Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 712 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21331 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Berg View Post
I prefer the accuracy of sealed subs, and the placement flexibility (room correction) of 2x smaller subs vs 1x larger sub.

So it seems like the best choices are L22 or F15HP. They have about the same output capability. Yet the L22 is way cheaper!

Besides the extra space required**, are there any sonic tradeoffs? I don't have a good intuition for the pro/con of paper drivers. (my mains are very large, so covering the 80-120Hz region as with F15G's paper option is not a concern)

**can the dual driver models (L22 / F25) be placed horizontally?
Yes, those subs can be placed horizontally. At low frequencies, it doesn't cause the kind of interference problems that you get with normal speakers.

I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but 2 drivers in a single unit has no advantage over a single driver in terms of fixing room modes. You need a separate unit with separate placement to accomplish that. Multiple drivers only provides more output than a single driver. Specifically, doubling the driver area and doubling the power (a second amp for the second driver) gives about 6db more output.
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post #21332 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but 2 drivers in a single unit has no advantage over a single driver in terms of fixing room modes. You need a separate unit with separate placement to accomplish that. Multiple drivers only provides more output than a single driver. Specifically, doubling the driver area and doubling the power (a second amp for the second driver) gives about 6db more output.
I understand the physics. I don't understand the business model Specifically, F15HP vs L22.

What makes the single-driver cabinet more expensive? Why should anyone pay 50% more for a sub with 28% less cone area?

Maybe this isn't a fair comparison -- can't assume "all else being equal" -- but it's unclear what those inequalities are.
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post #21333 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 07:08 AM
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I will have to get it up a flight of stairs. Also, the best place in the room, as measured, for a subwoofer is in particular sport that without moving major furniture, I would need to be able to lift the subwoofer above my waist to walk to the spot.

If I get one, I plan to buy it in person. I will make sure I can handle it as needed before buying. I am driving about 125-150 miles each way to get one, so I want to explore the idea before driving there in case it turned out that I could not handle it as I will need to do and then it would turn out to be a wasted trip.
I was able to easily get mine up the stairs with no help. I simply kept it in the box and toppled it up the staircase end over end. I also had a corner to turn that was pretty easy. The box is big and the unit weighs a little over 100lbs but pushing it over was a breeze.

However, I would recommend someone helping you.

∙·Sony VPL-HW40ESDenon x2100wEnergy RC-70Energy RC-LCREnergy RC-10Rythmik FV15HP·∙
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post #21334 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Berg View Post
I understand the physics. I don't understand the business model Specifically, F15HP vs L22.

What makes the single-driver cabinet more expensive? Why should anyone pay 50% more for a sub with 28% less cone area?

Maybe this isn't a fair comparison -- can't assume "all else being equal" -- but it's unclear what those inequalities are.
Gotcha. I don't know.
The web site describes the L22 as "entry" level, and it has a different amp and different drivers, but the specs do look similar, don't they?
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post #21335 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 08:47 AM
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Regarding all those (ditto related) posts, I need to point out that I asked about separate frequency and damping controls not because I wanted to buy a premium Rythmik sub or upgraded amp (if even possible) nor because I wasn't satisfied with the single combined control on my LV12R.

I asked a technical question because I was curious about how damping and frequency response are related.

So, getting replies that either told me to get 1 or 2 FV15HPs or to not worry about such things and just enjoy my LV12R were to me not helpful to me as the only reason I asked the question was for a clear, direct, straightforward answer.

And I greatly thank those who did directly answer it, including a few Rythmik sub owners and of course, Brian.

However, as a future (polite) suggestion, if I ask a technical or academic question, I'm asking because I want to know the exact (or close enough answer), not because I'm looking to make a purchase/upgrade or because I'm dissatisfied with what I presently have. Hope this clarifies what I'm trying to achieve when I ask such questions.

And I don't consider it over thinking things... I just have a very technical, analytical mind.
This isnt the first time or first thread that you have gotten that sort of response. Think about it.
I have thought about it but let's just say my conclusion is very different from what I believe you have in mind. That's all I'll say as I don't want to offend anyone.
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post #21336 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 09:16 AM
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I have thought about it but let's just say my conclusion is very different from what I believe you have in mind. That's all I'll say as I don't want to offend anyone.
Understood.
Although this is a tech forum many of the questions are of a practical nature. Questions that require a lot of technical explanation and an engineering degree to understand arent for the most part practical.
As Ive told you before there is an Audio Theory part in AVS. With such a technical and analytical mind as yours you would be right at home there (just dont ask them the best way to open the subwoofer box or take the grill off).
Don has a good point. Perhaps you should pursue an engineering degree to satisfy your mind.
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post #21337 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 10:12 AM
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I have thought about it but let's just say my conclusion is very different from what I believe you have in mind. That's all I'll say as I don't want to offend anyone.
Understood.
Although this is a tech forum many of the questions are of a practical nature. Questions that require a lot of technical explanation and an engineering degree to understand arent for the most part practical.
As Ive told you before there is an Audio Theory part in AVS. With such a technical and analytical mind as yours you would be right at home there (just dont ask them the best way to open the subwoofer box or take the grill off).
Don has a good point. Perhaps you should pursue an engineering degree to satisfy your mind.
I was going to edit my post to say that I agree there is better place for such technical questions (to avoid cluttering an owners thread which is better suited to more general and setup based questions).

So, I agree with that. Oddly enough, I did study electrical engineering for a year before switching to a business degree. I guess my interest in such things falls somewhere between general user and engineer.
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post #21338 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 11:14 AM
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To understand audio, one doesn't need a degree in electronics or related field. Physics till A levels is enough. Maths also does give a helping hand.
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post #21339 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 11:17 AM
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To understand audio, one doesn't need a degree in electronics or related field. Physics till A levels is enough. Maths also does give a helping hand.
That depends on how well you want to understand it.
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post #21340 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 11:21 AM
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I'd suggest that psychoacoustics (loudness curves, localization, masking) are even more important.
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post #21341 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 01:05 PM
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That depends on how well you want to understand it.
Enough to get things going the way they must and not should. Engineer I am, though not in electronics.
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post #21342 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 01:27 PM
 
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I finally tested out my Dual FV15HP.. these things rock and shake the house.. (mad max fury road) was first movie i tested... we have glass figurines in the curio cabinet; they almost tipped over
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post #21343 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 02:54 PM
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I finally tested out my Dual FV15HP.. these things rock and shake the house.. (mad max fury road) was first movie i tested... we have glass figurines in the curio cabinet; they almost tipped over
Dual FV15HP's? I predict a short life for those figurines...
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post #21344 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 03:03 PM
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Almost? I suggest +3dB.

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post #21345 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 03:19 PM
 
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I have it set at 0DB right now... I couldn't imagine 3DB during mad max fury road..
these subs are monsters.
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post #21346 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 06:17 PM
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That depends on how well you want to understand it.
+1. You don't need an engineering degree for a basic understand that will help immensely in understanding how things work and what things don't.

OTOH, my grad acoustics class started with wave equations and multi-dimensional integral-differential calculus. The good stuff was at the back of the book, after all the high-level theory. Prereqs included advanced EM classes, physics courses, and transmission line theory in addition to an undergrad degree.

FWIW, Brain Ding (the man behind Rythmik) has a PhD in EE.
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post #21347 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Berg View Post
I understand the physics. I don't understand the business model Specifically, F15HP vs L22.

What makes the single-driver cabinet more expensive? Why should anyone pay 50% more for a sub with 28% less cone area?

Maybe this isn't a fair comparison -- can't assume "all else being equal" -- but it's unclear what those inequalities are.
I'd also be interested if someone would like to chime-in about the sonic differences between the F15HP vs L22.

Or between the L22 and F12, which are about the same price as each other.
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post #21348 of 30888 Old 11-05-2015, 09:11 PM
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Chances are nobody has had both subs to compare (except for Brian and Enrico). The differences are largely in the better drivers (speakers) and amplifiers (more features, different amplifier topology) in the higher-priced units. I suspect sonic differences, especially with a servo design, are subtle. There is also form factor to consider, natch.
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post #21349 of 30888 Old 11-06-2015, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by meli View Post
I'd also be interested if someone would like to chime-in about the sonic differences between the F15HP vs L22.

Or between the L22 and F12, which are about the same price as each other.

If there is any sonic difference between theses subs, they are poorly designed. The difference should only be in their playback capabilities (output, extension, FR, -3dB point) not in the sonic signature.
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post #21350 of 30888 Old 11-06-2015, 05:05 AM
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If there is any sonic difference between theses subs, they are poorly designed. The difference should only be in their playback capabilities (output, extension, FR, -3dB point) not in the sonic signature.
Thanks. That would then bring us back to the other posters' comments; how to justify (from a marketing position, if nothing else) the large price discrepancy between the F15HP and the L22 when they measure so similarly.
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post #21351 of 30888 Old 11-06-2015, 05:13 AM
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Don't forget the finishes. They do add value even if it's not audibly functional.

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post #21352 of 30888 Old 11-06-2015, 05:53 AM
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Thanks. That would then bring us back to the other posters' comments; how to justify (from a marketing position, if nothing else) the large price discrepancy between the F15HP and the L22 when they measure so similarly.
This has been debated before; look back through posts or search the thread. Features and form factor were the main reasons IIRC. The drivers and amplifiers cost more. Not sure why the debate, nor why Brian needs to justify them to us; if you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em!
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post #21353 of 30888 Old 11-06-2015, 06:31 AM
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This has been debated before; look back through posts or search the thread. Features and form factor were the main reasons IIRC. The drivers and amplifiers cost more. Not sure why the debate, nor why Brian needs to justify them to us; if you don't like 'em, don't buy 'em!
I'm not sure I'd call it a debate. More like a friendly discussion (hence the term discussion board). If nothing else, it's interesting from a marketing perspective, how to market two subs that measure similarly but are priced differently. I'm sure appearance, such as the finish, does account for some of the difference, but that pitch is not obvious from their web site. So perhaps there are other differences I'm not aware of.
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post #21354 of 30888 Old 11-06-2015, 06:35 AM
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Drivers (speakers) are different.
Amplifiers are different.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #21355 of 30888 Old 11-06-2015, 07:23 AM
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Im considering the purchase of a used Rythmik. Does anyone know If I am correct in that there 3 year amp coverage and 5 year driver. And that the warranty is transferable?

Thanks
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post #21356 of 30888 Old 11-06-2015, 08:10 AM
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I was in the market last week for a new set of powered monitors for my Pro Tools 12 + Logic Pro X rig. After I decided for the Apogee Duet for Mac because the ESS Sabre32 DAC then the search for the right monitors started....All came down to Focal vs Dynaudio. I was between Focal CMS 65 and Dynaudio BM6 MKIII. I put Focal out of the contest and decided for Dynaudio but before to pull the trigger on the BM6 MKIII I started to look at the BM5 MKIII. The difference between the two models is basically on the amp. The BM6 MKIII amp is Class AB and the BM5 MKIII is Class D. Both speakers have the same drivers but there is a price difference of $180 per speaker. Knowing the differences between Class D and Class AB amps I decided to go with the BM5 MKIII and save that money. Glad I did it because after further inspection I noticed that the BM6 MKIII only have one XLR input while the BM5 MKIII has XLR (balanced) and RCA (unbalanced). Also the cabinet on the BM6 MKIII is bigger so it won't fit on my desktop. The BM5 MKIII sounds Amazing btw, and I'm really happy with my purchase...

Now why I'm telling this story to you guys, well in my case the decision was based on connectivity options and speaker size because knowing that there will be not too much difference in sound quality between the two amps the sound quality part was not a concern. Now back to subwoofers, we have the same dilemma between the F15HP and the L22 and between the F12 and L12. I think Brian mentioned this several times before: sound quality wise the F15HP and the L22 are pretty close, so close that you can match them in the same room. Same thing for the F12 and the L12. So at the end everything boils down to speaker size, finishes available, connectivity option and of course money. For the L22 and L12 there are NO amplifier upgrades (no XLR, no speaker level inputs), no PEQ and no Piano Black finish. Also we won't offer the L12 nor the L22 as CI Kits. While the L22 has the same output at 20Hz as the F15HP the L22 only goes down to 18Hz while the F15HP goes down to 14Hz. Same thing for the L12 and F12 but also the F12 has +1dB more output at 20Hz compared to the L12.

Here is a comparison chart that I made to help see the differences between the models discussed:

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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |

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post #21357 of 30888 Old 11-06-2015, 08:22 AM
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I was in the market last week for a new set of powered monitors for my Pro Tools 12 + Logic Pro X rig. After I decided for the Apogee Duet for Mac because the ESS Sabre32 DAC then the search for the right monitors started....All came down to Focal vs Dynaudio. I was between Focal CMS 65 and Dynaudio BM6 MKIII. I put Focal out of the contest and decided for Dynaudio but before to pull the trigger on the BM6 MKIII I started to look at the BM5 MKIII. The difference between the two models is basically on the amp. The BM6 MKIII amp is Class AB and the BM5 MKIII is Class D. Both speakers have the same drivers but there is a price difference of $180 per speaker. Knowing the differences between Class D and Class AB amps I decided to go with the BM5 MKIII and save that money. Glad I did it because after further inspection I noticed that the BM6 MKIII only have one XLR input while the BM5 MKIII has XLR (balanced) and RCA (unbalanced). Also the cabinet on the BM6 MKIII is bigger so it won't fit on my desktop. The BM5 MKIII sounds Amazing btw, and I'm really happy with my purchase...

Now why I'm telling this story to you guys, well in my case the decision was based on connectivity options and speaker size because knowing that there will be not to much difference in sound quality between the two amps the sound quality part was not a concern. Now back to subwoofers, we have the same dilemma between the F15HP and the L22 and between the F12 and L12. I think Brian mentioned this several times before: sound quality wise the F15HP and the L22 are pretty close, so close that you can match them in the same room. Same thing for the F12 and the L12. So at the end everything boils down to speaker size, finishes available, connectivity option and of course money. For the L22 and L12 there are NO amplifier upgrades (no XLR, no speaker level inputs), no PEQ and no Piano Black finish. Also we won't offer the L12 nor the L22 as CI Kits. While the L22 has the same output at 20Hz as the F15HP the L22 only goes down to 18Hz while the F15HP goes down to 14Hz. Same thing for the L12 and F12 but also the F12 has +1dB more output at 20Hz compared to the L12.

Here is a comparison chart that I made to help see the differences between the models discussed:


This is a very timely post for me since I just sent Rythmik a message regarding a used out of amp warranty F12 versus a new L12. So if im reading this post right -forgetting looks and connectivity options and a negligible size differential -- aside from the PEQ, there would not be a great gap/gulf in real world sound between and F12 and L12. And particularly the case for a mostly music system where slightly higher output is not a concern?
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post #21358 of 30888 Old 11-06-2015, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by meli View Post
I'd also be interested if someone would like to chime-in about the sonic differences between the F15HP vs L22.

Or between the L22 and F12, which are about the same price as each other.
I spoke to Brian last night. Differences are:
  • Paper drivers in the L22 are lighter, so "faster". I assume this means less power is required for a given excursion amplitude. So the servo mechanism should have more headroom to respond/correct the waveform, as long as you're not near max SPL.
  • Aluminum drivers in the F-series are stiffer, considerably less prone to breakup / distortion near max SPL.
  • F15HP amp has PEQ, L22 does not.
  • Overall, he recommends the F15HP if you are extra picky about accuracy, or if you need to blend in with a 2-channel music system that lacks PEQ, or if the L22 is too large.
  • I specifically asked if the performance differences would disappear at lower volumes. He said yes, when not operating near max SPL, you'd need fancy instrumentation to tell a difference.
  • I also asked if the L22 could be placed horizontally, to mitigate the size issue. He said that would be fine, sonically.

I won't be pushing these subs to their limit (I find >100dB is more "uncomfortable" than "exciting"), so the L22 seems like the obvious choice.
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post #21359 of 30888 Old 11-06-2015, 08:49 AM
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Id be more curious as to why someone would get the F8 instead of the L22 for the same price.
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post #21360 of 30888 Old 11-06-2015, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
While the L22 has the same output at 20Hz as the F15HP the L22 only goes down to 18Hz while the F15HP goes down to 14Hz.
Here are the frequency/phase charts for both subs with max damping enabled (Q = 0.5)





Nothing that can't be fixed by adding a 2nd L22

(seriously, it's only a bit more expensive than a single F15HP, while also smoothing out in-room response)
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f12g subwoofer , integra dtc 9.8 , lv12r , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub

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