Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 757 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 01-26-2016, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Here is a compression sweep I did with my SI HT-18 driver. Ignore the horrid FR...I chopped off the top end because I was using a low crossover, had my speakers running etc etc...causes all kinds of compression from my speakers near and above the crossover. I need to do a full range compression sweep on the subs only but honestly....they are so much more capable than my speakers that I'm really not all that concerned about it. Anyway...my FR with a single sub is horrible but this shows clean output capability down low.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1453834722

I placed the cursor at 20 Hz so the legend shows the output at that frequency for each sweep. You can see it starts at 93.5 dB. A 5 dB increase in MV shows 98.6 dB(+5.1), no compression. Another 5 shows 103.5(+4.9), again no(realistically) compression. Another 5 dB increase in MV shows an increase of only 3.5 dB to 107. This indicates 1.5 dB of compression setting in at that frequency. Another sweep at higher level would have resulted in a lot more compression but I stopped the sweeps there because my amp can supply about twice as much power as that driver can handle and I do not run a limiter.
I went up to -2MV (105dB). Didn't want to crank MV any further, should the AVR clip. Sub trim not hot, set at -1.5dB, REW sent -22.0dBFS signal, MiniDSP/Sub EQ active and in mid damping/ext.

REW .mdat attached (zip file)
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UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
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Old 01-26-2016, 12:19 PM
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what can I conclude about my sub playing up to 105dB? in terms of compression? distortion? etc.?

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
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Old 01-26-2016, 12:22 PM
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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread

I'll take a look when I get home. Can't make out the graph on my phone. But you can go to the distortion tab to see how clean you are playing at each sweep level.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Old 01-26-2016, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by primetime74 View Post
Appreciate the responses, as mentioned I'm kind of a newb to the higher end audio. It appears the more I feel I've learned the less I know and the more difficult the decision becomes.

I've invested a good bit in my system, at least for me. I know it's not much in comparison to some of the systems here. That said, I want to get the most out of my system, so I rather spend the extra money if it will pay off rather than save. If there will not be too much difference then I rather save.

I already feel the bass from the ML Motion 40's during certain movie scenes despite them only going down to 40hrz.
Sub or subs make the greatest impact on audio, so don't cheap out on sub(s). I spent more on my 2 subs than all of my 7 speakers and receiver combined. I always like to use Avs member archaea's slogan 'Without subs, it's background music, with subs it's the main event'
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Old 01-26-2016, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I'll take a look when I get home. Can't make out the graph on my phone. But you can go to the distortion tab to see how clean you are playing at each sweep level.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Other than distortion in the 25Hz and under range, I have a hump centered at 60Hz, spanning 50-85Hz (peaking at 9.4% THD with 105dB sweep). It might be a nearby table stand holding my left surround speaker. I could hear that stand/speaker rattle once going into the louder stuff (85dB+). Also, the floor/walls shook, though not sure how much as I was wearing earplugs with 20dB of attenuation (the kind that let you hear speech and normal volume sounds clearly).

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Old 01-26-2016, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Sub or subs make the greatest impact on audio, so don't cheap out on sub(s).
+1

As a general rule of thumb, get more subwoofer than you feel is necessary. In short order you'll probably come to realize it wasn't too much, and instead turned out to be ideal.

If you take yourself too seriously, expect me to do the exact opposite
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Old 01-26-2016, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I went up to -2MV (105dB). Didn't want to crank MV any further, should the AVR clip. Sub trim not hot, set at -1.5dB, REW sent -22.0dBFS signal, MiniDSP/Sub EQ active and in mid damping/ext.

REW .mdat attached (zip file)
To record the correct absolute output, you want to set it to -3db FS in REW before taking measurements. I would only run sweeps from 18hz and up for your sub. After running your highest sweep before compression occurs, select this sweep and click on distortion button in REW, then place your cursor at 20hz, REW will show your distortion levels at 20hz down in the legend area. Now, place your cursor up at 25hz or more (any frequency >20hz) you will see distortion levels are greatly reduced except the null area.
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Old 01-26-2016, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
To record the correct absolute output, you want to set it to -3db FS in REW before taking measurements. I would only run sweeps from 18hz and up for your sub. After running your highest sweep before compression occurs, select this sweep and click on distortion button in REW, then place your cursor at 20hz, REW will show your distortion levels at 20hz down in the legend area. Now, place your cursor up at 25hz or more (any frequency >20hz) you will see distortion levels are greatly reduced except the null area.
I did -22dBFS because -12dBFS is the norm for most REW measurements and the LFE channel sent to the AVR adds +10dB, so -22dBFS compensates for that.

Any reason for measuring from 18Hz? The tuning frequency is 19Hz.

Also, if I wanted to calculate what MV setting on my AVR is reference level based on these measurements, how would I do that?

(Based on -2MV producing 105dB at the LFE channel when fed a -22dBFS signal.)
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Old 01-26-2016, 01:54 PM
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Would -11MV produce 115dB with a -3dBFS signal from REW? Is my math correct? Making -11MV reference level on my Yamaha AVR?

(Assuming the sub could actually reach that level without compression and without the MiniDSP input clipping).
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Old 01-26-2016, 02:19 PM
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^^ if your receiver calibrated everything correctly, measuring in REW with -3db FS at 0MV will have your FR sitting around 115db for lfe channel and 105db for speaker. If you want to verify your absolute level accuracy and don't want to be loud, set your MV at -30 and measure with -3db FS in REW should yield your FR around 85db for lfe and 75db for speaker. As of starting measuring at 18hz, 1hz below tune is to see if you have any room gain below tune and to see where it actually rolls off in your room. My FV tune is 12hz but my f3 point in my room is down to 10hz.

Edit: 0MV on Denon Avr is reference. Not sure about Yamaha and others.
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Old 01-26-2016, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ if your receiver calibrated everything correctly, measuring in REW with -3db FS at 0MV will have your FR sitting around 115db for lfe channel and 105db for speaker. If you want to verify your absolute level accuracy and don't want to be loud, set your MV at -30 and measure with -3db FS in REW should yield your FR around 85db for lfe and 75db for speaker. As of starting measuring at 18hz, 1hz below tune is to see if you have any room gain below tune and to see where it actually rolls off in your room. My FV tune is 12hz but my f3 point in my room is down to 10hz.

Edit: 0MV on Denon Avr is reference. Not sure about Yamaha and others.
Ok, thanks

My Yamaha doesn't calibrate 0MV to reference level, it just leaves the front left speaker trim at 0.0dB and adjusts the other trims to match the front left speaker. I think all Yamahas are like this but not sure. Maybe Bond or someone else with a newer Yamaha can comment.

However, for the compression sweeps the main goal for me was to see how much output I have at 20Hz before compression. The results show minor compression at 105dB.

What is more significant is distortion increases at 20Hz and something going on around 60Hz which is likely nearby furniture/speakers/etc. rattling.
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Old 01-26-2016, 02:37 PM
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Also, should I start all sweeps involving the sub at 18Hz or only the stuff past 85dB or so?
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Old 01-26-2016, 02:53 PM
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The thing is I don't know if that 105db is accurate. How about making a note of what volume give you graph centered at 75db for speaker and 85db for lfe using -3db FS in REW, then you know what MV on your Yamaha is reference. From here, you can start the sweep to record the highest one right before it compresses to know your safe level. If you run bass hotter, you need to factor that in as well as about 3-5db bass redirecting from speakers.
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Old 01-26-2016, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
The thing is I don't know if that 105db is accurate. How about making a note of what volume give you graph centered at 75db for speaker and 85db for lfe using -3db FS in REW, then you know what MV on your Yamaha is reference. From here, you can start the sweep to record the highest one right before it compresses to know your safe level. If you run bass hotter, you need to factor that in as well as about 3-5db bass redirecting from speakers.
Ok, I can do that another day.

here's a corrected graph that starts at 18Hz and assumes -10MV produces 105dB for LFE (just to make things look more normal to Audyssey users):
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UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
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Old 01-26-2016, 03:02 PM
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^ do I have room gain?

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Old 01-26-2016, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

I placed the cursor at 20 Hz so the legend shows the output at that frequency for each sweep. You can see it starts at 93.5 dB. A 5 dB increase in MV shows 98.6 dB(+5.1), no compression. Another 5 shows 103.5(+4.9), again no(realistically) compression. Another 5 dB increase in MV shows an increase of only 3.5 dB to 107. This indicates 1.5 dB of compression setting in at that frequency. Another sweep at higher level would have resulted in a lot more compression but I stopped the sweeps there because my amp can supply about twice as much power as that driver can handle and I do not run a limiter.

The reason you have that 1.5db compression is because the voice coil has heated up to high temperature. If you continue to drive more, voice coil will get even hotter. But what is important is that the temperature does not come down in a snap. So that 1.5db compression is going to have effect for some time even though you drop the signal level to 90db at 10hz. That is, the supposedly 90db output will only get 90-1.5=88.5db. That is what I call thermal memory effect. This type of compression is different from say port compression which can recover immediately when the signal level drops.
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Old 01-26-2016, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Sub or subs make the greatest impact on audio, so don't cheap out on sub(s). I spent more on my 2 subs than all of my 7 speakers and receiver combined. I always like to use Avs member archaea's slogan 'Without subs, it's background music, with subs it's the main event'
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+1

As a general rule of thumb, get more subwoofer than you feel is necessary. In short order you'll probably come to realize it wasn't too much, and instead turned out to be ideal.
Ok, you guys got me. I rather be safe than sorry. I will look into the '15 subs, not sure which just yet. I would still like to keep the budget around $900 though. Ideally I'd love the F15HP but at least for the time being that's not an option. I will look into the LVX15, although I think I want more amp if I'm going to be investing that much money.
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Old 01-26-2016, 05:08 PM
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Also, should I start all sweeps involving the sub at 18Hz or only the stuff past 85dB or so?
Nothing wrong with starting the sweep at 10 Hz...your subs natural roll off and limiter will protect, and you still have usable output near and below tune.

You look compression free @ 105 dB down to 25 Hz or so. At 20 Hz, you have 1.5 dB of compression. So if you are watching something that calls for 105 dB output at 20 Hz, you should get it with little to no compression....a sine wave sweep is tougher than real world content. You should be very accurate up to -15 on movies even with the sub a bit hot. IMO. Having said that....a sealed sub with enough output to be flat to 10 Hz would improve things a bit on movies. Maybe not enough to be worth it though. Good performance for the price if you ask me.
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Old 01-26-2016, 05:27 PM
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Nothing wrong with starting the sweep at 10 Hz...your subs natural roll off and limiter will protect, and you still have usable output near and below tune.

You look compression free @ 105 dB down to 25 Hz or so. At 20 Hz, you have 1.5 dB of compression. So if you are watching something that calls for 105 dB output at 20 Hz, you should get it with little to no compression....a sine wave sweep is tougher than real world content. You should be very accurate up to -15 on movies even with the sub a bit hot. IMO. Having said that....a sealed sub with enough output to be flat to 10 Hz would improve things a bit on movies. Maybe not enough to be worth it though. Good performance for the price if you ask me.
Sounds good, thanks for the feedback... any comments on the distortion tab of the attached .mdat?

Specifically, whatever is going on around 60Hz?
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Old 01-26-2016, 05:36 PM
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what can I conclude about my sub playing up to 105dB? in terms of compression? distortion? etc.?

Two guesses, and just guesses, I wouldn't take these to the bank. My first guess is that there is some positive eq applied in this area to flatten things out, resulting in some distortion setting in earlier in this area. I know you have a miniDSP and only use it to cut(?) but what about PEQ on the sub or does your AVR apply any room correction to the sub?

Other guess would be that the room is causing some issues in this region with ringing or something? Maybe Brian could weigh in here.

I assume this a sub only sweep, so no chance that your speakers are playing any part in this?
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Old 01-26-2016, 05:59 PM
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Two guesses, and just guesses, I wouldn't take these to the bank. My first guess is that there is some positive eq applied in this area to flatten things out, resulting in some distortion setting in earlier in this area. I know you have a miniDSP and only use it to cut(?) but what about PEQ on the sub or does your AVR apply any room correction to the sub?

Other guess would be that the room is causing some issues in this region with ringing or something? Maybe Brian could weigh in here.

I assume this a sub only sweep, so no chance that your speakers are playing any part in this?
I'm not applying any boost overall but there is one filter in the MiniDSP that boosts a lot around 60Hz. However, when looking at the summed response of all filters in the MiniDSP, there is zero boost at 60Hz and cuts on both sides.

Also, I'm using no EQ in the AVR and my sub doesn't have PEQ on its amp.

Room is my guess too.

Measure is sub only, LFE.

I can post the filters I'm using if that helps.
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Old 01-26-2016, 06:07 PM
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here's the filter info:
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UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
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Old 01-26-2016, 06:10 PM
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MiniDSP summed filter response:
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Last edited by PlasmaPZ80U; 01-26-2016 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 01-26-2016, 06:16 PM
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^ on second glance, it may be the boosting filter as the MiniDSP correction and the distortion graph look suspiciously similar.

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Old 01-26-2016, 10:44 PM
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Only if the crossover in your AVR is set that high. If you have it at 80Hz you're getting absolutely no output at 200Hz.
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If you have the crossover set relatively high - say 100Hz - and are using the default 12dB you're down the full 12dB by 200Hz, making that output completely inaudible. The only way you would have anything you could hear at 200Hz would be if the crossover was set for 150Hz, and even that would probably be imperceptible.
Not true at all. On my F12s, I can easily hear the sounds playing up to 200hz when using LFE IN.

The only time the sounds become inaudible is when they fall to the level of the noise floor of your room, or close to it. You said it yourself - with a 100hz crossover, you're only 12db down by 200Hz. That means at a 95db level, you're getting 200hz sounds playing at 83db. And you're still getting 300hz frequencies playing at 71db. That is clearly in the audible range, and is why I changed to Line In combined with the 24/80 setting. My subs now drop down to 45db at 200hz. Now I have increased my subs headroom by about 2db because they are playing a narrower range of frequencies, and eliminating those upper frequencies cleaned up the sound very nicely. It just sounds better when your subs and speakers have less overlap, where they are both playing at the same time.
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by david8613 View Post
I currently am auditioning the svs prime satelites with svs pb 2000 just waiting on speaker wires, The build qaulity is really nice. I was also looking at getting the wavecrest hvl1 bookshelf and pairing it with one of the rythmik 15" portred subs. Im wondering how much better this set up might sound. Anyone ever compare both head to head?
The sound quality of Rythmik subs is very different from most others, including SVS. With Rythmik, you're going to hear a lot more texture and detail in the low frequency effects in movies and more accurate instruments in music. For speakers in a similar price range, I would add to your shopping list the EMP R5Bi. I think they will really surprise you. If you like a more laid back midrange, look at the Chane A1-rxc.
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Robto View Post
IMO the "extra 5 Hz" is pretty much meaningless.
1) We don't hear below 20 Hz.
2) Yes, I know you can "feel" below 20 Hz, but
3) the -3 dB point is a very arbitrary standard, you will still get extension below this point with any sub, and
4) room gain will add a bit in any case: the in-room characteristics of both subs will be different from the empty space measurements.

There may be other reasons to spend that $230 (more output, maybe, if you're a real bass-head?), but don't spend it for the 5 Hz.
Do it for the sound quality. That alone is the biggest selling point for me.

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A little R&R: Reaction Audio CX-10 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
And a pair of Emotiva Airmotiv 5s
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
As a general rule of thumb it's a good idea to buy a subwoofer that may initially seem to be a bit more than required. As time goes on most people come to the realization that "extra" wasn't really extra at all, and in the end it turns out to be closer to their ideal.
This is exactly what happened when I sprung for F12s over L12s. I ended up making really good use of all of the features including the PEQ and slope settings and am very pleased with the result. I wouldn't have been able to dial in my system as finely without the extra controls.

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Denon AVR-X4000
A little R&R: Reaction Audio CX-10 (2) | Rythmik Audio F12 (2)
And a pair of Emotiva Airmotiv 5s
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Old 01-27-2016, 06:23 AM
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Not true at all. On my F12s, I can easily hear the sounds playing up to 200hz when using LFE IN.

The only time the sounds become inaudible is when they fall to the level of the noise floor of your room, or close to it. You said it yourself - with a 100hz crossover, you're only 12db down by 200Hz. That means at a 95db level, you're getting 200hz sounds playing at 83db. And you're still getting 300hz frequencies playing at 71db. That is clearly in the audible range, and is why I changed to Line In combined with the 24/80 setting. My subs now drop down to 45db at 200hz. Now I have increased my subs headroom by about 2db because they are playing a narrower range of frequencies, and eliminating those upper frequencies cleaned up the sound very nicely. It just sounds better when your subs and speakers have less overlap, where they are both playing at the same time.
If you put your ear right up to the sub driver, and don't have the speakers playing, then perhaps there's something audible at 12dB down. But sitting in your chair with 5 or more speakers going as well? Not happening. With all the sound coming from the speakers and subwoofer(s) that is in the audible range anything that far off is beyond a persons ability to discern. Our acuity is simply not that advanced.

If you're listening at a level of 95dB then something playing at 83dB will be inaudible, regardless of where the noise floor is (because that will be even further down from the loudest sounds, so it won't factor in). Reverse that and your example would be true; if your noise floor is 71dB and you play a tone at 83dB then for sure it will be heard. To further that point, if you do have a 71dB noise floor and you're listening to music at 83dB do you hear anything that contributes to the noise floor itself? You don't, but no one can because it's 12dB below the output level of the music.
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Old 01-27-2016, 06:55 AM
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Do it for the sound quality. That alone is the biggest selling point for me.
The SQ of all Rythmik subs is highly similar, especially 30Hz and up. And the LVX12 doesn't have more amp features/controls than the LV12R. To get the F12 level of amp control/features, the FV15HP is the only ported option with that today.

So, basically, getting the LVX12 over the LV12R for SQ wouldn't really make sense.

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Rythmik LV12R; PS4, Xbox One, Motorola RNG150N
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f12g subwoofer , lv12r , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub
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