Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 781 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23401 of 30664 Old 04-11-2016, 11:34 AM
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LV12R Review (also on Rythmik website)

I got this sub last October to replace a Dayton Audio SUB-1200, which is also a 12" ported sub like the LV12R. Prior to that, the only subs I've owned come from entry level HTiBs (home theater in a box) which are not even worth comparing to the LV12R. Compared to the Dayton, the LV12R has a much cleaner, deeper, more powerful sound that doesn't sound like any other sub I've heard before. And by that, I mean it blends so well with my speakers (currently SVS prime bookshelves and center) that it seems more like the speakers extend down to 20Hz or lower.

Thanks to the bass extension switch on the back of the sub, I can go from intense, 'full body' HT sound for movies, TV shows, and video games to very clean, fast, 'articulate' sound for serious 2ch music listening. And of course, I can use any kind of sound for any kind of source if I please with this simple to use 3 position switch. I also find the LPF (crossover) slope switch to be a useful feature since it can help this sub better blend with my speakers based on content, preferences, and setup.

Anyhow, what matters most is that this sub provides a kind of bass that is unlike that found on most subs thanks to its unbelievable sound quality (thanks to direct servo) and flexible amp controls like bass extension/damping and LPF/crossover slope. Add to that excellent build quality and very impressive, fast and responsive customer service. I don't think I'll be needing another sub as long as this one works (it's that good!). And if/when I do, it will definitely be another Rythmik!

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post #23402 of 30664 Old 04-11-2016, 11:36 AM
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^(I decided to finally write an official review for my LV12R.)
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-7.1ch Bedroom HT-
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SVS Prime Bookshelf and Prime Center
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post #23403 of 30664 Old 04-12-2016, 01:20 AM
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Brian/Enrico,

Looking on the Rythmik website, at the performance and specification for the F15HP, is it correct that the frequency response is: 10Hz - 250Hz (+/-3db) with LFE inputs?

Or should the frequency response be: 14Hz - 250Hz (-2db) with LFE inputs?

Thanks.

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post #23404 of 30664 Old 04-12-2016, 07:48 AM
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I believe that was discussed in this thread, somewhere... I personally think that line in the spec should be removed. If you take the +3 dB point at the peak of midband response, and -3 dB at band edges, then you can achieve 10 Hz. (That is also what I said in the other thread.) To me that is a case of being technically accurate but misleading in practice. Not that a lot of other speakers (and other things) don't do it, but still...

IMO - Don
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post #23405 of 30664 Old 04-12-2016, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
I believe that was discussed in this thread, somewhere... I personally think that line in the spec should be removed. If you take the +3 dB point at the peak of midband response, and -3 dB at band edges, then you can achieve 10 Hz. (That is also what I said in the other thread.) To me that is a case of being technically accurate but misleading in practice. Not that a lot of other speakers (and other things) don't do it, but still...

IMO - Don
Well, on the LVX12/FVX15/FV15HP, both -2dB and -6dB points are quoted on the low end.

On the LV12R, however, a plus or minus 2dB spec is used. Which leads me to wonder if it's a -2dB or -4dB point.
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post #23406 of 30664 Old 04-12-2016, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Brian/Enrico,

Looking on the Rythmik website, at the performance and specification for the F15HP, is it correct that the frequency response is: 10Hz - 250Hz (+/-3db) with LFE inputs?

Or should the frequency response be: 14Hz - 250Hz (-2db) with LFE inputs?

Thanks.

There are multiple ways of FR specification. We can say +/-3db. But that is same as 0db/-6db. Basically you just move the reference. There are too many manufactures sneak in +/-3db number without letting customers know the difference between +3db/-3db vs 0db/-3db. It is a huge difference because the -3db in +3db/-3db is more like -6db in the 0db/-6db spec. We had assumed other manufacturers will use number of 0db/-3db to publish their -3db. But it turns out not and you know the reason. We keep both specs so the customers can easily compare.


I added "14Hz - 250Hz (0db/-2db) with LFE inputs" for clarification.
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Last edited by Rythmik; 04-12-2016 at 09:45 AM.
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post #23407 of 30664 Old 04-12-2016, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Well, on the LVX12/FVX15/FV15HP, both -2dB and -6dB points are quoted on the low end.

On the LV12R, however, a plus or minus 2dB spec is used. Which leads me to wonder if it's a -2dB or -4dB point.

The convention is if it is plus/minus notation, then it can only be used for a frequency range. But if it is just a -2db or -6db point, it should be taken relative to the highest point in FR. At least that is convention we'd like to follow.
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post #23408 of 30664 Old 04-12-2016, 12:34 PM
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Thanks for the clarification Brian. Too many people do not understand the numbers and so you have to present similar specs to remain competitive, understood. But, blah!

IME it is much worse for speakers; FR specs tend to be all over the map.
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post #23409 of 30664 Old 04-12-2016, 02:08 PM
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+1, I agree... Audioholics just did an article and video on how the average speaker company shows frequency response measurements... I understand the need to show measurements in a way that is consistent with the competition to allow apples to apples comparisons.
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post #23410 of 30664 Old 04-12-2016, 03:18 PM
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My computer speakers with 4 inch "subwoofer" is listed as 20 to - 20,000hz

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

IME it is much worse for speakers; FR specs tend to be all over the map.
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post #23411 of 30664 Old 04-12-2016, 03:56 PM
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Technically, a tweeter has 20Hz extension... but you would likely need to be Ant Man to hear it.
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post #23412 of 30664 Old 04-12-2016, 05:07 PM
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Technically, a tweeter has 20Hz extension..
Of course that depends on the tweeter.
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post #23413 of 30664 Old 04-13-2016, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
+1, I agree... Audioholics just did an article and video on how the average speaker company shows frequency response measurements... I understand the need to show measurements in a way that is consistent with the competition to allow apples to apples comparisons.

Danny Richie at GR Research uses 5dB division graphs, which makes smaller differences in frequency response more visible than does the industry standard 10dB, but makes sure to point that out when doing so.
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post #23414 of 30664 Old 04-13-2016, 08:10 AM
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Hi guys,

I'm looking at getting an L22. Any L22 owners out there that can give me their input?

Thanks,
Brandon
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post #23415 of 30664 Old 04-14-2016, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
The blue line shows exactly what the cutting looks like, which is essentially the inverse of the frequency response before EQ. I also showed the 6 filters that create that blue line when summed.

(Only downside to cutting this much is the need to increase gain considerably.)
Yeah those are some deep cuts. You weren't exaggerating when you said you had a difficult space to tame LF wise. Good job. I have been reading this whole forum from beginning to end past few days( my eye's are tired.) Lots of really smart people giving some good tips. I've messed with the bass extension a bit(some here prefer high, medium for movies instead of low.) Nice to be able to just flip a switch on a sub and get a different sounding sub. I read your review also. There's just so much misinformation out there about servo subs in general (none mentions Rythmik's designs specifically) that I'm glad I now finally personally own one so I can talk from first hand experience when asked about them from now on. Lot of haters out there for servo subs. This thing literally dropped my jaw the minute I hooked it up and played some content so obviously that hate is misguided. Glad I read and listened to the pro reviews and finally made the jump.

-Tom

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post #23416 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
The blue line shows exactly what the cutting looks like, which is essentially the inverse of the frequency response before EQ. I also showed the 6 filters that create that blue line when summed.

(Only downside to cutting this much is the need to increase gain considerably.)
Yeah those are some deep cuts. You weren't exaggerating when you said you had a difficult space to tame LF wise. Good job. I have been reading this whole forum from beginning to end past few days( my eye's are tired.) Lots of really smart people giving some good tips. I've messed with the bass extension a bit(some here prefer high, medium for movies instead of low.) Nice to be able to just flip a switch on a sub and get a different sounding sub. I read your review also. There's just so much misinformation out there about servo subs in general (none mentions Rythmik's designs specifically) that I'm glad I now finally personally own one so I can talk from first hand experience when asked about them from now on. Lot of haters out there for servo subs. This thing literally dropped my jaw the minute I hooked it up and played some content so obviously that hate is misguided. Glad I read and listened to the pro reviews and finally made the jump.

-Tom

Sent from my 710C using Tapatalk
I'd say anyone who claims not to like servo subs or is critical of them has clearly never heard a Rythmik and if they did, it wasn't long enough for their ears/brain to adapt to the very different sound.

I liked mine from the get go (since first movie watched). However, with my SVS Prime speakers I needed more listening before I ended up greatly preferring the SQ to my Sonys. And that was simply because it wasn't anything like I was used to.

Probably the biggest criticism of Rythmik subs I've seen is due to misunderstanding the amp power rating. Some think more watts means louder, more powerful, and deeper sound but taken in isolation it means nothing. Yet bigger numbers sell and an uninformed consumer might levitate to the more powerful amps.
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post #23417 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 09:19 AM
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Just wanted to pop in and say that after almost a year of moving from dual VTF15’s to dual FV15HP’s, I am totally happy. So much I moved on from messing with the audio to a UHD upgrade.


These things perform day in and day out and I would not trade em. Force Awakens had LFE rattling all kinds of stuff in my room...
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post #23418 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 10:32 AM
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I have a one year old and can't let them rip as much as I used to, but I will say being able to control the dampening has really come in handy. Instead of having to turn down the subs or completely off I can simply switch the dampening from low to high and it really tightens things up. I still know they are there, but there is a lot less rumble.
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post #23419 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
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Anyone ever had a bass note in a film hit you so hard in the chest it had you thinking about death? lmao😂 well since i had my sub pointing at the wall i gained a nice response, no localization and perfect phase letting me feel the bass hits in the movies i watch.

i removed my Minidsp2x4 and gained back the db i lost, plus having both Line in ports connected to by AVR that extra 6db combined with it already turned up 5 clicks from 12 o'clock on the gain because of the DSP db loss had me sitting in a corner thinking if i can get brain damage from bass after randomly clicking on a scene in Loudformers 3 and getting kocked over haha.

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I hear this description all the time of subwoofer audio "hitting hard in the chest", but I can't say I get that with my two F25's. I feel my couch vibrate from the sound and the walls start to feel it when it's really loud, but I don't really feel it in my body. Is it because I don't run my subs hot? Below is my sub REW output, which you can see easily goes down to 10Hz. I also listen to a lot of music on my system, so in that regard I don't want a ton of bass dominating the sound. However, for movie watching am I not feeling it in my chest because I run the subs pretty flat or what? I listen to movies where the dialogue sounds clear without being uncomfortable. I also have a miniDSP2x4. The measurements below are after all adjustments and using the miniDSP.

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post #23420 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 10:39 AM
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I more feel mine kick the chair and the low LFE stuttles rattles. You can tell when it pressurizes too. At reference volume I only get 110db, not 115db, in the lower part of the range but my room is huge. Still, 110db in a huge room is nothing to hold your head in shame over

I also think you get used to the hard bass, where as others may be like "damn" the first time. I love the chair kick/cushion rumble during a tense scene, it can get you.
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post #23421 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluecow003 View Post
I hear this description all the time of subwoofer audio "hitting hard in the chest", but I can't say I get that with my two F25's. I feel my couch vibrate from the sound and the walls start to feel it when it's really loud, but I don't really feel it in my body. Is it because I don't run my subs hot? Below is my sub REW output, which you can see easily goes down to 10Hz. I also listen to a lot of music on my system, so in that regard I don't want a ton of bass dominating the sound. However, for movie watching am I not feeling it in my chest because I run the subs pretty flat or what? I listen to movies where the dialogue sounds clear without being uncomfortable. I also have a miniDSP2x4. The measurements below are after all adjustments and using the miniDSP.

That's so strange with two F25's you should be feeling allot and i don't even run mines hot since i use two of the Line in inputs on my FV15HP.. Crazy thing is that when i point the sub at the wall that's when i started to get powerful, smooth, no directional bass coming from all directions and the chest and body shaking feeling in everything i listen to and watch. mind you i had my sub from Feb 2015 and i just started feeling and hearing what this sub can do with a simple thing as pointing it inches from the wall... Silly $hît man. i am 6ft away from my sub. I think it's an integration issue because i don't think with my one sub i should be having a more exciting and perfect bass experience than you. From what i know it's getting Phase correct that gets thing's working together well.

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post #23422 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 11:53 AM
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I hear this description all the time of subwoofer audio "hitting hard in the chest", but I can't say I get that with my two F25's.
I'm not an expert, but I've read that the "feel it in your chest" sounds are in the 40-50 Hz range; that's around the frequency range of a kick drum. Maybe the problem is that you have a 5 dB drop in that range?
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post #23423 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 12:17 PM
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Can you move the sounds and/or MLP a bit to try to reduce the dips at 45 and 60 Hz? That may help...

Unless you listen quite loudly, most folk find a slightly rising LF response is helpful. I usually run my system flat but in the past few years have decided I like a bit of HF roll-off (can't hear 20 kHz anymore) and deep bass boost, around 5 ~ 6 dB like everybody else (shocking). Follows the way we hear better and provides a better listener experience for many (most?)
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post #23424 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluecow003 View Post
I hear this description all the time of subwoofer audio "hitting hard in the chest", but I can't say I get that with my two F25's. I feel my couch vibrate from the sound and the walls start to feel it when it's really loud, but I don't really feel it in my body. Is it because I don't run my subs hot? Below is my sub REW output, which you can see easily goes down to 10Hz. I also listen to a lot of music on my system, so in that regard I don't want a ton of bass dominating the sound. However, for movie watching am I not feeling it in my chest because I run the subs pretty flat or what? I listen to movies where the dialogue sounds clear without being uncomfortable. I also have a miniDSP2x4. The measurements below are after all adjustments and using the miniDSP.


Here is my two cents. I would work on placement and integration to improve response dips/nulls above 40 Hz. 5-15 dB drops in output will definitely reduce sound quality/impact.

Second, a "subs only" FR is almost meaningless as it does not address how well your subs integrate with your mains. Since your FR just between the two subs could use some work, it would surprise me if things looked good around and above crossover. This will have a huge impact on mid bass and the feeling in the chest.


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post #23425 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 01:41 PM
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I'm with the others; the 40-60Hz range is where you get most of that "kick in the chest" sensation. You have a couple of pretty significant dips right in that area, and were they removed I'm betting you would end up with exactly what you're looking to achieve.
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post #23426 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
I have a one year old and can't let them rip as much as I used to, but I will say being able to control the dampening has really come in handy. Instead of having to turn down the subs or completely off I can simply switch the dampening from low to high and it really tightens things up. I still know they are there, but there is a lot less rumble.
I do find high damping to be almost like a bass stealth mode (it sounds quieter than an SPL meter would indicate, particular with low bass vs. mid bass). That being said for HT, I prefer going between mid and low. And I'm still impressed that such a small change in FR produces very different sound quality.

I do wonder if damping of the cone/driver (increased control) is analogous in any way to damping on a car's shock absorber. Because high damping sure does shake the room a whole lot less during REW measurement sweeps. Low shakes things a lot once into the 95dB realm.
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post #23427 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Can you move the sounds and/or MLP a bit to try to reduce the dips at 45 and 60 Hz? That may help...

Unless you listen quite loudly, most folk find a slightly rising LF response is helpful. I usually run my system flat but in the past few years have decided I like a bit of HF roll-off (can't hear 20 kHz anymore) and deep bass boost, around 5 ~ 6 dB like everybody else (shocking). Follows the way we hear better and provides a better listener experience for many (most?)
I actually run the sub about 10dB hot. Turns out YPAO was already running things 7dB hot before I added the +3dB I usually add. Seeing the CC+sub (and L+R+sub) measurement in REW full range is what led me to discover this. Works fine for me since I'm way below reference level for the speakers.
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post #23428 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 02:00 PM
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10 dB is getting up there but of course if you listen at fairly moderate volumes that makes perfect sense. The equal-loudness curves really shoot up at lower volume. If you crank it you may find the bass a bit overwhelming.
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post #23429 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I more feel mine kick the chair and the low LFE stuttles rattles. You can tell when it pressurizes too. At reference volume I only get 110db, not 115db, in the lower part of the range but my room is huge. Still, 110db in a huge room is nothing to hold your head in shame over

I also think you get used to the hard bass, where as others may be like "damn" the first time. I love the chair kick/cushion rumble during a tense scene, it can get you.
I would probably just listen -5dB MV to compensate for the output limits of the subs. Otherwise, you might lose some low frequency impact if the speakers play louder than the subs.

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post #23430 of 30664 Old 04-15-2016, 02:11 PM
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Nah, I watch all my movies at reference volume and they sound good.

You can sweat charts all day long, but if it isn't a designed theater room and you are limited on placement, just enjoy it. I did the whole REW thing, and moving crap around thing. Is what it is, so I put that junk in the closest and haven't pulled it back out! Kinda like video calibration but worse, you can obsess and end up spending more time tweaking than using. Get it right, fire and forget.

Thats why I said, after a year, I have not once thought about it again and feel no need for upgrade, which was not the case with the VTF15's. I got more output down low, and more output from 30-80, which is what I wanted. Bass sounds better too.

Certain scenes in Bayformers hit 113db at my seated position (10 feet away). Ill take that all day long.
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