Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 715 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21421 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
We will have a new model LVX12 priced between LV12R and FVX15. The model has been delayed. But we will have 4 of them in 3 weeks and more to come at the end of the year. Bruce Watson has been waiting for this model for a long time.


LVX12 uses a similar design of FVX15 except the driver is paper cone. That means it has 2 tuning modes: 20hz and 14hz. More information will be available.
What will the price point of the LVX12 be?
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post #21422 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
We will have a new model LVX12 priced between LV12R and FVX15. The model has been delayed. But we will have 4 of them in 3 weeks and more to come at the end of the year. Bruce Watson has been waiting for this model for a long time.


LVX12 uses a similar design of FVX15 except the driver is paper cone. That means it has 2 tuning modes: 20hz and 14hz. More information will be available.


One thing customer should note is port diameter size impacts tuning frequency negatively. Those subs claim low extension and yet use large diameter port is like doing magic. A simple math is that if diameter is 10% larger, then the extension will be 10% higher (not lower) if the enclsoure size and port length does not change. If we want to have longer port, that means the enclosure needs to be deeper. That is what LVX12 will have.


LV12R is a good compromise between the enclsoure depth and port size. The additional max SPL output from LVX12 is not large (2 db at most), so is the PB2000. So some customers just go with LV12R to save money.
So, even though the PB2000 has capacity for more output, it may not transfer into anything more purposeful? Meaning, if the PB2000 is 2db more at most, that doesn't seem signifacnt enough to cough over the extra $230. And, how does it's frequency reponse play into that? I read the LV12R drops off significantly at 20hz.
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post #21423 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
So, even though the PB2000 has capacity for more output, it may not transfer into anything more purposeful? Meaning, if the PB2000 is 2db more at most, that doesn't seem signifacnt enough to cough over the extra $230. And, how does it's frequency reponse play into that? I read the LV12R drops off significantly at 20hz.
Remember the Rythmiks all have at least 3 extension/damping settings that affect rolloff under f3 point and overall sound quality. For example, high is very fast and clean with little to no ringing based on room acoustics. Mid is punchier but a bit slower and some ringing. Low is very punchy but has more pronounced ringing (in my room) and has a built-in delay to create a 'full body' sound.

Not sure if the SVS has anything of the sort, maybe someone can clarify.
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post #21424 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
What will the price point of the LVX12 be?
Halfway between $600 and $1000 I imagine
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post #21425 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 11:34 AM
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I think if you look at SVS's own PB2000 chart, then it seems more equivalent than it does "a little extra" as implied by how they wrote their +/- 3dB spec. That is just IMO and I have not directly experienced a PB2000 so I can't infer how that translates qualitatively under other operating conditions. At this point, you just have to decide if you want to go through the trouble of sending it back and having a Rythmik shipped to you in order to save a few bucks.

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Last edited by 12B4A; 11-09-2015 at 11:38 AM.
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post #21426 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
just for clarity, is the LV12R 300W RMS or 350W RMS?
300 W output, 350 W input (class D amps).

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post #21427 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
We will have a new model LVX12 priced between LV12R and FVX15. The model has been delayed. But we will have 4 of them in 3 weeks and more to come at the end of the year. Bruce Watson has been waiting for this model for a long time.


LVX12 uses a similar design of FVX15 except the driver is paper cone. That means it has 2 tuning modes: 20hz and 14hz. More information will be available.


One thing customer should note is port diameter size impacts tuning frequency negatively. Those subs claim low extension and yet use large diameter port is like doing magic. A simple math is that if diameter is 10% larger, then the extension will be 10% higher (not lower) if the enclsoure size and port length does not change. If we want to have longer port, that means the enclosure needs to be deeper. That is what LVX12 will have.


LV12R is a good compromise between the enclsoure depth and port size. The additional max SPL output from LVX12 is not large (2 db at most), so is the PB2000. So some customers just go with LV12R to save money.
I thought the driver on the LV12-R is paper cone already?
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post #21428 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 01:48 PM
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^^ it is.
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post #21429 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
I think if you look at SVS's own PB2000 chart, then it seems more equivalent than it does "a little extra" as implied by how they wrote their +/- 3dB spec. That is just IMO and I have not directly experienced a PB2000 so I can't infer how that translates qualitatively under other operating conditions. At this point, you just have to decide if you want to go through the trouble of sending it back and having a Rythmik shipped to you in order to save a few bucks.
Can you clarify what you mean by that? Are you saying that perhaps despite the PB 2000 having more output that the graph doesn't necessarily mean it equates to real life situations? And that the Rythmik can compete with it?
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post #21430 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Remember the Rythmiks all have at least 3 extension/damping settings that affect rolloff under f3 point and overall sound quality. For example, high is very fast and clean with little to no ringing based on room acoustics. Mid is punchier but a bit slower and some ringing. Low is very punchy but has more pronounced ringing (in my room) and has a built-in delay to create a 'full body' sound.

Not sure if the SVS has anything of the sort, maybe someone can clarify.
You'll have to speak in layman's terms for me here. Do you mean the settings change how the bass sounds?
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post #21431 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 03:41 PM
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awesome and macho looking system! Thanks for sharing.

I'm on a F15HP and loving it. I'm wondering if I should go for a 2nd F15HP (my room size is abt 4100 cubic feet) =)
Definitely. Though I bought them as a pair, the 2nd F12 makes a huge difference in bass quality in my 4300cu ft room due to flattening the response and raising output.
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post #21432 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
You'll have to speak in layman's terms for me here. Do you mean the settings change how the bass sounds?
Any damping, extension, or frequency controls on the PB-2000 that effect the low end response?

(30Hz and under)
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post #21433 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by checker9 View Post
PB2000 is probably 2dB higher output and goes a deeper (~15Hz vs ~17hz in room.) The LV12R is probably better value for price, but with the longer warranty and more output, the PB-2000 would be better if within your budget. Then for a little more, you could explore even more output and extension in the 15 inch subwoofers.
One thing that's really being overlooked is the servo. It is what makes a Rythmik what it is, and will mean that the subs won't sound the same. Even if all else were equal, I picked Rythmik for the servo. Just my thoughts.
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post #21434 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 04:31 PM
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One thing that's really being overlooked is the servo. It is what makes a Rythmik what it is, and will mean that the subs won't sound the same. Even if all else were equal, I picked Rythmik for the servo. Just my thoughts.
Great point, can't believe I forgot to mention that
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post #21435 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 04:31 PM
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One thing that's really being overlooked is the servo. It is what makes a Rythmik what it is, and will mean that the subs won't sound the same. Even if all else were equal, I picked Rythmik for the servo. Just my thoughts.
Do you have the LV12R?
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post #21436 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 04:32 PM
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Do you have the LV12R?
I think he has a premium model but I have one. Got it in early October.
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post #21437 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 04:57 PM
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I think he has a premium model but I have one. Got it in early October.
And your thoughts? Happy with the purchase? What's the size of your room? Can you "feel" the bass when watching movies? Not just a rumble in the room, but where you can physically feel it?
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post #21438 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 05:52 PM
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And your thoughts? Happy with the purchase? What's the size of your room? Can you "feel" the bass when watching movies? Not just a rumble in the room, but where you can physically feel it?
Quite happy... couldn't expect more.

Room under 1200 cubic feet so very small. I can feel deep bass at times but that's because I listen at moderate volumes often 30 or more dB under reference level. Again not a chest thump at my listening levels but the peaks in movies like San Andreas or Mad Max Fury Road have tactile bass.
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post #21439 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 06:08 PM
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It's really going to depend on your room. Basement concrete, forget about it. Floor boards, expect some great rumble. The larger the room and/or the farther you sit from your sub, less rumble. I think all Rythmik subs except maybe the smallest ones are capable of low frequency rumble, with the largest ones hitting the hardest, of course.

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post #21440 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 07:04 PM
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Can you clarify what you mean by that? Are you saying that perhaps despite the PB 2000 having more output that the graph doesn't necessarily mean it equates to real life situations? And that the Rythmik can compete with it?
Judging from their graph (and if I try to eyeball logarithmically), 17hz looks to be 9-10dB down from peak level at 23-24hz. I am sure there is some explanation for +/-3dB 17-260hz spec rating but it certainly is not valid to conclude the PB2000 "has more output" or extension when their own graph indicates something else.

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post #21441 of 22767 Old 11-09-2015, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
One thing that's really being overlooked is the servo. It is what makes a Rythmik what it is, and will mean that the subs won't sound the same. Even if all else were equal, I picked Rythmik for the servo. Just my thoughts.
+1 for the servo too, that's what makes the Rythmik more musical and have faster cone recovery.

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comparing 20hz output is pointless. Are you going to sit in your room and just play 20hz test tones all evening? Down low in the 16-30hz I would give the PB2000 a 3db advantage, in the 40-80hz, I would not be surprised if the LV12 was equal or even a little ahead of the PB2000.

It has been mentioned several times in the past that the LV12 is a nice upgrade over the PB1000, So I would put it in-between the 1000 & 2000 far as all out performance is concerned.
+1 too with basshead. Those small difference in numbers may not mean everything.

Suggest we just get the subs that have good reviews, sit back and enjoy it. My guess is we won't go wrong with either, and dont worry about small difference in numbers.

I've changed many subs in my own room and tested them for myself. My experience and impressions is that as long as u go with the brands and models that are in the recommended list and have fairly good reviews, it will be a good choice.

Last edited by sevenz; 11-10-2015 at 12:00 AM.
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post #21442 of 22767 Old 11-10-2015, 06:55 AM
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Questions on Using E15HP with Parasound P5

Hey all, I posted a question about subs for Acoustat Model 3 speakers. They are large electrostatic panels with bass down to <32 Hz, and flat to around 40. However, I do get what panel enthusiasts know as "panel slap" down to somewhere between 60 and 80 Hz. This is more on tones, but I think I have occasionally heard it on music.


Most of the respondents pointed me towards Rythmik, either E or F15HP. Sealed will integrate better with the panels, I believe. There is one user on my thread who is having good luck with an SVS PB-13 Ultra.


I am between one of the two sealed 15" Rythmiks and the SVS. My biggest concern with the Rythmik is the lack of flexibility of setup. I can only use it with the bass management of my Parasound P5, which is rather rudimentary compared to even a basic AVR. This is a two channel only system though, and I don't think I want to try to find an AVR that can drive the big 'stats.


With the SVS I can choose between using my P5's bass management or running dual stereo interconnects in and a second set out using the sub's onboard crossover. This setup also allows me to delay the mains, which I believe gives me more placement flexibility. The phase control on the Rythmik can only delay the bass arrival times, correct? So I can only engage that if the sub is closer to my listening position than the mains, right?


With the Rythmik I have to use the P5's sub out. This can either be run full range or with low pass activated. If full range I would engage the high pass filter from the P5 to run the panels with a 12 dB/octave slope crossover, and use the low pass in the Rythmik. Another option, I believe, would be to run the low pass filter out to the sub, and I can add another 12 dB/octave filter at the sub side to give me a fourth order crossover to the sub, matched with a second order crossover to the mains. Am I right that this is possible?


Initially I thought I would go for an 80 Hz crossover point, to completely eliminate panel slap, even on tones. However, I am concerned that point might be too high and give me integration problems. Is the onboard crossover on the Rythmik flexible enough that if I want to use it to give me a 60 Hz crossover point I can? I have to admit the biggest weakness with Rythmik is their guidelines, which are not clear. Maybe having the sub and actually playing around would make it more clear.


I'll close with my thoughts on options I'd like to explore with the Rythmik in combination with the P5:


High pass only from the P5, at 80 Hz, crossover the sub using the onboard xover, also at 80 Hz. 12 dB/Octave for both.


Same but at 60 Hz.


Crossover the sub with a combination of the low pass from the P5 with the Rythmik, 24 dB/Octave for the sub, 12 dB/Octave for the mains. Try both with 80Hz and 60Hz.


Are there other options I am not considering, or things I misunderstand about the capabilities of the onboard crossovers? (I am sure there are a few.)
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post #21443 of 22767 Old 11-10-2015, 08:26 AM
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So, even though the PB2000 has capacity for more output, it may not transfer into anything more purposeful? Meaning, if the PB2000 is 2db more at most, that doesn't seem signifacnt enough to cough over the extra $230. And, how does it's frequency reponse play into that? I read the LV12R drops off significantly at 20hz.
Sound quality is the largest difference between our subs vs SVS or other nonservo subs. One of our customer compared our F25 with SVS PB2000. I know these two are different type of subwoofers, but he pointed out one thing. The SVS is very "chatty" even in music and F25 is very quiet and only show its presence when the special effects call for it. For me, that speaks for the highest level of integration. Some customers like their subs constantly remind them of their presence. That is not what our subs are designed for. Our subs are designed to fully integrated into the system so that customers hear the sound as if it is from a full range speaker system. We should only feel the presence of subwoofer when the walls start shaking.

Next is the SPL and frequency response. Designing a ported sub is more difficult than designing a sealed sub. All of today's ported subs need built-in EQ to extend flat to low frequency point. It is a struggle with driver parameters and enclosure design, and once those are set, the engineers need to work with the so-called "native" frequency response and start doing EQ. It is a complicated. Sometimes the native EQ has Q value as high as 1.1. There is no simple EQ that can correct this type of problem in production because drivers exhibit unit-to-unit variation. An EQ that is valid for driver batch A is not valid for batch B. A lot of time, it end up with roll-off that is just too early (or high in frequency) or frequency response with a bump at the lower end, which translates to ringing at time domain and boominess in sound quality. Servo feedback has a way to changing the driver parameters without physically changing them. This gives us a distinct advantage that we don't need built-in EQ to get to low extension. It just naturally achieves that goal. As a result, customers can be assured that they get the maximum extension out of that enclosure box. I believe I have a customer in the review web page mention LV12R goes just as deep as PB2000. Hope this gives you a better overall picture.
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Last edited by Rythmik; 11-10-2015 at 09:47 AM.
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post #21444 of 22767 Old 11-10-2015, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
Sound quality is the largest difference between our subs vs SVS or other nonservo subs. One of our customer compared our F25 with SVS PB2000. I know these two are different type of subwoofers, but he pointed out one thing. The SVS is very "chatty" even in music and F25 is very quiet and only show its presence when the special effects call for it. For me, that speaks for the level of highest integration. Some customers like their subs constantly remind them of their presence. That is not what our subs are designed for. Our subs are designed to fully integrated into the system so that customers hear the sound as if it is from a full range speaker system. We should only feel the presence of subwoofer when the walls start shaking.

Next is the SPL and frequency response. Designing a ported sub is more difficult than designing a sealed sub. All of today's ported subs need built-in EQ to extend flat to low frequency point. It is a struggle with driver parameters and enclosure design, and once those are set, the engineers need to work with the so-called "native" frequency response and start doing EQ. It is a complicated. Sometimes the native EQ has Q value as high as 1.1. There is no simple EQ that can correct this type of problem in production because drivers exhibit unit-to-unit variation. An EQ that is valid for driver batch A is not valid for batch B. A lot of time, it end up with roll-off that is just too early (or high in frequency) or frequency response with a bump at the lower end, which translates to ringing at time domain and boominess in sound quality. Servo feedback has a way to changing the driver parameters without physically changing them. This gives us a distinct advantage that we don't need built-in EQ to get to low extension. It just naturally achieves that goal. As a result, customers can be assured that they get the maximum extension out of that enclosure box. I believe I have a customer in the review web page mention LV12R goes just as deep as PB2000. Hope this gives you a better overall picture.
Great post... when I got my LV12R back in early October I knew something about this sub was very different from any sub I had heard before and in a very good way... However, I wasn't able to describe exactly how to this level of detail or accuracy and so I recommend anyone who doesn't have a Rythmik and is considering one should carefully read this post as it makes some very important points that go beyond the usual frequency response/output/extension concerns.
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post #21445 of 22767 Old 11-10-2015, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by davidbeinct View Post
Hey all, I posted a question about subs for Acoustat Model 3 speakers. They are large electrostatic panels with bass down to <32 Hz, and flat to around 40. However, I do get what panel enthusiasts know as "panel slap" down to somewhere between 60 and 80 Hz. This is more on tones, but I think I have occasionally heard it on music.


Most of the respondents pointed me towards Rythmik, either E or F15HP. Sealed will integrate better with the panels, I believe. There is one user on my thread who is having good luck with an SVS PB-13 Ultra.


I am between one of the two sealed 15" Rythmiks and the SVS. My biggest concern with the Rythmik is the lack of flexibility of setup. I can only use it with the bass management of my Parasound P5, which is rather rudimentary compared to even a basic AVR. This is a two channel only system though, and I don't think I want to try to find an AVR that can drive the big 'stats.

With the SVS I can choose between using my P5's bass management or running dual stereo interconnects in and a second set out using the sub's onboard crossover. This setup also allows me to delay the mains, which I believe gives me more placement flexibility. The phase control on the Rythmik can only delay the bass arrival times, correct? So I can only engage that if the sub is closer to my listening position than the mains, right?
Delay time is not just to adjust the distance difference, it is also used to account for the phase difference at the crossover point between HPF and LPF. For instance, your usage model is different from a bookshelf sealed model which starts to roll-off at say 70hz. So even though the same 12db/oct filter is used on front speaker, your Acoustat is only 12db/oct roll-off, and a sealed model will have 24db/oct and yet a ported front speakers will have 36db/oct. This is because yours is flat down to 30hz. A bookshelf sealed and ported front speaker have 12db/oct and 24db/oct roll-off already without any additional HPF. With different type of front speakers, we already have different phase difference at the crossover point.

Your P5's bass managment should be sufficient. I assume the HPF is a 12db/oct. As for the LPF on the sub, I recommend to use the control on our sub. I do recommend to keep the signal path going to Acoustat as simple as possible.

Quote:
With the Rythmik I have to use the P5's sub out. This can either be run full range or with low pass activated. If full range I would engage the high pass filter from the P5 to run the panels with a 12 dB/octave slope crossover, and use the low pass in the Rythmik. Another option, I believe, would be to run the low pass filter out to the sub, and I can add another 12 dB/octave filter at the sub side to give me a fourth order crossover to the sub, matched with a second order crossover to the mains. Am I right that this is possible?
No, if you set the LPF at 24/80hz position, or 24/50hz position, you already get 24db/oct roll-off on the sub. You don't need to add any additional filter on the sub side.


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Initially I thought I would go for an 80 Hz crossover point, to completely eliminate panel slap, even on tones. However, I am concerned that point might be too high and give me integration problems. Is the onboard crossover on the Rythmik flexible enough that if I want to use it to give me a 60 Hz crossover point I can? I have to admit the biggest weakness with Rythmik is their guidelines, which are not clear. Maybe having the sub and actually playing around would make it more clear.

If you meant literally panel slap, then what you need is the filtering bass signal from the Acoustat because the excursion increases by 8x when the frequency goes down by 2x for panel speakers. In comparison, sealed speakers only go up by 4x. So your idea of crossing over at 80hz or 60hz (using P5's HPF) is a sound one.


I recommend place sub close the panels to get more continous imaging result.
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post #21446 of 22767 Old 11-10-2015, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Hey folks. I will be upgrading my sub in the near future and wanted to hear some thoughts. I currently am auditioning the SVS PB2000 in my home and it's pretty nice. Quick specs are frequency down to 17hz, 500RMS, 1100 max output. The price is $799 and I am thinking this is out of my budget. The LV12R, however, is within my price range. I'm curious how much I would be losing going with the Rythmik sub. I know the LV12R hits 19hz with 300RMS (not sure of max output) so not as powerful as an amp as the SVS sub. Just not sure if it's a moot point considering my room. It's 12x21 with 7 foot ceilings. Any thoughts people could provide would be great. It will mostly be used for home theater. Thanks!
I've personally owned both the LV12R and the PB2000. For the price I would save your money and get the LV12R. But if you crave more bass (and you will!) you should step up to a 15" and get the FV15HP.. you will not regret it! If you think it's too much, it's not. If you don't have enough money, save.

If you still are deciding between the two then it basically comes down to looks or if you want a port in front or back. The SVS has the port in the front so I was able to push it to the wall, the LVR has the port in the back so I had to leave a 6" gap between it and the wall. If you want the SVS then keep checking the open box items and save yourself some money that way.

Hope this helps.

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post #21447 of 22767 Old 11-10-2015, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
So, even though the PB2000 has capacity for more output, it may not transfer into anything more purposeful? Meaning, if the PB2000 is 2db more at most, that doesn't seem signifacnt enough to cough over the extra $230. And, how does it's frequency reponse play into that? I read the LV12R drops off significantly at 20hz.
I doubt the PB2000 is 2db more. I tested the two side by side (PB2000 vs LV12R) and I tried to tell the two apart and I could not. I tried at low volume, mid, and high. I tried with music, movies, action scenes... no noticeable difference.

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post #21448 of 22767 Old 11-10-2015, 11:10 AM
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^^ nice room but you need another FV to the front right corner. My room is a bit smaller (19x14) and I have 2 FV's. It is much smoother across the entire room with two beside more output and your room will look better with 2 subs too.
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post #21449 of 22767 Old 11-10-2015, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by davidbeinct View Post
Hey all, I posted a question about subs for Acoustat Model 3 speakers. They are large electrostatic panels with bass down to <32 Hz, and flat to around 40. However, I do get what panel enthusiasts know as "panel slap" down to somewhere between 60 and 80 Hz. This is more on tones, but I think I have occasionally heard it on music.

I am between one of the two sealed 15" Rythmiks and the SVS. My biggest concern with the Rythmik is the lack of flexibility of setup. I can only use it with the bass management of my Parasound P5, which is rather rudimentary compared to even a basic AVR. This is a two channel only system though, and I don't think I want to try to find an AVR that can drive the big 'stats.
Like Brian mentioned first thing you have to do is avoid any unnecessary DSP going to your Acoustat speakers using the SVS on board DSP. The P5 bass management is all you need and it's all analog so there is no processing on the signal going into your speakers. That's what I love the most about my Parasound P5...

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post #21450 of 22767 Old 11-10-2015, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 1MediaGuy View Post
I've personally owned both the LV12R and the PB2000. For the price I would save your money and get the LV12R. But if you crave more bass (and you will!) you should step up to a 15" and get the FV15HP.. you will not regret it! If you think it's too much, it's not. If you don't have enough money, save.

If you still are deciding between the two then it basically comes down to looks or if you want a port in front or back. The SVS has the port in the front so I was able to push it to the wall, the LVR has the port in the back so I had to leave a 6" gap between it and the wall. If you want the SVS then keep checking the open box items and save yourself some money that way.

Hope this helps.
You only need 3-4 inches from the wall for LV12R. And that info is directly from Enrico.

I have mine midwall 4 inches from the wall with no issues.
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