Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 763 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!



Forum Jump: 
 2214Likes
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-24-2016, 02:38 PM
Member
 
benhacker22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 34
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
There's a lot of hype in power numbers and how much it matters. What really matters is max clean SPL, which is a function of driver parameters and cabinet size (volume), and in this case the servo circuit also helps. Power alone is a pretty meaningless spec. Check out some of the other reviews that compare some of the other Rythmik models to other products. While ultimately power matters for max SPL, Rythmik puts out SPL levels comparable to much higher-power amplifiers.

Putting a 1200 HP Evinrude engine on a rowboat does not a speedboat make.
It is interesting to see how power (watts) doesn't always translate into more output. Data-Bass is used quite often to compare subwoofer performance. It is amazing that the FV15HP
1-port mode (600 watts) can output as much as the Paradigm Signature Sub 2 that has 4000 Watts (and a hefty price tag). The Paradigm is no slouch, but the FV15HP gets almost 2db more output from 16 to 31.5 Hz (output is higher for Paradigm above 50 HZ). Both are great subs, but this verifies what is bolded above from Don.
grigorianvlad likes this.

Receiver - Yamaha
Sub - Rythmik FVX-15

Last edited by benhacker22; 02-24-2016 at 02:47 PM.
benhacker22 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-24-2016, 02:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
grigorianvlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,471
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked: 605
Thanks, Don. This image is from Enrico's setup. What is this dial "Bandwith" for PEQ setup? As I understand it, if you have a spike of 3dB at lets say 50Hz in your room, you can lower it by 3dB with the Gain dial, but what does the Bandwidth do? Widens the frequency to 40hz-60hz or even wider, lets say 30hz-70hz? I have never seen this option. My current Sunfires have autoequalization (adjustable) or manual, on four frequencies.
I am all divided on these bells-n-whistles. From one perspective it is good to have all that if your room has multiple spikes. On the other hand all these additional electronics make the sub less time-aligned from the mains as they take time, granted, milliseconds, but our ears are unbelievably sensitive to misaligned audio signals. So, this toggle switch on the Rythmik that switches PEQ off completely is useful. I cant do that with the Sunfires.

DAC: Wyred4Sound DAC1LE || BD Player: Pioneer Elite BDP-41FD || Processor: Marantz AV8801 11.2 Ch || Power Amps: ARC VS110, Emotiva XPR-2 (600W), Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 & UPA-500 (200W/80W) || L/R Speakers: Eminent LFT-8b , Magnepan 2.7, Center : Polk LSiM-704C, Sur: Polk LSiM-703 || Sub 1: Rythmik F25 (800W). Sub 2: Sunfire True Signature TS-EQ12 (2,700W) || Cables: MIT terminator 2 Biwire, 4, Exp; Cardas Crosslink || Power: Panamax M5300 || HP: HifiMan HE560
grigorianvlad is offline  
Old 02-24-2016, 03:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 9,101
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1562 Post(s)
Liked: 1090
PEQ = Parametric EQualizer

A typical graphical equalizer has fixed filter bands (fixed frequency and width) and you can only adjust the gain. A PEQ allows you to adjust center frequency, width, and gain. So if you have a broader hump you can tame it, and if you have a narrow peak you can bring it down without suppressing nearby frequencies. Much more powerful than a simple graphical EQ.

Rythmik includes a single-band PEQ and is a great tool for helping adjust a peak in the sub region. You typically only have one major peak and null before moving into the midbass so a single PEQ can help a lot.

In your case, I would start by ignoring it, using the sub in AVR mode, and letting Audyssey XT32 do its thing. Plenty of time to read up on all the extra features later. XT32 added a gob (technical term) of filters in the bass region to help correct ini-room response.

Rythmik does not include any sort of auto-tune feature; that would add much to the price and most of us do not need it.

Another useful feature is the continuous phase (delay) adjustment Rythmik offers. I find that to be incredibly useful, especially with multiple subs, as the phase shift at the crossover can be large since the filters are rolling off. Plus with multiple subs you in general need different phase alignment for each sub. You can look up filter responses on Wikipedia but getting the phase wrong at the crossover is IME/IMO a primary reason for not getting subs and mains integrated properly. A small phase error can introduce a big hole in the sound. It also takes a lot of filter taps to correct a large phase shift; having that knob can sometimes be a lifesaver. Again, your 8801 should do the trick for you, and I would start with that. You can go down the measure and tweak rabbit hole later.

HTH - Don
grigorianvlad likes this.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
Old 02-24-2016, 04:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
grigorianvlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,471
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked: 605
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
I recognize your "name" from somewhere, it being so unusual. Anyway, I see you're an ET LFT-8b owner. Likewise.
I have never heard of the ET LFT-8b's until you mentioned them on Magnepan forum. I got obsessed by the concept and after a few months decided to buy them. Actually, my wife bought them for me. This in no way raises their WAF factor (Wife Antagonization Factor for the ET, Wife Acceptance Factor for any other brand). So, I'd like to thank you for recommending them as an alternative to the Maggies or ML's. They are truly unique speakers not only from a technical point, but in the way they sound. Completely transparent and natural.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
You should be very happy with the ET's and an F25, but it being a single you'll probably need to x/o pretty low, no higher than 80Hz, with as steep a filter as possible (24dB if you can).
Please explain what you meant by 24dB filter. I didn't quite get that part. In any case, the ET's and Maggies (I use a parallel setup with both pairs driven by different power amps) are crossovered at 40hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
If you want to go real nuts, you can use the F25 from, say, 40Hz down, and add a pair of the Rythmik/GR Research OB/Dipole subs as woofers for the ET's.
Does Rythmik even make dipole subs? I thought those only use dipole drivers to minimize enclosure vibrations and increase SPL, but otherwise they have no effect on SQ.

In any case, BDP24, I am very happy with the ET's. A few people auditioned them in my house and ALL are buying them in a month or two (tax returns permitting).

DAC: Wyred4Sound DAC1LE || BD Player: Pioneer Elite BDP-41FD || Processor: Marantz AV8801 11.2 Ch || Power Amps: ARC VS110, Emotiva XPR-2 (600W), Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 & UPA-500 (200W/80W) || L/R Speakers: Eminent LFT-8b , Magnepan 2.7, Center : Polk LSiM-704C, Sur: Polk LSiM-703 || Sub 1: Rythmik F25 (800W). Sub 2: Sunfire True Signature TS-EQ12 (2,700W) || Cables: MIT terminator 2 Biwire, 4, Exp; Cardas Crosslink || Power: Panamax M5300 || HP: HifiMan HE560
grigorianvlad is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 04:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
BDP24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,117
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Liked: 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post
I have never heard of the ET LFT-8b's until you mentioned them on Magnepan forum. I got obsessed by the concept and after a few months decided to buy them. Actually, my wife bought them for me. This in no way raises their WAF factor (Wife Antagonization Factor for the ET, Wife Acceptance Factor for any other brand). So, I'd like to thank you for recommending them as an alternative to the Maggies or ML's. They are truly unique speakers not only from a technical point, but in the way they sound. Completely transparent and natural.



Please explain what you meant by 24dB filter. I didn't quite get that part. In any case, the ET's and Maggies (I use a parallel setup with both pairs driven by different power amps) are crossovered at 40hz.



Does Rythmik even make dipole subs? I thought those only use dipole drivers to minimize enclosure vibrations and increase SPL, but otherwise they have no effect on SQ.

In any case, BDP24, I am very happy with the ET's. A few people auditioned them in my house and ALL are buying them in a month or two (tax returns permitting).

Ah, okay, it was on the Magnepan forum I saw your forum name! Glad you like the ET's---they're a great value too.


The 24dB filter is a choice of settings on the Rythmik plate amp that will be in your F25, 12dB/octave being the other. If you were crossing over at 80Hz, you would want the filter slope to be steeper (to bring the sub's output down as fast as possible) than it can be at the 40Hz you will be using. At 40Hz, the 12dB filter will be fine.


The OB/Dipole Sub is a product co-designed by Rythmik's Brian Ding and Danny Richie of Gr Research, and is sold as a DIY kit only. The kit includes two 12" woofers optimized for OB use, and a Rythmik A370 plate amp with a shelving circuit installed to counteract the low-end roll-off found in all OB woofers. The kit is installed in frame that needs to be built---or have built---by the consumer. Go further back in this Rythmik thread to read more about it.


As for the "only" 400 watts available for each woofer in the F25, this has been discussed and explained many times on this thread, the last time being only a few days ago. As has been noted, an amp's output, taken in isolation, means NOTHING. It is only in relation to the sensitivity/efficiency of the woofer itself that the power rating of an amp has any meaning. The Rythmik woofers have a higher sensitivity/efficiency rating than most other woofers, making them able to produce the same SPL as other woofers with less power. For every 3dB of higher s/e, half as much power is required to produce the same SPL That can add up quick; 6dB higher s/e = 1/4 the power required, 9dB = 1/8 the power. All for the same SPL!
grigorianvlad likes this.
BDP24 is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 05:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
grigorianvlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,471
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked: 605
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
As for the "only" 400 watts available for each woofer in the F25, this has been discussed and explained many times on this thread, the last time being only a few days ago.
Makes sense, thanks. I am glad I found this thread, I've learned many things here. Cant wait to unpack the F25 next Thursday.

DAC: Wyred4Sound DAC1LE || BD Player: Pioneer Elite BDP-41FD || Processor: Marantz AV8801 11.2 Ch || Power Amps: ARC VS110, Emotiva XPR-2 (600W), Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 & UPA-500 (200W/80W) || L/R Speakers: Eminent LFT-8b , Magnepan 2.7, Center : Polk LSiM-704C, Sur: Polk LSiM-703 || Sub 1: Rythmik F25 (800W). Sub 2: Sunfire True Signature TS-EQ12 (2,700W) || Cables: MIT terminator 2 Biwire, 4, Exp; Cardas Crosslink || Power: Panamax M5300 || HP: HifiMan HE560
grigorianvlad is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 07:30 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Hey guys,

In a month, i'll be looking at getting a Rythmik sub. Thinking i'll go with the L12 as i'm in a 650sq.ft condo, and i need it to be compact.
I've currently got a NAD C320BEE with no bass management powering PSB X2T Towers. The speaker frequency response is 30-23,000Hz (On Axis @ 0°±3dB).

Now here's my dilemma. With the L12, i'll have to feed it a line level input from my amps pre-out. So theoretically, I would have to set the crossover on the sub to about 30-40Hz right?

Enrico from Rythmik told me that the F12 with a A370PEQ amp has a High pass filter out via RCA set at 80Hz. So this will allow my speakers to cross over to the sub a 80Hz and let the sub handle everything below. I'm assuming this is the better option, but it is 300USD more, and i'm in Canada so that's about 400CAD more.

I'm also thinking about slowly moving to a Home theater set up in about a year or two while i save up so that would make the F12's amp redundant.

I mostly listen to music that digs pretty deep (Trance, Deep house, some techno and hip-hop). Would the L12 work for me for now? I'd rather save that money and put it towards a center and a receiver in a year.

Would the L12 even make much of a difference to my current set up if crossed over at 40ish Hz, Or would I be better off waiting to add a sub till I get an AVR?
I could hold off on the sub, as the bass in my music sounds pretty good, but just missing a bit of that really low bass. I definitely notice this more when watching movies, but i think that has more to do with that fact that movies are designed with a AVR and sub in mind and those low frequencies don't seem to be properly included in the stereo soundtrack. I could be wrong though.

Any advice would be appreciated!

NAD D1050 > NAD C320BEE / MiniDSP 2x4 > PSB X2T's / Rythmik FVX15
dcolaco is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 07:49 AM
Advanced Member
 
healthnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 503
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 294 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcolaco View Post
Hey guys,



In a month, i'll be looking at getting a Rythmik sub. Thinking i'll go with the L12 as i'm in a 650sq.ft condo, and i need it to be compact.

I've currently got a NAD C320BEE with no bass management powering PSB X2T Towers. The speaker frequency response is 30-23,000Hz (On Axis @ 0°±3dB).



Now here's my dilemma. With the L12, i'll have to feed it a line level input from my amps pre-out. So theoretically, I would have to set the crossover on the sub to about 30-40Hz right?



Enrico from Rythmik told me that the F12 with a A370PEQ amp has a High pass filter out via RCA set at 80Hz. So this will allow my speakers to cross over to the sub a 80Hz and let the sub handle everything below. I'm assuming this is the better option, but it is 300USD more, and i'm in Canada so that's about 400CAD more.



I'm also thinking about slowly moving to a Home theater set up in about a year or two while i save up so that would make the F12's amp redundant.



I mostly listen to music that digs pretty deep (Trance, Deep house, some techno and hip-hop). Would the L12 work for me for now? I'd rather save that money and put it towards a center and a receiver in a year.



Would the L12 even make much of a difference to my current set up if crossed over at 40ish Hz, Or would I be better off waiting to add a sub till I get an AVR?

I could hold off on the sub, as the bass in my music sounds pretty good, but just missing a bit of that really low bass. I definitely notice this more when watching movies, but i think that has more to do with that fact that movies are designed with a AVR and sub in mind and those low frequencies don't seem to be properly included in the stereo soundtrack. I could be wrong though.



Any advice would be appreciated!

I think it would make a significant difference. You could also consider using an active crossover for bass management, such as DBX. I actually have a multichannel Outlaw active crossover I'm not currently using I could give you a good deal on, if you're interested, just pm me. Personally, though, I can't get enough bass and the quality of the Rythmik subs is hard to beat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
healthnut is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 07:57 AM
Member
 
ergopower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
though I have veered sideways now and then
Don, from your posts, originally you had a pair of L12s crossed over to your Maggies individually as a stereo pair. Now you run all your subs as x.1. Just curious why? You had commented that you preferred the ambiance from the stereo setup.

Brian
ergopower is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 08:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 9,101
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1562 Post(s)
Liked: 1090
There are other features of the F12 amp that can be of benefit even with an AVR, and most especially if you ever contemplate getting a second subwoofer. Personally I'd rather get the best I can afford at the time and not (a) regretting or playing the "I wonder if" game, and (b) having to buy a better one later. That said any of Rythmik's subs are a fine choice.

As to the crossover, I can count on one hand (OK, maybe two, over all the years) the speakers I felt would not benefit from having the deep bass diverted from them. Deep bass is by far the highest-power signal supplied to a speaker and that makes the amplifier and speaker all work harder. Distortion gets high (often very, very high) from a speaker driven hard and that is almost always in the low bass region. Adding a crossover can clean up the entire audio spectrum since the main speakers no longer have to deal with large signals and the subwoofer can do its job at providing clean, loud, low-frequency sound.

All that said, if your NAD does not have preamp in/out jacks, you may not be able to roll off the low frequencies to your main speakers. You'd need a new AVR, or external crossover (built into the sub or not) and external amplifier for the main speakers.

IME/IMO - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 08:18 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I think it would make a significant difference. You could also consider using an active crossover for bass management, such as DBX. I actually have a multichannel Outlaw active crossover I'm not currently using I could give you a good deal on, if you're interested, just pm me. Personally, though, I can't get enough bass and the quality of the Rythmik subs is hard to beat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah i have considered getting an active crossover, but with the plan to move to an AVR when i am able to build a full system, I'm not too sure how much i want to keep investing in my stereo set up. I think what i'm going to do is get the L12 and if i feel like i need better bass management, i will look into getting a crossover for cheap. I'm in Toronto so shipping could get pricey if you're in the states but i will keep you in mind. I've seen a few used ones on sale for about 100 to 200 on Canuckaudiomart.

Another question i have is the sub placement. I know it depends on my room and how it sounds, but would it be bad to place the sub about 8 feet behind my seating position. See the picture attached. The red squares are my possible sub locations. Ideally by the bed would be perfect, and i could use it as a side table . I wont keep anything on it when in use however, but it seems like it'll be out of the way. the long wall with the speakers is pretty cramped as we have a table, and an aquarium etc and the girlfriends been awesome about my stuff taking up most of the room in that area so that back wall would be ideal. It could also go in the corner of that back wall. I'll have to play around with the location but i'm curious if a sub that far behind would cause problems.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	room layout.jpg
Views:	37
Size:	30.8 KB
ID:	1278001  

NAD D1050 > NAD C320BEE / MiniDSP 2x4 > PSB X2T's / Rythmik FVX15
dcolaco is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 08:22 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

All that said, if your NAD does not have preamp in/out jacks, you may not be able to roll off the low frequencies to your main speakers. You'd need a new AVR, or external crossover (built into the sub or not) and external amplifier for the main speakers.

IME/IMO - Don
It does have a pre-amp out and then a main in, so i would be able to crossover the frequencies to the main speakers using an active crossover.

NAD D1050 > NAD C320BEE / MiniDSP 2x4 > PSB X2T's / Rythmik FVX15

Last edited by dcolaco; 02-25-2016 at 08:27 AM.
dcolaco is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 08:28 AM
Advanced Member
 
healthnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 503
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 294 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcolaco View Post
Yeah i have considered getting an active crossover, but with the plan to move to an AVR when i am able to build a full system, I'm not too sure how much i want to keep investing in my stereo set up. I think what i'm going to do is get the L12 and if i feel like i need better bass management, i will look into getting a crossover for cheap. I'm in Toronto so shipping could get pricey if you're in the states but i will keep you in mind. I've seen a few used ones on sale for about 100 to 200 on Canuckaudiomart.



Another question i have is the sub placement. I know it depends on my room and how it sounds, but would it be bad to place the sub about 8 feet behind my seating position. See the picture attached. The red squares are my possible sub locations. Ideally by the bed would be perfect, and i could use it as a side table . I wont keep anything on it when in use however, but it seems like it'll be out of the way. the long wall with the speakers is pretty cramped as we have a table, and an aquarium etc and the girlfriends been awesome about my stuff taking up most of the room in that area so that back wall would be ideal. It could also go in the corner of that back wall. I'll have to play around with the location but i'm curious if a sub that far behind would cause problems.

Of your placement options, the one closest to your mains or the mid wall placement would most likely be best. The closer to the mains, the less phase issues, and the mid wall placement is recommended by experts such as Floyd Toole. So you could experiment with these two and select the one with the smoothest response and greatest output. Crossing over at 80 HZ is also recommended. Hope this helps, and best of luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
healthnut is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 08:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,133
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 729 Post(s)
Liked: 729
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcolaco View Post
Hey guys,

In a month, i'll be looking at getting a Rythmik sub. Thinking i'll go with the L12 as i'm in a 650sq.ft condo, and i need it to be compact.
I've currently got a NAD C320BEE with no bass management powering PSB X2T Towers. The speaker frequency response is 30-23,000Hz (On Axis @ 0°±3dB).

Now here's my dilemma. With the L12, i'll have to feed it a line level input from my amps pre-out. So theoretically, I would have to set the crossover on the sub to about 30-40Hz right?

Enrico from Rythmik told me that the F12 with a A370PEQ amp has a High pass filter out via RCA set at 80Hz. So this will allow my speakers to cross over to the sub a 80Hz and let the sub handle everything below. I'm assuming this is the better option, but it is 300USD more, and i'm in Canada so that's about 400CAD more.

I'm also thinking about slowly moving to a Home theater set up in about a year or two while i save up so that would make the F12's amp redundant.

I mostly listen to music that digs pretty deep (Trance, Deep house, some techno and hip-hop). Would the L12 work for me for now? I'd rather save that money and put it towards a center and a receiver in a year.

Would the L12 even make much of a difference to my current set up if crossed over at 40ish Hz, Or would I be better off waiting to add a sub till I get an AVR?
I could hold off on the sub, as the bass in my music sounds pretty good, but just missing a bit of that really low bass. I definitely notice this more when watching movies, but i think that has more to do with that fact that movies are designed with a AVR and sub in mind and those low frequencies don't seem to be properly included in the stereo soundtrack. I could be wrong though.

Any advice would be appreciated!
Your NAD C320BEE does not have pre outs so the L12 won't work in your situation because the L12 does not have speaker level inputs. However the NAD C320BEE does have a MAIN OUT and MAIN IN (loop) that right now they are in link mode because you don't have external EQ or processor. If you take the link out of the MAIN IN/OUT you won't get any sound out of the Integrated because you are breaking the loop. In your case the only subwoofer that would work is the F12 with A370PEQ amp (with HPF out). To make the F12 work in your setup you have to take the links out of the MAIN IN/OUT RCAs and use the MAIN OUT to send signal to the F12 LINE IN. Then get the signal back to the NAD MAIN IN from the HPF OUT on the F12. In this case the signal back to the NAD would be high pass filtered @ 80Hz. Another option but more expensive is to get an external amp and use the MAIN OUT to send signal to the external amp and to the subwoofer as well using a RCA "Y" splitter. In this case the L12 or any other subwoofer would work.

Sorry, forgot to mention that with the F12 you have the option to use high level speaker inputs as well so you can crossover at 40Hz and run your speakers full range.



Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Polk LSiM705s, LSiM706C, LSiM703s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Marantz SR7008 | Parasound Halo P5 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Duet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |

Last edited by enricoclaudio; 02-25-2016 at 08:32 AM.
enricoclaudio is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 08:37 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Your NAD C320BEE does not have pre outs so the L12 won't work in your situation because the L12 does not have speaker level inputs. However the NAD C320BEE does have a MAIN OUT and MAIN IN (loop) that right now they are in link mode because you don't have external EQ or processor. If you take the link out of the MAIN IN/OUT you won't get any sound out of the Integrated because you are breaking the loop. In your case the only subwoofer that would work is the F12 with A370PEQ amp (with HPF out). To make the F12 work in your setup you have to take the links out of the MAIN IN/OUT RCAs and use the MAIN OUT to send signal to the F12 LINE IN. Then get the signal back to the NAD MAIN IN from the HPF OUT on the F12. In this case the signal back to the NAD would be high pass filtered @ 80Hz. Another option but more expensive is to get an external amp and use the MAIN OUT to send signal to the external amp and to the subwoofer as well using a RCA "Y" splitter. In this case the L12 or any other subwoofer would work.

Sorry, forgot to mention that with the F12 you have the option to use high level speaker inputs as well so you can crossover at 40Hz and run your speakers full range.
Hey Enrico. Can i not take out the jumper between the pre-out and main-in and use a y-splitter at the Pre-out to send one signal back into the main in (to power the speakers full range) and one to the sub at line level?

I know this is not ideal, but it is possible right?
Attached is a picture of the C320Bee
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	nad_320_bee.jpg
Views:	66
Size:	119.4 KB
ID:	1278041  

NAD D1050 > NAD C320BEE / MiniDSP 2x4 > PSB X2T's / Rythmik FVX15
dcolaco is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 08:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,133
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 729 Post(s)
Liked: 729
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcolaco View Post
Hey Enrico. Can i not take out the jumper between the pre-out and main-in and use a y-splitter at the Pre-out to send one signal back into the main in (to power the speakers full range) and one to the sub at line level?

I know this is not ideal, but it is possible right?
Attached is a picture of the C320Bee
Never thought about that, which makes total sense. It should work but just to be sure get an RCA "Y" splitter and try that before get the subwoofer. If that works then you can get the L12 for sure.



Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Polk LSiM705s, LSiM706C, LSiM703s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Marantz SR7008 | Parasound Halo P5 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Duet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
enricoclaudio is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 08:54 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 68
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Never thought about that, which makes total sense. It should work but just to be sure get an RCA "Y" splitter and try that before get the subwoofer. If that works then you can get the L12 for sure.
Yup good idea, i should test it. It would be nice to get the F12 and properly crossover my mains though. Even if it's just for a year until i move over to an AVR. But other than the amp section, in terms of performance, is it obvious that the F12 performs better? Like, when i get my AVR and set the crossover on there, would the F12 come out as the clear winner? I've been reading comparisons and most seem to say that it's not a very noticeable difference.

NAD D1050 > NAD C320BEE / MiniDSP 2x4 > PSB X2T's / Rythmik FVX15
dcolaco is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 09:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
healthnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 503
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 294 Post(s)
Liked: 148
I have discovered a 50 HZ null at my listening position while running frequency sweeps. It is down 12-15 db. I can't move back any further and my room is treated. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to best deal with this (short of sitting in the back row, where the response is much more even)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
healthnut is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 09:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,133
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 729 Post(s)
Liked: 729
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I have discovered a 50 HZ null at my listening position while running frequency sweeps. It is down 12-15 db. I can't move back any further and my room is treated. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to best deal with this (short of sitting in the back row, where the response is much more even)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The only way to fix a null like that is moving the subwoofer to another location or adding a second subwoofer to smooth the response in the room.



Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Polk LSiM705s, LSiM706C, LSiM703s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Marantz SR7008 | Parasound Halo P5 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Duet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
enricoclaudio is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 11:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 9,101
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1562 Post(s)
Liked: 1090
Quote:
Originally Posted by ergopower View Post
Don, from your posts, originally you had a pair of L12s crossed over to your Maggies individually as a stereo pair. Now you run all your subs as x.1. Just curious why? You had commented that you preferred the ambiance from the stereo setup.

Brian
F12's.

This will be long, sorry...

Why the change? It's complicated... There is the potential for bass cancellation and loss of some directionality using mono subs. Cancellation because, if the bass is for whatever reason not in phase in the L/R channels, then summing the two to a mono bass feed can lead to cancellation. That is very rare IME; most of the time the bass is (or is mixed to) mono anyway for various reasons. Directionality from two things, (1) crossover too high and/or slope too low (leading to significant energy well above the crossover frequency), and (2) potentially (been a while since I read the AES papers on this and I am not a current member) from the initial pressure wave applied to the speakers (e.g. the initial rush of air from a drum strike). Testing showed I am (was) sensitive to around 60 ~ 65 Hz for bass localization. My original system used a fairly high crossover and lower-order (12 dB/octave) so I could localize the bass. I put my single (DIY servo similar to Rythmik) sub in between before moving (much later) to stereo subs.

Fast forward a few years (decades, who counts? ) and now we have the HT revolution. While I had a number of AVRs (Yamaha, Sony, Denon) it was not until a few years ago that I got a dedicated media room and outfitted my more-or-less current system. The room is smaller than originally planned; we added a basement bedroom and associated hallway that not only sucked out a third of my floor space but also trashed my nice prime dimensions. Meaning I have some annoying doubled-up modes. I decided on stereo subs for historical (see above) technical and aesthetic reasons. My Pioneer Elite also had a quirk wherein LFE signals between the crossover point and upper end of the LFE spectrum were lost. The easy solution, sort-of, was to run stereo subs in parallel with the mains after an active crossover (set to ~60 Hz) so they looked like large speakers to the AVR. I played around with mono and stereo subs and frankly did not notice a difference, but after wiring in the crossover and all the amps left it alone. It sounded good.

When I moved to a processor last year (Emotiva XMC-1), it had options for mono, dual mono, or stereo subs. Naturally I tried all three. Did not really notice a difference. When I got another pair of subs (quest to resolve a room mode issue) I tried all three again, but setting up four subs was just way easier using a single mono output and tweaking phase on the subs, plus there are questions about the way multiple subs are handled by the processor (and by most processors, as it turns out). I could not hear any difference, or maybe thought I could once or twice but was never quite sure, and trying out different configurations and adjusting controls on the subs plus repeated runs of Dirac Live got to be way too time-consuming. So today mono it is!

It is also very possible that, in the primordial past, I did not take as much care in measurements (which took much more to do back then, no REW and USB mics), and the subs were not truly properly integrated. The vast majority of my time listening was using a single sub; stereo subs in my own system are a fairly recent thing. I set them up for others who could afford them, alas...

Now I am happy with my little quartet of F12's. I have a narrow null up around 150 Hz I am pretty sure I can fix if I ever get time to tweak again, but other than that the in-room response is pretty flat and 3 dB down around 7 Hz. I can live with that.

HTH - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 12:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 9,101
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1562 Post(s)
Liked: 1090
@healthnut :

If it is a room mode, moving the sub might not help, unless you move it near the listening position. Usually you must move the listening position or add a sub (or three ). The frequency of a null caused by a cancellation is set by room dimensions and not much else; moving away from the null or overdriving it with another sub are often the only viable solutions.

Room treatment can help, but at 50 Hz you'd need a lot of thick panels, very large diffusors, or special tuned panels to do much good. Probably not practical and/or cost-effective.

Rythmik offers a discount for the second (and more) sub, just sayin'...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 01:19 PM
Advanced Member
 
healthnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 503
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 294 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Thanks, Don. I actually have 2 subs, which I'm using for midbass (Rythmik FMB 8's). I've been experimenting this afternoon and got a good result moving the little subs a couple of feet out and toward the center. Now, 50 HZ measures the same in both rows. I'll be using the high extension setting and diverting from 50 HZ to the new monster 24" I just acquired.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
healthnut is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 01:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
healthnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 503
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 294 Post(s)
Liked: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
The only way to fix a null like that is moving the subwoofer to another location or adding a second subwoofer to smooth the response in the room.

Thanks for your input. I actually am using to Rythmik FMB 8's to supplement the bottom end of my Sierra 2's. I've been doing some testing, and I found if I moved the little subs out and a couple of feet and toward the center, I was able to get consistent results from both rows. All in all, a quick easy fix. Now it's time to integrate the Mariana 24 into the mix.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
healthnut is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 01:44 PM
Member
 
ergopower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
F12's.

This will be long, sorry...

Why the change? It's complicated... There is the potential for bass cancellation and loss of some directionality using mono subs. Cancellation because, if the bass is for whatever reason not in phase in the L/R channels, then summing the two to a mono bass feed can lead to cancellation. That is very rare IME; most of the time the bass is (or is mixed to) mono anyway for various reasons. Directionality from two things, (1) crossover too high and/or slope too low (leading to significant energy well above the crossover frequency), and (2) potentially (been a while since I read the AES papers on this and I am not a current member) from the initial pressure wave applied to the speakers (e.g. the initial rush of air from a drum strike). Testing showed I am (was) sensitive to around 60 ~ 65 Hz for bass localization. My original system used a fairly high crossover and lower-order (12 dB/octave) so I could localize the bass. I put my single (DIY servo similar to Rythmik) sub in between before moving (much later) to stereo subs.

Fast forward a few years (decades, who counts? ) and now we have the HT revolution. While I had a number of AVRs (Yamaha, Sony, Denon) it was not until a few years ago that I got a dedicated media room and outfitted my more-or-less current system. The room is smaller than originally planned; we added a basement bedroom and associated hallway that not only sucked out a third of my floor space but also trashed my nice prime dimensions. Meaning I have some annoying doubled-up modes. I decided on stereo subs for historical (see above) technical and aesthetic reasons. My Pioneer Elite also had a quirk wherein LFE signals between the crossover point and upper end of the LFE spectrum were lost. The easy solution, sort-of, was to run stereo subs in parallel with the mains after an active crossover (set to ~60 Hz) so they looked like large speakers to the AVR. I played around with mono and stereo subs and frankly did not notice a difference, but after wiring in the crossover and all the amps left it alone. It sounded good.

When I moved to a processor last year (Emotiva XMC-1), it had options for mono, dual mono, or stereo subs. Naturally I tried all three. Did not really notice a difference. When I got another pair of subs (quest to resolve a room mode issue) I tried all three again, but setting up four subs was just way easier using a single mono output and tweaking phase on the subs, plus there are questions about the way multiple subs are handled by the processor (and by most processors, as it turns out). I could not hear any difference, or maybe thought I could once or twice but was never quite sure, and trying out different configurations and adjusting controls on the subs plus repeated runs of Dirac Live got to be way too time-consuming. So today mono it is!

It is also very possible that, in the primordial past, I did not take as much care in measurements (which took much more to do back then, no REW and USB mics), and the subs were not truly properly integrated. The vast majority of my time listening was using a single sub; stereo subs in my own system are a fairly recent thing. I set them up for others who could afford them, alas...

Now I am happy with my little quartet of F12's. I have a narrow null up around 150 Hz I am pretty sure I can fix if I ever get time to tweak again, but other than that the in-room response is pretty flat and 3 dB down around 7 Hz. I can live with that.

HTH - Don
Don, thanks for the detailed reply. Still figuring out what I want to do at some point when I upgrade from my current sub. There is a lot of added cost in the stereo setup (e.g. 2 x F12 + MiniDSP vs 1 F15 managed by AVR). For sure pop music has bass summed to mono, but some large classical works are stereo. If it's very hard to hear the difference, I think I'll take the easy way out.

Brian
ergopower is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 03:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 9,101
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1562 Post(s)
Liked: 1090
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Thanks, Don. I actually have 2 subs, which I'm using for midbass (Rythmik FMB 8's). I've been experimenting this afternoon and got a good result moving the little subs a couple of feet out and toward the center. Now, 50 HZ measures the same in both rows. I'll be using the high extension setting and diverting from 50 HZ to the new monster 24" I just acquired.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good news! Yes, with two subs you should be able to move them so as to cancel the null.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 03:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 9,101
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1562 Post(s)
Liked: 1090
Quote:
Originally Posted by ergopower View Post
Don, thanks for the detailed reply. Still figuring out what I want to do at some point when I upgrade from my current sub. There is a lot of added cost in the stereo setup (e.g. 2 x F12 + MiniDSP vs 1 F15 managed by AVR). For sure pop music has bass summed to mono, but some large classical works are stereo. If it's very hard to hear the difference, I think I'll take the easy way out.

Brian
I do not have measurements to back this up, and some authors and posters I respect disagree with my opinion, so take with block of salt. Most pop sums to mono, and some jazz, most classical is stereo but IME at the mic it ends up being essentially mono anyway for virtually everything. The mics are usually close enough that the bass arrives at the same time when you consider the wavelengths involved. The only time I have heard issues is when the mics are spaced widely or there are multiple mics. The former is pretty rare and even then again the bass signal at the mics seems to be in phase, and multiple mics are usually either for ambiance (a don't care) or close-mic'd instruments (ditto). I took some recordings that I thought it would matter, and it didn't, so for now am sticking with mono. I had my external crossover in and out of the system and cables swapped around so many times I got dizzy... I have one final tweak I need to do to fix the little spike null (way over the sub's crossover frequency and does not appear in all my previous measurements; think I have a filter issue I can pretty easily fix) but I am done messing with the subs. I have more and better bass than I've ever had, especially considering the actual measured in-room response, and that includes the monster IRS-2's I had for several years (though they were no slouch!)

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 05:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
grigorianvlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,471
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked: 605
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
The 24dB filter is a choice of settings on the Rythmik plate amp that will be in your F25, 12dB/octave being the other. If you were crossing over at 80Hz, you would want the filter slope to be steeper (to bring the sub's output down as fast as possible) than it can be at the 40Hz you will be using. At 40Hz, the 12dB filter will be fine.
Another question. Does this 12db/24db adjustable slope come into play only if I am using line-in connections with full signal, or does it also applies to the LFE single RCA that carries the entire low frequencies? Which is better, BTW?

DAC: Wyred4Sound DAC1LE || BD Player: Pioneer Elite BDP-41FD || Processor: Marantz AV8801 11.2 Ch || Power Amps: ARC VS110, Emotiva XPR-2 (600W), Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 & UPA-500 (200W/80W) || L/R Speakers: Eminent LFT-8b , Magnepan 2.7, Center : Polk LSiM-704C, Sur: Polk LSiM-703 || Sub 1: Rythmik F25 (800W). Sub 2: Sunfire True Signature TS-EQ12 (2,700W) || Cables: MIT terminator 2 Biwire, 4, Exp; Cardas Crosslink || Power: Panamax M5300 || HP: HifiMan HE560
grigorianvlad is offline  
Old 02-25-2016, 06:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BDP24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,117
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Liked: 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post
Another question. Does this 12db/24db adjustable slope come into play only if I am using line-in connections with full signal, or does it also applies to the LFE single RCA that carries the entire low frequencies? Which is better, BTW?

The 12/24dB switch is operative from the line-in input only, not from the LFE input. What do you mean by "Which is better"?
BDP24 is offline  
Old 02-26-2016, 08:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,133
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 729 Post(s)
Liked: 729
What about this Rythmik Audio "DIY" E15HP, courtesy of Andrew Nemo:

24mm MDF material + black leather. It sounds great.


Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Rythmik-1510-600w[5] copy 2.jpg
Views:	432
Size:	415.8 KB
ID:	1280193  



Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Polk LSiM705s, LSiM706C, LSiM703s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Marantz SR7008 | Parasound Halo P5 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Duet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
enricoclaudio is offline  
Old 02-26-2016, 09:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
grigorianvlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,471
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Liked: 605
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
The 12/24dB switch is operative from the line-in input only, not from the LFE input. What do you mean by "Which is better"?
As I understand it, subwoofers allow these connections:

1) Line in (balanced or unbalanced), LFE only (only below crossover setting on AVR)
2) Line in as uncrossovered line out from lets say a stereo preamp, contains all frequencies, 2 RCA's in
3) Speaker wire, L/R

So, what you are saying is that the 12/24dB switch is only usable in case 2)? If so, is there any AUDIBLE benefit in connecting that way and playing with the switch? Or connecting an AVR LFE is best?Much obliged.

DAC: Wyred4Sound DAC1LE || BD Player: Pioneer Elite BDP-41FD || Processor: Marantz AV8801 11.2 Ch || Power Amps: ARC VS110, Emotiva XPR-2 (600W), Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 & UPA-500 (200W/80W) || L/R Speakers: Eminent LFT-8b , Magnepan 2.7, Center : Polk LSiM-704C, Sur: Polk LSiM-703 || Sub 1: Rythmik F25 (800W). Sub 2: Sunfire True Signature TS-EQ12 (2,700W) || Cables: MIT terminator 2 Biwire, 4, Exp; Cardas Crosslink || Power: Panamax M5300 || HP: HifiMan HE560
grigorianvlad is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 

Tags
f12g subwoofer , lv12r , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off