Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 721 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21601 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Shydow View Post
But unless something goes awry, I should be placing my order for a piano black FV15HP by mid-week
Congrats!
When you get it, please post a good picture of it.
I haven't seen any photos online that do them justice.
It seems like people always use a flash from the front and it makes the grill look too transparent.
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post #21602 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
People just pull answers out of their ass to be honest, when it comes to the midbass range.
+1
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post #21603 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
People just pull answers out of their ass to be honest, when it comes to the midbass range.

I like this chart because I somewhat agree with it.

You have the bass range, the mid range, and the high range, which can be broken out.

What is Mid Bass Range ?

Regardless, the concept means little to me when setting up a system. Once you find a xover that works between your sub, mains and center, it is what it is. If you mains and center are underpowered in the "bass" range above where the sub can work, only solution is better speakers. My speakers cross at 80hz, but the subs are pretty flat to 100hz where they then roll off because it isnt a brick wall. My fronts roll down to about 60hz, which is more than fine for them.
So, mid bass is 50Hz to 100Hz. Which is where the higher crossovers have more output in my system.

However, more output doesn't always mean better sound quality. Probably why 100Hz crossover sounds better than 120Hz even though the latter has more mid bass than the former.

Anyhow, is upper bass 100Hz to 300Hz?

And low bass 20Hz to 50Hz?
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post #21604 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Congrats!
When you get it, please post a good picture of it.
I haven't seen any photos online that do them justice.
It seems like people always use a flash from the front and it makes the grill look too transparent.
I'll definitely give it a go! The Galaxy S6 snaps some pretty dang good photos, so hopefully it'll do it some justice.
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post #21605 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Just pick a top corner and use your fingernails to gently pull one corner party loose... then do the same with the other top corner until the top of grill is detached... next, gently pull the lower corners straight out from the front of the sub.

The key is to move each corner loose before completely pulling it off that corner... so that the pins and sockets don't bend too much. Putting it back on should follow a similar approach. And FYI, the pins/sockets are in the four corners of the front of the sub.
Thank you. This seemed like what I should do but it seemed pretty tight, so I was reluctant to proceed. Will give it another shot =)
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post #21606 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Anyhow, is upper bass 100Hz to 300Hz?

And low bass 20Hz to 50Hz?
And what is ULF?
Im not going to get a moments rest until I get an absolutely definitive answer that can be proven beyond a doubt.
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post #21607 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Congrats!
When you get it, please post a good picture of it.
I haven't seen any photos online that do them justice.
It seems like people always use a flash from the front and it makes the grill look too transparent.
Best bet is to take it outside or put it near a brightly lit window.
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post #21608 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Anyhow, is upper bass 100Hz to 300Hz?

And low bass 20Hz to 50Hz?
And what is ULF?
Im not going to get a moments rest until I get an absolutely definitive answer that can be proven beyond a doubt.
The link didn't open right on my phone, but on my laptop I saw:

Low bass is under 50Hz
Mid bass is 50Hz to 100Hz
Upper bass is 100Hz to 180Hz

ULF is likely under 30Hz, though just a guess

(And I know you're being sarcastic, but I like to be able to put a frequency range to terms like mid bass as it allows me to better understand what it means and what is coming out of what speakers/drivers. It also puts more meaning to 15Hz to 300Hz measures in REW.

Stuff like 180Hz to 300Hz is lower midrange, not upper bass.)
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post #21609 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 01:09 PM
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Hi,

I'm considering an F12SE or E15HP for a ~2500 ft^3 room. Now I'm just wondering if the main difference between these two is that the E15HP will be able to achieve higher SPL at lower frequencies? Or are there any other quality aspects, like the E15HP being "faster" because it has an 600W amp instead of 370W for the F12SE?
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post #21610 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 01:44 PM
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^

Just more output with the F15, and a glossy finish on the F12SE. Why this specific comparison, may I ask?
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post #21611 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
^

Just more output with the F15, and a glossy finish on the F12SE. Why this specific comparison, may I ask?
Well, it's just two Rythmik subwoofers I'm considering, so I'd like to know the difference between those two when used in a room of my size. I'm hoping the F12SE will be sufficient for my needs if not played too loud, since I think the F15 is borderline too big for me. But I don't want to give up on other "sound quality aspects" than the ability to play loud if going with the F12SE. That's why I wondered if the F15 had any other benefits.
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post #21612 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 02:00 PM
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The reason it's an odd comparison is because the SE signifies a special finish. Most people would look at F12 vs F15, then decide if they want to spend extra for a different finish like gloss black.
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post #21613 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
The reason it's an odd comparison is because the SE signifies a special finish. Most people would look at F12 vs F15, then decide if they want to spend extra for a different finish like gloss black.
Ok, I see. Well you can disregard the finish then, and just look that the audio performance.

The reason I mentioned F12SE, is that if I'll get an F12 I prefer glossy black. That's all.

Based on that, what's your comment to my original question?
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post #21614 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 02:50 PM
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F15 will just have more output. They will both have the same sound quality. And both are very good choices as far as subs go.

Do you know how loud you'll want to listen? My pair of F12s can do 100 +/-3db from 15-80hz in a 4300 cu ft room that is open to the rest of the house if that gives an idea. If that's not enough, go with one of the 15" models.

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post #21615 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 03:16 PM
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Pair of F12 for sale on this thread over at HTS.

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post #21616 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 05:07 PM
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Went back to 80Hz crossover and simply cranked up sw trim to compensate. It seems each 10Hz step from 120Hz to 80Hz resulted in cleaner, clearer, more tight and precise bass. 120Hz and 110Hz were quite bad sounding, whereas 100Hz and 90Hz were a lot better but still noticeably off.
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post #21617 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Went back to 80Hz crossover and simply cranked up sw trim to compensate. It seems each 10Hz step from 120Hz to 80Hz resulted in cleaner, clearer, more tight and precise bass. 120Hz and 110Hz were quite bad sounding, whereas 100Hz and 90Hz were a lot better but still noticeably off.
Interesting. Same exact thing I did. But I'm still wanting to try 100hz with a steeper rolloff though because I suspect it's the 150hz and up sounds that I'm objecting to. If your crossover is set to 120hz, one octave above that is 240hz!

It will take some extra hardware and I'll have to think through how to connect it. I'm thinking I'll have to run the speakers as Large in the AVR, but if I want bass management to happen before Audyssey XT32, it will need to go before the AVR. Not sure how that will all work. Needs more research.

Last edited by Soulburner; 11-17-2015 at 05:58 PM.
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post #21618 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Went back to 80Hz crossover and simply cranked up sw trim to compensate. It seems each 10Hz step from 120Hz to 80Hz resulted in cleaner, clearer, more tight and precise bass. 120Hz and 110Hz were quite bad sounding, whereas 100Hz and 90Hz were a lot better but still noticeably off.
What was the deal discussed earlier about Line In only playing up to 80 or something like that? Wonder if that has anything to do with it.
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post #21619 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
Well, it's just two Rythmik subwoofers I'm considering, so I'd like to know the difference between those two when used in a room of my size. I'm hoping the F12SE will be sufficient for my needs if not played too loud, since I think the F15 is borderline too big for me. But I don't want to give up on other "sound quality aspects" than the ability to play loud if going with the F12SE. That's why I wondered if the F15 had any other benefits.
What about the E15HP instead? It's a bit smaller than the F yet it gives up almost nothing in output and extension.

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post #21620 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 05:52 PM
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What was the deal discussed earlier about Line In only playing up to 80 or something like that? Wonder if that has anything to do with it.
Well he did measure well up to 100. My thinking is that if the crossover between speakers and subs is only 12db or 24db per octave, and you're playing 100db at 80hz through the sub, it's also going to put out 88 or 76 db at 160hz. If your crossover is 120hz, you're only 12-24db down by 240hz (not accounting for natural rolloff of the sub's ability). I think we need to try much steeper rolloffs, especially as I'm using LFE and thus don't have the loss of output like he does.

Last edited by Soulburner; 11-17-2015 at 06:00 PM.
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post #21621 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 08:05 PM
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Rythmik is actually Brian Ding, the owner/engineer behind the company itself. He doesn't push people in a specific direction so his advise will be geared toward what works best for you. Same as mine, and in this case my suggestion would be... FV15HP.

Given your current situation you may not need all it's capable of, but that 'excess' ability does have a benefit (it's often referred to as "head room", which allows the sub to handle the huge dynamic variations in a lot of movie soundtracks). You're also not likely to outgrow it, even if your next room is fairly large. If it proves to be too powerful for you now simply turn it down some and that will tame the beast, as it were. The FV15HP is both clean and powerful, with really no downside. Not that the E/F15HP aren't, it's just that the FV takes things to a different level.
Thanks for the information, Jim. I totally understand the thinking, and that's what got me into this predicament in the first place! (thinking to myself) "Just buy the biggest and best I can, and if I can't use all of the sub now, that's ok because it's there for when I want it"

So does the FV15HP buck the trend of sealed subs having cleaner low extension than ported? My thinking now is if I won't be using the output a ported sub is capable of, then maybe I should lean towards a sealed sub with better low extension? I'm sure I'm over thinking this and I should just get the FV15HP and be done with it- but you know AVS-ers... paralysis by analysis!
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post #21622 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by adeszko View Post
Thanks for the information, Jim. I totally understand the thinking, and that's what got me into this predicament in the first place! (thinking to myself) "Just buy the biggest and best I can, and if I can't use all of the sub now, that's ok because it's there for when I want it"

So does the FV15HP buck the trend of sealed subs having cleaner low extension than ported? My thinking now is if I won't be using the output a ported sub is capable of, then maybe I should lean towards a sealed sub with better low extension? I'm sure I'm over thinking this and I should just get the FV15HP and be done with it- but you know AVS-ers... paralysis by analysis!

Don't drive yourself crazy (I speak from experience ;-)! The F15HP (sealed) and FV15HP (ported) sound very similar (closer than other company's sealed vs. ported), the FV having more output above tuning than the F, the F having a lower "corner" frequency (the frequency at which 3dB roll-off has occurred, I believe). The bigger the room, the better the FV as the choice, the smaller the room, the advantage perhaps going to the F (15 or 12), or even the E15HP (which has a slightly smaller enclosure than the F15, and about 1/2dB less output). What's the size that denotes a large vs. small room? Around 2000-2500 cu.ft. is considered the dividing line.
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post #21623 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
People just pull answers out of their ass to be honest, when it comes to the midbass range.

I like this chart because I somewhat agree with it.

You have the bass range, the mid range, and the high range, which can be broken out.

What is Mid Bass Range ?

Regardless, the concept means little to me when setting up a system. Once you find a xover that works between your sub, mains and center, it is what it is. If you mains and center are underpowered in the "bass" range above where the sub can work, only solution is better speakers. My speakers cross at 80hz, but the subs are pretty flat to 100hz where they then roll off because it isnt a brick wall. My fronts roll down to about 60hz, which is more than fine for them.

That chart is great! It reveals why it is so important to achieve phase alignment between sub and speaker (so that low-frequency instruments sound "whole", both temporally and in timbre), and why the higher the cross-over frequency, the closer to the speaker should the sub be, so that bass isn't coming from a different location in the room than the higher frequencies (the dreaded "localization"). And, that the frequency at which that becomes relevant is actually lower than is commonly thought.

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post #21624 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 09:14 PM
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Ok, I see. Well you can disregard the finish then, and just look that the audio performance.

The reason I mentioned F12SE, is that if I'll get an F12 I prefer glossy black. That's all.

Based on that, what's your comment to my original question?

For some reason, the F12 is the only model in the Rythmik family of subs that is offered in a version with the "SE" designation (which merely refers to the glossy paint). Both the F15HP and E15HP are also available in gloss (as are other models), but without the SE designation and a separate listing as such. Maybe it's time to reconsider that (to create consistency in the Rythmik lineup), ay Brian? I mean, why a separate listing for the F12SE but not for an F15HPSE? I think it is a hold-over from Rythmik's early days.

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post #21625 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 09:26 PM
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Don't drive yourself crazy (I speak from experience ;-)! The F15HP (sealed) and FV15HP (ported) sound very similar (closer than other company's sealed vs. ported), the FV having more output above tuning than the F, the F having a lower "corner" frequency (the frequency at which 3dB roll-off has occurred, I believe). The bigger the room, the better the FV as the choice, the smaller the room, the advantage perhaps going to the F (15 or 12), or even the E15HP (which has a slightly smaller enclosure than the F15, and about 1/2dB less output). What's the size that denotes a large vs. small room? Around 2000-2500 cu.ft. is considered the dividing line.
Personally anything under 1500 cubic feet is small in my book, then everything less than ~5000 cubic feet is medium.

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post #21626 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 09:32 PM
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Personally anything under 1500 cubic feet is small in my book, then everything less than ~5000 cubic feet is medium.

Yes, I should have said medium room, not large. I meant large not literally, but just in the sense of being large-"er" than what is considered a small room (1500 cu.ft., 2000 cu.ft., 2500 cu.ft., whatever one's definition of small is). I personally don't like "too" large a room, preferring a more intimate setting for listening to music. I for the same reason prefer to see & hear live music in a Club rather than in a Theater or (horrors!) Stadium. Most of my favorite Artists are Club-level anyway, thankfully (for me, though not perhaps them!).

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post #21627 of 24393 Old 11-17-2015, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by adeszko View Post
Thanks for the information, Jim. I totally understand the thinking, and that's what got me into this predicament in the first place! (thinking to myself) "Just buy the biggest and best I can, and if I can't use all of the sub now, that's ok because it's there for when I want it"

So does the FV15HP buck the trend of sealed subs having cleaner low extension than ported? My thinking now is if I won't be using the output a ported sub is capable of, then maybe I should lean towards a sealed sub with better low extension? I'm sure I'm over thinking this and I should just get the FV15HP and be done with it- but you know AVS-ers... paralysis by analysis!
It happens to many, so you certainly aren't the first to over-think this decision.

At one point you could legitimately make the argument that sealed were 'cleaner' sounding, in a general sense at least. That's not necessarily the case any longer, especially when you're dealing with a company like Rythmik (Brian happens to be a music fanatic, an area where precision is an absolute necessity). I've heard the FV15HP myself and it really can handle just about anything you're likely to encounter.

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post #21628 of 24393 Old 11-18-2015, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Went back to 80Hz crossover and simply cranked up sw trim to compensate. It seems each 10Hz step from 120Hz to 80Hz resulted in cleaner, clearer, more tight and precise bass. 120Hz and 110Hz were quite bad sounding, whereas 100Hz and 90Hz were a lot better but still noticeably off.
Interesting. Same exact thing I did. But I'm still wanting to try 100hz with a steeper rolloff though because I suspect it's the 150hz and up sounds that I'm objecting to. If your crossover is set to 120hz, one octave above that is 240hz!

It will take some extra hardware and I'll have to think through how to connect it. I'm thinking I'll have to run the speakers as Large in the AVR, but if I want bass management to happen before Audyssey XT32, it will need to go before the AVR. Not sure how that will all work. Needs more research.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Went back to 80Hz crossover and simply cranked up sw trim to compensate. It seems each 10Hz step from 120Hz to 80Hz resulted in cleaner, clearer, more tight and precise bass. 120Hz and 110Hz were quite bad sounding, whereas 100Hz and 90Hz were a lot better but still noticeably off.
What was the deal discussed earlier about Line In only playing up to 80 or something like that? Wonder if that has anything to do with it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
What was the deal discussed earlier about Line In only playing up to 80 or something like that? Wonder if that has anything to do with it.
Well he did measure well up to 100. My thinking is that if the crossover between speakers and subs is only 12db or 24db per octave, and you're playing 100db at 80hz through the sub, it's also going to put out 88 or 76 db at 160hz. If your crossover is 120hz, you're only 12-24db down by 240hz (not accounting for natural rolloff of the sub's ability). I think we need to try much steeper rolloffs, especially as I'm using LFE and thus don't have the loss of output like he does.
I am curious if using a 24dB/octave slope in the LV12R would allow a 100Hz crossover without sound quality suffering. And possibly lowering the crossover/lpf frequency too.

Either that using MiniDSP crossover/lpf feature to sharply roll off frequencies past 100Hz-120Hz or so. I imagine up to 120Hz is fine since LFE goes to 120Hz and that doesn't sound bad.

However, I wonder if all this is worth the trouble of adjusting/measuring/listening/re-adjusting/re-measuring/re-listening, etc... Maybe just leaving it at 80Hz and calling it a day is best.

I'm curious as to what Brian Ding has to say on the matter... does he recommend leaving crossovers 80Hz and under for the LV12R or does he recommend higher crossovers too and if so, what kind of cascading filters are needed to preserve sound quality?
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post #21629 of 24393 Old 11-18-2015, 07:28 AM
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I'm going to try 24dB/octave lpf slope on the LV12R while sticking with a 80Hz crossover to see if that sounds even better than 12dB/octave on the LV12R. It's only one flip of a switch so easy enough to try.

Though I might need to redo the sw distance tweak...
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post #21630 of 24393 Old 11-18-2015, 08:08 AM
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Initial impressions are more articulate but weaker... will do REW measures and sw distance tweak later

I'm curious what the sub only measure will look like.
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