Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 736 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22051 of 22758 Old 12-06-2015, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
They are sitting on a stage, filled with almost two tons of sand and three layers of one inch plywood.
Gotcha. Just curious.
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post #22052 of 22758 Old 12-06-2015, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
What's your definition of an audiophile? Do they base what they hear based off of reference or preference?

Isn't it a science to accurately replay exactly what the source is outputting?

Anything that deviates from the source is innacurate and if you believe that deviation sounds better, than it's a preference (which is not a bad thing necessarily).

When you use your ears as the primary measuring instruments than your basing things off your preference...our ears simply don't have the precision necessary.

Cables, amps, etc. may provide a different sound than you prefer, but it doesn't mean they are more accurate to reference.

And if your position is of preference, than there really isn't a debate since it's what you prefer...no one can argue with what you like better. But it doesn't necessarily make it more accurate.

I think when most people consider better sound quality with signal chain items (amps, cables, etc), they are referring to reference...eg, more accurate. And accurate = science = reference.

BTW, at the end of the day, I strive for reference...and then, well I tweak it a bit...guess I'm a preference guy as well.

IMO, YMMV

There is a conceptually obvious though sometimes hard-to-implement test that Doug Sax (R.I.P. He passed away very recently), multi-Grammy Award winning recording engineer at Sheffield Labs and mastering engineer at The Mastering Lab (himself a "believer" in advanced cables, rewiring his entire recording and mastering chain and monitor system after hearing the benefit) employed to ascertain the transparency of any given component, wire included---the "by-pass" test. It can be easy---put an unneeded (in the sense of gain and/or impedance matching) pre-amp into the chain, switching it in and out. The less you hear it, the better it is. That is transparency. Or it can be difficult---how do you by-pass test a power amp?! There is a way to so test wire---put a mono power amp right up against the back of a loudspeaker, using only connectors (banana, spade, whatever) to transfer the signal from amp to speaker. Then, add in the wire under test, fastened onto the connectors. The less degradation the wire imparts to the sound (wire can't improve sound, only cause it harm), the better it is. Wire, like any and all other links in the chain, should be, ultimately, audibly invisible---completely and utterly transparent. Except for loudspeakers, of course!

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post #22053 of 22758 Old 12-06-2015, 08:10 AM
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They are sitting on a stage, filled with almost two tons of sand and three layers of one inch plywood.

Sand is God's gift to audiophiles---a very effective vibration/resonance damper, and, forgive the pun, dirt cheap. I got my 100 lb. bags of #60 Silica for less than ten bucks apiece, and filled my DIY F15HP cabinet walls with it. Those suckers are dead. Also very heavy!
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post #22054 of 22758 Old 12-06-2015, 10:04 AM
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A better photo of my Left F25 in place.....
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post #22055 of 22758 Old 12-06-2015, 11:27 AM
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Can anyone explain the differences between the L12 and LV12R for listening to music in a 15x10 room? I can read the spec differences but what's the difference in sound between the two
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post #22056 of 22758 Old 12-06-2015, 11:41 AM
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At such short cable lengths, there will be no difference in audio quality. If in doubt, software can analyze the signal to an infinitely greater degree than can the human brain with its ears.

If we were talking about lines going across the state, then we'd have a discussion.
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A little R&R: Reaction Audio CX-10 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
And a pair of Emotiva Airmotiv 5s
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post #22057 of 22758 Old 12-06-2015, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
For HT application with receiver set LPF slope at 12dB, crossover at 200Hz and Bass Extension on High because you have a pair of F12Gs. If you have F8s only then Low HT would be the right choice.
Why 12 dB? I have been using 24 dB...
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post #22058 of 22758 Old 12-06-2015, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
At such short cable lengths, there will be no difference in audio quality. If in doubt, software can analyze the signal to an infinitely greater degree than can the human brain with its ears.

If we were talking about lines going across the state, then we'd have a discussion.

Doug Sax found that to be not the case when investigating the question, using the aforementioned by-pass test. Apparently Mr. Sax, though a winner of numerous Grammy Awards for recording and mastering (check your music collection for his name in album---both LP and CD---credits), was a gullible sucker, suffering from "expectation bias". The fool rewired his entire professional recording studio and mastering lab after imagining he heard an improvement from "better" sounding cable (both line level and speaker)!

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post #22059 of 22758 Old 12-06-2015, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Jacob B View Post
Why 12 dB? I have been using 24 dB...
I think the general advice with Line In or any connection where the sub's LPF is active is to set the LPF frequency (crossover knob) to max and LPF slope to the shallower roll-off (12dB per octave). That is so you're not combining the AVR's LPF with the sub's LPF (cascading filters).

However, as Soulburner, Mr. Grey, others, and I have been doing, cascading LPFs can clean up the sub's output above the crossover fundamental frequency (like with a 80Hz crossover or 100Hz crossover, for example).

As an example, I set my AVR to a 80Hz crossover and I use my LV12R in Line In with crossover knob at 80Hz and 24dB slope. Then I apply sub eq via MiniDSP (house curve) and use AVR auto-cal/setup plus the sub distance tweak to get the smoothest output around the crossover region (roughly 60Hz to 100Hz with 80Hz crossover). The end result is smooth, clean mid bass that transitions seamlessly from sub to LCRs and it has a very tight and clear sound.

Hope this helps.
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post #22060 of 22758 Old 12-06-2015, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
At such short cable lengths, there will be no difference in audio quality. If in doubt, software can analyze the signal to an infinitely greater degree than can the human brain with its ears.

If we were talking about lines going across the state, then we'd have a discussion.
Yeah, when in doubt, I go by the measurements. If not for REW, there is so much about my setup I wouldn't have known needed work back when I was using a purely by ear approach.

That being said measurements alone can mislead us, like when a 120Hz crossover measured best in REW but sounded terrible.

However, as we found out there is a clear, scientific explanation why. And if one realized exactly what needs to be measured to explain such things (like how quickly the sub rolls off into the noise floor after the crossover frequency), then the measurements and sound quality by ear will match.

So, I believe using measurements as a known reference point plus tweaking to preference afterwards can produce the best overall (subjective and objective) result.

Differences in sound or video quality with cables or wiring (whether we're talking about HDMI, RCA, XLR, speaker cable or wire, etc.) is not something that has any well known scientific explanation or reasoning other than that of expection bias/placebo effect, which as everyone knows is a very real phenomenon that no one is exception to, even the most experienced, golden-eared, audiophile.

So, if the by ear evaluation approach is to be scientific, a double blind test or something along such lines would be necessary at minimum and ideally a measurement of the source before the cable/wire and right after it would be needed to measure transpency mathematically. Sort of like measuring distortion in REW.

(Now I don't claim to be an expert on the scientific side of this matter, but I'm sure there is enough information on this for anyone to see with a simple web search, even right on this forum in the audio theory setup and chat section.)

What I do know is what makes Rythmik subs sound better than the competition, SQ-wise is purely based on science and engineering, as one can see from Brian's informative posts on why he designs subs the way he does and I really like this because I know my LV12R is a great performer not only by listening to it, but by knowing every design choice made in its creation has a technical and meaningful reason behind it. Which is why I bought it in the first place.

Since I'm not receiving any indication of the sort with pricier than average cables/wire, my scientific, analytical mind can't fathom spending any more on cables that is absolutely necessary for acceptable build quality and shielding where applicable.

However, this is just me and I don't expect everyone to share my views on the subject. And I feel the Audioholics.com guys are pretty much on point with the subject, even if their beliefs are in the minority amongst those who have sampled high end audio. (I have not, unless my LV12R counts... which to me it does .)
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post #22061 of 22758 Old 12-06-2015, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bclark8923 View Post
Can anyone explain the differences between the L12 and LV12R for listening to music in a 15x10 room? I can read the spec differences but what's the difference in sound between the two
I had asked this question back in September, when I was deciding between the two for HT use at moderate volumes in a 12 by 12 room.

I was told the LV12R had some more output at 20Hz, but the L12 had a some more extension and also sounded a little cleaner. Also, that it would take 2 L12s to match the 20Hz output of the LV12R. (I'm not 100% about that last statement so someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

However, I want to point out the LV12R in mid or high damping has very clean and tight sound and listening to Pandora on my Xbox One with bass heavy music sounds incredible.

And for HT use, the LV12R is amazing in low or mid damping and still very tight and musical when music presents itself in movie or video game soundtrack.

Personally, I went with the LV12R because all my previous subs were ported and I cared more about 20Hz output than size or extension below 20Hz. I didn't have any plans for a second one, so output down low was an important consideration.

To me the main appeal of the L12 was it's much smaller form factor and less group delay/ringing at the bottom end, aka cleaner sound.

For your usage, the L12 might be slightly more suitable, but as I was told, you really can't go wrong with either, especially if you plan on adding a second identical sub in the future (particularly with the L12).

What kind of sub(s) do you have now, ported or sealed? What matters most to you in a sub?
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post #22062 of 22758 Old 12-06-2015, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I had asked this question back in September, when I was deciding between the two for HT use at moderate volumes in a 12 by 12 room.



I was told the LV12R had some more output at 20Hz, but the L12 had a some more extension and also sounded a little cleaner. Also, that it would take 2 L12s to match the 20Hz output of the LV12R. (I'm not 100% about that last statement so someone correct me if I'm wrong.)



However, I want to point out the LV12R in mid or high damping has very clean and tight sound and listening to Pandora on my Xbox One with bass heavy music sounds incredible.



And for HT use, the LV12R is amazing in low or mid damping and still very tight and musical when music presents itself in movie or video game soundtrack.



Personally, I went with the LV12R because all my previous subs were ported and I cared more about 20Hz output than size or extension below 20Hz. I didn't have any plans for a second one, so output down low was an important consideration.



To me the main appeal of the L12 was it's much smaller form factor and less group delay/ringing at the bottom end, aka cleaner sound.



For your usage, the L12 might be slightly more suitable, but as I was told, you really can't go wrong with either, especially if you plan on adding a second identical sub in the future (particularly with the L12).



What kind of sub(s) do you have now, ported or sealed? What matters most to you in a sub?

Currently no sub haha, I'm doing a big budget bookshelf review in speakers to setup a 2.0 system but in the coming months I'd like to get a sub as well.

And yeah the L12 sounds like something I'd want. The extra extension isn't as big of a plus for me but I'm more of a clean sound type of person and my small apartment a big sub would annoy the roommates haha so looking for something at medium listening levels to give the best quality for music (lots of EDM).

2.0 Bookshelf Compared! Wharfedale, Philharmonic, Chane, MusicHall, Elac, Energy, Kef


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Last edited by bclark8923; 12-06-2015 at 11:32 PM.
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post #22063 of 22758 Old 12-07-2015, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I think the general advice with Line In or any connection where the sub's LPF is active is to set the LPF frequency (crossover knob) to max and LPF slope to the shallower roll-off (12dB per octave). That is so you're not combining the AVR's LPF with the sub's LPF (cascading filters).

However, as Soulburner, Mr. Grey, others, and I have been doing, cascading LPFs can clean up the sub's output above the crossover fundamental frequency (like with a 80Hz crossover or 100Hz crossover, for example).

As an example, I set my AVR to a 80Hz crossover and I use my LV12R in Line In with crossover knob at 80Hz and 24dB slope. Then I apply sub eq via MiniDSP (house curve) and use AVR auto-cal/setup plus the sub distance tweak to get the smoothest output around the crossover region (roughly 60Hz to 100Hz with 80Hz crossover). The end result is smooth, clean mid bass that transitions seamlessly from sub to LCRs and it has a very tight and clear sound.

Hope this helps.
With my E15HP and FM8 combo (two of each, in the front corners), I have set my freshly installed and calibrated Denon X5200W to a crossover of 200 for L/R Mains, and 100 hz for center and surrounds. The reason I set the center speaker at 100 Hz and not 200 Hz is to avoid having male dialogue's fundamental frequency (85-180 Hz) be played by the FM-8s, as this would mean only the center seats would get the dialogue presented in the middle of the screen where it belongs (with the FM8s creating a phantom center speaker up to 200 hz), while side seats would have an offset phantom dialogue.
Anyone with FM8s have experience with these issues? I need to test, of course, whether setting the center to 200 Hz produces a better or worse result, using a source with heavy male dialogue/singing (any good ideas?)

I will experiment with 24 vs 12 dB LPF on the FM8s to hear what sounds best. Should this be done by ear only, or could I benefit from using REW?
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post #22064 of 22758 Old 12-07-2015, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Jacob B View Post
With my E15HP and FM8 combo (two of each, in the front corners), I have set my freshly installed and calibrated Denon X5200W to a crossover of 200 for L/R Mains, and 100 hz for center and surrounds. The reason I set the center speaker at 100 Hz and not 200 Hz is to avoid having male dialogue's fundamental frequency (85-180 Hz) be played by the FM-8s, as this would mean only the center seats would get the dialogue presented in the middle of the screen where it belongs (with the FM8s creating a phantom center speaker up to 200 hz), while side seats would have an offset phantom dialogue.
Anyone with FM8s have experience with these issues? I need to test, of course, whether setting the center to 200 Hz produces a better or worse result, using a source with heavy male dialogue/singing (any good ideas?)

I will experiment with 24 vs 12 dB LPF on the FM8s to hear what sounds best. Should this be done by ear only, or could I benefit from using REW?
I'm not too familiar with how mid bass modules are integrated with the mains and regular subs, but I would use a combination of REW, your ears, and Audyssey on your AVR for best results.

Can you or someone else explain to me how a mid bass module is integrated into a typical 5.1 setup? I'm not sure I know how that works exactly.
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post #22065 of 22758 Old 12-07-2015, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bclark8923 View Post
Currently no sub haha, I'm doing a big budget bookshelf review in speakers to setup a 2.0 system but in the coming months I'd like to get a sub as well.

And yeah the L12 sounds like something I'd want. The extra extension isn't as big of a plus for me but I'm more of a clean sound type of person and my small apartment a big sub would annoy the roommates haha so looking for something at medium listening levels to give the best quality for music (lots of EDM).

2.0 Bookshelf Compared! Wharfedale, Philharmonic, Chane, MusicHall, Elac, Energy, Kef


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Yeah, the L12 should be a good fit for you. (As long as EDM doesnt need strong output under 30Hz or so.)

Interesting thread and I can relate to those bookshelves as my Sony Core Bookshelves and center channel are in the same price range and comparable in SQ and output/extension.
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post #22066 of 22758 Old 12-07-2015, 05:38 PM
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Two years later and my Rythmiks still amaze me. Even more so now after switching to line in and utilizing a 90hz crossover. They simply disappear, but hit you in the chest when called upon. The LVR12's I had before were no joke. The FV15HP's are on another planet. I can only imagine what the 18" subs will do once released.

Display - Vizio M70‑C3
Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #22067 of 22758 Old 12-07-2015, 07:25 PM
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I'm thinking about trying a 90Hz crossover too.
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post #22068 of 22758 Old 12-07-2015, 07:25 PM
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Two years later and my Rythmiks still amaze me. Even more so now after switching to line in and utilizing a 90hz crossover. They simply disappear, but hit you in the chest when called upon. The LVR12's I had before were no joke. The FV15HP's are on another planet. I can only imagine what the 18" subs will do once released.
I'm way behind on this thread but I noticed you switched to line in vs LFE. What was the motivation for that and what did you all have to change besides just the input on the subs? Are you using a receiver for your room correction with line in?

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post #22069 of 22758 Old 12-07-2015, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
For HT application with receiver set LPF slope at 12dB, crossover at 200Hz and Bass Extension on High because you have a pair of F12Gs. If you have F8s only then Low HT would be the right choice.
Hi enricoclaudio,

Thanks for the information and would like some additional feedback as the setup is a bit unique.

Yes, I'm using the bass management on the receiver to integrate the satellite + F8 with the subs (F12G). I have no control of the receiver's slope (believe it's 12dB/octave) but so far the combined sub response is producing clean bass up to 120Hz based on the frequency response measurement as shown below:
2x12G subs. LFE input. Frequency extension=14Hz. Damping=Low. Rumble Filter=OFF. No smoothing.


It's when I combine the whole thing of satellite + F8 + F12Gs at a low crossover point (this is at 60Hz) that it starts to go pear shape. Below is the measured response of the left channel that comprises of the KEF E301 + F8 + F12G. No smoothing.


There's significant interaction between the Rythmik F8 and F12G at the bass frequencies and comb filtering at the mid bass onwards.

I'm combining the satellite speaker + F8 to make it full range. Using an external electronic crossover (miniDSP 10x10HD) to combine the satellite speaker + F8. Using LR48 (48dB/octave slope) filters with a high pass crossover frequency at 160Hz on the satellite and low pass 180Hz for the F8. I've set the LPF slope on the F8 to 12dB initially then switched it over to 24dB.

Is there something I'm doing wrong here? I must be doing something wrong as the as subs are doing a great job on bass reproduction as shown in the 1st graph.

Marantz SR-7009, Oppo BPD-93, MTV 7000D, aTV, WDTV Live, Harmony 650 + Home Control remote, KEF E301+T101, MiniDSP (2x4)+(10x10HD)+(DDRC-88A), Emotiva 2xXPA-5 (Gen2), Rythmik 2xF12G+2xF8, HiMedia Q16, LG 55EC9300.

Last edited by steveting99; 12-07-2015 at 11:47 PM. Reason: additional text
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post #22070 of 22758 Old 12-07-2015, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
That being said measurements alone can mislead us, like when a 120Hz crossover measured best in REW but sounded terrible.
Do you have any graph that looks bad but sound good?
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post #22071 of 22758 Old 12-08-2015, 06:38 AM
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I'm thinking about trying a 90Hz crossover too.
I've always had it at a 100hz crossover, but since switching to line in I had to change it to 90 due to the roll-off of using this input. LFE input extends all the way up to 200hz, so it was no problem using 100-120 crossover. My speakers sounded more crisp and clear after raising the crossover up from 80hz. Why make your speakers do the heavy lifting. That's what your sub(s) are there for.

Display - Vizio M70‑C3
Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #22072 of 22758 Old 12-08-2015, 06:41 AM
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I'm way behind on this thread but I noticed you switched to line in vs LFE. What was the motivation for that and what did you all have to change besides just the input on the subs? Are you using a receiver for your room correction with line in?
If you skim back like 5 pages or so you will see a lot of discussion about this.

Display - Vizio M70‑C3
Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Klipsch RF-82 II's, RC-62 II, RB-61 II's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #22073 of 22758 Old 12-08-2015, 07:18 AM
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Hi Mr Rythmik or Enrico,

Need your awesome advice on the recommended extension settings on the Rythmik subs for calibration with both Antimode Dual Core and XT32. My setup has 2 Rythmik subs (E15HP + F15HP) placed in diagonal corners of my room, supported by an AVR with XT32.

Can I check if the following extension settings vs steps is optimal/ correct?

1) Turn off rumble filter and set the extension to 14hz/ mid damping before running Antimode calibration
2) run antimode calibration
3) next, with antimode EQ switched on, keep the same Rythmik settings. Run audyssey XT32
4) After the Audyssey XT32 calibration is done, leave Antimode and Audyssey on.
5) For movies and cleaner bass, set Rythmiks to high damping, 14hz. Turn ON the rumble filter for high spl listening.

Thanks!

Last edited by sevenz; 12-08-2015 at 07:21 AM.
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post #22074 of 22758 Old 12-08-2015, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
Do you have any graph that looks bad but sound good?
Sure, my surrounds measure quite badly at the moment with a 80Hz crossover and the current sub distance (not entirely in phase). However, subjectively they don't sound bad at all.

Also, my L+sub measurement looks better with a 100Hz crossover and worse with a 80Hz crossover but the sound quality subjectively is better with the 80Hz crossover.

That being said when I upgrade my AVR to one with auto eq worth using (mine's auto peq sounds bad), I do expect a notable improvement. Like one with Audyssey XT32 or at least XT.

One thing I wanted to ask based on the guide for dialing in Rythmik subs was it said with Audyssey to never lower any of the crossovers below where Audyssey sets it since it doesn't apply filters that low. So, what does one do if the crossover is set above 80Hz and they want it at 80Hz?
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post #22075 of 22758 Old 12-08-2015, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Hi enricoclaudio,

Thanks for the information and would like some additional feedback as the setup is a bit unique.

Yes, I'm using the bass management on the receiver to integrate the satellite + F8 with the subs (F12G). I have no control of the receiver's slope (believe it's 12dB/octave) but so far the combined sub response is producing clean bass up to 120Hz based on the frequency response measurement as shown below:
2x12G subs. LFE input. Frequency extension=14Hz. Damping=Low. Rumble Filter=OFF. No smoothing.


It's when I combine the whole thing of satellite + F8 + F12Gs at a low crossover point (this is at 60Hz) that it starts to go pear shape. Below is the measured response of the left channel that comprises of the KEF E301 + F8 + F12G. No smoothing.


There's significant interaction between the Rythmik F8 and F12G at the bass frequencies and comb filtering at the mid bass onwards.

I'm combining the satellite speaker + F8 to make it full range. Using an external electronic crossover (miniDSP 10x10HD) to combine the satellite speaker + F8. Using LR48 (48dB/octave slope) filters with a high pass crossover frequency at 160Hz on the satellite and low pass 180Hz for the F8. I've set the LPF slope on the F8 to 12dB initially then switched it over to 24dB.

Is there something I'm doing wrong here? I must be doing something wrong as the as subs are doing a great job on bass reproduction as shown in the 1st graph.

It looks like the gain on FM8 is higher than F12G or there is too much overlap between F12G and FM8. You can adjust on F12G the crossover knob (make it lower) and phase (depends on the distance difference) to make sure the crossover point is correct and phase alignment is good. I assume the LFE setting on F12G is already 50hz/24hz.


To further debug if necessary, I suggest to do a near field on each individual sub (F12G and FM8) with mic about 3" away. Close mic is to get rid of room interaction and just measure the output from the woofer in the least noisy setup. If yiou can put the subwoofer in the middle of room, you can get the most clean measurement before any smoothing.
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post #22076 of 22758 Old 12-08-2015, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
That being said when I upgrade my AVR to one with auto eq worth using (mine's auto peq sounds bad), I do expect a notable improvement. Like one with Audyssey XT32 or at least XT.
Arent you able to manually eq with the tools you have?
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post #22077 of 22758 Old 12-08-2015, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by sevenz View Post
Hi Mr Rythmik or Enrico,

Need your awesome advice on the recommended extension settings on the Rythmik subs for calibration with both Antimode Dual Core and XT32. My setup has 2 Rythmik subs (E15HP + F15HP) placed in diagonal corners of my room, supported by an AVR with XT32.

Can I check if the following extension settings vs steps is optimal/ correct?

1) Turn off rumble filter and set the extension to 14hz/ mid damping before running Antimode calibration
2) run antimode calibration
3) next, with antimode EQ switched on, keep the same Rythmik settings. Run audyssey XT32
4) After the Audyssey XT32 calibration is done, leave Antimode and Audyssey on.
5) For movies and cleaner bass, set Rythmiks to high damping, 14hz. Turn ON the rumble filter for high spl listening.

Thanks!
All sounds good, except that you're going to want to play with the sub distances after XT32. If you can measure your room with a mic and REW that is a big help. See the sub distance tweak in kbarnes signature in the Audyssey thread.

One thing I'll say is that I prefer the Rumble Filter set to off. Even for music it sounds better, as I feel that the rumble in the floor and chair really add to the experience. This will depend on the music, but it's certainly true for some of mine. For example, I really like the Transformers soundtracks for testing my system and because they sound so good. There are a few tracks that just aren't as good with the rumble filter on, especially The Fallen.

But my F12s aren't usually asked to go above 95db.
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And a pair of Emotiva Airmotiv 5s

Last edited by Soulburner; 12-08-2015 at 11:24 AM.
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post #22078 of 22758 Old 12-08-2015, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Hi enricoclaudio,

Thanks for the information and would like some additional feedback as the setup is a bit unique.

Yes, I'm using the bass management on the receiver to integrate the satellite + F8 with the subs (F12G). I have no control of the receiver's slope (believe it's 12dB/octave) but so far the combined sub response is producing clean bass up to 120Hz based on the frequency response measurement as shown below:
2x12G subs. LFE input. Frequency extension=14Hz. Damping=Low. Rumble Filter=OFF. No smoothing.


It's when I combine the whole thing of satellite + F8 + F12Gs at a low crossover point (this is at 60Hz) that it starts to go pear shape. Below is the measured response of the left channel that comprises of the KEF E301 + F8 + F12G. No smoothing.


There's significant interaction between the Rythmik F8 and F12G at the bass frequencies and comb filtering at the mid bass onwards.

I'm combining the satellite speaker + F8 to make it full range. Using an external electronic crossover (miniDSP 10x10HD) to combine the satellite speaker + F8. Using LR48 (48dB/octave slope) filters with a high pass crossover frequency at 160Hz on the satellite and low pass 180Hz for the F8. I've set the LPF slope on the F8 to 12dB initially then switched it over to 24dB.

Is there something I'm doing wrong here? I must be doing something wrong as the as subs are doing a great job on bass reproduction as shown in the 1st graph.
Is your second graph mains + subs? If so, are your mains and subs right next to each other? I think you need a crossover higher than 60hz. Try 90Hz with Line In and just let it roll off naturally, with the crossover knob on the sub set to max. Set 12 or 24db slope as preferred (many are preferring 24 lately). You need your subs, which are getting great response, to eliminate that 80hz dip caused by your mains.

I'm afraid I'm not very knowledgeable in the 100hz+ region, as I haven't yet addressed that myself. One piece of advice I'd give though is to try adjusting the sub distance (phase) of the F8 in the AVR in 1 foot increments. Write down what Audyssey set it to so you can revert back if needed.
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Samsung PN64H5000 (recommended settings)
Denon AVR-X4000
A little R&R: Reaction Audio CX-10 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
And a pair of Emotiva Airmotiv 5s

Last edited by Soulburner; 12-08-2015 at 11:31 AM.
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post #22079 of 22758 Old 12-08-2015, 12:56 PM
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Comb filtering happens at the fundamental and harmonics on up the spectrum. If you can play a single test tone (frequency) at the lowest dip in the comb and use an SPL meter, or run REW in real-time (don't recall if it does that), you could watch while adjusting the phase knob and at some point the response should magically flatten out. It is these sorts of things that make RTA (real-time analysis) tools so useful.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #22080 of 22758 Old 12-08-2015, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
All sounds good, except that you're going to want to play with the sub distances after XT32. If you can measure your room with a mic and REW that is a big help. See the sub distance tweak in kbarnes signature in the Audyssey thread.

One thing I'll say is that I prefer the Rumble Filter set to off. Even for music it sounds better, as I feel that the rumble in the floor and chair really add to the experience. This will depend on the music, but it's certainly true for some of mine. For example, I really like the Transformers soundtracks for testing my system and because they sound so good. There are a few tracks that just aren't as good with the rumble filter on, especially The Fallen.

But my F12s aren't usually asked to go above 95db.

I believe Peter incorporated a rumble filter for if and when the sub is used with an LP turntable, the term rumble referring specifically to the low-frequency noise of tt motors and arm/cartridge resonance.
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