Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 796 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23851 of 30857 Old 06-12-2016, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam Schulz View Post
Are spike feet available for the f12?
I can't find that they are but maybe someone else might chime in if they know something different.

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post #23852 of 30857 Old 06-12-2016, 09:30 PM
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I have the black matte on both my LV12R Rythmik sub's and I love it. Looks good and feels durable to the touch. I was in the automotive industry for years so I'm very in tune with whether a finish will be durable or not when I get to feel it from dealing with custom paints and body wraps for years This feels like it is to me. JMHO.

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When I'm ready to buy it will certainly be the black matte. I really like the look. Although I'd love the black gloss to match my ML 40's and 8, but I won't be getting the FV15.

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post #23853 of 30857 Old 06-12-2016, 09:37 PM
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When I'm ready to buy it will certainly be the black matte. I really like the look. Although I'd love the black gloss to match my ML 40's and 8, but I won't be getting the FV15.
I bet. My space and my pocketbook couldn't fit the FV15 but all of Brian's sub's are pretty great so the room I had for one got filled in fine. Nice clear bass.

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post #23854 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 03:28 PM
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Are spike feet available for the f12?

I used spikes for years, but there is now a better way to go---isolation. Spikes couple the sub enclosure to the floor, which has it's benefits. Coupling is the opposite of isolation---vibrations from the floor can travel up the spikes as well as down them. When you isolate the sub's enclosure from the floor, you prevent vibrations from coming up into it from below.

The way to isolate is to place a mechanical "filter" between two objects, in this case the sub enclosure and the floor. It has long been considered common wisdom that a speaker enclosure should be held firmly in place (such as with spikes), to prevent it from moving in reaction to it's cone's travel---as the cone pumps forward and backward, the enclosure moves in the opposite direction, resulting in a loss of information, and "smearing".

But audio designer Max Townshend in England has some fascinating videos posted on You Tube showing measurements of speaker cabinets with and without his isolation feet, which he has named the Seismic Pod. It is a spring enclosed in a rubber sleeve, with a small hole in the cap that seals each end of the spring/sleeve assembly. They work great, both theoretically and in practice. They are, unfortunately, rather expensive (if you have to ask how much.....;-).

A much cheaper way to get a good portion of the Pods benefits is to use a set of roller bearings, available from a number of companies, the most well known being Symposium Acoustics. SA named theirs Roller Blocks, and it works just as the foundations in Los Angeles high-rises do (to deal with seismic activity---earthquakes!): two shallow cups are separated by a ball bearing, which allows the top and bottom cups to move independently of each other. When vibrations enter the bottom cup, rather than traveling up through the ball bearing into the top cup and then into the sub enclosure, the ball simply rolls ever so slightly, the ball disposing of the energy (vibration) by trying to "climb" up the wall of the cup. And it actually works!

The Roller Block Jr, is priced at $190 for a set of three, and is designed to be used with both the top and bottom cup in place. But some users prefer using just the bottom cup, the bottom of the sub enclosure sitting on the ball bearing itself, rather than on a top cup. Used thusly, the resonant frequency of the bearing is lowered, down to around 3Hz it is claimed. A single set of three Roller Blocks is therefore enough for a pair of subs, only three extra ball bearings needing to be purchased separately. $190 (plus the cost of the three extra balls) for excellent isolation of a pair of subs---a great deal in my book!
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post #23855 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 06:31 PM
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I used spikes for years, but there is now a better way to go---isolation. Spikes couple the sub enclosure to the floor, which has it's benefits. Coupling is the opposite of isolation---vibrations from the floor can travel up the spikes as well as down them. When you isolate the sub's enclosure from the floor, you prevent vibrations from coming up into it from below.

The way to isolate is to place a mechanical "filter" between two objects, in this case the sub enclosure and the floor. It has long been considered common wisdom that a speaker enclosure should be held firmly in place (such as with spikes), to prevent it from moving in reaction to it's cone's travel---as the cone pumps forward and backward, the enclosure moves in the opposite direction, resulting in a loss of information, and "smearing".

But audio designer Max Townshend in England has some fascinating videos posted on You Tube showing measurements of speaker cabinets with and without his isolation feet, which he has named the Seismic Pod. It is a spring enclosed in a rubber sleeve, with a small hole in the cap that seals each end of the spring/sleeve assembly. They work great, both theoretically and in practice. They are, unfortunately, rather expensive (if you have to ask how much.....;-).

A much cheaper way to get a good portion of the Pods benefits is to use a set of roller bearings, available from a number of companies, the most well known being Symposium Acoustics. SA named theirs Roller Blocks, and it works just as the foundations in Los Angeles high-rises do (to deal with seismic activity---earthquakes!): two shallow cups are separated by a ball bearing, which allows the top and bottom cups to move independently of each other. When vibrations enter the bottom cup, rather than traveling up through the ball bearing into the top cup and then into the sub enclosure, the ball simply rolls ever so slightly, the ball disposing of the energy (vibration) by trying to "climb" up the wall of the cup. And it actually works!

The Roller Block Jr, is priced at $190 for a set of three, and is designed to be used with both the top and bottom cup in place. But some users prefer using just the bottom cup, the bottom of the sub enclosure sitting on the ball bearing itself, rather than on a top cup. Used thusly, the resonant frequency of the bearing is lowered, down to around 3Hz it is claimed. A single set of three Roller Blocks is therefore enough for a pair of subs, only three extra ball bearings needing to be purchased separately. $190 (plus the cost of the three extra balls) for excellent isolation of a pair of subs---a great deal in my book!


Sounds intriguing. Where can Roller Blocks be purchase?


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post #23856 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 06:34 PM
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wonder if the servo technology helps in this regard

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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post #23857 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 07:53 PM
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Or you could just use rubber feet.

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post #23858 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 08:03 PM
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Sounds intriguing. Where can Roller Blocks be purchase?


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Peter (Symposium Acoustics owner) will sell them to you directly, at a 10% discount, or you can buy them from any of his dealers, which includes some of the well known online Hi-Fi accessory retailers. But first, go to the SA website and read more about the theory and design of the Roller Blocks, and to the site of one of the originators of the idea, audiophile recording engineer Barry Diament, who talks about the idea in great detail. There is another maker of a roller bearing product, Ingress Engineering in Canada. He makes a couple of different models, one for only $75 for a set of three.
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post #23859 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 08:07 PM
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Or you could just use rubber feet.
Or you could use nothing under your subs. Heck, if you don't care about better sound, you could even not use subs at all. Why not just buy some Bose, and settle for real mediocrity? ;-)


And while you're at it, why waste all that money on high-performance steel-belted radial ply tires? Just get some cheap retreads.
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post #23860 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 08:08 PM
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any legit studies for subwoofer performance with feet vs no feet vs these rollers?

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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post #23861 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 08:17 PM
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[QUOTE=torii;44717057]any legit studies for subwoofer performance with feet vs no feet vs these rollers?[/QUOTE


Yes. Go to the site of Barry Diament Audio. He doesn't make or sell roller bearings, but he uses ones he made himself, and tells you why. Or don't---everyone is free to be satisfied as things are, no obligation to try for even better sound.
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post #23862 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 08:19 PM
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Or you could use nothing under your subs. Heck, if you don't care about better sound, you could even not use subs at all. Why not just buy some Bose, and settle for real mediocrity? ;-)
That's not the case at all. A few dollars worth of rubber feet is equally as effective as Rube Goldberg roller blocks regardless if you go buy the bearings on your own and turn your own wooden bowls or buy them premade with branding from the specialty audio manufacturer or the dealers. It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist in this case.

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post #23863 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 09:05 PM
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That's not the case at all. A few dollars worth of rubber feet is equally as effective as Rube Goldberg roller blocks regardless if you go buy the bearings on your own and turn your own wooden bowls or buy them premade with branding from the specialty audio manufacturer or the dealers. It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist in this case.

For the intellectually curious, Max Townshend has posted some very interesting videos on You Tube, displaying the effects of seismic level vibrations on speaker cabinets, and the solution he offers in the form of his unfortunately rather expensive Seismic Pods. Roller bearings are a pretty cheap way of dealing with those low-level vibrations, if you "believe" in such nonsense.


Paul Simon: "One man's ceiling.....is another man's floor".
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post #23864 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 09:13 PM
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I'm just curious, would a certain sub pair better with certain speaker brands? Or it doesn't really make a difference? I have Martin Logan Motion 40's.

Sony XBR70 850
Pioneer SC-81
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post #23865 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 09:17 PM
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I'm just curious, would a certain sub pair better with certain speaker brands? Or it doesn't really make a difference? I have Martin Logan Motion 40's.

The OB/Dipole Sub is just what planars need. I use them with my Quad ESL's and Eminent Technology LFT-8b Magnetic Planars. On roller bearings ;-) .
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post #23866 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 09:31 PM
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The OB/Dipole Sub is just what planars need. I use them with my Quad ESL's and Eminent Technology LFT-8b Magnetic Planars. On roller bearings ;-) .
Sounds like you have an awesome system. You can never go wrong with ML speakers.

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post #23867 of 30857 Old 06-13-2016, 09:35 PM
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I'm just curious, would a certain sub pair better with certain speaker brands? Or it doesn't really make a difference? I have Martin Logan Motion 40's.
I would think a sub would at least have to consider the space it was required to field.

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post #23868 of 30857 Old 06-14-2016, 05:02 AM
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For the intellectually curious, Max Townshend has posted some very interesting videos on You Tube, displaying the effects of seismic level vibrations on speaker cabinets, and the solution he offers in the form of his unfortunately rather expensive Seismic Pods. Roller bearings are a pretty cheap way of dealing with those low-level vibrations, if you "believe" in such nonsense.


Paul Simon: "One man's ceiling.....is another man's floor".
Max's proposes a seismic vibration hypothesis for why we have a change in audio perception during the evening vs. daytime. He demonstrates mechanical resonances with electric motors on sticks and a pink elephant toy on an elastic string. He doesn't present evidence that directly links seismic phenomena to audio system performance nor to its effects on audio perception in humans. What he does do is present a logical misdirect in explaining the phenomenon as a "well it wasn't residual mains electrical noise so it must be seismic" argument.

To his credit, I think his misdirection may not be intentional as he really believes seismic phenomena is the cause. The problem is that he did not directly measure any aspect of audio performance while varying the control for seismic range vibrations.

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post #23869 of 30857 Old 06-14-2016, 07:09 AM
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The OB/Dipole Sub is just what planars need. I use them with my Quad ESL's and Eminent Technology LFT-8b Magnetic Planars. On roller bearings ;-) .
Note the ML Motion series speakers are not ESL panels; they are conventional designs with Heil tweeters. Any Rythmik will do fine.

Whilst OB seems the perfect match for planar speakers, regular subs do OK as well if you haven't the space or inclination to build OB subs.
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post #23870 of 30857 Old 06-14-2016, 07:12 AM
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I'm just curious, would a certain sub pair better with certain speaker brands? Or it doesn't really make a difference? I have Martin Logan Motion 40's.
Let's turn it around: All speaker brands pair better with Rythmik subs.

Realistically there are a lot of good subs out there these days but Rythmik's servo design does offer a lot in terms of features and performance.

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post #23871 of 30857 Old 06-14-2016, 08:59 AM
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Let's turn it around: All speaker brands pair better with Rythmik subs.

Realistically there are a lot of good subs out there these days but Rythmik's servo design does offer a lot in terms of features and performance.
I really didn't think it mattered which sub. When it's time to buy I will certain choose Rythmik, now to decide which one(s)- LV12R, FVX12, or FVX 15.
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Sony XBR70 850
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Martin Logan Motion 40's
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post #23872 of 30857 Old 06-14-2016, 10:20 AM
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I'd just place the sub with no feet on carpet and be done with it. Spend the extra money on better/more subs and/or better speakers, not accessories that may or may not have much audible effect on sound quality.

Just my 2 cents...
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Is there any definitive release date and price for the 18'' subwoofer from Rythmik? Will there be a ported and a sealed version of this subwoofer? If anyone has some more information about these subs please share it, we might be organising a powerbuy from the Netherlands.
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With the whole LFE vs Line in petty much over with and we all know what sounds best for the individual supported by comparison graphs, what i am now curious about is what happens to the content over 80hz in the LFE channel when we crossed at 80hz via the Line in on the sub. below i graphed a film but only the LFE channel and you can see it goes beyond 80hz, so knowing that the crosserover in the avr does not affect the LFE channel do we lose everything above 80hz? since from what i know its not redirected to the speakers.



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The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts Heavy Cinematic | Heavy Electronic|

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^^ yes, one will loose everything above 80hz if the sub crossover knob is set at 80hz.
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With the whole LFE vs Line in petty much over with and we all know what sounds best for the individual supported by comparison graphs, what i am now curious about is what happens to the content over 80hz in the LFE channel when we crossed at 80hz via the Line in on the sub. below i graphed a film but only the LFE channel and you can see it goes beyond 80hz, so knowing that the crosserover in the avr does not affect the LFE channel do we lose everything above 80hz? since from what i know its not redirected to the speakers.


In Marantz receivers you can set a 120hz LFE crossover, that isn't without reason, LFE is supposed to have effects up to 120hz. If you cut the crossover in the receiver of the LFE channel for example the given 80hz, everything above 80hz will be sent to the corresponding channel and not to the sub. If you leave the crossover on the standard 120hz you will be hearing 120hz from your sub.

If you use the crossover on your sub back panel it simply block all incoming information above the given setting crossover on the sub, LFE or standard bass.
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post #23877 of 30857 Old 06-14-2016, 01:12 PM
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^^ yes, one will loose everything above 80hz if the sub crossover knob is set at 80hz.
darn it now ill have to switch between the two to see how it sound with the LFE connection and dial the whole thing in and re-watch those scenes. o well more to learn never a bad thing. Thank you.

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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGrey View Post
With the whole LFE vs Line in petty much over with and we all know what sounds best for the individual supported by comparison graphs, what i am now curious about is what happens to the content over 80hz in the LFE channel when we crossed at 80hz via the Line in on the sub. below i graphed a film but only the LFE channel and you can see it goes beyond 80hz, so knowing that the crosserover in the avr does not affect the LFE channel do we lose everything above 80hz? since from what i know its not redirected to the speakers.


In Marantz receivers you can set a 120hz LFE crossover, that isn't without reason, LFE is supposed to have effects up to 120hz. If you cut the crossover in the receiver of the LFE channel for example the given 80hz, everything above 80hz will be sent to the corresponding channel and not to the sub. If you leave the crossover on the standard 120hz you will be hearing 120hz from your sub.

If you use the crossover on your sub back panel it simply block all incoming information above the given setting crossover on the sub, LFE or standard bass.
Whatever you measure in REW hdmi channel four is what you will get in terms of lfe channel with movies; in my case setting the line in lpf to 80Hz and 24dB does give output strong until 100Hz and some even at 120Hz... but that has to do with sub EQ and room acoustics plus the LPF on the sub.

The lpf for lfe on some receivers is different as it only affects the lfe channel and not bass management plus if you set that lpf for lfe to 80Hz it will not be redirected to any speakers as lfe is sub only unless you use features that play double/extra bass by sending lfe to both sub and mains.

Also, that lpf for lfe is a 12dB per octave rolloff so you won't be removing everything past 80Hz if set to 80Hz. Even the LPF on the sub is a rolloff not a brick wall.

In my experience with the LV12R, using the sub's lpf at 80Hz and 24dB per octave with the line in connection provides best SQ. Yes, it does reduce output above 80Hz in the LFE channel but by keeping the sub from playing too high bass is cleaner and clearer and combined with a 80Hz crossover in the receiver, it sounds great all around. I might be getting minimal overlap around the crossover for bass management and minimal output above 80Hz for LFE, but that is a big part of why it sounds as clean and clear as it does.

I tried duplicating a 80/24 lpf via MiniDSP with the LFE input but it didn't sound right. Some kind of metallic/distorted sound.

I've also used Line In with lpf at max (120Hz and 24dB per octave) and it sounds pretty good with significant output to 120Hz, but that added overlap for bass management and added LFE does take some clarity/cleanness away from the mid to upper bass.

Bottom line is stick with line in if you can and experiment with lpf frequency and slope to taste. LFE input may or may not work for you but can't hurt to try.

Also, just because movies have lfe content to 120Hz doesn't mean you will get best SQ having you sub play flat to 120Hz or higher. Also, it doesn't mean that the content above 80Hz is crucial to the listening experience.

Not that different from video content potentially going up to digital 255 even though reference white is digital 235.

Go by perceived SQ and use REW measures as a back up to make sure there are no major frequency response or time domain issues. But determining optimal crossovers and sub lpfs requires a lot of listening too. What measures best may not sound best.
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post #23879 of 30857 Old 06-14-2016, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ yes, one will loose everything above 80hz if the sub crossover knob is set at 80hz.
Not everything, especially up to 120Hz and with 12dB per octave slope. (12dB down at 160Hz and 6dB down at 120Hz.)

Remember, it's a rolloff not a brick wall. (But 24dB per octave is a steep rolloff, 12dB down at 120Hz with 80Hz corner frequency.)
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post #23880 of 30857 Old 06-14-2016, 02:19 PM
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LFE treatment depends upon the AVR. My Pioneer throws out all LFE above the crossover; my Sony or Denon (forget which) routes it to the front L/R speakers (I think, have to dig up the block diagram later showing how they implemented bass management).

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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