Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 817 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #24481 of 24545 Old 07-20-2016, 06:48 PM
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To all the new sub owners out there. With you new Rythmik subs you WILL be hearing things in the LFE channel that you have not heard/felt before. You will have a new appreciation for LFE, one that will have you watching/sampling all kinds of weird music and random movie clips just to exercise that sub of yours.

Words of wisdom from a FV15Hp owner.

Regards,

RTROSE
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post #24482 of 24545 Old 07-20-2016, 07:10 PM
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Thanks !!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
If you have to ask you may not have the expertise to dial in a DIY filter.

It looks like a standard film capacitor but there are many types of films. Most any should be OK for this. Do not use an electrolytic (polarized) or ceramic (e.g. X5R, X7R) capacitor.

fp = 1/(2*pi*R*C)

So if you use a 5 k-ohm resistor and assume the source is 0 ohms and load infinite ohms (probably close enough for this) then 100 Hz requires about 0.32 uF (0.33 uF is a standard value) and 150 Hz needs about 0.21 uF (0.22 uF is a standard value).

Personally I'd stick with the filter in the sub.

HTH - Don
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post #24483 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 04:46 AM
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My theater space is on a concrete slab, and I've never really been satisfied with the bass response. There are a couple of threads I came across on AVS which I believe can successfully address this.:
- "Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Tactile Response" and "The Official Crowson Motion Actuators Thread". In both threads you'll find wildly enthusiastic responses from those that have implemented the suggestions. The recommended MBM is only around $300, which makes it even more attractive. I know you guys are into bass, so I'd like to get some reaction on what you think of these suggestions. Admittedly, the Crowson's aren't cheap, but I've yet to find anything but glowing reviews for them. I plan to implement both when my reconstruction project is complete. I think these guys have advanced the state of subwooferage with their research here.


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post #24484 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post
From the Rythmik site..

"It is true that all op-amps have coloration to some degree. If you can hear the coloration of op-amps, we recommend a first order RC passive network with corner frequency of 100-150 Hz. The reason for this high corner frequency is to compensate for the slower roll-off of a first order filter. It is important that this RC network be placed close to the power amp input terminals (or even inside the power amp if that is possible), to avoid signal degradation. Essentially the output of this filter has a high drive impedance below 200 Hz. Pictured above is the RC filter that we made with one RCA jack and one RCA plug. Keep in mind this option is somewhat expensive, as one needs to buy a pair of each. It may run from $40-$100 depending on the brand used (in our case, Vampire). The jack is not soldered to the plug, as the plug has a cable holder screw which is used to hold the two together. Only the resistor and capacitor are soldered. The recommended resistor value is 5k ohms for solid state pre-amps and higher for tube pre-amps."



Can someone tell me the value of the Capacitor and what kind of capacitor is this ? (Film ?)
If you really want to try this without having to build anything, then there's always http://www.parts-express.com/harriso...s-rca--266-256
They make a 100hz low pass as well.

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post #24485 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 06:20 AM
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Level 5 Photoshop skills I wish he had REW and a mic it would be awesome to see how well the responce is.

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Just purchased a UMIK-1. I will be learning/trying to do REW in the next week or so (as soon as the Mic comes). I'll be posting questions and results in this thread so as not to hijack this one.
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post #24486 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 06:35 AM
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I'll be posting questions and results in this thread so as not to hijack this one.
Thanks.
Thats good of you. It can be quite a lengthy process.
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post #24487 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Just purchased a UMIK-1. I will be learning/trying to do REW in the next week or so (as soon as the Mic comes). I'll be posting questions and results in this thread so as not to hijack this one.
You'll also want a boom mic stand, if you don't already have one. Something cheap does the job perfectly. For example:
https://www.amazon.com/Samson-BL3-Ul.../dp/B0002ORP8E
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post #24488 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
You'll also want a boom mic stand, if you don't already have one. Something cheap does the job perfectly. For example:
https://www.amazon.com/Samson-BL3-Ul.../dp/B0002ORP8E
That one was on 1 -3 month back-order. Just purchased this one instead - same thing I assume.

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post #24489 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
That one was on 1 -3 month back-order. Just purchased this one instead - same thing I assume.
Perfect.
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post #24490 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Just purchased a UMIK-1. I will be learning/trying to do REW in the next week or so (as soon as the Mic comes). I'll be posting questions and results in this thread so as not to hijack this one.
Nice!!, Good purchase will you consider an Minidsp 2x4 HD or miniDSP 2x4? or i guess it will depend on how good your in room response is.

Receiver - Sony STR-DH550
Fronts - Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-280F
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Surrounds - Don't ask lol
Sub - Rythmik FV15HP
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post #24491 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
You'll also want a boom mic stand, if you don't already have one. Something cheap does the job perfectly. For example:
https://www.amazon.com/Samson-BL3-Ul.../dp/B0002ORP8E
Why?

Can't you just use the one that comes in the box and place in on a stack of books or DVD's to get it to height?
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post #24492 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
My theater space is on a concrete slab, and I've never really been satisfied with the bass response. There are a couple of threads I came across on AVS which I believe can successfully address this.:
- "Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Tactile Response" and "The Official Crowson Motion Actuators Thread". In both threads you'll find wildly enthusiastic responses from those that have implemented the suggestions. The recommended MBM is only around $300, which makes it even more attractive. I know you guys are into bass, so I'd like to get some reaction on what you think of these suggestions. Admittedly, the Crowson's aren't cheap, but I've yet to find anything but glowing reviews for them. I plan to implement both when my reconstruction project is complete. I think these guys have advanced the state of subwooferage with their research here.
Those are good, and a few more that I'd add to the list:
* A nearfield subs can deliver good tactile response. It doesn't have to be a MBM.
* Good EQ. It helps to have more control over the bass response curve that you get just by tuning the sub level and crossover frequency.
* For real slam, mains that can deliver high output impulses at mid and high frequencies. Mids and highs aren't technically tactile, but it still contributes to perception of impact. (You have probable experienced this in discos, good movie theaters, and real life.)
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post #24493 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
Why?

Can't you just use the one that comes in the box and place in on a stack of books or DVD's to get it to height?
It makes it quick and easy to place the mic a the right position and angle without worrying about adding reflections or resonances from a stack of boxes, etc.

It's not critical, but IMO, it's worth $20.
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post #24494 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
* For real slam, mains that can deliver high output impulses at mid and high frequencies. Mids and highs aren't technically tactile, but it still contributes to perception of impact.
This brings up a question I've had for a while. My mains are capable to play frequencies down to 34Hz. My Surrounds are rated down to 42Hz, and my center is rated down to 48Hz. The front heights I have, however, are rated down to 80Hz. Unfortunately my AVR only lets me set a global crossover that is applied to all speakers set to SMALL (which all of mine are). I've set the crossover to 80Hz (well MCACC actually did). I've read conflicting advise saying that its good to set a higher crossover, even with speakers competent below your settings, so that the lower frequencies are handled by your Sub and therefore your other speakers only play the higher frequencies - which results in a less muddied sound.

Alternatively, like you are saying, setting the crossover lower, allows your mains and other speakers with somewhat low frequency playback capabilities to enhance the bass experience as it will be coming from not just the Sub, but the woofers on the speakers as well.

So my question is this. Should I set my crossover as it is at 80Hz (since the front heights can't go lower, or else I would have asked if i should set it at 50Hz), or should I raise it up to 100Hz or even 150Hz and let the LV12R take care of anything under that so my mains, center, surrounds, and heights can focus on the higher frequencies for a clearer sound? I kind of feel like I'm wasting the point of having tower speakers with woofers in them if I do that though.

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post #24495 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
This brings up a question I've had for a while. My mains are capable to play frequencies down to 34Hz. My Surrounds are rated down to 42Hz, and my center is rated down to 48Hz. The front heights I have, however, are rated down to 80Hz. Unfortunately my AVR only lets me set a global crossover that is applied to all speakers set to SMALL (which all of mine are). I've set the crossover to 80Hz (well MCACC actually did). I've read conflicting advise saying that its good to set a higher crossover, even with speakers competent below your settings, so that the lower frequencies are handled by your Sub and therefore your other speakers only play the higher frequencies which results in a less muddied sound.

Alternatively, like you are saying, setting the crossover lower, allows your mains and other speakers with somewhat low frequency playback capabilities to enhance the bass experience as it will be coming from not just the Sub, but the woofers on the speakers as well.

So my question is this. Should I set my crossover as it is at 80Hz (since the front heights can't go lower, or else I would have asked if i should set it at 50Hz), or should I raise it up to 100Hz or even 150Hz and let the LV12R take care of anything under that so my mains, center, surrounds, and heights can focus on the higher frequencies for a clearer sound? I kind of feel like I'm wasting the point of having tower speakers with woofers in them if I do that though.
Go with what what you like the best, with guidance from measurements. A lot of this depends on the room acoustics and speaker capabilities, as well as how good of a job you do integrating the subs with the mains.

I got best results crossing all speakers at 100hz, but YMMV.

More speakers making bass isn't necessarily better...especially not if they are out of phase and cancel out.
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post #24496 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
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Why?

Can't you just use the one that comes in the box and place in on a stack of books or DVD's to get it to height?
Not if you want good results.
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post #24497 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Go with what what you like the best, with guidance from measurements. A lot of this depends on the room acoustics and speaker capabilities, as well as how good of a job you do integrating the subs with the mains.

I got best results crossing all speakers at 100hz, but YMMV.

More speakers making bass isn't necessarily better...especially not if they are out of phase and cancel out.
Good to know - so when EQ'ing the LV12R with REW, one option I have to help if needed is adjusting the crossover.

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post #24498 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 10:19 AM
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So my question is this. Should I set my crossover as it is at 80Hz
REW will answer that. Its part of the process.
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post #24499 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 10:20 AM
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the crossover point is not a hard cutoff point. when I was tweaking my system I tried all the different points with rew. the differences were negligible. speaker/sub locations were by far the most important factor for performance.

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Good to know - so when EQ'ing the LV12R with REW, one option I have to help if needed is adjusting the crossover.
Correct
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post #24501 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
So my question is this. Should I set my crossover as it is at 80Hz (since the front heights can't go lower, or else I would have asked if i should set it at 50Hz), or should I raise it up to 100Hz or even 150Hz and let the LV12R take care of anything under that so my mains, center, surrounds, and heights can focus on the higher frequencies for a clearer sound? I kind of feel like I'm wasting the point of having tower speakers with woofers in them if I do that though.
As a general rule when you can only set a single crossover... make it align with the least capable speakers. Weakest link in the chain, so to speak. However, you might be able to get away with setting it a little lower because the surrounds do very little so if there's a gap between their lowest output and where the subwoofer is crossed at it won't be all that noticeable. If it were me though I'd go with 80 and be done with it.

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post #24502 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 10:24 AM
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A couple more subtleties:

Since your mains and sub(s) have different locations, they will have different nulls. That's the main reason why the best crossover frequency can depend on the room.

Also, setting different crossover frequencies with different speakers can yield very inconsistent frequency response curves if your sub level is boosted.
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post #24503 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
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As a general rule when you can only set a single crossover... make it align with the least capable speakers. Weakest link in the chain, so to speak. However, you might be able to get away with setting it a little lower because the surrounds do very little so if there's a gap between their lowest output and where the subwoofer is crossed at it won't be all that noticeable. If it were me though I'd go with 80 and be done with it.
+1
With REW Id experiment some.
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post #24504 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
As a general rule when you can only set a single crossover... make it align with the least capable speakers. Weakest link in the chain, so to speak. However, you might be able to get away with setting it a little lower because the surrounds do very little so if there's a gap between their lowest output and where the subwoofer is crossed at it won't be all that noticeable. If it were me though I'd go with 80 and be done with it.
I'll likely leave it at 80Hz barring any REW results that are favorable for some reason at a higher frequency. My main concern at this point is that if I come back with nulls or other problems at my MLP, I have very little wiggle room in positioning of the speakers, especially the sub due to it's size. If nulls wind up being present, I may consider a mid bass module next to the couch at the MLP (but it would have to be small or else hidden. If I can't do that - I guess I would consider some buttkickers (if the nulls were in the higher of the lower frequencies). haha.

Quick other question regarding the LV12R. I notice it has Frequency Response that's generally flat down to 19Hz. Is this meant to show its capabilities in ideal conditions? I.e. is this the "gold standard" I should be trying to replicate in my own room?

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==============================

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post #24505 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
This brings up a question I've had for a while. My mains are capable to play frequencies down to 34Hz. My Surrounds are rated down to 42Hz, and my center is rated down to 48Hz. The front heights I have, however, are rated down to 80Hz. Unfortunately my AVR only lets me set a global crossover that is applied to all speakers set to SMALL (which all of mine are). I've set the crossover to 80Hz (well MCACC actually did). I've read conflicting advise saying that its good to set a higher crossover, even with speakers competent below your settings, so that the lower frequencies are handled by your Sub and therefore your other speakers only play the higher frequencies - which results in a less muddied sound.

Alternatively, like you are saying, setting the crossover lower, allows your mains and other speakers with somewhat low frequency playback capabilities to enhance the bass experience as it will be coming from not just the Sub, but the woofers on the speakers as well.

So my question is this. Should I set my crossover as it is at 80Hz (since the front heights can't go lower, or else I would have asked if i should set it at 50Hz), or should I raise it up to 100Hz or even 150Hz and let the LV12R take care of anything under that so my mains, center, surrounds, and heights can focus on the higher frequencies for a clearer sound? I kind of feel like I'm wasting the point of having tower speakers with woofers in them if I do that though.
Along with the other great comments you've gotten on this, keep in mind that most auto-EQ programs (and I think MCACC is no exception) only EQ down to the measured -3dB point of your speakers. If you set your crossover lower than as was set by MCACC, you will then have an un-EQ'ed "hole" in your response.


Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I'll likely leave it at 80Hz barring any REW results that are favorable for some reason at a higher frequency. My main concern at this point is that if I come back with nulls or other problems at my MLP, I have very little wiggle room in positioning of the speakers, especially the sub due to it's size. If nulls wind up being present, I may consider a mid bass module next to the couch at the MLP (but it would have to be small or else hidden. If I can't do that - I guess I would consider some buttkickers (if the nulls were in the higher of the lower frequencies). haha.

Quick other question regarding the LV12R. I notice it has Frequency Response that's generally flat down to 19Hz. Is this meant to show its capabilities in ideal conditions? I.e. is this the "gold standard" I should be trying to replicate in my own room?

Those measurements are likely taken outdoors (groundplane). You should expect to see a bit more extension in-room due to room gain. You're response will most likely not be nearly as flat either, but it's something to shoot for.
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post #24506 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post

Quick other question regarding the LV12R. I notice it has Frequency Response that's generally flat down to 19Hz. Is this meant to show its capabilities in ideal conditions? I.e. is this the "gold standard" I should be trying to replicate in my own room?

I like my curve to have a boost of 5db or so 80hz and below. many others like a flat response. I had a flat response for about 6 months and it was super smooth sounding. but after I purchased the 15hp, I liked the boosted bass a bit more. I also like a little boost in the vocal/midbass area of the curve.

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post #24507 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
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Quick other question regarding the LV12R. I notice it has Frequency Response that's generally flat down to 19Hz. Is this meant to show its capabilities in ideal conditions? I.e. is this the "gold standard" I should be trying to replicate in my own room?

Those are likely ground plane or anechoic measurements, which in real terms essentially means gold standard. The room a sub is placed in will always have an effect, so trying to replicate that response will be next to impossible. Get it as good as you can and then sit back and enjoy.
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post #24508 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Those are good, and a few more that I'd add to the list:

* A nearfield subs can deliver good tactile response. It doesn't have to be a MBM.

* Good EQ. It helps to have more control over the bass response curve that you get just by tuning the sub level and crossover frequency.

* For real slam, mains that can deliver high output impulses at mid and high frequencies. Mids and highs aren't technically tactile, but it still contributes to perception of impact. (You have probable experienced this in discos, good movie theaters, and real life.)


As the posters in the MBM forum have conclusively demonstrated, any sub can be used nearfield to good effect, but ported subs, tuned between 50 and 70 offer the most slam. These are the chest rattling frequencies that are very tactile. It's difficult to get these frequencies AND the lower ones from any standard sub. The Crowson TT's can respond down to the single digits and can entirely transform the low bass experience. Neither eliminates the need for good front stage subs, but it's very difficult to get this kind of impact without employing MBM's and TT's. These guys made a believer out of me.


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post #24509 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I'll likely leave it at 80Hz barring any REW results that are favorable for some reason at a higher frequency. My main concern at this point is that if I come back with nulls or other problems at my MLP, I have very little wiggle room in positioning of the speakers, especially the sub due to it's size. If nulls wind up being present, I may consider a mid bass module next to the couch at the MLP (but it would have to be small or else hidden. If I can't do that - I guess I would consider some buttkickers (if the nulls were in the higher of the lower frequencies). haha.



Quick other question regarding the LV12R. I notice it has Frequency Response that's generally flat down to 19Hz. Is this meant to show its capabilities in ideal conditions? I.e. is this the "gold standard" I should be trying to replicate in my own room?





I think you'd find the thread "Nearfield Ported MBM's for Increased Tactile Response" very interesting reading.


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post #24510 of 24545 Old 07-21-2016, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Here is the song I play first every time I finish to calibrate ANY sound system. If this song sounds good, then any song will sound perfect!!!

Fourplay - Bali Run
Just played this in HIFI from Tidal airplaying through my Apple TV and it was hard for me to believe sound wasn't coming out of my center channel until I walked up to it. Guess that means at least the mains EQ and phase is correct? This song is awesome by the way besides sounding great!
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==============================
FS: Proficient GL6 Center Channel Speaker
==============================

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
==============================
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