Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 757 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #22681 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Sub or subs make the greatest impact on audio, so don't cheap out on sub(s).
+1

As a general rule of thumb, get more subwoofer than you feel is necessary. In short order you'll probably come to realize it wasn't too much, and instead turned out to be ideal.

If you take yourself too seriously, expect me to do the exact opposite
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post #22682 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I went up to -2MV (105dB). Didn't want to crank MV any further, should the AVR clip. Sub trim not hot, set at -1.5dB, REW sent -22.0dBFS signal, MiniDSP/Sub EQ active and in mid damping/ext.

REW .mdat attached (zip file)
To record the correct absolute output, you want to set it to -3db FS in REW before taking measurements. I would only run sweeps from 18hz and up for your sub. After running your highest sweep before compression occurs, select this sweep and click on distortion button in REW, then place your cursor at 20hz, REW will show your distortion levels at 20hz down in the legend area. Now, place your cursor up at 25hz or more (any frequency >20hz) you will see distortion levels are greatly reduced except the null area.
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post #22683 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
To record the correct absolute output, you want to set it to -3db FS in REW before taking measurements. I would only run sweeps from 18hz and up for your sub. After running your highest sweep before compression occurs, select this sweep and click on distortion button in REW, then place your cursor at 20hz, REW will show your distortion levels at 20hz down in the legend area. Now, place your cursor up at 25hz or more (any frequency >20hz) you will see distortion levels are greatly reduced except the null area.
I did -22dBFS because -12dBFS is the norm for most REW measurements and the LFE channel sent to the AVR adds +10dB, so -22dBFS compensates for that.

Any reason for measuring from 18Hz? The tuning frequency is 19Hz.

Also, if I wanted to calculate what MV setting on my AVR is reference level based on these measurements, how would I do that?

(Based on -2MV producing 105dB at the LFE channel when fed a -22dBFS signal.)
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post #22684 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 02:54 PM
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Would -11MV produce 115dB with a -3dBFS signal from REW? Is my math correct? Making -11MV reference level on my Yamaha AVR?

(Assuming the sub could actually reach that level without compression and without the MiniDSP input clipping).
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post #22685 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 03:19 PM
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^^ if your receiver calibrated everything correctly, measuring in REW with -3db FS at 0MV will have your FR sitting around 115db for lfe channel and 105db for speaker. If you want to verify your absolute level accuracy and don't want to be loud, set your MV at -30 and measure with -3db FS in REW should yield your FR around 85db for lfe and 75db for speaker. As of starting measuring at 18hz, 1hz below tune is to see if you have any room gain below tune and to see where it actually rolls off in your room. My FV tune is 12hz but my f3 point in my room is down to 10hz.

Edit: 0MV on Denon Avr is reference. Not sure about Yamaha and others.
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post #22686 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ if your receiver calibrated everything correctly, measuring in REW with -3db FS at 0MV will have your FR sitting around 115db for lfe channel and 105db for speaker. If you want to verify your absolute level accuracy and don't want to be loud, set your MV at -30 and measure with -3db FS in REW should yield your FR around 85db for lfe and 75db for speaker. As of starting measuring at 18hz, 1hz below tune is to see if you have any room gain below tune and to see where it actually rolls off in your room. My FV tune is 12hz but my f3 point in my room is down to 10hz.

Edit: 0MV on Denon Avr is reference. Not sure about Yamaha and others.
Ok, thanks

My Yamaha doesn't calibrate 0MV to reference level, it just leaves the front left speaker trim at 0.0dB and adjusts the other trims to match the front left speaker. I think all Yamahas are like this but not sure. Maybe Bond or someone else with a newer Yamaha can comment.

However, for the compression sweeps the main goal for me was to see how much output I have at 20Hz before compression. The results show minor compression at 105dB.

What is more significant is distortion increases at 20Hz and something going on around 60Hz which is likely nearby furniture/speakers/etc. rattling.
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post #22687 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 03:37 PM
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Also, should I start all sweeps involving the sub at 18Hz or only the stuff past 85dB or so?
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post #22688 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 03:53 PM
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The thing is I don't know if that 105db is accurate. How about making a note of what volume give you graph centered at 75db for speaker and 85db for lfe using -3db FS in REW, then you know what MV on your Yamaha is reference. From here, you can start the sweep to record the highest one right before it compresses to know your safe level. If you run bass hotter, you need to factor that in as well as about 3-5db bass redirecting from speakers.
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post #22689 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
The thing is I don't know if that 105db is accurate. How about making a note of what volume give you graph centered at 75db for speaker and 85db for lfe using -3db FS in REW, then you know what MV on your Yamaha is reference. From here, you can start the sweep to record the highest one right before it compresses to know your safe level. If you run bass hotter, you need to factor that in as well as about 3-5db bass redirecting from speakers.
Ok, I can do that another day.

here's a corrected graph that starts at 18Hz and assumes -10MV produces 105dB for LFE (just to make things look more normal to Audyssey users):
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UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
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post #22690 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 04:02 PM
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^ do I have room gain?

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post #22691 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

I placed the cursor at 20 Hz so the legend shows the output at that frequency for each sweep. You can see it starts at 93.5 dB. A 5 dB increase in MV shows 98.6 dB(+5.1), no compression. Another 5 shows 103.5(+4.9), again no(realistically) compression. Another 5 dB increase in MV shows an increase of only 3.5 dB to 107. This indicates 1.5 dB of compression setting in at that frequency. Another sweep at higher level would have resulted in a lot more compression but I stopped the sweeps there because my amp can supply about twice as much power as that driver can handle and I do not run a limiter.

The reason you have that 1.5db compression is because the voice coil has heated up to high temperature. If you continue to drive more, voice coil will get even hotter. But what is important is that the temperature does not come down in a snap. So that 1.5db compression is going to have effect for some time even though you drop the signal level to 90db at 10hz. That is, the supposedly 90db output will only get 90-1.5=88.5db. That is what I call thermal memory effect. This type of compression is different from say port compression which can recover immediately when the signal level drops.
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post #22692 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Sub or subs make the greatest impact on audio, so don't cheap out on sub(s). I spent more on my 2 subs than all of my 7 speakers and receiver combined. I always like to use Avs member archaea's slogan 'Without subs, it's background music, with subs it's the main event'
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+1

As a general rule of thumb, get more subwoofer than you feel is necessary. In short order you'll probably come to realize it wasn't too much, and instead turned out to be ideal.
Ok, you guys got me. I rather be safe than sorry. I will look into the '15 subs, not sure which just yet. I would still like to keep the budget around $900 though. Ideally I'd love the F15HP but at least for the time being that's not an option. I will look into the LVX15, although I think I want more amp if I'm going to be investing that much money.
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post #22693 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Also, should I start all sweeps involving the sub at 18Hz or only the stuff past 85dB or so?
Nothing wrong with starting the sweep at 10 Hz...your subs natural roll off and limiter will protect, and you still have usable output near and below tune.

You look compression free @ 105 dB down to 25 Hz or so. At 20 Hz, you have 1.5 dB of compression. So if you are watching something that calls for 105 dB output at 20 Hz, you should get it with little to no compression....a sine wave sweep is tougher than real world content. You should be very accurate up to -15 on movies even with the sub a bit hot. IMO. Having said that....a sealed sub with enough output to be flat to 10 Hz would improve things a bit on movies. Maybe not enough to be worth it though. Good performance for the price if you ask me.
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post #22694 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Nothing wrong with starting the sweep at 10 Hz...your subs natural roll off and limiter will protect, and you still have usable output near and below tune.

You look compression free @ 105 dB down to 25 Hz or so. At 20 Hz, you have 1.5 dB of compression. So if you are watching something that calls for 105 dB output at 20 Hz, you should get it with little to no compression....a sine wave sweep is tougher than real world content. You should be very accurate up to -15 on movies even with the sub a bit hot. IMO. Having said that....a sealed sub with enough output to be flat to 10 Hz would improve things a bit on movies. Maybe not enough to be worth it though. Good performance for the price if you ask me.
Sounds good, thanks for the feedback... any comments on the distortion tab of the attached .mdat?

Specifically, whatever is going on around 60Hz?
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post #22695 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
what can I conclude about my sub playing up to 105dB? in terms of compression? distortion? etc.?

Two guesses, and just guesses, I wouldn't take these to the bank. My first guess is that there is some positive eq applied in this area to flatten things out, resulting in some distortion setting in earlier in this area. I know you have a miniDSP and only use it to cut(?) but what about PEQ on the sub or does your AVR apply any room correction to the sub?

Other guess would be that the room is causing some issues in this region with ringing or something? Maybe Brian could weigh in here.

I assume this a sub only sweep, so no chance that your speakers are playing any part in this?
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post #22696 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Two guesses, and just guesses, I wouldn't take these to the bank. My first guess is that there is some positive eq applied in this area to flatten things out, resulting in some distortion setting in earlier in this area. I know you have a miniDSP and only use it to cut(?) but what about PEQ on the sub or does your AVR apply any room correction to the sub?

Other guess would be that the room is causing some issues in this region with ringing or something? Maybe Brian could weigh in here.

I assume this a sub only sweep, so no chance that your speakers are playing any part in this?
I'm not applying any boost overall but there is one filter in the MiniDSP that boosts a lot around 60Hz. However, when looking at the summed response of all filters in the MiniDSP, there is zero boost at 60Hz and cuts on both sides.

Also, I'm using no EQ in the AVR and my sub doesn't have PEQ on its amp.

Room is my guess too.

Measure is sub only, LFE.

I can post the filters I'm using if that helps.
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post #22697 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 07:07 PM
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here's the filter info:
Attached Thumbnails
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UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
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post #22698 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 07:10 PM
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MiniDSP summed filter response:
Attached Thumbnails
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Name:	Capture.PNG
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Name:	dist.png
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UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
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post #22699 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 07:16 PM
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^ on second glance, it may be the boosting filter as the MiniDSP correction and the distortion graph look suspiciously similar.

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post #22700 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
Only if the crossover in your AVR is set that high. If you have it at 80Hz you're getting absolutely no output at 200Hz.
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If you have the crossover set relatively high - say 100Hz - and are using the default 12dB you're down the full 12dB by 200Hz, making that output completely inaudible. The only way you would have anything you could hear at 200Hz would be if the crossover was set for 150Hz, and even that would probably be imperceptible.
Not true at all. On my F12s, I can easily hear the sounds playing up to 200hz when using LFE IN.

The only time the sounds become inaudible is when they fall to the level of the noise floor of your room, or close to it. You said it yourself - with a 100hz crossover, you're only 12db down by 200Hz. That means at a 95db level, you're getting 200hz sounds playing at 83db. And you're still getting 300hz frequencies playing at 71db. That is clearly in the audible range, and is why I changed to Line In combined with the 24/80 setting. My subs now drop down to 45db at 200hz. Now I have increased my subs headroom by about 2db because they are playing a narrower range of frequencies, and eliminating those upper frequencies cleaned up the sound very nicely. It just sounds better when your subs and speakers have less overlap, where they are both playing at the same time.
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post #22701 of 27128 Old 01-26-2016, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by david8613 View Post
I currently am auditioning the svs prime satelites with svs pb 2000 just waiting on speaker wires, The build qaulity is really nice. I was also looking at getting the wavecrest hvl1 bookshelf and pairing it with one of the rythmik 15" portred subs. Im wondering how much better this set up might sound. Anyone ever compare both head to head?
The sound quality of Rythmik subs is very different from most others, including SVS. With Rythmik, you're going to hear a lot more texture and detail in the low frequency effects in movies and more accurate instruments in music. For speakers in a similar price range, I would add to your shopping list the EMP R5Bi. I think they will really surprise you. If you like a more laid back midrange, look at the Chane A1-rxc.
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post #22702 of 27128 Old 01-27-2016, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Robto View Post
IMO the "extra 5 Hz" is pretty much meaningless.
1) We don't hear below 20 Hz.
2) Yes, I know you can "feel" below 20 Hz, but
3) the -3 dB point is a very arbitrary standard, you will still get extension below this point with any sub, and
4) room gain will add a bit in any case: the in-room characteristics of both subs will be different from the empty space measurements.

There may be other reasons to spend that $230 (more output, maybe, if you're a real bass-head?), but don't spend it for the 5 Hz.
Do it for the sound quality. That alone is the biggest selling point for me.

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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
As a general rule of thumb it's a good idea to buy a subwoofer that may initially seem to be a bit more than required. As time goes on most people come to the realization that "extra" wasn't really extra at all, and in the end it turns out to be closer to their ideal.
This is exactly what happened when I sprung for F12s over L12s. I ended up making really good use of all of the features including the PEQ and slope settings and am very pleased with the result. I wouldn't have been able to dial in my system as finely without the extra controls.

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post #22704 of 27128 Old 01-27-2016, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Not true at all. On my F12s, I can easily hear the sounds playing up to 200hz when using LFE IN.

The only time the sounds become inaudible is when they fall to the level of the noise floor of your room, or close to it. You said it yourself - with a 100hz crossover, you're only 12db down by 200Hz. That means at a 95db level, you're getting 200hz sounds playing at 83db. And you're still getting 300hz frequencies playing at 71db. That is clearly in the audible range, and is why I changed to Line In combined with the 24/80 setting. My subs now drop down to 45db at 200hz. Now I have increased my subs headroom by about 2db because they are playing a narrower range of frequencies, and eliminating those upper frequencies cleaned up the sound very nicely. It just sounds better when your subs and speakers have less overlap, where they are both playing at the same time.
If you put your ear right up to the sub driver, and don't have the speakers playing, then perhaps there's something audible at 12dB down. But sitting in your chair with 5 or more speakers going as well? Not happening. With all the sound coming from the speakers and subwoofer(s) that is in the audible range anything that far off is beyond a persons ability to discern. Our acuity is simply not that advanced.

If you're listening at a level of 95dB then something playing at 83dB will be inaudible, regardless of where the noise floor is (because that will be even further down from the loudest sounds, so it won't factor in). Reverse that and your example would be true; if your noise floor is 71dB and you play a tone at 83dB then for sure it will be heard. To further that point, if you do have a 71dB noise floor and you're listening to music at 83dB do you hear anything that contributes to the noise floor itself? You don't, but no one can because it's 12dB below the output level of the music.
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post #22705 of 27128 Old 01-27-2016, 07:55 AM
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Do it for the sound quality. That alone is the biggest selling point for me.
The SQ of all Rythmik subs is highly similar, especially 30Hz and up. And the LVX12 doesn't have more amp features/controls than the LV12R. To get the F12 level of amp control/features, the FV15HP is the only ported option with that today.

So, basically, getting the LVX12 over the LV12R for SQ wouldn't really make sense.

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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
If you put your ear right up to the sub driver, and don't have the speakers playing, then perhaps there's something audible at 12dB down. But sitting in your chair with 5 or more speakers going as well? Not happening. With all the sound coming from the speakers and subwoofer(s) that is in the audible range anything that far off is beyond a persons ability to discern. Our acuity is simply not that advanced.

If you're listening at a level of 95dB then something playing at 83dB will be inaudible, regardless of where the noise floor is (because that will be even further down from the loudest sounds, so it won't factor in). Reverse that and your example would be true; if your noise floor is 71dB and you play a tone at 83dB then for sure it will be heard. To further that point, if you do have a 71dB noise floor and you're listening to music at 83dB do you hear anything that contributes to the noise floor itself? You don't, but no one can because it's 12dB below the output level of the music.
Yet, I hear a clear difference in SQ between a 80Hz crossover and a 100Hz one. 80Hz sounds a lot cleaner/clearer and tighter/more precise. And my speakers would likely be better served with a 100Hz crossover given they don't play much under 80Hz before the crossover HPF is applied.

Why is that?

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Sony Core Bookshelf (SS-CS5) Side Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4, Xbox One, Xfinity X1 (CI CXD01ANI)
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post #22707 of 27128 Old 01-27-2016, 09:44 AM
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Hey guys,

in the subtuner2 application which input option is used for the ''Line in'' connection. see attached photo.
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Receiver - Sony STR-DH550
Fronts - Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-280F
Center
- Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-450C
Surrounds - Don't ask lol
Sub - Rythmik FV15HP
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post #22708 of 27128 Old 01-27-2016, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Yet, I hear a clear difference in SQ between a 80Hz crossover and a 100Hz one. 80Hz sounds a lot cleaner/clearer and tighter/more precise. And my speakers would likely be better served with a 100Hz crossover given they don't play much under 80Hz before the crossover HPF is applied.

Why is that?
You've essentially made my point by providing a real-world example.

If you set your crossover to 80Hz by 100Hz you're down 3dB (assuming 12dB per octave) so the subwoofers output has diminished to the point where its absence is starting to become audible (or in this case inaudible), hence why it sounds "cleaner" to your ears. By 120Hz - or about 6dB down - human hearing interprets that as approximately half the output, which means most of us probably won't hear it any longer. At 140Hz you're down 9dB and by 160Hz it's the full 12dB, which renders it imperceptible.

In your case it seems you may be particularly sensitive to the 'overlap' that occurs in the crossover region, which tends to 'thicken' the sound for some people (myself included). Often times I'll not only set a crossover in my AVR but I will also set the crossover on the sub. That generally results in a steeper 24dB per octave slope, making it such that the crossover interaction is almost completely eliminated.

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post #22709 of 27128 Old 01-27-2016, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
You've essentially made my point by providing a real-world example.

If you set your crossover to 80Hz by 100Hz you're down 3dB (assuming 12dB per octave) so the subwoofers output has diminished to the point where its absence is starting to become audible (or in this case inaudible), hence why it sounds "cleaner" to your ears. By 120Hz - or about 6dB down - human hearing interprets that as approximately half the output, which means most of us probably won't hear it any longer. At 140Hz you're down 9dB and by 160Hz it's the full 12dB, which renders it imperceptible.

In your case it seems you may be particularly sensitive to the 'overlap' that occurs in the crossover region, which tends to 'thicken' the sound for some people (myself included). Often times I'll not only set a crossover in my AVR but I will also set the crossover on the sub. That generally results in a steeper 24dB per octave slope, making it such that the crossover interaction is almost completely eliminated.
My AVR does apply a 24dB per octave LPF to the sub at the crossover frequency. Also, I have the LPF slope at 24dB on the sub via Line In. Even then, I still prefer 80Hz even to 90Hz.

Am I super sensitive to the sub playing higher than with 80Hz crossover?
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post #22710 of 27128 Old 01-27-2016, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
My AVR does apply a 24dB per octave LPF to the sub at the crossover frequency. Also, I have the LPF slope at 24dB on the sub via Line In. Even then, I still prefer 80Hz even to 90Hz.

Am I super sensitive to the sub playing higher than with 80Hz crossover?
At 48dB per octave the slope would look more like a nose dive than anything, so the fact you can still sense a difference between 80Hz and 90Hz does make it sound like you are particularly sensitive. 'chesty' voices are very annoying for me, which is why I often double up the slope.

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