Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 763 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22861 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
As for the "only" 400 watts available for each woofer in the F25, this has been discussed and explained many times on this thread, the last time being only a few days ago.
Makes sense, thanks. I am glad I found this thread, I've learned many things here. Cant wait to unpack the F25 next Thursday.

DAC: Wyred4Sound DAC1LE || Processor: Marantz AV8801 11.2 Ch || Power Amps: Audio Research VS110 (100W tube) || Emotiva XPR-2 (600W), Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 & UPA-500 (200W/80W) || L/R Speakers: Eminent LFT-8b , Magnepan 2.7, Center : Polk LSiM-704C, Sur: Polk LSiM-703 || Sub 1: Rythmik F25 (800W). Sub 2: Sunfire True Signature TS-EQ12 (2,700W) || Cables: MIT terminator 2 Biwire, 4, Exp; Cardas Crosslink || Power: PS Audio Premier || HP: HifiMan HE560
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post #22862 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 07:30 AM
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Hey guys,

In a month, i'll be looking at getting a Rythmik sub. Thinking i'll go with the L12 as i'm in a 650sq.ft condo, and i need it to be compact.
I've currently got a NAD C320BEE with no bass management powering PSB X2T Towers. The speaker frequency response is 30-23,000Hz (On Axis @ 0°±3dB).

Now here's my dilemma. With the L12, i'll have to feed it a line level input from my amps pre-out. So theoretically, I would have to set the crossover on the sub to about 30-40Hz right?

Enrico from Rythmik told me that the F12 with a A370PEQ amp has a High pass filter out via RCA set at 80Hz. So this will allow my speakers to cross over to the sub a 80Hz and let the sub handle everything below. I'm assuming this is the better option, but it is 300USD more, and i'm in Canada so that's about 400CAD more.

I'm also thinking about slowly moving to a Home theater set up in about a year or two while i save up so that would make the F12's amp redundant.

I mostly listen to music that digs pretty deep (Trance, Deep house, some techno and hip-hop). Would the L12 work for me for now? I'd rather save that money and put it towards a center and a receiver in a year.

Would the L12 even make much of a difference to my current set up if crossed over at 40ish Hz, Or would I be better off waiting to add a sub till I get an AVR?
I could hold off on the sub, as the bass in my music sounds pretty good, but just missing a bit of that really low bass. I definitely notice this more when watching movies, but i think that has more to do with that fact that movies are designed with a AVR and sub in mind and those low frequencies don't seem to be properly included in the stereo soundtrack. I could be wrong though.

Any advice would be appreciated!

NAD D1050 > NAD C320BEE / MiniDSP 2x4 > PSB X2T's / Rythmik FVX15
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post #22863 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by dcolaco View Post
Hey guys,



In a month, i'll be looking at getting a Rythmik sub. Thinking i'll go with the L12 as i'm in a 650sq.ft condo, and i need it to be compact.

I've currently got a NAD C320BEE with no bass management powering PSB X2T Towers. The speaker frequency response is 30-23,000Hz (On Axis @ 0°±3dB).



Now here's my dilemma. With the L12, i'll have to feed it a line level input from my amps pre-out. So theoretically, I would have to set the crossover on the sub to about 30-40Hz right?



Enrico from Rythmik told me that the F12 with a A370PEQ amp has a High pass filter out via RCA set at 80Hz. So this will allow my speakers to cross over to the sub a 80Hz and let the sub handle everything below. I'm assuming this is the better option, but it is 300USD more, and i'm in Canada so that's about 400CAD more.



I'm also thinking about slowly moving to a Home theater set up in about a year or two while i save up so that would make the F12's amp redundant.



I mostly listen to music that digs pretty deep (Trance, Deep house, some techno and hip-hop). Would the L12 work for me for now? I'd rather save that money and put it towards a center and a receiver in a year.



Would the L12 even make much of a difference to my current set up if crossed over at 40ish Hz, Or would I be better off waiting to add a sub till I get an AVR?

I could hold off on the sub, as the bass in my music sounds pretty good, but just missing a bit of that really low bass. I definitely notice this more when watching movies, but i think that has more to do with that fact that movies are designed with a AVR and sub in mind and those low frequencies don't seem to be properly included in the stereo soundtrack. I could be wrong though.



Any advice would be appreciated!

I think it would make a significant difference. You could also consider using an active crossover for bass management, such as DBX. I actually have a multichannel Outlaw active crossover I'm not currently using I could give you a good deal on, if you're interested, just pm me. Personally, though, I can't get enough bass and the quality of the Rythmik subs is hard to beat.


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post #22864 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
though I have veered sideways now and then
Don, from your posts, originally you had a pair of L12s crossed over to your Maggies individually as a stereo pair. Now you run all your subs as x.1. Just curious why? You had commented that you preferred the ambiance from the stereo setup.

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post #22865 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 08:03 AM
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There are other features of the F12 amp that can be of benefit even with an AVR, and most especially if you ever contemplate getting a second subwoofer. Personally I'd rather get the best I can afford at the time and not (a) regretting or playing the "I wonder if" game, and (b) having to buy a better one later. That said any of Rythmik's subs are a fine choice.

As to the crossover, I can count on one hand (OK, maybe two, over all the years) the speakers I felt would not benefit from having the deep bass diverted from them. Deep bass is by far the highest-power signal supplied to a speaker and that makes the amplifier and speaker all work harder. Distortion gets high (often very, very high) from a speaker driven hard and that is almost always in the low bass region. Adding a crossover can clean up the entire audio spectrum since the main speakers no longer have to deal with large signals and the subwoofer can do its job at providing clean, loud, low-frequency sound.

All that said, if your NAD does not have preamp in/out jacks, you may not be able to roll off the low frequencies to your main speakers. You'd need a new AVR, or external crossover (built into the sub or not) and external amplifier for the main speakers.

IME/IMO - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #22866 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 08:18 AM
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I think it would make a significant difference. You could also consider using an active crossover for bass management, such as DBX. I actually have a multichannel Outlaw active crossover I'm not currently using I could give you a good deal on, if you're interested, just pm me. Personally, though, I can't get enough bass and the quality of the Rythmik subs is hard to beat.


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Yeah i have considered getting an active crossover, but with the plan to move to an AVR when i am able to build a full system, I'm not too sure how much i want to keep investing in my stereo set up. I think what i'm going to do is get the L12 and if i feel like i need better bass management, i will look into getting a crossover for cheap. I'm in Toronto so shipping could get pricey if you're in the states but i will keep you in mind. I've seen a few used ones on sale for about 100 to 200 on Canuckaudiomart.

Another question i have is the sub placement. I know it depends on my room and how it sounds, but would it be bad to place the sub about 8 feet behind my seating position. See the picture attached. The red squares are my possible sub locations. Ideally by the bed would be perfect, and i could use it as a side table . I wont keep anything on it when in use however, but it seems like it'll be out of the way. the long wall with the speakers is pretty cramped as we have a table, and an aquarium etc and the girlfriends been awesome about my stuff taking up most of the room in that area so that back wall would be ideal. It could also go in the corner of that back wall. I'll have to play around with the location but i'm curious if a sub that far behind would cause problems.
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NAD D1050 > NAD C320BEE / MiniDSP 2x4 > PSB X2T's / Rythmik FVX15
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post #22867 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

All that said, if your NAD does not have preamp in/out jacks, you may not be able to roll off the low frequencies to your main speakers. You'd need a new AVR, or external crossover (built into the sub or not) and external amplifier for the main speakers.

IME/IMO - Don
It does have a pre-amp out and then a main in, so i would be able to crossover the frequencies to the main speakers using an active crossover.

NAD D1050 > NAD C320BEE / MiniDSP 2x4 > PSB X2T's / Rythmik FVX15

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post #22868 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by dcolaco View Post
Yeah i have considered getting an active crossover, but with the plan to move to an AVR when i am able to build a full system, I'm not too sure how much i want to keep investing in my stereo set up. I think what i'm going to do is get the L12 and if i feel like i need better bass management, i will look into getting a crossover for cheap. I'm in Toronto so shipping could get pricey if you're in the states but i will keep you in mind. I've seen a few used ones on sale for about 100 to 200 on Canuckaudiomart.



Another question i have is the sub placement. I know it depends on my room and how it sounds, but would it be bad to place the sub about 8 feet behind my seating position. See the picture attached. The red squares are my possible sub locations. Ideally by the bed would be perfect, and i could use it as a side table . I wont keep anything on it when in use however, but it seems like it'll be out of the way. the long wall with the speakers is pretty cramped as we have a table, and an aquarium etc and the girlfriends been awesome about my stuff taking up most of the room in that area so that back wall would be ideal. It could also go in the corner of that back wall. I'll have to play around with the location but i'm curious if a sub that far behind would cause problems.

Of your placement options, the one closest to your mains or the mid wall placement would most likely be best. The closer to the mains, the less phase issues, and the mid wall placement is recommended by experts such as Floyd Toole. So you could experiment with these two and select the one with the smoothest response and greatest output. Crossing over at 80 HZ is also recommended. Hope this helps, and best of luck!


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post #22869 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dcolaco View Post
Hey guys,

In a month, i'll be looking at getting a Rythmik sub. Thinking i'll go with the L12 as i'm in a 650sq.ft condo, and i need it to be compact.
I've currently got a NAD C320BEE with no bass management powering PSB X2T Towers. The speaker frequency response is 30-23,000Hz (On Axis @ 0°±3dB).

Now here's my dilemma. With the L12, i'll have to feed it a line level input from my amps pre-out. So theoretically, I would have to set the crossover on the sub to about 30-40Hz right?

Enrico from Rythmik told me that the F12 with a A370PEQ amp has a High pass filter out via RCA set at 80Hz. So this will allow my speakers to cross over to the sub a 80Hz and let the sub handle everything below. I'm assuming this is the better option, but it is 300USD more, and i'm in Canada so that's about 400CAD more.

I'm also thinking about slowly moving to a Home theater set up in about a year or two while i save up so that would make the F12's amp redundant.

I mostly listen to music that digs pretty deep (Trance, Deep house, some techno and hip-hop). Would the L12 work for me for now? I'd rather save that money and put it towards a center and a receiver in a year.

Would the L12 even make much of a difference to my current set up if crossed over at 40ish Hz, Or would I be better off waiting to add a sub till I get an AVR?
I could hold off on the sub, as the bass in my music sounds pretty good, but just missing a bit of that really low bass. I definitely notice this more when watching movies, but i think that has more to do with that fact that movies are designed with a AVR and sub in mind and those low frequencies don't seem to be properly included in the stereo soundtrack. I could be wrong though.

Any advice would be appreciated!
Your NAD C320BEE does not have pre outs so the L12 won't work in your situation because the L12 does not have speaker level inputs. However the NAD C320BEE does have a MAIN OUT and MAIN IN (loop) that right now they are in link mode because you don't have external EQ or processor. If you take the link out of the MAIN IN/OUT you won't get any sound out of the Integrated because you are breaking the loop. In your case the only subwoofer that would work is the F12 with A370PEQ amp (with HPF out). To make the F12 work in your setup you have to take the links out of the MAIN IN/OUT RCAs and use the MAIN OUT to send signal to the F12 LINE IN. Then get the signal back to the NAD MAIN IN from the HPF OUT on the F12. In this case the signal back to the NAD would be high pass filtered @ 80Hz. Another option but more expensive is to get an external amp and use the MAIN OUT to send signal to the external amp and to the subwoofer as well using a RCA "Y" splitter. In this case the L12 or any other subwoofer would work.

Sorry, forgot to mention that with the F12 you have the option to use high level speaker inputs as well so you can crossover at 40Hz and run your speakers full range.



Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL & Sierra 2s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |

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post #22870 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Your NAD C320BEE does not have pre outs so the L12 won't work in your situation because the L12 does not have speaker level inputs. However the NAD C320BEE does have a MAIN OUT and MAIN IN (loop) that right now they are in link mode because you don't have external EQ or processor. If you take the link out of the MAIN IN/OUT you won't get any sound out of the Integrated because you are breaking the loop. In your case the only subwoofer that would work is the F12 with A370PEQ amp (with HPF out). To make the F12 work in your setup you have to take the links out of the MAIN IN/OUT RCAs and use the MAIN OUT to send signal to the F12 LINE IN. Then get the signal back to the NAD MAIN IN from the HPF OUT on the F12. In this case the signal back to the NAD would be high pass filtered @ 80Hz. Another option but more expensive is to get an external amp and use the MAIN OUT to send signal to the external amp and to the subwoofer as well using a RCA "Y" splitter. In this case the L12 or any other subwoofer would work.

Sorry, forgot to mention that with the F12 you have the option to use high level speaker inputs as well so you can crossover at 40Hz and run your speakers full range.
Hey Enrico. Can i not take out the jumper between the pre-out and main-in and use a y-splitter at the Pre-out to send one signal back into the main in (to power the speakers full range) and one to the sub at line level?

I know this is not ideal, but it is possible right?
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post #22871 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 08:42 AM
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Hey Enrico. Can i not take out the jumper between the pre-out and main-in and use a y-splitter at the Pre-out to send one signal back into the main in (to power the speakers full range) and one to the sub at line level?

I know this is not ideal, but it is possible right?
Attached is a picture of the C320Bee
Never thought about that, which makes total sense. It should work but just to be sure get an RCA "Y" splitter and try that before get the subwoofer. If that works then you can get the L12 for sure.



Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL & Sierra 2s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
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post #22872 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 08:54 AM
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Never thought about that, which makes total sense. It should work but just to be sure get an RCA "Y" splitter and try that before get the subwoofer. If that works then you can get the L12 for sure.
Yup good idea, i should test it. It would be nice to get the F12 and properly crossover my mains though. Even if it's just for a year until i move over to an AVR. But other than the amp section, in terms of performance, is it obvious that the F12 performs better? Like, when i get my AVR and set the crossover on there, would the F12 come out as the clear winner? I've been reading comparisons and most seem to say that it's not a very noticeable difference.

NAD D1050 > NAD C320BEE / MiniDSP 2x4 > PSB X2T's / Rythmik FVX15
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I have discovered a 50 HZ null at my listening position while running frequency sweeps. It is down 12-15 db. I can't move back any further and my room is treated. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to best deal with this (short of sitting in the back row, where the response is much more even)?


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post #22874 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 09:51 AM
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I have discovered a 50 HZ null at my listening position while running frequency sweeps. It is down 12-15 db. I can't move back any further and my room is treated. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to best deal with this (short of sitting in the back row, where the response is much more even)?


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The only way to fix a null like that is moving the subwoofer to another location or adding a second subwoofer to smooth the response in the room.



Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL & Sierra 2s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
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post #22875 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 11:53 AM
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Don, from your posts, originally you had a pair of L12s crossed over to your Maggies individually as a stereo pair. Now you run all your subs as x.1. Just curious why? You had commented that you preferred the ambiance from the stereo setup.

Brian
F12's.

This will be long, sorry...

Why the change? It's complicated... There is the potential for bass cancellation and loss of some directionality using mono subs. Cancellation because, if the bass is for whatever reason not in phase in the L/R channels, then summing the two to a mono bass feed can lead to cancellation. That is very rare IME; most of the time the bass is (or is mixed to) mono anyway for various reasons. Directionality from two things, (1) crossover too high and/or slope too low (leading to significant energy well above the crossover frequency), and (2) potentially (been a while since I read the AES papers on this and I am not a current member) from the initial pressure wave applied to the speakers (e.g. the initial rush of air from a drum strike). Testing showed I am (was) sensitive to around 60 ~ 65 Hz for bass localization. My original system used a fairly high crossover and lower-order (12 dB/octave) so I could localize the bass. I put my single (DIY servo similar to Rythmik) sub in between before moving (much later) to stereo subs.

Fast forward a few years (decades, who counts? ) and now we have the HT revolution. While I had a number of AVRs (Yamaha, Sony, Denon) it was not until a few years ago that I got a dedicated media room and outfitted my more-or-less current system. The room is smaller than originally planned; we added a basement bedroom and associated hallway that not only sucked out a third of my floor space but also trashed my nice prime dimensions. Meaning I have some annoying doubled-up modes. I decided on stereo subs for historical (see above) technical and aesthetic reasons. My Pioneer Elite also had a quirk wherein LFE signals between the crossover point and upper end of the LFE spectrum were lost. The easy solution, sort-of, was to run stereo subs in parallel with the mains after an active crossover (set to ~60 Hz) so they looked like large speakers to the AVR. I played around with mono and stereo subs and frankly did not notice a difference, but after wiring in the crossover and all the amps left it alone. It sounded good.

When I moved to a processor last year (Emotiva XMC-1), it had options for mono, dual mono, or stereo subs. Naturally I tried all three. Did not really notice a difference. When I got another pair of subs (quest to resolve a room mode issue) I tried all three again, but setting up four subs was just way easier using a single mono output and tweaking phase on the subs, plus there are questions about the way multiple subs are handled by the processor (and by most processors, as it turns out). I could not hear any difference, or maybe thought I could once or twice but was never quite sure, and trying out different configurations and adjusting controls on the subs plus repeated runs of Dirac Live got to be way too time-consuming. So today mono it is!

It is also very possible that, in the primordial past, I did not take as much care in measurements (which took much more to do back then, no REW and USB mics), and the subs were not truly properly integrated. The vast majority of my time listening was using a single sub; stereo subs in my own system are a fairly recent thing. I set them up for others who could afford them, alas...

Now I am happy with my little quartet of F12's. I have a narrow null up around 150 Hz I am pretty sure I can fix if I ever get time to tweak again, but other than that the in-room response is pretty flat and 3 dB down around 7 Hz. I can live with that.

HTH - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #22876 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 12:04 PM
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@healthnut :

If it is a room mode, moving the sub might not help, unless you move it near the listening position. Usually you must move the listening position or add a sub (or three ). The frequency of a null caused by a cancellation is set by room dimensions and not much else; moving away from the null or overdriving it with another sub are often the only viable solutions.

Room treatment can help, but at 50 Hz you'd need a lot of thick panels, very large diffusors, or special tuned panels to do much good. Probably not practical and/or cost-effective.

Rythmik offers a discount for the second (and more) sub, just sayin'...

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post #22877 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 01:19 PM
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Thanks, Don. I actually have 2 subs, which I'm using for midbass (Rythmik FMB 8's). I've been experimenting this afternoon and got a good result moving the little subs a couple of feet out and toward the center. Now, 50 HZ measures the same in both rows. I'll be using the high extension setting and diverting from 50 HZ to the new monster 24" I just acquired.


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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
The only way to fix a null like that is moving the subwoofer to another location or adding a second subwoofer to smooth the response in the room.

Thanks for your input. I actually am using to Rythmik FMB 8's to supplement the bottom end of my Sierra 2's. I've been doing some testing, and I found if I moved the little subs out and a couple of feet and toward the center, I was able to get consistent results from both rows. All in all, a quick easy fix. Now it's time to integrate the Mariana 24 into the mix.


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post #22879 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
F12's.

This will be long, sorry...

Why the change? It's complicated... There is the potential for bass cancellation and loss of some directionality using mono subs. Cancellation because, if the bass is for whatever reason not in phase in the L/R channels, then summing the two to a mono bass feed can lead to cancellation. That is very rare IME; most of the time the bass is (or is mixed to) mono anyway for various reasons. Directionality from two things, (1) crossover too high and/or slope too low (leading to significant energy well above the crossover frequency), and (2) potentially (been a while since I read the AES papers on this and I am not a current member) from the initial pressure wave applied to the speakers (e.g. the initial rush of air from a drum strike). Testing showed I am (was) sensitive to around 60 ~ 65 Hz for bass localization. My original system used a fairly high crossover and lower-order (12 dB/octave) so I could localize the bass. I put my single (DIY servo similar to Rythmik) sub in between before moving (much later) to stereo subs.

Fast forward a few years (decades, who counts? ) and now we have the HT revolution. While I had a number of AVRs (Yamaha, Sony, Denon) it was not until a few years ago that I got a dedicated media room and outfitted my more-or-less current system. The room is smaller than originally planned; we added a basement bedroom and associated hallway that not only sucked out a third of my floor space but also trashed my nice prime dimensions. Meaning I have some annoying doubled-up modes. I decided on stereo subs for historical (see above) technical and aesthetic reasons. My Pioneer Elite also had a quirk wherein LFE signals between the crossover point and upper end of the LFE spectrum were lost. The easy solution, sort-of, was to run stereo subs in parallel with the mains after an active crossover (set to ~60 Hz) so they looked like large speakers to the AVR. I played around with mono and stereo subs and frankly did not notice a difference, but after wiring in the crossover and all the amps left it alone. It sounded good.

When I moved to a processor last year (Emotiva XMC-1), it had options for mono, dual mono, or stereo subs. Naturally I tried all three. Did not really notice a difference. When I got another pair of subs (quest to resolve a room mode issue) I tried all three again, but setting up four subs was just way easier using a single mono output and tweaking phase on the subs, plus there are questions about the way multiple subs are handled by the processor (and by most processors, as it turns out). I could not hear any difference, or maybe thought I could once or twice but was never quite sure, and trying out different configurations and adjusting controls on the subs plus repeated runs of Dirac Live got to be way too time-consuming. So today mono it is!

It is also very possible that, in the primordial past, I did not take as much care in measurements (which took much more to do back then, no REW and USB mics), and the subs were not truly properly integrated. The vast majority of my time listening was using a single sub; stereo subs in my own system are a fairly recent thing. I set them up for others who could afford them, alas...

Now I am happy with my little quartet of F12's. I have a narrow null up around 150 Hz I am pretty sure I can fix if I ever get time to tweak again, but other than that the in-room response is pretty flat and 3 dB down around 7 Hz. I can live with that.

HTH - Don
Don, thanks for the detailed reply. Still figuring out what I want to do at some point when I upgrade from my current sub. There is a lot of added cost in the stereo setup (e.g. 2 x F12 + MiniDSP vs 1 F15 managed by AVR). For sure pop music has bass summed to mono, but some large classical works are stereo. If it's very hard to hear the difference, I think I'll take the easy way out.

Brian
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post #22880 of 29909 Old 02-25-2016, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
Thanks, Don. I actually have 2 subs, which I'm using for midbass (Rythmik FMB 8's). I've been experimenting this afternoon and got a good result moving the little subs a couple of feet out and toward the center. Now, 50 HZ measures the same in both rows. I'll be using the high extension setting and diverting from 50 HZ to the new monster 24" I just acquired.


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Good news! Yes, with two subs you should be able to move them so as to cancel the null.

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Originally Posted by ergopower View Post
Don, thanks for the detailed reply. Still figuring out what I want to do at some point when I upgrade from my current sub. There is a lot of added cost in the stereo setup (e.g. 2 x F12 + MiniDSP vs 1 F15 managed by AVR). For sure pop music has bass summed to mono, but some large classical works are stereo. If it's very hard to hear the difference, I think I'll take the easy way out.

Brian
I do not have measurements to back this up, and some authors and posters I respect disagree with my opinion, so take with block of salt. Most pop sums to mono, and some jazz, most classical is stereo but IME at the mic it ends up being essentially mono anyway for virtually everything. The mics are usually close enough that the bass arrives at the same time when you consider the wavelengths involved. The only time I have heard issues is when the mics are spaced widely or there are multiple mics. The former is pretty rare and even then again the bass signal at the mics seems to be in phase, and multiple mics are usually either for ambiance (a don't care) or close-mic'd instruments (ditto). I took some recordings that I thought it would matter, and it didn't, so for now am sticking with mono. I had my external crossover in and out of the system and cables swapped around so many times I got dizzy... I have one final tweak I need to do to fix the little spike null (way over the sub's crossover frequency and does not appear in all my previous measurements; think I have a filter issue I can pretty easily fix) but I am done messing with the subs. I have more and better bass than I've ever had, especially considering the actual measured in-room response, and that includes the monster IRS-2's I had for several years (though they were no slouch!)

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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
The 24dB filter is a choice of settings on the Rythmik plate amp that will be in your F25, 12dB/octave being the other. If you were crossing over at 80Hz, you would want the filter slope to be steeper (to bring the sub's output down as fast as possible) than it can be at the 40Hz you will be using. At 40Hz, the 12dB filter will be fine.
Another question. Does this 12db/24db adjustable slope come into play only if I am using line-in connections with full signal, or does it also applies to the LFE single RCA that carries the entire low frequencies? Which is better, BTW?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post
Another question. Does this 12db/24db adjustable slope come into play only if I am using line-in connections with full signal, or does it also applies to the LFE single RCA that carries the entire low frequencies? Which is better, BTW?

The 12/24dB switch is operative from the line-in input only, not from the LFE input. What do you mean by "Which is better"?
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post #22884 of 29909 Old 02-26-2016, 08:56 AM
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What about this Rythmik Audio "DIY" E15HP, courtesy of Andrew Nemo:

24mm MDF material + black leather. It sounds great.


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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL & Sierra 2s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
The 12/24dB switch is operative from the line-in input only, not from the LFE input. What do you mean by "Which is better"?
As I understand it, subwoofers allow these connections:

1) Line in (balanced or unbalanced), LFE only (only below crossover setting on AVR)
2) Line in as uncrossovered line out from lets say a stereo preamp, contains all frequencies, 2 RCA's in
3) Speaker wire, L/R

So, what you are saying is that the 12/24dB switch is only usable in case 2)? If so, is there any AUDIBLE benefit in connecting that way and playing with the switch? Or connecting an AVR LFE is best?Much obliged.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad View Post
As I understand it, subwoofers allow these connections:

1) Line in (balanced or unbalanced), LFE only (only below crossover setting on AVR)
2) Line in as uncrossovered line out from lets say a stereo preamp, contains all frequencies, 2 RCA's in
3) Speaker wire, L/R

So, what you are saying is that the 12/24dB switch is only usable in case 2)? If so, is there any AUDIBLE benefit in connecting that way and playing with the switch? Or connecting an AVR LFE is best?Much obliged.

Some of the variables differ amongst the different versions of the plate amp. I haven't looked closely at the X800, having A370 and H600 amps myself (for OB/Dipole and DIY F15HP subs, respectively), all in the XLR2 version. Maybe Enrico can answer your questions.
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post #22887 of 29909 Old 02-26-2016, 08:23 PM
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Depending upon the AVR some folk have found the extra crossover roll-off beneficial. Or they desire more or less overlap with the mains. or whatever. Personally, I would use the LFE input and let your Marantz handle everything for starters, no need to get all complicated right off the bat. Unless you are an engineer and don't know any better...

IMO - Don

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Depending upon the AVR some folk have found the extra crossover roll-off beneficial. Or they desire more or less overlap with the mains. or whatever. Personally, I would use the LFE input and let your Marantz handle everything for starters, no need to get all complicated right off the bat. Unless you are an engineer and don't know any better...

IMO - Don
I am not an engineer, I am a coward. I will use the easiest route . LFE its . Thanks, Don.

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post #22889 of 29909 Old 02-27-2016, 05:02 AM
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I have 2 Rythmik FMB 8's and I'm having issues integrating them with the mains. I wanted both the mains and the 8's to have the same output at 80 HZ. I have a Sound Doctor CD which runs frequencies for 2 minutes at 5 db steps. If I balance mains and 8's at 80db frequency and 75db SPL, the volume control on the 8's is around 1/4, and the receiver sub volume is about half way. If i go into my Yamaha receiver menu and run the test tone for the subwoofer signal, it outputs it far lower (less volume) than the mains. If I readjust using the receiver's signal, it requires me to both move the receiver's sub volume to about 3/4 AND raise the volume control on the subs to about 3/4. If I measure this result with an SPL meter, the sub volume is now over 20 db LOUDER than the mains. On real program material, it actually sounds good, but I'm puzzled as to why the receiver is "goosing" the bass like this. I've heard of receivers jacking it up 10 db, but this is at least double that, possibly more. Anyone have any thoughts?


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post #22890 of 29909 Old 02-27-2016, 09:49 AM
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Some AVRs implement a "house curve" that boosts the bass. I have no idea if yours does that.

Phase issues, room reflections/modes, mic placement, processing algorithms and other things can cause levels to vary. Chances are a combination of differences in physical location (which changes delay, phase, room interaction, etc.) causes the level to vary a bit. Is the mic on a tripod and not changed when measuring levels? And the exact same spot used for the AVR's mic? Sometimes you can get drastically different results by moving the mic a few inches. Another issue is the SPL meter. I assume you meant to say "80 Hz frequency". Make sure the SPL meter is on a C weighted setting and not A weighted. And even then it will not be accurate below 30 Hz (where C weighting rolls off). The absolute SPL between the meter and the AVR can also be significantly different.

Without taking measurements (a deep rabbit hole) and more analysis this is one of those things difficult (for me anyway) to figure out over the Internet.

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