Work)

Couple of quick impressions...
Unit came solidly double boxed..no damage.
It's a heavy little bugger for its size, about 55lbs.
I've only listen to music on it so far but,the difference
In quality put a smile on my face quickly. Bass was nice
And tight and to my ear 'quick'. Love the servo!
I did have to turn up the gain to about half way, which
Was a bit more than what I expected.

This weekend I will re-calibrate and run some good bass
Intense movies thru it. I don't expect to be disappointed.
The room is about 16x13 by the way.

I believe that this sub is a great entry level solution
For the budget minded user. I'm partial to sealed subs
And the physical size is great too. For $539 introductory price
And free shipping I don't see how you could go wrong.

I think after the weekend I put a post up in the general
Subwoofer forum. I think more folks should know about
This sub! the only place I've seen it mentioned is in
This dedicated thread.

Thanks!
Congrats Rythmik makes outstanding subs, even at the entry level. My LV12-R still impresses me to this day and I've had it now close to two years.

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post #20345 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by 3db View Post
Congrats Rythmik makes outstanding subs, even at the entry level. My LV12-R still impresses me to this day and I've had it now close to two years.

Attachment 924434
I put mine in the back of my HT behind couch since didnt have much room upfront with the towers... didnt think the sub would look good behind the tower but you are making me double think that. Looks great.
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post #20346 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 05:43 AM
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^^ you can even turn it side way if you have to.
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post #20347 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ you can even turn it side way if you have to.
no pics of where the sub is now, but this is the sound stage without the sub, you can see how little room I have. The towers are about 10 inches wide and I need to pull them away from both walls about a foot or so since they are bipolar.
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post #20348 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meli View Post
Does the subwoofer come with a more extensive guide? Some of the terminology and concepts in the quick guide are not totally clear to me.
That is the documentation. Rythmik has a lot of info on various webpages though. You might want to spend some time there.
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post #20349 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
That is the documentation. Rythmik has a lot of info on various webpages though. You might want to spend some time there.
+1
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post #20350 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
Some questions on the LV12R model please:

1) Does the LV12R have less maximum output in LFE input mode than L and R input mode? (I read that on some threads*.)
This is absolutely incorrect. The max output is determined by the power amplifier output (say 300WRMS) driving the driver. Think of the amplifier in LV12R as a pre-processor plus a power amp. When you have a pre-pro driving a power amp, does the pre-pro setting affect the max SPL output of the system? Absolutely not. The SPL is determined by the power amp only. So is the max SPL output for front speakers driven by your receiver and etc. Does playing DTS or Dolby change the max SPL output?

Quote:
2) Per the frequency response charts, on Rythmik's site, it seems in L and R input mode, the LV12R drops off in output above 75 to 80 Hz (seems maximum crossover point in that input mode),whereas in LFE input mode, it extends to 250 Hz. Is that correct, you would lose output with higher than 80 Hz crossover, or LFE content above 80 Hz in L and R input mode?
Same argument as above. The FR curve is the effect of the prepro EQ setting combined with the power amp. You may have thought FR of subwoofers are naturally flat. In fact, they can only extend down to 30hz to 40hz with the compact size that SVS, Hsu, or any other brands offer . A lot of DIYer do not understand in thinking that they just use an amp plus a driver, they should get flat down to 20hz response without getting any EQ. Then they gradually understand the tricks.

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3) Does the lV12R have a low rumble filter at 19 Hz (I read that in a few posts)? If so, does that curtail output below 19 Hz even more so than the normal ported drop off at its tuning frequency (i.e. does the filter pretty much stop output below that frequency)? If so, is there an EQ mode that would eliminate that filter to gain that output?
All vented subwoofers are decoupled from box spring force and therefore is prone to bottoming without rumble filter.
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Last edited by Rythmik; 09-04-2015 at 08:42 AM.
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post #20351 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
How much would that affect output? Per Rythmik site, it only produces 3.5 dB more than the similarly specced, but sealed, L12. Usually a ported version would have 6 to 9 dB more at tuned frequency. Perhaps the smaller port explains the only 3.5dB difference.
First, if you haven't done simulation and only relied on the data-bass results, you may not have noticed some subtleties. In sealed mode of all those multi-tuned ported subs, the sealed mode output may have been limited by the driver excursion, if the driver have had a larger excursion limit, the output of sealed can be further increased. That is why we don't recommend sealed mode for any of our ported subs because it can lead to driver bottoming. Please do not confuse our recommendation with others. In the case of SVS, the stiff rubber surround does not help sealed mode output even though the driver has a pretty good. So its sealed mode output is further handicapped and show larger SPL difference. Don't extrapolate that to other data.

Another thing to understand is port diameter does not affect the output as much as it affects port noise. If one increases the port diameter by 2x, the port length needs to increase by 4x and the max output is same. If you just increase the port diameter without changing the port length, the port tuning frequency increases by a factor of 2x. We pick the port size of LV12R to achieve 20hz extension. If we have picked 4", we would have not been able to achieve that.

Again, as I mentioned before, LV12R uses a different driver than the one in L12.
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Last edited by Rythmik; 09-04-2015 at 09:44 AM.
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post #20352 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 10:10 AM
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Great explanation as usual, Brian. Not to brag on Rythmik but there are lots of stuff on Brian's posts make sense and he explains things I have no idea about even though some of his explanation just goes straight over my head . Unlike other manufacturers where they tell me stuffs I already know. I guess having an engineer back ground and the love of music helps him design some of the best subs and explain thing well.
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post #20353 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MrGoomba View Post
no pics of where the sub is now, but this is the sound stage without the sub, you can see how little room I have. The towers are about 10 inches wide and I need to pull them away from both walls about a foot or so since they are bipolar.
How about laying the sub on its side below your screen? Check with Brian or Enrico first to make sure there is no heating issue with it.
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post #20354 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 10:19 AM
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^^^ When I had dual LV12R's I had them laying on their sides and never ran into any issues. I had checked with Brian I believe at the time and he said it was okay to do that.

Display - LG OLED
Receiver - Denon
Speakers - Klipsch
Subs - Rythmik
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post #20355 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by MrGoomba View Post
no pics of where the sub is now, but this is the sound stage without the sub, you can see how little room I have. The towers are about 10 inches wide and I need to pull them away from both walls about a foot or so since they are bipolar.
Are those home made diffusors?

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And a pair of Emotiva Airmotiv 5s
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post #20356 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 11:00 AM
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All our subwoofers with compact amplifiers (LV12R, L12, L22, F8 and FVX15) can be placed laying on their sides without any problem. But subwoofers with A370 and H600 series amps can get into heating issues when placed on their sides due the orientation of the heatsinks so we recommend to keep monitoring the back of the amp to check if the amplifier gets too warm. If the amplifier is not too warm then you can place the subwoofer on its side. Orientation does not affect sound quality, it does affect heating.



Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |

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post #20357 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
All our subwoofers with compact amplifiers (LV12R, L12, L22, F8 and FVX15) can be placed laying on their sides without any problem. But subwoofers with A370 and H600 series amps can get into heating issues when placed on their sides due the orientation of the heatsinks so we recommend to keep monitoring the back of the amp to check if the amplifier gets too warm. If the amplifier is not too warm then you can place the subwoofer on its side. Orientation does not affect sound quality, it does affect heating.
Interesting, I will have to see but still probably a bit tall and will cover bottom of screen. Regardless, i am happy with the sound at the back for now.
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post #20358 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 11:10 AM
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Are those home made diffusors?
Yup. Im sure they are not even close to what a purchased one would sound like, but they were budget friendly and I think they look great.

They are about 2ft wide by 3 or so ft tall. Just built my own frames and bought a huge reel of canvas to cover. Got some sound proof material from Home Depot which was much thicker than I anticipated, thus the reason the canvas bulges out (Good thing, I think it made them look great). Told the wife to get creative and paint something and thats how they turned out.
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post #20359 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 02:52 PM
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@Rythmik

Brian,

If you do come out with a bigger ported sub in the future have you thought about utilizing a slot port to combat any possible port noise at high volumes? I'll take two!

Display - LG OLED
Receiver - Denon
Speakers - Klipsch
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post #20360 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MrGoomba View Post
Yup. Im sure they are not even close to what a purchased one would sound like, but they were budget friendly and I think they look great.

They are about 2ft wide by 3 or so ft tall. Just built my own frames and bought a huge reel of canvas to cover. Got some sound proof material from Home Depot which was much thicker than I anticipated, thus the reason the canvas bulges out (Good thing, I think it made them look great). Told the wife to get creative and paint something and thats how they turned out.
Ahh, I thought they were sticking out because they were meant to be diffusors, but you made absorbers. I would think canvas is somewhat reflective? There is a thread here where people are having images custom printed onto acoustically transparent fabric. Not sure if you've seen it. When I'm not so busy I plan to build some myself.
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post #20361 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 10:29 PM
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To those who have expressed interest in, and have even asked Brian to offer, a subwoofer with an 18" driver, may I ask what it is you think an 18 will provide that a 15 doesn't? Yes, all else being equal, an 18 sets into motion more air molecules than does a 15 (due to it's larger radiating surface). But two 15's move more air than does a single 18, right? Why not just get an F25 (which has two 15's), or two F15's? But okay, let's go with the 18; What if the 18 is less sensitive/efficient than the 15 (which it most definitely WILL be)? It will then give up some output to the 15 if using the same amplifier---no gain! Brian would need to design, build, and install a larger amplifier in an 18" sub, therefore increasing it's price of course, perhaps to the equal of two F15's. I, personally, would rather have two F15's than a single F18. And that is assuming that all WILL be equal (see above). Will a Rythmik 18 driver have the sound QUALITY of the 15? It's cone's mass will be definitely be greater, and it will most likely be not as stiff as the 15. Will the increased output (with the extra power required to do so) be worth a loss (if any) in SQ?


There is the hardcore DIY segment of the subwoofer market that has embraced 18" models. Enthusiasts looking for the highest output at the lowest frequencies are putting the TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 woofer ($750 retail) into homemade 4cu.ft. and larger enclosures, and powering it with a pro audio 2,000-4,000 watt amp. There is also the required cross-over and filters, etc., that add to the cost. For those who don't know, the DIY crowd holds subwoofer shootouts, at which a group of subs are driven as loud as they will play, with movie sound effects and certain kinds of music (often the kind with double-kick drumsets and highly distorted electric guitar---what we used to call Speed Metal) as sound sources. The subs are played loud enough that participants must insert earplugs to protect their hearing. The participants then judge the subs with the plugs in their ears! Do you find that as funny as I do? Is everyone aware that out hearing mechanism, in an attempt to protect itself, have a means of "shutting itself down" after a certain length of high SPL is experienced? And that our response curve/sensitivity is then different than it was before the "shut down"? These shootouts are hours long, at extremely high SPL. Ear fatigue is real. The "monster" subs with TC Sounds driver and 4,000w amp have, of course, been found to provide the highest SPL at the lowest frequencies, and are, therefore, considered by this crowd to be the reigning Kings of subwoofers. The high-powered amp is required, by the way, because the LMS Ultra 5400 is an extremely insensitive/inefficient driver, so the power is not so much responsible for the sub's output, it is just required by the driver's electrical characteristics. The high output levels are actually possible because the Ultra 5400 has extremely long travel. These subs are what I call "brute force" designs: extremely inefficient, therefore extremely high-powered, with extreme output. Which raises the question: Just how much output do you need from a sub? Those of you wanting an 18" Rythmik: Why? Do the Rythmiks you have now not play loud enough, or low enough? Or are you just like a teenage boy, wanting the biggest, uh, car engine, at your High School? I'm just askin'!


But what of sound QUALITY? That's very subjective, isn't it? Everyone has his own idea of what low frequencies should sound like. From the sources used at these shootouts, and the terms used by the participants to describe what they hear, I have no idea what these monster subs would sound like in my system, with my music (my Rythmiks are in a music-only system). I have my sound sources, very different from theirs, and I use terminology to describe sound very different than do they. Rythmik subs have been present at some of these events, and I found it telling what were said about them. The output levels reached have been found to be respectable (amazing, considering what they're up against), but the listeners often don't quite know what to make of the Rythmik "sound". They are often described as being different than all the other subs, with less of a hearable, on their own, character, less "calling to attention" to themselves. These enthusiasts don't consider the ability of a sub to "disappear" to be an attribute, but a shortcoming! They listen for low-frequencies as a separate entity from the rest of the sound spectrum, and typically boost them way above "flat" response. Bass heads, as they say.


So, to those of you desiring an 18" sub, I wonder, are you sure you are really a Rythmik customer? I dislike the old phrase "Pearls before swine" (also the name of a late-60's Group on Reprise Records), finding it elitist, pompous, and condescending. But Rythmik's can be seen as being for those who require more than just lotsa bass from a sub. Like some refinement; the ability to distinguish between the low registers of a Steinway and a Bosendorfer piano, between a 300-year old upright hardwood bass and a modern plywood one, and between a bass drum with calfskin heads and plastic ones. Any ol' sub will pound out Metallica, if that's all you require.
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post #20362 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 10:48 PM
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^^ I agree with you. How about an FV25hp then?
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post #20363 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 11:05 PM
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Just as a 15" driver can do things a 12" can't, so too can an 18" do that which a 15" can't. It's definitely not a "teenage" thing either, not by a long stretch.

For some (most?) the F25 is simply too large. WAF plays a role for a lot of folks, so a sub with a single 18" driver could potentially be 60% of the F25's size while providing 80% of its capabilities. That could be very alluring for a lot of people. I absolutely think Rythmik should get into that market; with what Brian has accomplished with everything else, I suspect he would be able to create quite an impressive beast.
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post #20364 of 30889 Old 09-04-2015, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
Just as a 15" driver can do things a 12" can't, so too can an 18" do that which a 15" can't. It's definitely not a "teenage" thing either, not by a long stretch.

For some (most?) the F25 is simply too large. WAF plays a role for a lot of folks, so a sub with a single 18" driver could potentially be 60% of the F25's size while providing 80% of its capabilities. That could be very alluring for a lot of people. I absolutely think Rythmik should get into that market; with what Brian has accomplished with everything else, I suspect he would be able to create quite an impressive beast.
Once we grow up its called an Arms race Everyone else is doing it! One could go on and on but its by no means necessary for Rythmik to do so as there subs are already well regarded for SQ and output. While the WAF does indeed play a role , it stands to say if you can get away with a 15" sub then an F25 is no different than an 18" sub, at that point you can pretty much assume one has very accommodating spouse . Time will tell if this is a fad or not
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post #20365 of 30889 Old 09-05-2015, 05:34 AM
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If I sit in my internet direct subwoofer manufacturer armchair, I would say it would be prudent to be exploring the possibility of an 18" subwoofer design. However, just looking at it from an admittedly limited perspective on the marketplace conditions for internet direct subwoofers, I don't see why Rythmik would be compelled to design, manufacture, and distribute an 18" subwoofer. None of the ID subwoofer focused companies offer an 18". SVS, for example, doesn't even have a 15" and they seem to be doing just fine. That seems to indicate there hasn't been an incentive to offer a home application of an 18" sub given the proliferation of 18" drivers in the car audio market. For the home market, 12" subs seems to be the most attractive solution if Brian's comments about the LV12R are any indication.

It would be a pleasant surprise to have my armchair expectations be proven wrong though.

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post #20366 of 30889 Old 09-05-2015, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Once we grow up its called an Arms race Everyone else is doing it! One could go on and on but its by no means necessary for Rythmik to do so as there subs are already well regarded for SQ and output. While the WAF does indeed play a role , it stands to say if you can get away with a 15" sub then an F25 is no different than an 18" sub, at that point you can pretty much assume one has very accommodating spouse . Time will tell if this is a fad or not
An F25 and something with an 18" driver would always be different, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to convey. Perpetually associating it to maturity is ridiculous - there's no correlation whatsoever.

I'm finishing up the first draft of my XTZ Cinema Series review, and this system comes with a 4 foot tall sub that has three 12" drivers. Sitting not 5 feet from that is a JTR Captivator 1400, which is 2/3rd's the size and has an 18" driver. The Cap can do things the SUB3X12 simply can't, yet your comparison suggests the opposite would hold true. If Brian decides to dip his toes into the 18" market you can reasonably expect the same to occur, vis-a-vis the F25 and his 18" variant. To use a term from the auto world... there's no replacement for displacement.

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Last edited by JimWilson; 09-05-2015 at 07:29 AM.
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post #20367 of 30889 Old 09-05-2015, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
If I sit in my internet direct subwoofer manufacturer armchair, I would say it would be prudent to be exploring the possibility of an 18" subwoofer design. However, just looking at it from an admittedly limited perspective on the marketplace conditions for internet direct subwoofers, I don't see why Rythmik would be compelled to design, manufacture, and distribute an 18" subwoofer. None of the ID subwoofer focused companies offer an 18". SVS, for example, doesn't even have a 15" and they seem to be doing just fine. That seems to indicate there hasn't been an incentive to offer a home application of an 18" sub given the proliferation of 18" drivers in the car audio market. For the home market, 12" subs seems to be the most attractive solution if Brian's comments about the LV12R are any indication.

It would be a pleasant surprise to have my armchair expectations be proven wrong though.
What ID companies have you looked at? PSA, JTR, Funk Audio, Deep Sea Sound and RA all sell subwoofers with 18" drivers. Collectively they probably sell a lot of them. There is most definitely a market for the big guns. (Funk also sells units with 21" drivers while DSS has 24", so the 18's aren't even considered that large any longer)

You may be taking Brian's comments about the LV12R out of context. The reason Rythmik probably moves so many of them is because that's the best value in his line. It's a tremendous amount of subwoofer for a very reasonable price, and the community now knows that so it gets mentioned quite frequently.
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post #20368 of 30889 Old 09-05-2015, 07:47 AM
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There will always be a market for the "bigger is better" crowd. Some have legitimate need for greater displacement and such; others simply want the biggest ("boys with toys"). I think it would get harder to obtain clean sound as the cone size goes up; cone modes (distortion) gets harder to control and a servo can only do so much. You'd need a stiffer cone, probably leading to more mass and more power required to drive, and so forth. The box would need to be large, though EQ and servo helps with that and the drive issue.

Still, my foursome of little F12's offers about the same area as a couple of 18" subs, and four subs lets me better flatten my FR, so there! Besides, four is always better than two, right? There were also a number of papers way back when about the advantages of using multiple smaller drivers rather than a single larger one. Not the Bose approach, but rather front-firing large arrays. Audio had a nice article about building such a beast at one time.

The old HQD systems were still pretty cool and one I saw had an extra pair of Hartley's in the back corners (that would be four 24" woofers for you youngsters). A rotary would be pretty cool, too, but see earlier pictures of resulting impact on the house...

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post #20369 of 30889 Old 09-05-2015, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
What ID companies have you looked at? PSA, JTR, Funk Audio, Deep Sea Sound and RA all sell subwoofers with 18" drivers. Collectively they probably sell a lot of them. There is most definitely a market for the big guns. (Funk also sells units with 21" drivers while DSS has 24", so the 18's aren't even considered that large any longer)

You may be taking Brian's comments about the LV12R out of context. The reason Rythmik probably moves so many of them is because that's the best value in his line. It's a tremendous amount of subwoofer for a very reasonable price, and the community now knows that so it gets mentioned quite frequently.

Here is my sketch idea of an 18" model. Fixed tuning frequency as there is no need for a higher tuning frequency. The tuning frequency will be same as FV15HP one port (12hz) and there will be two 3-1/2" ports. The enclosure size will be 40% bigger, and the port length will be 40% longer. 900WRMS power.
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post #20370 of 30889 Old 09-05-2015, 08:26 AM
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^^ estimated price is? And output will be about +3db across the board over the fv15hp?
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f12g subwoofer , integra dtc 9.8 , lv12r , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub

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