Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 802 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #24031 of 30666 Old 07-01-2016, 06:55 PM
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I was employee number three with a health care startup and personally shipped the medical devices we designed for 5 years. My experience with both FedEx and UPS is fantastic. Those guys are rock solid. Their tracking is accurate and they deliver when they say they will unless it's weather related. Normally I wouldn't respond, but I've shipped thousands of times through these guys and am impressed. Now USPS, that's a different storey.
Must be some kind of parallel universe, because the track record of both company's is pretty much appalling at this point in time.

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post #24032 of 30666 Old 07-01-2016, 07:46 PM
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Choosing between Fedex and UPS is like choosing between Trump and Clinton, you get to choose between the worst two available options.
lol
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post #24033 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 03:40 AM
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Are there any guidelines for safely applying boost filters for sub EQ? (Via REW/MiniDSP 2?4 unbalanced)

I don't mean boosting at the bottom end, but any dips in response in the middle. And I don't mean nulls.

Also, I read on some other sites that both cutting and boosting eat up headroom, so there is no free lunch in that regard.

And when it comes to boosting, are there guidelines for gain and Q (and max individual boost vs. max overall boost in REW EQ tool)?

Basically looking for some tips regarding this...
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post #24034 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Are there any guidelines for safely applying boost filters for sub EQ? (Via REW/MiniDSP 2?4 unbalanced)

I don't mean boosting at the bottom end, but any dips in response in the middle. And I don't mean nulls.

Also, I read on some other sites that both cutting and boosting eat up headroom, so there is no free lunch in that regard.

And when it comes to boosting, are there guidelines for gain and Q (and max individual boost vs. max overall boost in REW EQ tool)?

Basically looking for some tips regarding this...
I'm imtrested in the answer here also. If wondered this for a long time.

I didn't not realize that cutting would also eat up headroom.

I have heard that it is good to have minor boost AND cuts throughout instead of just doing one or the other.

Let's see what the pros say....

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post #24035 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Are there any guidelines for safely applying boost filters for sub EQ? (Via REW/MiniDSP 2?4 unbalanced)

I don't mean boosting at the bottom end, but any dips in response in the middle. And I don't mean nulls.

Also, I read on some other sites that both cutting and boosting eat up headroom, so there is no free lunch in that regard.

And when it comes to boosting, are there guidelines for gain and Q (and max individual boost vs. max overall boost in REW EQ tool)?

Basically looking for some tips regarding this...
Are you sure they aren't nulls? Honest question.
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post #24036 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by newc33 View Post
I'm imtrested in the answer here also. If wondered this for a long time.



I didn't not realize that cutting would also eat up headroom.



I have heard that it is good to have minor boost AND cuts throughout instead of just doing one or the other.



Let's see what the pros say....


Eq, wether it is a boost or a cut, does not affect a subwoofers output capability.


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post #24037 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Eq, wether it is a boost or a cut, does not affect a subwoofers output capability.


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Now I'm really confused lol

I was always told that each time you ad 1db it takes up X amount of watts and it particularly bad to eq down low

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post #24038 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Eq, wether it is a boost or a cut, does not affect a subwoofers output capability.
Capability..maybe. But output..
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post #24039 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by newc33 View Post
Now I'm really confused lol

I was always told that each time you ad 1db it takes up X amount of watts and it particularly bad to eq down low

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This is true, but does not change the fact that eq does not alter a subwoofers output capability. If for example, the FV15HP can put out a maximum of 107 dB at 20 Hz, no amount of positive eq can make the subwoofer put out more than 107 dB. Positive eq will cause the sub to hit this output limit at a lower MV. An eq cut will cause the subwoofer to hit this output level at a higher MV level. In neither instance does it change the fact that the most you are going to get is 107 dB.
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post #24040 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by newc33 View Post
Now I'm really confused lol

I was always told that each time you ad 1db it takes up X amount of watts and it particularly bad to eq down low
For the most part that's true, but based upon what he posted after your original question it sounds like you and Bear might have been referring to something different.


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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
This is true, but does not change the fact that eq does not alter a subwoofers output capability. If for example, the FV15HP can put out a maximum of 107 dB at 20 Hz, no amount of positive eq can make the subwoofer put out more than 107 dB. Positive eq will cause the sub to hit this output limit at a lower MV. An eq cut will cause the subwoofer to hit this output level at a higher MV level. In neither instance does it change the fact that the most you are going to get is 107 dB.

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post #24041 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 12:55 PM
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Yet the question remains if you have peaks and dips, do you split the difference when determining target level and boost dips and cut peaks OR cut only (but cut considerably more to achieve flat response... set target level to lowest point of deepest dip).

And if you cut and boost, is there a max gain/Q to use when boosting, both for individual filters and overall (summed filter response)?


And does the approach I take with regard to all this affect headroom once AVR auto-cal is run and SW trim and SW gain have been adjusted to get the usual sub level relative to the speakers?

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post #24042 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Yet the question remains if you have peaks and dips, do you split the difference when determining target level and boost dips and cut peaks OR cut only (but cut considerably more to achieve flat response... set target level to lowest point of deepest dip).

And if you cut and boost, is there a max gain/Q to use when boosting, both for individual filters and overall (summed filter response)?

And does the approach I take with regard to all this affect headroom once AVR auto-cal is run and SW trim and SW gain have been adjusted to get the usual sub level relative to the speakers?
There's nothing set in stone with regards to the best method of flattening out frequency response. Every room is different, as are the preferences of the person who owns the system, so I'm not sure a standard is even realistic. Personally I tend to focus more on dropping the peaks, provided they aren't too steep. If you lop off a lot in one area you can quash the dynamics in that same range, so if possible I'll drop the peak(s) a few dB and then raise the surrounding frequencies to try and balance things out.

A billiard table flat response is very difficult, even in a treated room, so at the end of the day I let my ears decide how far to go. What I don't do is obsess; I tweak until it sounds right and then I sit back and enjoy.

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post #24043 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 02:38 PM
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There's nothing set in stone with regards to the best method of flattening out frequency response. Every room is different, as are the preferences of the person who owns the system, so I'm not sure a standard is even realistic. Personally I tend to focus more on dropping the peaks, provided they aren't too steep. If you lop off a lot in one area you can quash the dynamics in that same range, so if possible I'll drop the peak(s) a few dB and then raise the surrounding frequencies to try and balance things out.

A billiard table flat response is very difficult, even in a treated room, so at the end of the day I let my ears decide how far to go. What I don't do is obsess; I tweak until it sounds right and then I sit back and enjoy.
Hmmm, maybe one day I'll try "tweeking", but being an old guy, for now I'll just keep enjoying my HT and 2.1 setups sans any tweeking at all Heresy some might say

Oh wait, maybe angling my CC up a bit qualifies...

Oh well, hope everyone enjoys their 4th of July weekend, time to check out some "new" records that just arrived
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post #24044 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 02:51 PM
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Hmmm, maybe one day I'll try "tweeking", but being an old guy, for now I'll just keep enjoying my HT and 2.1 setups sans any tweeking at all Heresy you say
No, you're not a heretic at all. Thankfully I don't have an obsessive personality, so I'm quite content with making things sound good and then I'll leave them alone. I know some aren't like that though, and I feel for those folks. Constantly tweaking, adjusting, testing, measuring, rearranging, on and on in an endless cycle. I bought this stuff to enjoy, not for it to become a second job. If I want to be busy constantly I'll have a few more kids...
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post #24045 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 04:18 PM
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No, you're not a heretic at all. Thankfully I don't have an obsessive personality, so I'm quite content with making things sound good and then I'll leave them alone. I know some aren't like that though, and I feel for those folks. Constantly tweaking, adjusting, testing, measuring, rearranging, on and on in an endless cycle. I bought this stuff to enjoy, not for it to become a second job. If I want to be busy constantly I'll have a few more kids...
Hi Jim, I really didn't think you would say it and I edited it from "you" to "some might" which is what I was thinking with "you" as anyone who might read it. I'm not always the best in the writing skills department

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post #24046 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 06:04 PM
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Additionally, I have to thank you regarding your review of the LV12R. You mentioned that the rear port needs a foot or so of breathing room. I previously kept the sub significantly less than a foot from the wall and after giving it more space I can now use low bass extension without excessive muddiness/boominess. (That and not unintentionally boosting the low end by setting target level too low and cutting too much.)

It seems any low end boost via EQ, intended/direct or not may lower your f3 point but it doesn't sound better (as I imagine the benefits room gain would provide).
It's funny you mention that review... I've published close to 50 evaluations at this point, and the LV12R is in the top 3 when it comes to comments/mentions/views. Even though I posted it about 3 years ago that subwoofer still gets a lot of love. Seems Brian hit the nail on the head with the LV12R. The number of PM's and emails I'm now getting asking about the upcoming 18" model has me wondering if I need to speak with him (or Enrico) about getting one of those to test. Be that as it may...

I've never subscribed to the 'port only needs its diameter from the wall' theory. Personally, I've never found a sub with a 3" port that only requires 3" of space from the wall. My experience is it takes at least 2x port diameter (so 6" for a 3" port) to effectively displace the air during times of heavy excursion. With the LV12R it was more like 4x port diameter, and based upon what you're saying it seems that's what you found as well.

While doing a review I tend to play around with things in order to find the limits, and in so doing often stumble upon the ideal setup in the process. If the latter occurs I use that particular configuration as the basis for what ultimately gets published. In the case of the LV12R I had the port about a foot from the rear wall, and for me that proved to be optimal.
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post #24047 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 06:06 PM
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It's funny you mention that review... I've published close to 50 evaluations at this point, and the LV12R is in the top 3 when it comes to comments/mentions/views. Even though I posted it about 3 years ago that subwoofer still gets a lot of love. Seems Brian hit the nail on the head with the LV12R. The number of PM's and emails I'm now getting asking about the upcoming 18" model has me wondering if I need to speak with him (or Enrico) about getting one of those to test. Be that as it may...



I've never subscribed to the 'port only needs its diameter from the wall' theory. Personally, I've never found a sub with a 3" port that only requires 3" of space from the wall. My experience is it takes at least 2x port diameter (so 6" for a 3" port) to effectively displace the air during times of heavy excursion. With the LV12R it was more like 4x port diameter, and based upon what you're saying it seems that's what you found as well.



While doing a review I tend to play around with things in order to find the limits, and in so doing often stumble upon the ideal setup in the process. If the latter occurs I use that particular configuration as the basis for what ultimately gets published. In the case of the LV12R I had the port about a foot from the rear wall, and for me that proved to be optimal.


Seeing as how I have one coming in the mail, can I get a link to your review of the LV12R?


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post #24048 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 06:25 PM
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Seeing as how I have one coming in the mail, can I get a link to your review of the LV12R?
Click this link to read my evaluation on the LV12R.

I monitor this thread so I know you got screwed by the freight company on the delivery - ironically, the same position I'm in with my next review unit - but I can assure you that once you get the LV12R you'll be quite pleased. It doesn't look like it can do a lot, but the thing is deceiving. You'll find out soon enough.

Be sure to post your assessment after it's been broken in and you've had the chance to test it out some.

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post #24049 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 06:29 PM
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My FV15HP port is 2" from the wall with it front cover on. In that particular spot in my room the FR is as flat as it can get and the bass hit in the chest. Funny thing on the same wall 5ft or so to my left it gives the same effect but with the driver facing out.

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post #24050 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 06:34 PM
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Click this link to read my evaluation on the LV12R.



I monitor this thread so I know you got screwed by the freight company on the delivery - ironically, the same position I'm in with my next review unit - but I can assure you that once you get the LV12R you'll be quite pleased. It doesn't look like it can do a lot, but the thing is deceiving. You'll find out soon enough.



Be sure to post your assessment after it's been broken in and you've had the chance to test it out some.


Yeah - freaking UPS...

Definitely will post my assessment - although I'm no expert. But I can still let everyone know how I think it sounds in general.

Awesome review (found it myself 10-15 min back). Thanks for that, even if it was over 3 years ago. I love how you called out specific parts of specific movies and songs. I'll be trying those out for sure. I'll probably be back in here asking for some settings/setup help when it arrives. Seems like it's very versatile and able to take on different sound signatures. I'll likely want to set it up for less of rumbling bass and more of the "punches you in the chest" (I believe was the verbiage) sound.

Also you mentioned breaking it in for 15 hours in your review before truly reviewing it. How did you accomplish this?


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post #24051 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 07:11 PM
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Also you mentioned breaking it in for 15 hours in your review before truly reviewing it. How did you accomplish this?
For the most part I use aggressive music (read: heavy metal) at an elevated volume. The duration is purely speculative though; for inexpensive subwoofers it's usually about 10 hours. For the higher-end models I often extend that to around 20 hours, but even that can vary. My goal is to ensure things have loosened up before I start to get serious, but since few manufacturers provide much guidance in that area I'm essentially left to my own devices.
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post #24052 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 07:14 PM
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Yeah - freaking UPS...

Definitely will post my assessment - although I'm no expert. But I can still let everyone know how I think it sounds in general.

Awesome review (found it myself 10-15 min back). Thanks for that, even if it was over 3 years ago. I love how you called out specific parts of specific movies and songs. I'll be trying those out for sure. I'll probably be back in here asking for some settings/setup help when it arrives. Seems like it's very versatile and able to take on different sound signatures. I'll likely want to set it up for less of rumbling bass and more of the "punches you in the chest" (I believe was the verbiage) sound.

Also you mentioned breaking it in for 15 hours in your review before truly reviewing it. How did you accomplish this?


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For break in I do nothing unusual. Run Audyssey, ARC, YPAO or whatever software your receiver comes with and after 6 to 8 movies or 15 hours listening to music at normal listening levels I run Audyssey again and that's it.



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Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
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BTW, here is my last project. I finished it yesterday. Here some pictures of my new bedroom setup

HTM62 S2 Center above the TV with IsoAcoustics stand on a shelf





B&W 685 S2 and HTM62 S2, Marantz NR1606 receiver, Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 and Rythmik Audio LVX12 subwoofer







Polk Audio TL3 surround speakers attached to the bed's headboard with VideoSecu wall mounts







Free hardwood floor sample from Home Depot to attach wall mount to the bed's headboard




Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
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post #24054 of 30666 Old 07-02-2016, 07:28 PM
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Excellent bedroom setup!! The best system setup next to a dedicated HT room in my opinion

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Receiver - Sony STR-DH550
Fronts - Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-280F
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Sub - Rythmik FV15HP
The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts Heavy Cinematic | Heavy Electronic|
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post #24055 of 30666 Old 07-03-2016, 06:38 AM
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Additionally, I have to thank you regarding your review of the LV12R. You mentioned that the rear port needs a foot or so of breathing room. I previously kept the sub significantly less than a foot from the wall and after giving it more space I can now use low bass extension without excessive muddiness/boominess. (That and not unintentionally boosting the low end by setting target level too low and cutting too much.)

It seems any low end boost via EQ, intended/direct or not may lower your f3 point but it doesn't sound better (as I imagine the benefits room gain would provide).
It's funny you mention that review... I've published close to 50 evaluations at this point, and the LV12R is in the top 3 when it comes to comments/mentions/views. Even though I posted it about 3 years ago that subwoofer still gets a lot of love. Seems Brian hit the nail on the head with the LV12R. The number of PM's and emails I'm now getting asking about the upcoming 18" model has me wondering if I need to speak with him (or Enrico) about getting one of those to test. Be that as it may...

I've never subscribed to the 'port only needs its diameter from the wall' theory. Personally, I've never found a sub with a 3" port that only requires 3" of space from the wall. My experience is it takes at least 2x port diameter (so 6" for a 3" port) to effectively displace the air during times of heavy excursion. With the LV12R it was more like 4x port diameter, and based upon what you're saying it seems that's what you found as well.

While doing a review I tend to play around with things in order to find the limits, and in so doing often stumble upon the ideal setup in the process. If the latter occurs I use that particular configuration as the basis for what ultimately gets published. In the case of the LV12R I had the port about a foot from the rear wall, and for me that proved to be optimal.
I wonder if the 13 inch port length is why it needs a full foot of breathing room and 4x the port diameter.

The main reason I avoided giving it that much room until now was I didn't want the sub sticking out too much into the center of the room. I had tried anywhere from 3-9 inches, with 9 inches having the cleanest, clearest sound and 3 inches having the most tactile sound but with (rather) significantly lesser sound quality on the low end.

Honestly, this simple change has more effect on sound quality than playing around with various sub EQ filters.

(Yet FR and waterfall graphs don't show any obvious difference between placing the sub 3, 6, 9, or 12 inches, etc. from the wall.)


BTW, I think you should try to get a LVX12 to review. After reading your LV12R review, I get the feeling many would like to hear from you how the LVX12 improves upon it. And such a review could result in a lot more buyers for that new model as I know your LV12R review was the main thing that helped me confidently choose Rythmik over SVS (PB-1000) and the like.
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post #24056 of 30666 Old 07-03-2016, 06:50 AM
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My FV15HP port is 2" from the wall with it front cover on. In that particular spot in my room the FR is as flat as it can get and the bass hit in the chest. Funny thing on the same wall 5ft or so to my left it gives the same effect but with the driver facing out.

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I'm sure your room acoustics are quite different since you get a lot of room gain and (possibly, just guessing here) your preferences for bass may be more focused on LFE impact/intensity whereas I listen at modest levels (-30MV) with clean/clear sound being the top priority even if I don't get as much kick/slam as a result.

(Not that there is anything wrong with either approach, just personal preferences.)
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post #24057 of 30666 Old 07-03-2016, 06:52 AM
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Excellent bedroom setup!! The best system setup next to a dedicated HT room in my opinion

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+1, wish my bedroom setup was that ideal.
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post #24058 of 30666 Old 07-03-2016, 11:42 AM
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I wonder if the 13 inch port length is why it needs a full foot of breathing room and 4x the port diameter.
Port length won't really be a factor in the equation. Ports often are longer than any single cabinet dimension, so if length was a consideration you would need to keep some rear-firing subwoofers a few feet from any surface. From my experience it appears the ratio is determined more by air volume and velocity then anything else; the more output from the port the greater the distance required to 'blend' the sound. I'm no engineer though, so I can only go by what my ears tell me.


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(Yet FR and waterfall graphs don't show any obvious difference between placing the sub 3, 6, 9, or 12 inches, etc. from the wall.)
I'm not surprised by this. I've always advocated the notion that not everything you can hear will show up in a graph. That's blasphemy to some, but for me it's true so I won't be dissuaded. I've read comments from some of the most respected audio engineers in the business - people like Brian Ding, Andrew Jones and Mark Seaton - who have basically echoed that sentiment. They tune, shape and tailor the sound until it looks good on paper, then they use their own ears for the last step. To me that's a clear indication you can't map out everything, and I'm 100% fine with it. Audio reproduction is not merely a clinical pursuit, there's more to it then that.

Often when I make such an assertion there will be a snarky remark from one or two people, but I've long since learned how to ignore them. I know what my ears like, and sometimes it simply doesn't show up in a graph. There's a passion to aspects of audio reproduction, the portion that makes it come to life for an individual, and that's not something you can see on a chart. That perhaps sounds a bit corny, but it's true. At least for me it is.


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BTW, I think you should try to get a LVX12 to review. After reading your LV12R review, I get the feeling many would like to hear from you how the LVX12 improves upon it. And such a review could result in a lot more buyers for that new model as I know your LV12R review was the main thing that helped me confidently choose Rythmik over SVS (PB-1000) and the like.
I actually do take requests, as it were. If I see a trend with the questions being asked on the forums, or some pattern in my PM's and emails, I will contact a manufacturer with a specific suggestion. Often they're accommodating, but there are times when they've opted to send me something else. I know Brian monitors this thread, so if he sees something he'll more than likely act on it. In the past he's been quite good about contacting me if he wants to request a review on a product.
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post #24059 of 30666 Old 07-03-2016, 04:36 PM
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The reason port diameter is generally regarded as plenty of distance to keep a subwoofer spaced from a wall is that it gives plenty of space for the port to breathe. If a 3 or 4" port is large enough, then 3-4" of spacing with freedom to flow in all directions between the port in the wall is much less restrictive to air movement than the port itself. Now I would imaging that having the port fairly close to the wall would possibly slightly lower effective tune, as you would be essentially slightly elongating the port. As far as drastic sound quality differences, I'm guessing a lot of that is simply hearing what we want to hear. If the sound were changed drastically, it would show up on measurements. Measurement equipment is orders of magnitude more sensitive/accurate than our hearing.
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post #24060 of 30666 Old 07-04-2016, 05:26 AM
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I wonder if the 13 inch port length is why it needs a full foot of breathing room and 4x the port diameter.
Port length won't really be a factor in the equation. Ports often are longer than any single cabinet dimension, so if length was a consideration you would need to keep some rear-firing subwoofers a few feet from any surface. From my experience it appears the ratio is determined more by air volume and velocity then anything else; the more output from the port the greater the distance required to 'blend' the sound. I'm no engineer though, so I can only go by what my ears tell me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
(Yet FR and waterfall graphs don't show any obvious difference between placing the sub 3, 6, 9, or 12 inches, etc. from the wall.)
I'm not surprised by this. I've always advocated the notion that not everything you can hear will show up in a graph. That's blasphemy to some, but for me it's true so I won't be dissuaded. I've read comments from some of the most respected audio engineers in the business - people like Brian Ding, Andrew Jones and Mark Seaton - who have basically echoed that sentiment. They tune, shape and tailor the sound until it looks good on paper, then they use their own ears for the last step. To me that's a clear indication you can't map out everything, and I'm 100% fine with it. Audio reproduction is not merely a clinical pursuit, there's more to it then that.

Often when I make such an assertion there will be a snarky remark from one or two people, but I've long since learned how to ignore them. I know what my ears like, and sometimes it simply doesn't show up in a graph. There's a passion to aspects of audio reproduction, the portion that makes it come to life for an individual, and that's not something you can see on a chart. That perhaps sounds a bit corny, but it's true. At least for me it is.


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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
BTW, I think you should try to get a LVX12 to review. After reading your LV12R review, I get the feeling many would like to hear from you how the LVX12 improves upon it. And such a review could result in a lot more buyers for that new model as I know your LV12R review was the main thing that helped me confidently choose Rythmik over SVS (PB-1000) and the like.
I actually do take requests, as it were. If I see a trend with the questions being asked on the forums, or some pattern in my PM's and emails, I will contact a manufacturer with a specific suggestion. Often they're accommodating, but there are times when they've opted to send me something else. I know Brian monitors this thread, so if he sees something he'll more than likely act on it. In the past he's been quite good about contacting me if he wants to request a review on a product.
Yes, I agree that measurements help verify that there are no major issues you're overlooking by listening alone. However, relying on measurements alone can produce great looking graphs and and poor SQ subjectively.

And my last sub was down ported with front firing driver, but keeping it away from the wall also cleaned up the sound.

I realize that a combination of measurements and listening critically produce best results. Some think it's one or the other, but I don't (in my experience).
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