Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 822 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #24631 of 24646 Old Today, 09:13 AM
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I recently purchased and began using an LV12R. I have a pretty large room and i have to set the sub at around 3 o'clock on the volume knob to get it to -6db through Pioneers MCACC EQ. Then I boost it up between -3 and 0. But it outputs plenty of bass for my likings. As soon as my UMIK-1 mic comes today, I'll be putting it through REW.

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post #24632 of 24646 Old Today, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Why do you turn Audyssey off? Don't like how it sounds? Depends on what master volume level you were listening at, turning DynEQ off might suck the life out of the bass and you do that with Audyssey off which also reduces bass IME. Try with Audyssey and DynEq on. Once calibrated, you don't want to touch the Rythmik volume knob but only increase the sub trim via your Denon audio menu if you want more bass. What level did Audyssey set your LFE at?
The reason that your Polk seems to be louder is that it has higher distortion.

I have tried both DynEQ on and off. What would you suggest I keep the volume knob at by default before increasing the trim? Audyssey LFE was -12 (bottom), which seems to be a big part of the issue. I couldnt find where to change that at. I only found a place to setup speakers manually. Im still learning this receiver a bit, so I may be overlooking some obvious settings to some.
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post #24633 of 24646 Old Today, 09:19 AM
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Before you dig into the sub tuning, you might want to flip the phase 180 degrees as that could be the ONLY issue here if your cheaper sub sounds more viseral.
Ok, Ill try that when I get home. I just feel there is something simple Im missing.

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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I recently purchased and began using an LV12R. I have a pretty large room and i have to set the sub at around 3 o'clock on the volume knob to get it to -6db through Pioneers MCACC EQ. Then I boost it up between -3 and 0. But it outputs plenty of bass for my likings. As soon as my UMIK-1 mic comes today, I'll be putting it through REW.
What size room do you have? Ill play around with the settings and suggestions Im getting tonight and Ill update the thread. Im thinking about running Audyssey once more, because I just read an article on Denon's site that said you have to turn the subwoofer to "yes" before running Audyssey because the receiver doesnt automatically detect the sub is present.
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post #24634 of 24646 Old Today, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by thinksmartpc View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Do you have REW and a calibrated usb mic? Or is there an AVS user who lives nearby who could help you with that?

One new Rythmik F12 owner just went through a similar issue and after proper placement and setup/calibration, he went from wanting to return it to hugely impressed by it.

By the way, I have the LV12R and a 12' by 12' by 8' room too and I'm getting very satisfying results, so in time you should be able to as well.

I'd say placement and sub EQ are critical otherwise you may end up with huge peaks and nulls/dips in a square room.

My sub is on the left wall, midwall and MLP is about 8-9ft to the right of it, about 3-4ft from the right midwall.

I dont. Do you mind telling me the settings you are using even though your AVR might be different? Im going to play with placement some more this weekend. I have tried the left and right side of my front stage at about 4 feet from either side and around 18 inches from the back wall. Im going to try it on the right and left side as well. I may end up doing the old crawl around test as well. I know the potential of this sub, because during the train scene in Super 8 it almost brought the house down with deep and accurate bass. I just have to find that again.
Try the sub crawl, but also make sure the sub is in phase with the LCRs and make sure to add 3dB to 6dB to the sub trim in AVR post Audyssey. And leave Audyssey and Dynamic EQ on.

Setting all speakers to small and 80Hz crossover is a good starting point too.

If you are willing to, spending $100 on a UMIK-1 calibrated usb mic and downloading the free REW software will help you maximize performance from your entire system, including the sub.

And if Audyssey isn't doing the best sub EQ in your case (you can check this via REW after optimizing placement), then getting a MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced or HD will let you EQ the sub with a great deal of control and flexibility).

My Yamaha AVR doesn't do any sub EQ, so I use REW+MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced+UMIK-1 and get a very flat frequency response from 19Hz to 100Hz with the sub connected via Line In.

On the sub, I set bass extension to low and crossover to 80Hz and LPF slope to 24dB (the latter 2 items are just personal preference and specific to my room's acoustics/placement/setup... YMMV).

In my case, I have to set phase/delay to 180 degrees/10ms, since my YPAO doesn't compensate for my sub being out of phase with the LCRs.

Though I would recommend the following settings on the sub in most cases:

Bass Extension: Low
Crossover: 120Hz
LPF Slope: 12dB
Phase/Delay: 0 degrees/0ms
Volume/Gain: 12 o'clock or higher so that Audyssey puts it -6dB to -10dB

After running Audyssey, you can change bass extension to mid or high if desired, particularly for music and you can switch LPF slope to 24dB if desired.

(This is all with the Line In input(s), but you can use LFE input if you don't need the phase/delay, crossover, or LPF slope controls.)
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post #24635 of 24646 Old Today, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by thinksmartpc View Post
Audyssey LFE was -12 (bottom), which seems to be a big part of the issue. I couldnt find where to change that at.
-12dB is Audyseey's way of saying the gain (volume) on the subwoofer is too high and it can't get an accurate reading. Give the dial a sizable turn counter clockwise and run it again. Keep doing that until the setting is no higher than -10dB, but around -5dB is better.

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post #24636 of 24646 Old Today, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Try the sub crawl, but also make sure the sub is in phase with the LCRs and make sure to add 3dB to 6dB to the sub trim in AVR post Audyssey. And leave Audyssey and Dynamic EQ on.

Setting all speakers to small and 80Hz crossover is a good starting point too.

If you are willing to, spending $100 on a UMIK-1 calibrated usb mic and downloading the free REW software will help you maximize performance from your entire system, including the sub.

And if Audyssey isn't doing the best sub EQ in your case (you can check this via REW after optimizing placement), then getting a MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced or HD will let you EQ the sub with a great deal of control and flexibility).

My Yamaha AVR doesn't do any sub EQ, so I use REW+MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced+UMIK-1 and get a very flat frequency response from 19Hz to 100Hz with the sub connected via Line In.

On the sub, I set bass extension to low and crossover to 80Hz and LPF slope to 24dB (the latter 2 items are just personal preference and specific to my room's acoustics/placement/setup... YMMV).

In my case, I have to set phase/delay to 180 degrees/10ms, since my YPAO doesn't compensate for my sub being out of phase with the LCRs.

Though I would recommend the following settings on the sub in most cases:

Bass Extension: Low
Crossover: 120Hz
LPF Slope: 12dB
Phase/Delay: 0 degrees/0ms
Volume/Gain: 12 o'clock or higher so that Audyssey puts it -6dB to -10dB

After running Audyssey, you can change bass extension to mid or high if desired, particularly for music and you can switch LPF slope to 24dB if desired.

(This is all with the Line In input(s), but you can use LFE input if you don't need the phase/delay, crossover, or LPF slope controls.)

Thanks for all the great info. Im going to run Audyssey first and see what level I get again. I found out through Denon that their recevier's dont automatically set the sub to "yes" before running Audyssey even if one is present. Im still learning this receiver. I have only had it for a few weeks. Summer is in full swing still around here, so time has been limited. I am going to put some time in tonight with yours and the other suggestions. Ill update as soon as I have some information. I truly appreciate it.
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post #24637 of 24646 Old Today, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I recently purchased and began using an LV12R. I have a pretty large room and i have to set the sub at around 3 o'clock on the volume knob to get it to -6db through Pioneers MCACC EQ. Then I boost it up between -3 and 0. But it outputs plenty of bass for my likings. As soon as my UMIK-1 mic comes today, I'll be putting it through REW.
I'm interested in seeing how your current setup measures. You'll also be able to do compression sweeps like I did yesterday to see what max clean SPL at 20Hz your sub in your room can do. Just remember that the LFE channel measures in REW don't include the 3-5dB that bass management adds.

It does include running the sub hot, however, and a full range CC+sub measurement can show you exactly how hot your sub is running relative to the midrange (500Hz to 2kHz region).
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post #24638 of 24646 Old Today, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by thinksmartpc View Post
What size room do you have? Ill play around with the settings and suggestions Im getting tonight and Ill update the thread. Im thinking about running Audyssey once more, because I just read an article on Denon's site that said you have to turn the subwoofer to "yes" before running Audyssey because the receiver doesnt automatically detect the sub is present.
The room is open to my living room and dining room so its actually VERY large. I haven't measured but I would eyeball it at 25' wide x 30'+ long - not including the open dining room - pics at the link in my sig. But the sub puts out nice bass to the point where I can feel punchy scenes like in dark knight, and definitely shakes the whole first floor (which again is open).

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post #24639 of 24646 Old Today, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by thinksmartpc View Post
I did try it with Audyssey and DynEq ON and OFF. Off is definitely terrible for good reason, but I wanted to make sure I covered all my bases. The Audyssey set it to -12 which is the lowest and quite possibly the issue. When I manually change it to -6 instead of -12, Audyssey still shows it at -12. I cant seem to change the Audyssey setting unless I do another setup. This Denon is new to me, so I could be missing something.

Audyssey set my crossovers, I thought at little high, at 100hz. I did change them manually, but as I explained above about the sub. I cant find where to change the Audyssey settings manually or if that's possible without running Audyssey again.

The sub is place on the left side of my front stage about 4 feet from the left wall and 18 inches from the back wall. I have tried the right side as well.

The bass seems to be lacking on both sides, but Im convinced it's a calibration issue at this point.
You change the speaker trims under SPEAKERS>MANUAL>LEVELS and crossovers under SPEAKERS>MANUAL>CROSSOVERS.

As others have pointed out, -12dB is the lower limit and you need to re-run Audyssey until you get "in range". Here is my quick and dirty single sub set up procedure with Audyssey:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Set the gain on the sub to around 12:00-2:00 (just a starting point, gain structure can vary greatly from one manufacturer to another). Set phase to "0".

1. Connect sub and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best location
3. Place sub in that location
4. Run Audyssey, first mic position only and "calculate"
5. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -6dB to -8dB ideally
6. Adjust the gain on the sub up or down as needed
7. Repeat 4-6 until you get the sub trim around -6dB to -8dB
8. Run the full Audyssey calibration
9. Set all speakers to "small"
10. Set all speaker crossovers to 80hz (or, if set higher than 80hz by Audyssey, leave them alone)
11. Bump up the sub trim by 3db to 6db to your preference
12. Enjoy!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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Originally Posted by thinksmartpc View Post
I have tried both DynEQ on and off. What would you suggest I keep the volume knob at by default before increasing the trim? Audyssey LFE was -12 (bottom), which seems to be a big part of the issue. I couldnt find where to change that at. I only found a place to setup speakers manually. Im still learning this receiver a bit, so I may be overlooking some obvious settings to some.
The volume knob needs to be wherever you end up after my set up procedure outlined above.

You would benefit greatly by thoroughly reading the Audyssey 101 and FAQ linked in my sig.

EDIT: Oh, and never lower a crossover set by Audyssey, this is covered in the FAQ.
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post #24640 of 24646 Old Today, 10:48 AM
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You change the speaker trims under SPEAKERS>MANUAL>LEVELS and crossovers under SPEAKERS>MANUAL>CROSSOVERS.

As others have pointed out, -12dB is the lower limit and you need to re-run Audyssey until you get "in range". Here is my quick and dirty single sub set up procedure with Audyssey:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Set the gain on the sub to around 12:00-2:00 (just a starting point, gain structure can vary greatly from one manufacturer to another). Set phase to "0".

1. Connect sub and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best location
3. Place sub in that location
4. Run Audyssey, first mic position only and "calculate"
5. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -6dB to -8dB ideally
6. Adjust the gain on the sub up or down as needed
7. Repeat 4-6 until you get the sub trim around -6dB to -8dB
8. Run the full Audyssey calibration
9. Set all speakers to "small"
10. Set all speaker crossovers to 80hz (or, if set higher than 80hz by Audyssey, leave them alone)
11. Bump up the sub trim by 3db to 6db to your preference
12. Enjoy!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



The volume knob needs to be wherever you end up after my set up procedure outlined above.

You would benefit greatly by thoroughly reading the Audyssey 101 and FAQ linked in my sig.

EDIT: Oh, and never lower a crossover set by Audyssey, this is covered in the FAQ.

Thanks for all the info. Im going to carve out some time tonight to set things up. Ill update everyone on what I find out.
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post #24641 of 24646 Old Today, 12:24 PM
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So I have the sub at +6db from what MCACC set it to, and I was listening probably a bit under reference. Is that not reasonable? Also the more I've read about this this morning, the more I see its rare and only present in a handful of movies. Have you watched Edge of Tomorrow with your normal settings? No issues?


First thing I would do is adjust your avr so that your MV displays in terms of reference level rather than a random number.

Now lets consider things as though you were listening at reference level. Reference level requires the sub to produce peak output of up to 115 dB. You are calibrated 6 dB hot, so now you are asking your sub to playback up to 121 dB. Now add in bass redirected from other channels on top of that.....potentially another 5 dB. What do you think your entry level $500 ported sub is going to do when you ask it to reproduce low frequency effects in excess of 120 dB? Hint: Rythmiks highest output sub, the FV15HP, is good for about 107 dB at 20 Hz.


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post #24642 of 24646 Old Today, 12:28 PM
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First thing I would do is adjust your avr so that your MV displays in terms of reference level rather than a random number.

Now lets consider things as though you were listening at reference level. Reference level requires the sub to produce peak output of up to 115 dB. You are calibrated 6 dB hot, so now you are asking your sub to playback up to 121 dB. Now add in bass redirected from other channels on top of that.....potentially another 5 dB. What do you think your entry level $500 ported sub is going to do when you ask it to reproduce low frequency effects in excess of 120 dB? Hint: Rythmiks highest output sub, the FV15HP, is good for about 107 dB at 20 Hz.


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As much as I would love to, I cannot make the AVR show relative volume so that I can get a reference level. I spent hours searching for how to do this only to find my ELITE (yeah right) VSX-44 can only display volume from 0-80.

So yeah - i didn't know that movie had that part or I would have turned it down ahead of time. It handles most things fine running between 3-6db hot. My point is that its a bit scary a random part of a movie, unbeknownst to me, could do that to my speakers.
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post #24643 of 24646 Old Today, 12:36 PM
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As much as I would love to, I cannot make the AVR show relative volume so that I can get a reference level. I spent hours searching for how to do this only to find my ELITE (yeah right) VSX-44 can only display volume from 0-80
You could always attempt to "old school" it to find the reference level. Determine what your speakers are rated for (e.g. 88dB @ 1 meter). Pick up a cheap SPL meter from radio shack (or whatever is around these days). Set it 1 meter away with a reference tone playing and watch the measurements. When you see that 88dB, you have found the reference level on your AVR.

Experts here can correct me if I am mis-stating this

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post #24644 of 24646 Old Today, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
You could always attempt to "old school" it to find the reference level. Determine what your speakers are rated for (e.g. 88dB @ 1 meter). Pick up a cheap SPL meter from radio shack (or whatever is around these days). Set it 1 meter away with a reference tone playing and watch the measurements. When you see that 88dB, you have found the reference level on your AVR.

Experts here can correct me if I am mis-stating this
Or, just find a -20dBfs test tone (Disney WOW disc is a good one) and play it through the system. When you see 85dB on the SPL meter (at the MLP), you're at Reference.

Of course, citsur86 now has REW so it's even easier. Just output -23dBfs pink noise (speaker cal) to CH3 (CC+subs), when the REW SPL meter registers 85dB, that MV level is Reference.
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post #24645 of 24646 Old Today, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
You could always attempt to "old school" it to find the reference level. Determine what your speakers are rated for (e.g. 88dB @ 1 meter). Pick up a cheap SPL meter from radio shack (or whatever is around these days). Set it 1 meter away with a reference tone playing and watch the measurements. When you see that 88dB, you have found the reference level on your AVR.

Experts here can correct me if I am mis-stating this
Much simpler than that. Reference level on the master volume control will be the level at which a reference tone playing through a single speaker shows 75 dB at the listening position. You would have to find a source for this reference level signal. And to be strictly accurate, you'd probably want to disable bass management for this test too.

REW has tones (such as pink noise), and I believe you can set the output level to match reference, though I'm not sure. Wherever you get the signal, turn it on and make sure only one speaker is playing. Since you have REW, you can use it to measure SPL, with the mic placed at the listening position. With the signal playing and REW measuring SPL, adjust the master volume control until you read 75 dB. That will be reference. Then check that all other speakers are at the same level (which MCACC should have done for you already).

After having done all this, and determined, for example, that reference level is 60, you still don't know how many dB below reference level you are if you set the volume to 55. But you could certainly determine this by measuring SPL with the volume at 55 to see how many dB below 75 dB you measure.

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Or, just find a -20dBfs test tone (Disney WOW disc is a good one) and play it through the system. When you see 85dB on the SPL meter (at the MLP), you're at Reference.
Okay, maybe it's 85 dB with a reference level tone . . .

Quote:
Of course, citsur86 now has REW so it's even easier. Just output -23dBfs pink noise (speaker cal) to CH3 (CC+subs), when the REW SPL meter registers 85dB, that MV level is Reference.
Did you mean -20 dBfs pink noise?

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