Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 793 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 06-02-2016, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Most use 1 port mode on their (multi-tune ported) subs here (like FV15HP and FVX15... not many have LVX12 yet). I think 2 port mode is just if you really crank it and want max output 20Hz and up (at the expense of losing anything below that if content below 20Hz is present in the source).

What MV do you listen at and how big/open is the room?

Also, I agree with Bond... you're really overthinking this. If you're the kind of person who would wonder what if they'd gone the the LVX12 instead of the LV12R, get the LVX12 and future proof your purchase. If you're the kind of person who would be happier not spending any more than they absolutely need to and the value (price to performance ratio) would make you feel better about the purchase, get the LV12R.

The LV12R and LVX12 are not dramatically different models... they are both 12" ported Rythmik subs with at least 20Hz extension and highly similar max output at 20Hz. It's not like comparing the LV12R to the FV15HP. So, if you want the best 12" ported Rythmik, the LVX12 is the one and if you want something quite close but $230 cheaper the LV12R is the one.
Ok, that makes sense. What is "MV?" My room is about 21x12 with 7 foot ceilings. When I tried out the PB2000 it completely blew away my Bic F12. Not even comparable in the slightest. So refreshing and fun to see what content I was missing.
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Old 06-02-2016, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
This is interesting. You mentioned that the LVX12 is superior for movies vs. L22. Considering both have same max output at 20Hz and similar subsonic extension, from a subjective, SQ point of view how does the LVX12 sound better with movies? Just curious as it was also something I was wondering about the L12 vs. LV12R back when I was researching those models. Of course, the 2nd 12" driver does help the L22 keep up with the LVX12 in specs.
one of the reasons I do not like Max Output figures. I know why companies do this but you need so much more to know how a sub will perform.


Both of the below subs have the same Max output at 20Hz but they have different curves. One will work better for someone depending on there setup and requirements.
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Old 06-02-2016, 12:28 PM
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Ok, that makes sense. What is "MV?" My room is about 21x12 with 7 foot ceilings. When I tried out the PB2000 it completely blew away my Bic F12. Not even comparable in the slightest. So refreshing and fun to see what content I was missing.
Master Volume. At what volume on your receiver do you ordinarily listen? Whats the max you ever listen?
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Old 06-02-2016, 12:42 PM
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Very interesting. It seems much of what I've seen when googling bass traps are the OC's in the corners cut as triangles to fill from the ground to the ceiling. Looks like I need to do a little more digging and look into what you pointed out regarding the ASC design. Many thanks!

I know this is going to be hard to believe, but to significantly affect a 45Hz mode (45Hz is 25 feet long!), OC 703 would have to be six feet thick. Six Feet! For a great discussion of bass traps, and a report on a new, active one, see the review of the PSI Audio AVAA C20 Electronic Bass Trap in this month's (June) issue of Stereophile. It is, unfortunately, priced at $1999.
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Old 06-02-2016, 01:42 PM
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Master Volume. At what volume on your receiver do you ordinarily listen? Whats the max you ever listen?
That's what I thought it was. I have a Denon 2112CI, and I changed it to absolute rather than relative (or is it the other way around?), so it goes from 1-99, rather than reading in DB. For movies I usually sit around the 63-65 mark on my reciever. For music, which isn't nearly as common, and pending on the type, will be anywhere from 45-55. I have the Pioneer BS 22s for fronts and Pioneer SP-C22 for center which are a little on the low side for sensitivity, so not sure how much that plays into it. I can't say except on a few occasions to bump some hard hitting rap/rnb, I would go over 70. For movies, I can't say I've gone beyond 65. My wife says, "Does it have to be so loud?" I say, "Yes." Obviously I have a fair amount of room to play with, but wondering how these numbers compare to "how loud I listen."
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Master Volume. At what volume on your receiver do you ordinarily listen? Whats the max you ever listen?
That's what I thought it was. I have a Denon 2112CI, and I changed it to absolute rather than relative (or is it the other way around?), so it goes from 1-99, rather than reading in DB. For movies I usually sit around the 63-65 mark on my reciever. For music, which isn't nearly as common, and pending on the type, will be anywhere from 45-55. I have the Pioneer BS 22s for fronts and Pioneer SP-C22 for center which are a little on the low side for sensitivity, so not sure how much that plays into it. I can't say except on a few occasions to bump some hard hitting rap/rnb, I would go over 70. For movies, I can't say I've gone beyond 65. My wife says, "Does it have to be so loud?" I say, "Yes." Obviously I have a fair amount of room to play with, but wondering how these numbers compare to "how loud I listen."
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Most use 1 port mode on their (multi-tune ported) subs here (like FV15HP and FVX15... not many have LVX12 yet). I think 2 port mode is just if you really crank it and want max output 20Hz and up (at the expense of losing anything below that if content below 20Hz is present in the source).

What MV do you listen at and how big/open is the room?

Also, I agree with Bond... you're really overthinking this. If you're the kind of person who would wonder what if they'd gone the the LVX12 instead of the LV12R, get the LVX12 and future proof your purchase. If you're the kind of person who would be happier not spending any more than they absolutely need to and the value (price to performance ratio) would make you feel better about the purchase, get the LV12R.

The LV12R and LVX12 are not dramatically different models... they are both 12" ported Rythmik subs with at least 20Hz extension and highly similar max output at 20Hz. It's not like comparing the LV12R to the FV15HP. So, if you want the best 12" ported Rythmik, the LVX12 is the one and if you want something quite close but $230 cheaper the LV12R is the one.
Ok, that makes sense. What is "MV?" My room is about 21x12 with 7 foot ceilings. When I tried out the PB2000 it completely blew away my Bic F12. Not even comparable in the slightest. So refreshing and fun to see what content I was missing.
Based on the info you provided, if you don't plan on adding a 2nd sub in the future, the LVX12 would be the safer choice as you won't be asking yourself what if. If you do think you might want a 2nd sub, then the price difference would be $230x2.

And yes, any of these subs should blow the Bic F12 away, since that is a very basic model that taps out around 35Hz if I recall correctly. By that, I mean it doesn't even play a 30Hz or 25Hz note or lower at all. The Dayton SUB-1200 I used to have had some output down to 25Hz, though strong bass only to 32Hz (-3dB point) or so.
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
This is interesting. You mentioned that the LVX12 is superior for movies vs. L22. Considering both have same max output at 20Hz and similar subsonic extension, from a subjective, SQ point of view how does the LVX12 sound better with movies? Just curious as it was also something I was wondering about the L12 vs. LV12R back when I was researching those models. Of course, the 2nd 12" driver does help the L22 keep up with the LVX12 in specs.
one of the reasons I do not like Max Output figures. I know why companies do this but you need so much more to know how a sub will perform.


Both of the below subs have the same Max output at 20Hz but they have different curves. One will work better for someone depending on there setup and requirements.
Yeah, I agree... but at the moment I only had specs to go by.
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Old 06-02-2016, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
That's what I thought it was. I have a Denon 2112CI, and I changed it to absolute rather than relative (or is it the other way around?), so it goes from 1-99, rather than reading in DB. For movies I usually sit around the 63-65 mark on my reciever. For music, which isn't nearly as common, and pending on the type, will be anywhere from 45-55. I have the Pioneer BS 22s for fronts and Pioneer SP-C22 for center which are a little on the low side for sensitivity, so not sure how much that plays into it. I can't say except on a few occasions to bump some hard hitting rap/rnb, I would go over 70. For movies, I can't say I've gone beyond 65. My wife says, "Does it have to be so loud?" I say, "Yes." Obviously I have a fair amount of room to play with, but wondering how these numbers compare to "how loud I listen."
Yeah, I say LVX12 as well. You've got almost 1800 cu. ft. of space (sealed /open?) Also you like listening at higher levels. Plus your starting from scratch in regards to a Rythmik and you've also had and listened to the SVS PB-2000. Better to get the bigger enclosure and bit higher specs for the extra $230. JMHO.

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Old 06-02-2016, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
This is interesting. You mentioned that the LVX12 is superior for movies vs. L22. Considering both have same max output at 20Hz and similar subsonic extension, from a subjective, SQ point of view how does the LVX12 sound better with movies? Just curious as it was also something I was wondering about the L12 vs. LV12R back when I was researching those models. Of course, the 2nd 12" driver does help the L22 keep up with the LVX12 in specs.
There has been some fairly rigorous testing lately by some forum members showing that around tune, ported subs are more tactile than sealed subs at the exact same SPL. Around double according to measurements. And as Enrico stated, add to this the fact that in reality, with the extra efficiency around tune, you are likely to get more SPL at the same MV with a ported sub compared to a sealed sub unless you have applied some substantial eq boost down low to the sealed sub.

I'm not proclaiming any superiority of ported vs sealed...I personally own dual sealed subs in my main setup.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:03 PM
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Am I correct in thinking tactile means feeling the bass physically in your body, not just hearing it? I have long felt that the first and biggest difference between live and Memorex is that when experienced live, music is a full body experience, while when reproduced at home it is mostly just heard. Maybe I need to go ported!
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:59 PM
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Maybe I need to go ported!

Didn't really want that image in my head... Hopefully you meant your subs.

Ported subs "unload" the driver around the port frequency. It is essentially a resonant peak and just below the driver "flaps" wildly. There can be a significant peaking in the FR. I would guess Rythmik and other servo subs have less of that as the feedback controls the excursion so you don't get all that flapping in the wind. That is one of the main reasons I first implemented a servo myself decades ago and why I tend to prefer them now (ported or not; and I mean the subs ).
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:33 PM
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I read through the thread at databass about the tactile feedback of ported vs. sealed and the discussion there did introduce a little doubt in my mind about the effect being directly attributable to ported rather than just having the sub placed in the very near field.

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Old 06-03-2016, 02:29 PM
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I read through the thread at databass about the tactile feedback of ported vs. sealed and the discussion there did introduce a little doubt in my mind about the effect being directly attributable to ported rather than just having the sub placed in the very near field.

A big part of the physicality of live music is the insane SPL at Pop music (Rock, Blues, Country) shows. Those sound reinforcement systems, with their multiple subwoofers, horns, and dozens of power amps, shake the whole building. I started wearing molded ear plugs with attenuators years ago (though not soon enough; I have a fair case of tinnitus), and it's still loud!
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Old 06-03-2016, 04:57 PM
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That's what I thought it was. I have a Denon 2112CI, and I changed it to absolute rather than relative (or is it the other way around?), so it goes from 1-99, rather than reading in DB. For movies I usually sit around the 63-65 mark on my reciever. For music, which isn't nearly as common, and pending on the type, will be anywhere from 45-55. I have the Pioneer BS 22s for fronts and Pioneer SP-C22 for center which are a little on the low side for sensitivity, so not sure how much that plays into it. I can't say except on a few occasions to bump some hard hitting rap/rnb, I would go over 70. For movies, I can't say I've gone beyond 65. My wife says, "Does it have to be so loud?" I say, "Yes." Obviously I have a fair amount of room to play with, but wondering how these numbers compare to "how loud I listen."
Yeah, I say LVX12 as well. You've got almost 1800 cu. ft. of space (sealed /open?) Also you like listening at higher levels. Plus your starting from scratch in regards to a Rythmik and you've also had and listened to the SVS PB-2000. Better to get the bigger enclosure and bit higher specs for the extra $230. JMHO.

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Yeah, I don't think most here think after spending a bit more, 'I wish I had saved some money and bought something a bit less capable'. It's usually the other way around.

Which is why when I finally upgrade my AVR, I'm going to spend a bit more than I need to, something around $1K MSRP. I could get by with around $650-$750 but I don't plan on getting another AVR after that until it gets obsolete.
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Old 06-03-2016, 10:59 PM
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Yeah, I don't think most here think after spending a bit more, 'I wish I had saved some money and bought something a bit less capable'. It's usually the other way around.

Which is why when I finally upgrade my AVR, I'm going to spend a bit more than I need to, something around $1K MSRP. I could get by with around $650-$750 but I don't plan on getting another AVR after that until it gets obsolete.
Yep. I agree. This model sub really wasn't on my radar when I was researching plus it's bigger than I can fit in my space by just a bit so I'm happy with my decision but everyone is different.

I'm in the receiver upgrading mode as well. Mine is pretty old and I will be applying the same philosophy you just described. I keep them 10 plus years at least unless they crap out on me.

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Old 06-04-2016, 06:12 AM
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"so you don't get all that flapping in the wind."

So is it good news or bad that my port is the source of my wind flapping?

I came down to a PSA S1500 or the LVX12. Budget, usage and space or ergonomics, quality and sound.

I had a ported SVS, old NSD. I witnessed and heard the flapping of its driver due to being ported. It could get out of control in an almost amazing fashion. It really could dance if cranked too loud. Especially as it got older and the suspension was wearing out changing the properties of the driver.

I had a tough time because I was not confident with the ported and how much control the servo actually provides. My receiver equalizes the sub so as long as the sub can produce certain frequencies if I had to boost some a bit I have that option. So it wasn't just a matter of with a reference signal what did its freq curve look like. It was a matter of "Is it able to produce even if it needs a little help?" And the PSA S1500 can so to avoid possible issues with the ported design, not having experience with the servo based SW, I went with the sealed.

Sealed vs. ported is a tough call and I appreciate folks wrestling with the same decision.

If I could have demonstrated both side by side who knows? I might have been convinced the servo addresses the issue and might be enjoying the different oomph ported provides. I'm not in anyway disappointed in my sealed 15 inch though.

I've not read anything regarding life expectancy of the driver for sealed vs. ported. From experience the SVS PB12-NSD got tired at about 4 years of usage. I would speculate given sealed is using air pressure to help with the driver suspension they'd last longer. When I'm spending around a grand I can assure you my wife expects it to last awhile.

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Old 06-04-2016, 08:06 AM
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"so you don't get all that flapping in the wind."

So is it good news or bad that my port is the source of my wind flapping?
It depends on the "port" doing the flapping...

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Old 06-04-2016, 08:12 AM
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If I have more than one port flapping determining which one is will be the last of my worries.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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Old 06-04-2016, 01:43 PM
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There has been some fairly rigorous testing lately by some forum members showing that around tune, ported subs are more tactile than sealed subs at the exact same SPL. Around double according to measurements. And as Enrico stated, add to this the fact that in reality, with the extra efficiency around tune, you are likely to get more SPL at the same MV with a ported sub compared to a sealed sub unless you have applied some substantial eq boost down low to the sealed sub.

I'm not proclaiming any superiority of ported vs sealed...I personally own dual sealed subs in my main setup.
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I read through the thread at databass about the tactile feedback of ported vs. sealed and the discussion there did introduce a little doubt in my mind about the effect being directly attributable to ported rather than just having the sub placed in the very near field.
Here is a good summary of what we've found so far WRT ported vs sealed and Tactile Response:

Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response
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Old 06-04-2016, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Here is a good summary of what we've found so far WRT ported vs sealed and Tactile Response:

Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response
Nice. That seems to isolate it down to particle velocity as the cause.

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Old 06-04-2016, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 12B4A View Post
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Here is a good summary of what we've found so far WRT ported vs sealed and Tactile Response:

Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response
Nice. That seems to isolate it down to particle velocity as the cause.
When both sealed and ported subs are eq-d flat across their operating range, does the difference still exist?

For example, when I engage high damping on my ported sub, will I lose some tactile response due to the leaner low end?

Also, if the sub is used farfield/at moderate listening levels, does the difference in tactile response still exist?
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Old 06-04-2016, 08:00 PM
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When both sealed and ported subs are eq-d flat across their operating range, does the difference still exist?
Yes, this was how many of the tests were conducted. SPL level is the same, but still a difference in TR.

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For example, when I engage high damping on my ported sub, will I lose some tactile response due to the leaner low end?
If high damping is a HPF before you get to your port tune, then yes. If not, no.

Quote:
Also, if the sub is used farfield/at moderate listening levels, does the difference in tactile response still exist?
The closer the subs are to the test position, the more apparent it will be. The further away they are, less apparent.

IME, I can still tell a difference further away (subs placed by mains), but it is not as noticeable.
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Old 06-05-2016, 06:26 AM
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Regarding damping and tactile response, it depends what you mean.

Low damping = more ringing and higher frequency output gives more kind of one tactile response.

High damping = lower frequency extension and better impulse response gives more of another kind of tactile response.

It also depends on the content and room.
Your best bet is to experiment with both.
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Old 06-05-2016, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Here is a good summary of what we've found so far WRT ported vs sealed and Tactile Response:

Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Mid-Bass Tactile Response

Great thread on the mbm experiment. As I expected, all references are to use in a video system, not a music one. I understand---subs are used far more in video systems than in music ones, and most Rythmik (and other brand subs) users will want to try out an mbm or two, to get more of the tactilicity so desired by hard-core enthusiasts. It might also work great at approximating what one hears and feels from the sound system at a Metal or Hard Rock show!


What brings satisfaction in a video application may very well, in fact most likely, not in a purely audio one. In Hi-Fi, there is a reference---the sound of unamplified acoustic instruments and voices---to which a Hi-Fi system attempts to REproduce. There is also the assumption that the sound on a recording is somewhat like how live music sounds, and that the system is merely trying to, again, REproduce it. Adding mid-bass punch to a recording that contains none is anathema to Hi-Fi. In movie sound, there is no such reference---it's whatever "feels" good. That's cool!
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Old 06-05-2016, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post
In Hi-Fi, there is a reference---the sound of unamplified acoustic instruments and voices---to which a Hi-Fi system attempts to REproduce. There is also the assumption that the sound on a recording is somewhat like how live music sounds, and that the system is merely trying to, again, REproduce it. Adding mid-bass punch to a recording that contains none is anathema to Hi-Fi. In movie sound, there is no such reference---it's whatever "feels" good. That's cool!
Yes, you're correct. All focus has been on the HT scene.

Curious, when you say there is a reference for Hi-Fi, are you referring to a Tactile reference? How would you know if content should or should not have a midbass punch; and if it does, how much it should have?
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Old 06-05-2016, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Yes, you're correct. All focus has been on the HT scene.

Curious, when you say there is a reference for Hi-Fi, are you referring to a Tactile reference? How would you know if content should or should not have a midbass punch; and if it does, how much it should have?

That's a damn good question! As I said, it is assumed recordings have a pretty good approximation of what was recorded---the original acoustic event---contained in them. But we know that isn't the case in all, or even most, recordings. In contrast, movie soundtracks are pretty much completely artificial, created in a studio, not a real-life performance captured on tape.


But if a music recording does NOT contain the sound it "should" (a literal capturing of an original acoustic event), what's the harm in adding some post-recorded sound to make that recording sound more lifelike when played on a home sound system? You'll get no argument from me! Besides, can the sound of a live band REALLY be captured on tape in a studio? I saw The Who with Keith Moon twice, and believe me, their recordings are a very pale ghostly apparition of what they sounded like live. If the mbm subs make the recordings of a band sound more like they do live, why NOT employ them? Fine with me---I'm not really a purist! But then it's all a matter of taste and judgment, not "accuracy", a fundamental precept in High Fidelity.
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Old 06-05-2016, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post
Yes, you're correct. All focus has been on the HT scene.

Curious, when you say there is a reference for Hi-Fi, are you referring to a Tactile reference? How would you know if content should or should not have a midbass punch; and if it does, how much it should have?
This actually an interesting topic. After installing my PA-460(a very efficient 18" driver with strong mid and upper bass output), my 12 year old commented that it was approaching the realism she experienced in music class from the large bass drum, but still not quite as realistic. She was referring to not only how it sounded but how she could feel the bass in her body when the drum was struck. I suspect a lot of "audiophile" hi-fi systems that adhere to the "smaller is better" mantra are probably leaving a lot of accuracy on the table when it comes to the bass frequencies. In other words, many audiophiles somehow believe that a little 8" or 10" driver is more accurate at producing the sounds that a giant drum in real life produces compared to an 18" pro audio type driver. Cuz you know, tiny anemic drivers are faster and tighter and crisper. If only the silly people banging those giant drums knew that they could hit a little 8" drum instead for the same effect.

I have come to learn that, without spending a lot of money, there are not many drivers that truly excel at both high output ultra low bass and high output mid bass. Splitting up the job between two different style drivers really seems more optimal. Drivers like the BMS18N-862 do both pretty darn well, but at a price.
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Old 06-05-2016, 08:03 PM
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Totally off topic here, but anyone else on this thread absolutely love the opening scene of Spectre when Bond is walking through the parade with the LFE in the background, or is it just me? It's probably just me........Now don't get me wrong I get the biggest kick out of the WOTW pod scene, but I do like the presence of he LFE in the Spectre opening sequence and the way my FV15HP sounds. It just makes me smile.

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Old 06-05-2016, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post
Totally off topic here, but anyone else on this thread absolutely love the opening scene of Spectre when Bond is walking through the parade with the LFE in the background, or is it just me? It's probably just me........Now don't get me wrong I get the biggest kick out of the WOTW pod scene, but I do like the presence of he LFE in the Spectre opening sequence and the way my FV15HP sounds. It just makes me smile.

Regards,

RTROSE
That's literally the only good bass part of the film, I played that sucker over and over and it does sound pretty awesome on the FV15HP! Hits in the chest for me.

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Old 06-05-2016, 09:42 PM
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I agree one hundred---no, make that one thousand percent, Bear. When I used to go into Hi-Fi shops, I often found the instruments coming out of most audiophile speakers to appear comically tiny, the size of a grand piano being reduced to a single spot in the soundstage, with no sense of scale. The soundboard of a piano is HUGE, and should sound that way. Those low strings produce a massive wavefront, one you can feel. Same with bass drums of course, as well as floor toms (can you tell I play drums ;- ?), string basses, cellos, tubas, even baritone saxes. The only speakers I've heard which reproduce that aspect of recorded music has been the big planars, especially the 3-panel Magneplanar Tympani's. I am about to set up a pair of T-IV's in my new abode, and once again hear the size of music. Exciting!


Then there is the tonal balance of hi-fi speakers, which I again agree is usually way different than the real sound of instruments, being far too "light" in weight, heft, and harmonic balance, instruments sounding anemic. Some of the researchers have suggested that, for whatever reason, a speaker (or system) that measures flat sounds too "tipped up" in the high frequencies. That calls into question the assumptions that have been in place for the past half century, and the manner in which measurements are made. Interesting topic indeed!
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