Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 691 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 1240Likes
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-24-2015, 07:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JT78681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 2,810
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1038 Post(s)
Liked: 669
I lied I just checked and I'm running the regular Audyssey EQ not flat.

Display - Vizio M70‑C3
Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
JT78681 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-24-2015, 07:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
gadgtfreek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bama
Posts: 5,233
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 632 Post(s)
Liked: 1109
I tried both and I prefer the curve, not flat.

BDP-S6500
Model 5000
Klipsch RF-7II's / RC-64II
Dual Rythmik FV15HP's
gadgtfreek is offline  
Old 09-24-2015, 07:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Soulburner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,280
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I too find Dyn EQ a poor implementation.
Do you listen to music at -30 to -25?
Soulburner is offline  
Old 09-24-2015, 08:34 PM
T&N
Newbie
 
T&N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 0
After many weeks of research and a few e-mail exchanges with Enrico (who has been very responsive and helpful!) I'm ready to purchase a pair of 12” sealed Rythmik subs (L12s or F12s). I've learned a great deal reading this thread, so rather then pestering Enrico with yet another question (or two, or three....) I'd like to join the conversation here.

I'm setting up a dual purpose system. For dedicated two channel listening (my priority) I'll be using a McIntosh MAC-6700 receiver with a pair of PSB Stratus Silvers (-3db at 35Hz), or alternatively a pair of PSB Stratus Minis (-3db at 50Hz). For 5.2 HT I'll be using a newly purchased Denon AVR-4520ci (which I hope will live up to the performance and reliability standards established by it's still going strong, but a bit feature deficient predecessor, my AVR-4800). The MAC-6700 has a HT by-pass mode so it will power the front L&R speakers in all cases.

The set-up for HT seems pretty straight forward: LFE out of the AVR-4520ci to the LFE inputs of each subwoofer. For 2 channel it seems that using the MAC-6700's pre-outs to the subwoofer's Line level inputs is preferred.

I'm leaning towards a pair of the L12s because of their smaller form factor and outstanding value (this system set-up / update is part of a fairly extensive remodel project so there's competition for every dollar in the budget), but Enrico suggested seriously considering the F12s because of their enhanced feature set. So I've been looking at the differences and I have some questions:

- The F12 has a second LFE input. When might this be used? Is there any benefit to using this input instead of the line level inputs for 2 channel listening with the MAC-6700 if I were to incorporate an external crossover and, or external equalization in the future? Or do I achieve the same thing (i.e. an equally clean signal path) by using the line level inputs with the crossover set at the highest frequency and the delay / phase set at 0?

- The F12 has speaker level inputs. My prior subwoofer was a Rel, and Rel is very adamant that better performance will be achieved by using the speaker level inputs for 2 channel listening. Is this an option I might also prefer with Rythmik? The Rythmik instructions, and most of what I've read in this thread suggest that the answer is no (unless I'm running very long connections), but I wonder why two respected companies have very different suggestions. Perhaps Rel is using a different type of circuitry on their speaker level inputs?

- There are several differences oriented towards dialing the subs in (PEQ, enhanced bass extension flexibility, etc.). I think that I understand the benefit of these controls, but in all honesty I'm just not sure how much manual tinkering beyond optimizing the level of control afforded by the L12s I'll want to do, especially with two subs in the system. In addition I may very well end up using an external crossover (so I can high pass filter the main speakers) and some form of external equalization (I may be mistaken, but I believe proper timing requires external intervention that includes delaying the signal to the front L&R speakers, though I'm still unclear on the materiality of this). Any thoughts?

- The F12 also offers two different 24db roll off settings, 50Hz (“large” speakers) and 80Hz (“small” speakers). I'm missing something here. Isn't the point that the roll off begins determined by the crossover setting? What am I missing?

- Though common to both the L12 and the F12 I'm also wondering if the LPF slope selector is disabled when the LFE input is used?

- Is there anything I've overlooked?

I should also note that I'm aware the F12 has a different amp, a different driver, more output, and that it will play lower then the L12. The extra output isn't terribly important to me, but the enhanced low frequency response is a consideration.

In addition to comments on my questions I'd appreciate any other thoughts, or suggestions. As I said earlier I'm leaning towards the smaller form factor and lower cost of the L12s, but I want to be sure that's a thoroughly considered decision. I'd like to avoid wishing I'd gone with the F12s down the road because of performance, or connectivity options. Thanks in advance for any input.
T&N is offline  
Old 09-24-2015, 08:48 PM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 8,760
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1659 Post(s)
Liked: 667
wse is offline  
Old 09-24-2015, 09:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Soulburner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,280
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by T&N View Post
After many weeks of research and a few e-mail exchanges with Enrico (who has been very responsive and helpful!) I'm ready to purchase a pair of 12” sealed Rythmik subs (L12s or F12s). I've learned a great deal reading this thread, so rather then pestering Enrico with yet another question (or two, or three....) I'd like to join the conversation here.
No problem. I'll answer the questions I'm familiar with and leave the rest to the experts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T&N View Post
The F12 has a second LFE input. When might this be used? Is there any benefit to using this input instead of the line level inputs for 2 channel listening with the MAC-6700 if I were to incorporate an external crossover and, or external equalization in the future? Or do I achieve the same thing (i.e. an equally clean signal path) by using the line level inputs with the crossover set at the highest frequency and the delay / phase set at 0?
The second input could be used by a second system. Other than that, I can't think of a reason.

The advantage that the LFE method has is you will want to use it if you plan to cross above 80hz as the sub will roll off above that when using Line-in. Line-in also allows you to use the delay controls on the subs (which you shouldn't need).
Quote:
Originally Posted by T&N View Post
The F12 has speaker level inputs. My prior subwoofer was a Rel, and Rel is very adamant that better performance will be achieved by using the speaker level inputs for 2 channel listening. Is this an option I might also prefer with Rythmik? The Rythmik instructions, and most of what I've read in this thread suggest that the answer is no (unless I'm running very long connections), but I wonder why two respected companies have very different suggestions. Perhaps Rel is using a different type of circuitry on their speaker level inputs?
Some people might want to go this route for a "stereo bass" setup. The advantages are questionable, however. Well integrated subs are non-locatable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T&N View Post
There are several differences oriented towards dialing the subs in (PEQ, enhanced bass extension flexibility, etc.). I think that I understand the benefit of these controls, but in all honesty I'm just not sure how much manual tinkering beyond optimizing the level of control afforded by the L12s I'll want to do, especially with two subs in the system. In addition I may very well end up using an external crossover (so I can high pass filter the main speakers) and some form of external equalization (I may be mistaken, but I believe proper timing requires external intervention that includes delaying the signal to the front L&R speakers, though I'm still unclear on the materiality of this). Any thoughts?
Because your AVR has Audyssey XT32+SubEQ, you won't need any of that. If you take care of proper placement, the system will do a great job of EQing and aligning your speakers and subs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T&N View Post
The F12 also offers two different 24db roll off settings, 50Hz (“large” speakers) and 80Hz (“small” speakers). I'm missing something here. Isn't the point that the roll off begins determined by the crossover setting? What am I missing?
The setup guide will instruct you on which setting to use. For LFE from a receiver it's AVR/12. That's all I'm familiar with at this point.

Last edited by Soulburner; 09-25-2015 at 01:11 AM.
Soulburner is offline  
Old 09-24-2015, 09:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tvuong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1252 Post(s)
Liked: 673
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
Has any one used two of these ?

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F25.html

Thinking of selling my JLAudio F113
@rcohen has three or four of them
tvuong is online now  
Old 09-24-2015, 09:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rcohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,422
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 960 Post(s)
Liked: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
Has any one used two of these ?

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F25.html

Thinking of selling my JLAudio F113
I like 'em.
What do you want to know?
rcohen is online now  
Old 09-24-2015, 10:27 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Where is the setup guide you're referencing? What is it for?
Get it from Enricoclaudio, years ago. Plate amp setting. When you running calibration.
ltswee is offline  
Old 09-24-2015, 10:42 PM
T&N
Newbie
 
T&N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Thank you for the input Soulburner. A few comments / questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
The advantage that the LFE method has is you will want to use it if you plan to cross above 80hz as the sub will roll off above that when using Line-in. Line-in also allows you to use the delay controls on the subs (which you shouldn't need).
Good point. I don't think this will affect my current application, but having the additional LFE input will provide future versatility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Some people might want to go this route for a "stereo bass" setup. The advantages are questionable, however. Well integrated subs are non-locatable.
I don't think it's a stereo issue. A stereo bass setup can be achieved with the line level inputs also. Rel implies that it's a quality issue, but I'm confident that Rythmik is just as focused on quality reproduction, which makes me wonder why the two different approaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Because your AVR has Audyssey XT32+SubEQ, you won't need any of that. If you take care of proper placement, the system will do a great job of EQing and aligning your speakers and subs.
What about 2 channel use without the Audyssey system? How important, and used is the additional control offered by the F12 compared to the L12?
T&N is offline  
Old 09-24-2015, 11:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Soulburner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,280
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 368
I'm looking at the L12 amp now. If these pictures are showing all of the controls, there is no delay knob on the L12. That means if your subs are not going to be placed equidistant from you (not common unless they are placed that way for aesthetic reasons or if you have a perfectly symmetrical room - normally the subs will tell you where they should go and you might be surprised), you will need independent delay controls on each to align them for your listening position. Without a delay knob, you will need an external device. Some people find the miniDSP 2x4 handy and affordable for this task. Audyssey XT32+SubEQ will do this for you. I suppose it's going to be up to you how you configure your system with the two uses you envision. I like to keep my setup simple so I use my Denon X4000 for everything, though that might be changing if I decide to move to Dirac Live.

If they do indeed have a delay control, you'll want to use Line-in.

Other than that, you get a PEQ on the F12 which recently came in really handy for me. I needed to take a lot of energy out of the region that was causing a 15db peak at around 55-60Hz. I was able to do that and reduce it by about 8db. Audyssey leveled it the rest of the way like a champ. I didn't test it but I believe Audyssey has a limit and it wouldn't have been able to reduce the peak all 15db by itself, maybe 9-10db. The PEQ could come in really handy especially if you'll have no other EQ for your 2-channel setup. Though if you get a miniDSP 2x4 for the delays you'll end up with that ability there as well, plus much more (the sub PEQ is for just 1 frequency). This made me happy I chose the F12, as I originally thought it was overkill and liked the L12.

Or if you just use the AVR, Audyssey will do all of that for you, however without as much user adjustability. But in my opinion it does an excellent job.

So those are some things to consider as you work out your setup. To achieve parity, control wise, with the F12, the L12 will need a device like a miniDSP for the delays and EQ, then you're left with the high level inputs on the F12. The extension and damping controls are consolidated on the L12 so they offer a little less flexibility.

Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings)
Denon AVR-X4000
A little R&R: Reaction Audio CX-10 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
And a pair of Emotiva Airmotiv 5s

Last edited by Soulburner; 09-24-2015 at 11:19 PM.
Soulburner is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 12:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 8,439
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1260 Post(s)
Liked: 814
Quote:
Originally Posted by T&N View Post
After many weeks of research and a few e-mail exchanges with Enrico (who has been very responsive and helpful!) I'm ready to purchase a pair of 12” sealed Rythmik subs (L12s or F12s). I've learned a great deal reading this thread, so rather then pestering Enrico with yet another question (or two, or three....) I'd like to join the conversation here.
Soulburner did a good job. here are my quick comments (it's late).

Quote:
I'm setting up a dual purpose system. For dedicated two channel listening (my priority) I'll be using a McIntosh MAC-6700 receiver with a pair of PSB Stratus Silvers (-3db at 35Hz), or alternatively a pair of PSB Stratus Minis (-3db at 50Hz). For 5.2 HT I'll be using a newly purchased Denon AVR-4520ci (which I hope will live up to the performance and reliability standards established by it's still going strong, but a bit feature deficient predecessor, my AVR-4800). The MAC-6700 has a HT by-pass mode so it will power the front L&R speakers in all cases.

The set-up for HT seems pretty straight forward: LFE out of the AVR-4520ci to the LFE inputs of each subwoofer. For 2 channel it seems that using the MAC-6700's pre-outs to the subwoofer's Line level inputs is preferred.
If the MAC does not have bass management and adjustable delay you'll need to use the line inputs for the crossover and delay functions. The most critical part of adjusting delay is to match the phase of the mains (L/R speakers) at the crossover point. The phase of the mains is changing and the delay will not in general match the physical distance. It really helps to have measurement capability to get this right, but you can do a decent job by ear simply by playing a tone at the crossover frequency and adjusting the delay for the loudest combined SPL at the listening position. It is affected by room interaction and such so I have not found ears terribly reliable but it's a start.

Quote:
I'm leaning towards a pair of the L12s because of their smaller form factor and outstanding value (this system set-up / update is part of a fairly extensive remodel project so there's competition for every dollar in the budget), but Enrico suggested seriously considering the F12s because of their enhanced feature set. So I've been looking at the differences and I have some questions:
The F12's have higher performance (better sound), more features, and a hair more output. In addition to the PEQ they have more flexibility in tailoring the damping and extension for optimal sound in your system and room. With as much as you are planning to spend I would not skimp on the sub(s).

Quote:
- The F12 has a second LFE input. When might this be used? Is there any benefit to using this input instead of the line level inputs for 2 channel listening with the MAC-6700 if I were to incorporate an external crossover and, or external equalization in the future? Or do I achieve the same thing (i.e. an equally clean signal path) by using the line level inputs with the crossover set at the highest frequency and the delay / phase set at 0?
You can sum L+R inputs if you don't have a sub output, and if you use a Y adapter to put them in parallel from a single sub output, you get 6 dB more gain if you need it. I would expect that unlikely in most cases unless your preamp has very low output. If you use an external crossover you can use the LFE input to bypass the internal crossover, eliminating a gain stage in the sub's amplifier.

The LFE input has a hair higher noise floor due to its wider bandwidth. Unless I put my ear right at my sub I can't tell.

Quote:
- The F12 has speaker level inputs. My prior subwoofer was a Rel, and Rel is very adamant that better performance will be achieved by using the speaker level inputs for 2 channel listening. Is this an option I might also prefer with Rythmik? The Rythmik instructions, and most of what I've read in this thread suggest that the answer is no (unless I'm running very long connections), but I wonder why two respected companies have very different suggestions. Perhaps Rel is using a different type of circuitry on their speaker level inputs?
No idea about REL specifically, but in general speaker level inputs must be heavily attenuated to line level so you are going to have greater noise in the sub's input stages due to that attenuation. Also, since speaker outputs are loaded by speakers, in general the signal from the amp will be noisier and more distorted than that from the preamp outputs. I would have to read why REL says they are better; my experience is the opposite.

Quote:
- There are several differences oriented towards dialing the subs in (PEQ, enhanced bass extension flexibility, etc.). I think that I understand the benefit of these controls, but in all honesty I'm just not sure how much manual tinkering beyond optimizing the level of control afforded by the L12s I'll want to do, especially with two subs in the system. In addition I may very well end up using an external crossover (so I can high pass filter the main speakers) and some form of external equalization (I may be mistaken, but I believe proper timing requires external intervention that includes delaying the signal to the front L&R speakers, though I'm still unclear on the materiality of this). Any thoughts?
I have run my system with an external crossover until very recently. The speaker has its own crossover and resulting phase, and the sub may not be located at the same point as the main speaker (generally not), so having delay adjustment is critical. If you use an external crossover from the 4520's preamp outputs, Audyssey will handle the phase transition and you can run the crossover's LF output into the F12's LFE input. Otherwise you'll need to adjust the phase.

Main speakers are positioned for optimum imaging and in an HT system must coordinate with the picture. Subs are best placed in the room to counteract room modes and boundary reflections that cause large frequency ripples. Those are almost always different places. With two subs you can place them symmetrically as a stereo pair, or asymmetrically for much enhanced bass response. I ran stereo pairs for ages but have recently gone to mono and placed them to optimize LF response in my room. The difference is significant.

Almost everything (not all) is mixed to mono in the deep bass, and it is non-directional, so I do not miss stereo subs. There are cases where deep bass is actually stereo, and if it is out of phase you will get some cancellation. In practice I have not found that to be a problem, or even noticeable, on the music I have (classical, jazz, country, rock -- a bit of everything). Getting much smoother and deeper bass for the other 99.999999% is very noticeable.

Chances are you'll be like the vast majority and try a few settings but settle on one and never touch it again. I have had mine on 14 Hz and high damping from about day two and never looked back.

Quote:
- The F12 also offers two different 24db roll off settings, 50Hz (“large” speakers) and 80Hz (“small” speakers). I'm missing something here. Isn't the point that the roll off begins determined by the crossover setting? What am I missing?
I believe the 80/50 Hz selections are fixed, and the other setting uses the adjustable crossover. I have the older amp so am not sure on this.

Quote:
- Though common to both the L12 and the F12 I'm also wondering if the LPF slope selector is disabled when the LFE input is used?
Yes.

Quote:
- Is there anything I've overlooked?
Not sure if you have researched the advantages of the servo; they are significant. It is hard to describe but easy to hear. That is what created a sub that to me competes with the $3k to $5k crowd in sound quality. The PEQ is a nice touch and a feature I have used quite a bit even with room correction. And as already discussed having continuous phase control is critical for proper integration into a system without the ability to phase-(time-)align subs to mains, like a two-channel system without room correction.

Quote:
I should also note that I'm aware the F12 has a different amp, a different driver, more output, and that it will play lower then the L12. The extra output isn't terribly important to me, but the enhanced low frequency response is a consideration.

In addition to comments on my questions I'd appreciate any other thoughts, or suggestions. As I said earlier I'm leaning towards the smaller form factor and lower cost of the L12s, but I want to be sure that's a thoroughly considered decision. I'd like to avoid wishing I'd gone with the F12s down the road because of performance, or connectivity options. Thanks in advance for any input.
The sonic difference is probably not that great but noticeable to a careful listener, and the feature set is much richer with the F12's. I prefer to buy the best I can get the first time around so have F12's in my system. When I added subs, feature-wise I could have gone with the L12 (and saved some money), but Brian and Enrico were unanimous in feeling I would be better off with more F12's in my system (using Magnepan main speakers, very clean themselves). I spoke with Brian at length via phone and email before my original purchase, and both Brian and Enrico are aware of my tastes through a number of years' association, so I trust them. especially when my gut said the same thing; I saved for a couple of years until my wallet could agree with head and heart.

The one change I would have made was to get the XLR2 amplifiers since I now have fully-balanced preamp and crossover (though as mentioned above I have removed my external crossover). I do not really believe that balanced is audibly superior for the vast majority of home installations, including mine, but I have very long runs to my back subs and they are on a different circuit, so greater noise rejection and obviating ground loops is a Good Thing. Had I to do it over I would have started with the XLR2 amplifiers, but I do not think they were available when I got my first subs. I may swap the amps in my front pair at some point but am not strongly motivated.

HTH - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 02:42 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltswee View Post
At last i found this topic. I have been using Rythmik F12 for 2 years. Thanks to Enricoclaudio setup guide.
Been through subwoofer popping issue. Rectified by local asia distributor and Brian n co. Thanks. Great support.
Done sub-crawling, which work superb. Enjoying music n movie since then.

Recently replaced my fronts to Dyn Dm 3/7. (power amp support)
With the thinking to get better sound, my itchy finger reset AVR onkyo 809. Run Audyssey.
Ouchhh,,,,what the ? The feels is missing.

My findings, after Audyssey calibration. Unable get the good bass. Just the feel of sub hitting my body not the ears.

Anyway i still tuning avr setting and rythmik plate amp. Something is missing. OMG. lol....
Really hope you guys can give extra help. Thanks in advance.

Thanks everyone for suggestions and recommendation.
I reset avr onkyo 809 again, do a fresh audyssey calibration.
Tested 2 input, line in and LFE on plate amp. Finally go with LFE.
Get better bass that not pound on my body. LOL ...

AVR , LFE - 100hz ( how about bypass ? )
Dynamic eq - ON
Dynamic volume - off (just nice)
Sub plate amp, follow as PEQ3 installation guide.

For avr setting, i still fiddling around the crossover frequency for front, center and surround speaker.
So, any basic guide line for these setting ?

You guys rock,,,,
ltswee is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 08:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gadgtfreek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bama
Posts: 5,233
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 632 Post(s)
Liked: 1109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Do you listen to music at -30 to -25?

I dont ever listen to anything at that level. My point is, the reference offset is a poor way to implement because the average joe isn't going to use it or understand it. Yet, until recently Denon always had Dyn Eq on by default. If the consensus among users is it sounds poor unless you are in that range or at a lower volume and users should adjust the reference offset, maybe Denon engineers should have planned better on where they set that reference offset from the design phase. Why have a default feature that the user is then supposed to go in and figure out what is best?

All that being said, it sounds poor to me on TV programming at -30 with Dyn Eq on and a ref offset of 0. It's almost amusing, we have software (XT32) that tries to set everything at reference levels, but yet they enact a moving target Eq as default.

BDP-S6500
Model 5000
Klipsch RF-7II's / RC-64II
Dual Rythmik FV15HP's

Last edited by gadgtfreek; 09-25-2015 at 08:50 AM.
gadgtfreek is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 09:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,722
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 428 Post(s)
Liked: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
I'm looking at the L12 amp now. If these pictures are showing all of the controls, there is no delay knob on the L12. That means if your subs are not going to be placed equidistant from you (not common unless they are placed that way for aesthetic reasons or if you have a perfectly symmetrical room - normally the subs will tell you where they should go and you might be surprised), you will need independent delay controls on each to align them for your listening position. Without a delay knob, you will need an external device. Some people find the miniDSP 2x4 handy and affordable for this task. Audyssey XT32+SubEQ will do this for you. I suppose it's going to be up to you how you configure your system with the two uses you envision. I like to keep my setup simple so I use my Denon X4000 for everything, though that might be changing if I decide to move to Dirac Live.

If they do indeed have a delay control, you'll want to use Line-in.

Other than that, you get a PEQ on the F12 which recently came in really handy for me. I needed to take a lot of energy out of the region that was causing a 15db peak at around 55-60Hz. I was able to do that and reduce it by about 8db. Audyssey leveled it the rest of the way like a champ. I didn't test it but I believe Audyssey has a limit and it wouldn't have been able to reduce the peak all 15db by itself, maybe 9-10db. The PEQ could come in really handy especially if you'll have no other EQ for your 2-channel setup. Though if you get a miniDSP 2x4 for the delays you'll end up with that ability there as well, plus much more (the sub PEQ is for just 1 frequency). This made me happy I chose the F12, as I originally thought it was overkill and liked the L12.

Or if you just use the AVR, Audyssey will do all of that for you, however without as much user adjustability. But in my opinion it does an excellent job.

So those are some things to consider as you work out your setup. To achieve parity, control wise, with the F12, the L12 will need a device like a miniDSP for the delays and EQ, then you're left with the high level inputs on the F12. The extension and damping controls are consolidated on the L12 so they offer a little less flexibility.
All our subwoofers have delay/phase knob. The picture you see is cut. Here is the Quick Guide for the L12/L22 subwoofers:
Attached Files
File Type: pdf L12_L22_quickguide.pdf (150.1 KB, 24 views)

Best Regards,

Enrico Castagnetti
Rythmik Audio

 

My Multimedia Room Gallery

enricoclaudio is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 09:04 AM
T&N
Newbie
 
T&N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Thank you Soulburner and DonH50, I really appreciate the time and thought you put into your responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Other than that, you get a PEQ on the F12 which recently came in really handy for me. I needed to take a lot of energy out of the region that was causing a 15db peak at around 55-60Hz. I was able to do that and reduce it by about 8db. Audyssey leveled it the rest of the way like a champ. I didn't test it but I believe Audyssey has a limit and it wouldn't have been able to reduce the peak all 15db by itself, maybe 9-10db. The PEQ could come in really handy especially if you'll have no other EQ for your 2-channel setup. Though if you get a miniDSP 2x4 for the delays you'll end up with that ability there as well, plus much more (the sub PEQ is for just 1 frequency). This made me happy I chose the F12, as I originally thought it was overkill and liked the L12.
This is a really important point I had not considered. Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
The sonic difference is probably not that great but noticeable to a careful listener, and the feature set is much richer with the F12's. I prefer to buy the best I can get the first time around so have F12's in my system. When I added subs, feature-wise I could have gone with the L12 (and saved some money), but Brian and Enrico were unanimous in feeling I would be better off with more F12's in my system (using Magnepan main speakers, very clean themselves). I spoke with Brian at length via phone and email before my original purchase, and both Brian and Enrico are aware of my tastes through a number of years' association, so I trust them. especially when my gut said the same thing; I saved for a couple of years until my wallet could agree with head and heart.
Two things prompted me to post: I was pretty sure I was missing some important points (which I was), and I have had this nagging feeling that I should suck it up and get the F12s. Though I added the (used) MAC-6700 to my system as a reward for some hard earned upside discretionary funds, and I've swapped out a few dvd players until finally upgrading to an Oppo BDP-93 several years ago, I have been using the same the core system (A Denon AVR-4800, PSB Stratus speakers and a REL sub) for 15 years. I attribute this longevity (and corresponding cost savings in the grand scheme of things) to the thought process you've described. I'm glad you included this paragraph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
You can sum L+R inputs if you don't have a sub output, and if you use a Y adapter to put them in parallel from a single sub output, you get 6 dB more gain if you need it. I would expect that unlikely in most cases unless your preamp has very low output. If you use an external crossover you can use the LFE input to bypass the internal crossover, eliminating a gain stage in the sub's amplifier.... The LFE input has a hair higher noise floor due to its wider bandwidth. Unless I put my ear right at my sub I can't tell.
So if I were to use an external crossover with the MAC-6700 (which has pre-outs, but does not have a LFE output, or bass management) you would suggest using the LFE input to eliminate the sub amp's gain stage instead of the Line In input with it's slightly lower noise floor, correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Main speakers are positioned for optimum imaging and in an HT system must coordinate with the picture. Subs are best placed in the room to counteract room modes and boundary reflections that cause large frequency ripples. Those are almost always different places. With two subs you can place them symmetrically as a stereo pair, or asymmetrically for much enhanced bass response. I ran stereo pairs for ages but have recently gone to mono and placed them to optimize LF response in my room. The difference is significant.
This is good to know, sort of.... The room layout and function virtually requires both subs being placed on the front wall. A symmetrical placement will be preferred aesthetically, which may also be a virtual requirement if I'm to stay married. I'll be able to move them along the front wall (1/4 in from the side walls, 1/3 in, close to the corners, close to center, etc), to try and optimize their placement within the confines of my application, but it's likely the end result won't be truly optimal. We'll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Almost everything (not all) is mixed to mono in the deep bass, and it is non-directional, so I do not miss stereo subs. There are cases where deep bass is actually stereo, and if it is out of phase you will get some cancellation. In practice I have not found that to be a problem, or even noticeable, on the music I have (classical, jazz, country, rock -- a bit of everything). Getting much smoother and deeper bass for the other 99.999999% is very noticeable.
I understand. At first I wanted two subs so I could have stereo bass, but I've come to realize the true benefit is a smoother frequency response (all else being equal). Stereo bass may end up being a by product of my placement and connection decisions, but it won't be a driving factor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Not sure if you have researched the advantages of the servo; they are significant. It is hard to describe but easy to hear. That is what created a sub that to me competes with the $3k to $5k crowd in sound quality. The PEQ is a nice touch and a feature I have used quite a bit even with room correction. And as already discussed having continuous phase control is critical for proper integration into a system without the ability to phase-(time-)align subs to mains, like a two-channel system without room correction.
I have done quite a bit of research, and agree that the servo technology and internet direct business model are significant differentiators, and an excellent match to my 2 channel performance and value priorities. I'm also swayed by Enrico's responsiveness, and the value added quality of this thread. You and Soulburner have made a compelling case for having the PEQ function.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
The one change I would have made was to get the XLR2 amplifiers....
Again, thank you for including this comment. I'm not currently using balanced connections (the only balanced connection in my system is one balanced input on the MAC-6700), but future versatility is an important consideration.

Though I'd still welcome additional thoughts and comments, I've decided the F12s are the right choice for me. It's clear that their enhanced performance and feature set will likely be of value currently, and that they will be a little more versatile foundation piece for future upgrades down the road. I need to take a final look at the trade-offs associated with the XLR2 vs the PEQ3 amplifiers, prepare a "value" pitch for my wife and place my order!
T&N is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 09:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,722
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 428 Post(s)
Liked: 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by T&N View Post
Thank you Soulburner and DonH50, I really appreciate the time and thought you put into your responses.

This is a really important point I had not considered. Thank you!


Two things prompted me to post: I was pretty sure I was missing some important points (which I was), and I have had this nagging feeling that I should suck it up and get the F12s. Though I added the (used) MAC-6700 to my system as a reward for some hard earned upside discretionary funds, and I've swapped out a few dvd players until finally upgrading to an Oppo BDP-93 several years ago, I have been using the same the core system (A Denon AVR-4800, PSB Stratus speakers and a REL sub) for 15 years. I attribute this longevity (and corresponding cost savings in the grand scheme of things) to the thought process you've described. I'm glad you included this paragraph.


So if I were to use an external crossover with the MAC-6700 (which has pre-outs, but does not have a LFE output, or bass management) you would suggest using the LFE input to eliminate the sub amp's gain stage instead of the Line In input with it's slightly lower noise floor, correct?


This is good to know, sort of.... The room layout and function virtually requires both subs being placed on the front wall. A symmetrical placement will be preferred aesthetically, which may also be a virtual requirement if I'm to stay married. I'll be able to move them along the front wall (1/4 in from the side walls, 1/3 in, close to the corners, close to center, etc), to try and optimize their placement within the confines of my application, but it's likely the end result won't be truly optimal. We'll see.


I understand. At first I wanted two subs so I could have stereo bass, but I've come to realize the true benefit is a smoother frequency response (all else being equal). Stereo bass may end up being a by product of my placement and connection decisions, but it won't be a driving factor.


I have done quite a bit of research, and agree that the servo technology and internet direct business model are significant differentiators, and an excellent match to my 2 channel performance and value priorities. I'm also swayed by Enrico's responsiveness, and the value added quality of this thread. You and Soulburner have made a compelling case for having the PEQ function.


Again, thank you for including this comment. I'm not currently using balanced connections (the only balanced connection in my system is one balanced input on the MAC-6700), but future versatility is an important consideration.

Though I'd still welcome additional thoughts and comments, I've decided the F12s are the right choice for me. It's clear that their enhanced performance and feature set will likely be of value currently, and that they will be a little more versatile foundation piece for future upgrades down the road. I need to take a final look at the trade-offs associated with the XLR2 vs the PEQ3 amplifiers, prepare a "value" pitch for my wife and place my order!
Also know that you get 10% discount on the F12s if you buy pair

Best Regards,

Enrico Castagnetti
Rythmik Audio

 

My Multimedia Room Gallery

enricoclaudio is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 10:14 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 3
Lv12r.... Has anyone used this. I know it's entry level, but am I better off with this or SVS pb1000 for home theatre?

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
big70tom is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 10:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JT78681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 2,810
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1038 Post(s)
Liked: 669
Quote:
Originally Posted by big70tom View Post
Lv12r.... Has anyone used this. I know it's entry level, but am I better off with this or SVS pb1000 for home theatre?

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
LV12R hands down. You can't deny physics. Moderately sized 12" ported sub versus tiny 10" ported sub. Guess which one wins. I've owned the LV12R and it's a solid performer for it's price. I'm pretty sure at $600 or less it can't be beat.
Soulburner likes this.

Display - Vizio M70‑C3
Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
JT78681 is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 10:41 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bond 007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 14,394
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1285 Post(s)
Liked: 1337
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
LV12R hands down. You can't deny physics. Moderately sized 12" ported sub versus tiny 10" ported sub. Guess which one wins. I've owned the LV12R and it's a solid performer for it's price. I'm pretty sure at $600 or less it can't be beat.
Agreed.
Bond 007 is online now  
Old 09-25-2015, 10:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JimWilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Somewhere in New Joisey
Posts: 5,735
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 799 Post(s)
Liked: 956
Quote:
Originally Posted by big70tom View Post
Lv12r.... Has anyone used this. I know it's entry level, but am I better off with this or SVS pb1000 for home theatre?
Have you tried using the search function? With that you'll found there are countless owners of the LV12R on this forum. And the PB-1000 vs LV12R has been discussed many times, so you'll find a lot of info searching for that as well.
1MediaGuy likes this.

If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite
JimWilson is online now  
Old 09-25-2015, 11:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 8,439
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1260 Post(s)
Liked: 814
Quote:
Originally Posted by T&N View Post
Thank you Soulburner and DonH50, I really appreciate the time and thought you put into your responses.
<elided>
So if I were to use an external crossover with the MAC-6700 (which has pre-outs, but does not have a LFE output, or bass management) you would suggest using the LFE input to eliminate the sub amp's gain stage instead of the Line In input with it's slightly lower noise floor, correct?
<rest elided>
If you are using the 4520's Audyssey program with the MAC-6700 then you can use the LFE input after the external crossover. If not, using the LFE input may be OK, but in general you will need to adjust the phase of the subwoofer(s) relative to the main speakers so will need to use the AVR input. Set the crossover frequency to max in that case so it does not interfere with your external crossover. That is the way I had mine set up. I still have the crossover setting in my console in case I go back but I like having one less thing to deal with (really need to join tweakaholics anonymous ).

I think you'll be happy with the F12's!

HTH - Don

p.s. There are several articles on optimal subwoofer placement on the Harmon site, and if you download REW you can also play with its room calculator to get an idea how the response changes with subwoofer position.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 11:37 AM
Advanced Member
 
AlexanderDelarg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Omaha
Posts: 926
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by big70tom View Post
Lv12r.... Has anyone used this. I know it's entry level, but am I better off with this or SVS pb1000 for home theatre?

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
LV12R is the one you want. It is the best sub out there for under $600.00.
1MediaGuy likes this.

Epson Pro Cinema 6030 | OPPO BDP - 103 | Pioneer Elite VSX 70 | Definitive Technology PM 1000 (L/R) | PC 2000 (C) | SR8040BP's (7.1) | Rythmik LV12R | Carada Criterion Brilliant White 118" | URC MX 780 & MRF 350 | ATS Acoustic Panels | Sanus AV Rack | DirecTv | Roku 2 | Monoprice 12AWG |
AlexanderDelarg is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 11:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 9,952
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1248 Post(s)
Liked: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderDelarg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by big70tom View Post
Lv12r.... Has anyone used this. I know it's entry level, but am I better off with this or SVS pb1000 for home theatre?

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk
LV12R is the one you want. It is the best sub out there for under $600.00.
+1, I recently did a similar comparison and the LV12R came out on top. I haven't ordered yet, but that's only because I'm waiting to get it right around my birthday. Plus gives me a little time to familiarize myself with my MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced, which I'll be using to eq the sub.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 12:25 PM
wse
AVS Special Member
 
wse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 8,760
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1659 Post(s)
Liked: 667
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I like 'em. What do you want to know?
How do they perform with music and how do they compare with JL Audio F113?
wse is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 12:37 PM
Member
 
1MediaGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
Have you tried using the search function? With that you'll found there are countless owners of the LV12R on this forum. And the PB-1000 vs LV12R has been discussed many times, so you'll find a lot of info searching for that as well.
To further add to this... The PB-1000 isn't even in the same ballpark as the LV12R. As an ex-owner of both the LV12R and the PB-2000, you will enjoy the LV12R just fine. There's very little to no noticeable difference between the two and you'll save a few hundred $$. And the customer service and attentiveness from the guys at Rythmik is second to none. I know I was a pestering pain in the rear with my emails and questions and they never failed to respond extremely quick. I even sent an email one late Sunday night expecting a reply sometime during "business hours" the following day and I received an email within an hour! BTW, I am glad I upgraded to the FV15HP.... All I can say is WOW.
JT78681 likes this.

∙·Sony VPL-HW40ESDenon x2100wEnergy RC-70Energy RC-LCREnergy RC-10Rythmik FV15HP·∙
1MediaGuy is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 12:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Soulburner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,280
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I dont ever listen to anything at that level. My point is, the reference offset is a poor way to implement because the average joe isn't going to use it or understand it. Yet, until recently Denon always had Dyn Eq on by default. If the consensus among users is it sounds poor unless you are in that range or at a lower volume and users should adjust the reference offset, maybe Denon engineers should have planned better on where they set that reference offset from the design phase. Why have a default feature that the user is then supposed to go in and figure out what is best?

All that being said, it sounds poor to me on TV programming at -30 with Dyn Eq on and a ref offset of 0. It's almost amusing, we have software (XT32) that tries to set everything at reference levels, but yet they enact a moving target Eq as default.
The point of Dynamic EQ is loudness compensation and yes, that does depend on the volume. It does nothing at -0 on the AVR, and does more the lower the volume goes, hence the name. It's because the human ear doesn't work like a target curve. We hear differently based on frequency and volume, and Dynamic EQ adjusts for this. For example without it, bass that you dialed in to be perfect at -0 MV, would be very weak as you lower the volume. It keeps your EQ in balance at lower volumes.

The reference level offset was implemented (as I read it) due to the differences between a home listening room and a theater.

Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings)
Denon AVR-X4000
A little R&R: Reaction Audio CX-10 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
And a pair of Emotiva Airmotiv 5s
Soulburner is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 01:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tvuong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,433
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1252 Post(s)
Liked: 673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
For example without it, bass that you dialed in to be perfect at -0 MV, would be very weak as you lower the volume. It keeps your EQ in balance at lower volumes.
Agree. 99.9% of the time, my MV is at -15, I use REW to measure my FR with Dyneq on and off at this volume to see how much bass is boosted. It is about 6db in my case with Dyneq on. So I turn it off and add 6db to my trims which was already 3db hot and it is perfect bass all the time without potential of messing up other channels by dyneq. This way I keep the bass constantly at 6db or 9db hot regarding of my listening volume level. My front and surrounds seem to have bigger space and clearer sound with this while keeping my bass just right. The fact that I have a lowshelf filter on bass below 60hz helps with how I feel the bass when content has low bass frequency. Try and let us know. YMMV.
Soulburner likes this.
tvuong is online now  
Old 09-25-2015, 01:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JT78681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 2,810
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1038 Post(s)
Liked: 669
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Agree. 99.9% of the time, my MV is at -15, I use REW to measure my FR with Dyneq on and off at this volume to see how much bass is boosted. It is about 6db in my case with Dyneq on. So I turn it off and add 6db to my trims which was already 3db hot and it is perfect bass all the time without potential of messing up other channels by dyneq. This way I keep the bass constantly at 6db or 9db hot regarding of my listening volume level. My front and surrounds seem to have bigger space and clearer sound with this while keeping my bass just right. The fact that I have a lowshelf filter on bass below 60hz helps with how I feel the bass when content has low bass frequency. Try and let us know. YMMV.
You have me contemplating the idea of possibly introducing a Minidsp into the chain, so that I can add a low shelf filter too. Is this difficult to tackle?

Display - Vizio M70‑C3
Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
JT78681 is offline  
Old 09-25-2015, 01:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Soulburner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,280
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Agree. 99.9% of the time, my MV is at -15, I use REW to measure my FR with Dyneq on and off at this volume to see how much bass is boosted. It is about 6db in my case with Dyneq on. So I turn it off and add 6db to my trims which was already 3db hot and it is perfect bass all the time without potential of messing up other channels by dyneq. This way I keep the bass constantly at 6db or 9db hot regarding of my listening volume level. My front and surrounds seem to have bigger space and clearer sound with this while keeping my bass just right. The fact that I have a lowshelf filter on bass below 60hz helps with how I feel the bass when content has low bass frequency. Try and let us know. YMMV.
That sounds like a good approach. That way you're calibrated for your listening level.

One thing to keep in mind though is that it also lifts the treble region a little for intelligibility at lower volumes. So it's more than just a bass boost. And I doubt it's equivalent to a simple +6db across the range. They are probably adjusting the curve a bit. What did your measurements reveal?

Last edited by Soulburner; 09-25-2015 at 02:26 PM.
Soulburner is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 

Tags
f12g subwoofer , lv12r , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off