Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 817 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 07-21-2016, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I'll be posting questions and results in this thread so as not to hijack this one.
Thanks.
Thats good of you. It can be quite a lengthy process.
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Old 07-21-2016, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Just purchased a UMIK-1. I will be learning/trying to do REW in the next week or so (as soon as the Mic comes). I'll be posting questions and results in this thread so as not to hijack this one.
You'll also want a boom mic stand, if you don't already have one. Something cheap does the job perfectly. For example:
https://www.amazon.com/Samson-BL3-Ul.../dp/B0002ORP8E
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Old 07-21-2016, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
You'll also want a boom mic stand, if you don't already have one. Something cheap does the job perfectly. For example:
https://www.amazon.com/Samson-BL3-Ul.../dp/B0002ORP8E
That one was on 1 -3 month back-order. Just purchased this one instead - same thing I assume.

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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Old 07-21-2016, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
That one was on 1 -3 month back-order. Just purchased this one instead - same thing I assume.
Perfect.
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Old 07-21-2016, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Just purchased a UMIK-1. I will be learning/trying to do REW in the next week or so (as soon as the Mic comes). I'll be posting questions and results in this thread so as not to hijack this one.
Nice!!, Good purchase will you consider an Minidsp 2x4 HD or miniDSP 2x4? or i guess it will depend on how good your in room response is.

Receiver - Sony STR-DH550
Fronts - Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-280F
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- Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-450C
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Sub - Rythmik FV15HP
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Old 07-21-2016, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
You'll also want a boom mic stand, if you don't already have one. Something cheap does the job perfectly. For example:
https://www.amazon.com/Samson-BL3-Ul.../dp/B0002ORP8E
Why?

Can't you just use the one that comes in the box and place in on a stack of books or DVD's to get it to height?
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Old 07-21-2016, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
My theater space is on a concrete slab, and I've never really been satisfied with the bass response. There are a couple of threads I came across on AVS which I believe can successfully address this.:
- "Nearfield Ported MBM for Increased Tactile Response" and "The Official Crowson Motion Actuators Thread". In both threads you'll find wildly enthusiastic responses from those that have implemented the suggestions. The recommended MBM is only around $300, which makes it even more attractive. I know you guys are into bass, so I'd like to get some reaction on what you think of these suggestions. Admittedly, the Crowson's aren't cheap, but I've yet to find anything but glowing reviews for them. I plan to implement both when my reconstruction project is complete. I think these guys have advanced the state of subwooferage with their research here.
Those are good, and a few more that I'd add to the list:
* A nearfield subs can deliver good tactile response. It doesn't have to be a MBM.
* Good EQ. It helps to have more control over the bass response curve that you get just by tuning the sub level and crossover frequency.
* For real slam, mains that can deliver high output impulses at mid and high frequencies. Mids and highs aren't technically tactile, but it still contributes to perception of impact. (You have probable experienced this in discos, good movie theaters, and real life.)
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Old 07-21-2016, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
Why?

Can't you just use the one that comes in the box and place in on a stack of books or DVD's to get it to height?
It makes it quick and easy to place the mic a the right position and angle without worrying about adding reflections or resonances from a stack of boxes, etc.

It's not critical, but IMO, it's worth $20.
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
* For real slam, mains that can deliver high output impulses at mid and high frequencies. Mids and highs aren't technically tactile, but it still contributes to perception of impact.
This brings up a question I've had for a while. My mains are capable to play frequencies down to 34Hz. My Surrounds are rated down to 42Hz, and my center is rated down to 48Hz. The front heights I have, however, are rated down to 80Hz. Unfortunately my AVR only lets me set a global crossover that is applied to all speakers set to SMALL (which all of mine are). I've set the crossover to 80Hz (well MCACC actually did). I've read conflicting advise saying that its good to set a higher crossover, even with speakers competent below your settings, so that the lower frequencies are handled by your Sub and therefore your other speakers only play the higher frequencies - which results in a less muddied sound.

Alternatively, like you are saying, setting the crossover lower, allows your mains and other speakers with somewhat low frequency playback capabilities to enhance the bass experience as it will be coming from not just the Sub, but the woofers on the speakers as well.

So my question is this. Should I set my crossover as it is at 80Hz (since the front heights can't go lower, or else I would have asked if i should set it at 50Hz), or should I raise it up to 100Hz or even 150Hz and let the LV12R take care of anything under that so my mains, center, surrounds, and heights can focus on the higher frequencies for a clearer sound? I kind of feel like I'm wasting the point of having tower speakers with woofers in them if I do that though.

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
This brings up a question I've had for a while. My mains are capable to play frequencies down to 34Hz. My Surrounds are rated down to 42Hz, and my center is rated down to 48Hz. The front heights I have, however, are rated down to 80Hz. Unfortunately my AVR only lets me set a global crossover that is applied to all speakers set to SMALL (which all of mine are). I've set the crossover to 80Hz (well MCACC actually did). I've read conflicting advise saying that its good to set a higher crossover, even with speakers competent below your settings, so that the lower frequencies are handled by your Sub and therefore your other speakers only play the higher frequencies which results in a less muddied sound.

Alternatively, like you are saying, setting the crossover lower, allows your mains and other speakers with somewhat low frequency playback capabilities to enhance the bass experience as it will be coming from not just the Sub, but the woofers on the speakers as well.

So my question is this. Should I set my crossover as it is at 80Hz (since the front heights can't go lower, or else I would have asked if i should set it at 50Hz), or should I raise it up to 100Hz or even 150Hz and let the LV12R take care of anything under that so my mains, center, surrounds, and heights can focus on the higher frequencies for a clearer sound? I kind of feel like I'm wasting the point of having tower speakers with woofers in them if I do that though.
Go with what what you like the best, with guidance from measurements. A lot of this depends on the room acoustics and speaker capabilities, as well as how good of a job you do integrating the subs with the mains.

I got best results crossing all speakers at 100hz, but YMMV.

More speakers making bass isn't necessarily better...especially not if they are out of phase and cancel out.
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
Why?

Can't you just use the one that comes in the box and place in on a stack of books or DVD's to get it to height?
Not if you want good results.
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Go with what what you like the best, with guidance from measurements. A lot of this depends on the room acoustics and speaker capabilities, as well as how good of a job you do integrating the subs with the mains.

I got best results crossing all speakers at 100hz, but YMMV.

More speakers making bass isn't necessarily better...especially not if they are out of phase and cancel out.
Good to know - so when EQ'ing the LV12R with REW, one option I have to help if needed is adjusting the crossover.

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:19 AM
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So my question is this. Should I set my crossover as it is at 80Hz
REW will answer that. Its part of the process.
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:20 AM
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the crossover point is not a hard cutoff point. when I was tweaking my system I tried all the different points with rew. the differences were negligible. speaker/sub locations were by far the most important factor for performance.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Velodyne HGS 12, VA 1512, Rythmik FV15HP
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Good to know - so when EQ'ing the LV12R with REW, one option I have to help if needed is adjusting the crossover.
Correct
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
So my question is this. Should I set my crossover as it is at 80Hz (since the front heights can't go lower, or else I would have asked if i should set it at 50Hz), or should I raise it up to 100Hz or even 150Hz and let the LV12R take care of anything under that so my mains, center, surrounds, and heights can focus on the higher frequencies for a clearer sound? I kind of feel like I'm wasting the point of having tower speakers with woofers in them if I do that though.
As a general rule when you can only set a single crossover... make it align with the least capable speakers. Weakest link in the chain, so to speak. However, you might be able to get away with setting it a little lower because the surrounds do very little so if there's a gap between their lowest output and where the subwoofer is crossed at it won't be all that noticeable. If it were me though I'd go with 80 and be done with it.

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Old 07-21-2016, 11:24 AM
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A couple more subtleties:

Since your mains and sub(s) have different locations, they will have different nulls. That's the main reason why the best crossover frequency can depend on the room.

Also, setting different crossover frequencies with different speakers can yield very inconsistent frequency response curves if your sub level is boosted.
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
As a general rule when you can only set a single crossover... make it align with the least capable speakers. Weakest link in the chain, so to speak. However, you might be able to get away with setting it a little lower because the surrounds do very little so if there's a gap between their lowest output and where the subwoofer is crossed at it won't be all that noticeable. If it were me though I'd go with 80 and be done with it.
+1
With REW Id experiment some.
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
As a general rule when you can only set a single crossover... make it align with the least capable speakers. Weakest link in the chain, so to speak. However, you might be able to get away with setting it a little lower because the surrounds do very little so if there's a gap between their lowest output and where the subwoofer is crossed at it won't be all that noticeable. If it were me though I'd go with 80 and be done with it.
I'll likely leave it at 80Hz barring any REW results that are favorable for some reason at a higher frequency. My main concern at this point is that if I come back with nulls or other problems at my MLP, I have very little wiggle room in positioning of the speakers, especially the sub due to it's size. If nulls wind up being present, I may consider a mid bass module next to the couch at the MLP (but it would have to be small or else hidden. If I can't do that - I guess I would consider some buttkickers (if the nulls were in the higher of the lower frequencies). haha.

Quick other question regarding the LV12R. I notice it has Frequency Response that's generally flat down to 19Hz. Is this meant to show its capabilities in ideal conditions? I.e. is this the "gold standard" I should be trying to replicate in my own room?

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My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15

Last edited by citsur86; 07-21-2016 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
This brings up a question I've had for a while. My mains are capable to play frequencies down to 34Hz. My Surrounds are rated down to 42Hz, and my center is rated down to 48Hz. The front heights I have, however, are rated down to 80Hz. Unfortunately my AVR only lets me set a global crossover that is applied to all speakers set to SMALL (which all of mine are). I've set the crossover to 80Hz (well MCACC actually did). I've read conflicting advise saying that its good to set a higher crossover, even with speakers competent below your settings, so that the lower frequencies are handled by your Sub and therefore your other speakers only play the higher frequencies - which results in a less muddied sound.

Alternatively, like you are saying, setting the crossover lower, allows your mains and other speakers with somewhat low frequency playback capabilities to enhance the bass experience as it will be coming from not just the Sub, but the woofers on the speakers as well.

So my question is this. Should I set my crossover as it is at 80Hz (since the front heights can't go lower, or else I would have asked if i should set it at 50Hz), or should I raise it up to 100Hz or even 150Hz and let the LV12R take care of anything under that so my mains, center, surrounds, and heights can focus on the higher frequencies for a clearer sound? I kind of feel like I'm wasting the point of having tower speakers with woofers in them if I do that though.
Along with the other great comments you've gotten on this, keep in mind that most auto-EQ programs (and I think MCACC is no exception) only EQ down to the measured -3dB point of your speakers. If you set your crossover lower than as was set by MCACC, you will then have an un-EQ'ed "hole" in your response.


Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I'll likely leave it at 80Hz barring any REW results that are favorable for some reason at a higher frequency. My main concern at this point is that if I come back with nulls or other problems at my MLP, I have very little wiggle room in positioning of the speakers, especially the sub due to it's size. If nulls wind up being present, I may consider a mid bass module next to the couch at the MLP (but it would have to be small or else hidden. If I can't do that - I guess I would consider some buttkickers (if the nulls were in the higher of the lower frequencies). haha.

Quick other question regarding the LV12R. I notice it has Frequency Response that's generally flat down to 19Hz. Is this meant to show its capabilities in ideal conditions? I.e. is this the "gold standard" I should be trying to replicate in my own room?

Those measurements are likely taken outdoors (groundplane). You should expect to see a bit more extension in-room due to room gain. You're response will most likely not be nearly as flat either, but it's something to shoot for.
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Old 07-21-2016, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post

Quick other question regarding the LV12R. I notice it has Frequency Response that's generally flat down to 19Hz. Is this meant to show its capabilities in ideal conditions? I.e. is this the "gold standard" I should be trying to replicate in my own room?

I like my curve to have a boost of 5db or so 80hz and below. many others like a flat response. I had a flat response for about 6 months and it was super smooth sounding. but after I purchased the 15hp, I liked the boosted bass a bit more. I also like a little boost in the vocal/midbass area of the curve.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Velodyne HGS 12, VA 1512, Rythmik FV15HP
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Old 07-21-2016, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Quick other question regarding the LV12R. I notice it has Frequency Response that's generally flat down to 19Hz. Is this meant to show its capabilities in ideal conditions? I.e. is this the "gold standard" I should be trying to replicate in my own room?

Those are likely ground plane or anechoic measurements, which in real terms essentially means gold standard. The room a sub is placed in will always have an effect, so trying to replicate that response will be next to impossible. Get it as good as you can and then sit back and enjoy.
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Old 07-21-2016, 03:47 PM
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Those are good, and a few more that I'd add to the list:

* A nearfield subs can deliver good tactile response. It doesn't have to be a MBM.

* Good EQ. It helps to have more control over the bass response curve that you get just by tuning the sub level and crossover frequency.

* For real slam, mains that can deliver high output impulses at mid and high frequencies. Mids and highs aren't technically tactile, but it still contributes to perception of impact. (You have probable experienced this in discos, good movie theaters, and real life.)


As the posters in the MBM forum have conclusively demonstrated, any sub can be used nearfield to good effect, but ported subs, tuned between 50 and 70 offer the most slam. These are the chest rattling frequencies that are very tactile. It's difficult to get these frequencies AND the lower ones from any standard sub. The Crowson TT's can respond down to the single digits and can entirely transform the low bass experience. Neither eliminates the need for good front stage subs, but it's very difficult to get this kind of impact without employing MBM's and TT's. These guys made a believer out of me.


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Old 07-21-2016, 03:52 PM
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I'll likely leave it at 80Hz barring any REW results that are favorable for some reason at a higher frequency. My main concern at this point is that if I come back with nulls or other problems at my MLP, I have very little wiggle room in positioning of the speakers, especially the sub due to it's size. If nulls wind up being present, I may consider a mid bass module next to the couch at the MLP (but it would have to be small or else hidden. If I can't do that - I guess I would consider some buttkickers (if the nulls were in the higher of the lower frequencies). haha.



Quick other question regarding the LV12R. I notice it has Frequency Response that's generally flat down to 19Hz. Is this meant to show its capabilities in ideal conditions? I.e. is this the "gold standard" I should be trying to replicate in my own room?





I think you'd find the thread "Nearfield Ported MBM's for Increased Tactile Response" very interesting reading.


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Old 07-21-2016, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Here is the song I play first every time I finish to calibrate ANY sound system. If this song sounds good, then any song will sound perfect!!!

Fourplay - Bali Run
Just played this in HIFI from Tidal airplaying through my Apple TV and it was hard for me to believe sound wasn't coming out of my center channel until I walked up to it. Guess that means at least the mains EQ and phase is correct? This song is awesome by the way besides sounding great!
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My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
Plasma 50" TV: Samsung PN50C8000 — DLP Projector: Optoma GT1080
Projector Screen: Elite VMAX2 Electric — Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44 — Fronts: B&W 684 S1
Center: B&W CM Center S2 — Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rythmik FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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Old 07-21-2016, 09:53 PM
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Red is my original spot I had the sub.

Green is where the sub is now. A lot different haha.
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Old 07-21-2016, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
This brings up a question I've had for a while. My mains are capable to play frequencies down to 34Hz. My Surrounds are rated down to 42Hz, and my center is rated down to 48Hz. The front heights I have, however, are rated down to 80Hz. Unfortunately my AVR only lets me set a global crossover that is applied to all speakers set to SMALL (which all of mine are). I've set the crossover to 80Hz (well MCACC actually did). I've read conflicting advise saying that its good to set a higher crossover, even with speakers competent below your settings, so that the lower frequencies are handled by your Sub and therefore your other speakers only play the higher frequencies - which results in a less muddied sound.

Alternatively, like you are saying, setting the crossover lower, allows your mains and other speakers with somewhat low frequency playback capabilities to enhance the bass experience as it will be coming from not just the Sub, but the woofers on the speakers as well.

So my question is this. Should I set my crossover as it is at 80Hz (since the front heights can't go lower, or else I would have asked if i should set it at 50Hz), or should I raise it up to 100Hz or even 150Hz and let the LV12R take care of anything under that so my mains, center, surrounds, and heights can focus on the higher frequencies for a clearer sound? I kind of feel like I'm wasting the point of having tower speakers with woofers in them if I do that though.
This was covered in extensive detail in the ATMOS thread. One of the reasons I wanted ATMOS was to make use of surrounds and rears that have the extension down to 49Hz so I was planning on setting for either 50Hz or a 60Hz crossover. The experts on that thread said... don't bother. Keep everything set to an 80Hz crossover. Seems a shame when you have a sub capable of reaching below 20Hz to also have it "leading the charge" all the way up to 80Hz when I have perfectly acceptable B&W fronts, surrounds, rears and even heights all fully capable of extensions into the 30s & 40s not to pick a lower setting. The ability for me to "play with" those different ranges is part of why I placed an order for the Rythmik CI components earlier today.
The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)

Epson 5040ub Projector, Elite Screens 120" Saker AUHD, Yamaha RX-A3060, B&W Speakers: Signature 7's, FMP4, CWM7.5s, CCM65s, Rythmik 15" CI Sub, 30' Monoprice Cabernet Ultra CL2, Tiara CI-Pro Series In-wall wiring, Phillips BDP7501 UHD BD Player, Niles 1230 WHA Amp, Xbox, WiiU, TiVo Premiere
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Old 07-21-2016, 11:20 PM
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Replacing (2) Epik Empires

My living room is open to the rest of the house so I am looking at 12,000 CF. I am looking to replace (2) Epik Empires and I listen to 80% HT & 20% Music. I really like the sound of the Epik Empire's dual opposed 15" subs.

Should I go with dual FV15HP or dual F25?
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Old 07-22-2016, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kb4all View Post
My living room is open to the rest of the house so I am looking at 12,000 CF. I am looking to replace (2) Epik Empires and I listen to 80% HT & 20% Music. I really like the sound of the Epik Empire's dual opposed 15" subs.

Should I go with dual FV15HP or dual F25?
Ported subs would work better in your room. Between dual FV15HP or dual F25, 2 FV15HPs for sure. Though many here might strongly advise you to consider dual FV25HP , and if you do decide to get them, we don't really blame you.
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Last edited by chucky7; 07-22-2016 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 07-22-2016, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theriddler07sms View Post
Red is my original spot I had the sub.

Green is where the sub is now. A lot different haha.
Wow, huge difference in the before and after! Everything I read says there is a lot of bass in the 45-80hz range for movies and music, it looks like that is exactly what was missing before REW (pretty big null between 45-80hz). That explains much of the lack of bass/punch/feel you experienced when first set up the sub. Glad to hear you are enjoying it now! Make me wonder if I should go down that rabbit hole....

Receiver - Yamaha
Sub - Rythmik FVX-15
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f12g subwoofer , lv12r , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub
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