Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 833 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #24961 of 30527 Old 08-09-2016, 07:11 PM
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I've read under 20hz you don't hear it, however you begin to feel it. Very few movies dip under 8hz
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post #24962 of 30527 Old 08-09-2016, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Theriddler07sms View Post
I've read under 20hz you don't hear it, however you begin to feel it. Very few movies dip under 8hz
Others are welcome to correct me but the MAJORITY of what you "feel" comes from the 20-60Hz range, not from the in-audible ranges. While it is true that you can feel the sub-20Hz range audio but don't expect that it will have as much PUNCH as the dB levels also drop as the frequencies drop.

If you get 103dB @ 30Hz you WILL feel it. For the same amp that same signal @ 15Hz will be at a much lower output (maybe something like 80dB which means that you won't feel it nearly as much as the higher volume 30Hz signal. THAT is the reason that you see people on here buying larger and larger drivers with more and more power. In order to get 103dB @ a 15Hz signal you may have to spend twice as much as your prior budget. I believe that it is a game of dimenishing returns on your investment. What you have to do is to figure out what is "good enough" for you.

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post #24963 of 30527 Old 08-09-2016, 08:23 PM
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I've read under 20hz you don't hear it, however you begin to feel it. Very few movies dip under 8hz
No.
If that were the case you wouldnt feel anything with music because theres virtually nothing below 20 (almost nothing below 30).
More like 30-70.
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post #24964 of 30527 Old 08-09-2016, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
Others are welcome to correct me but the MAJORITY of what you "feel" comes from the 20-60Hz range, not from the in-audible ranges. While it is true that you can feel the sub-20Hz range audio but don't expect that it will have as much PUNCH as the dB levels also drop as the frequencies drop.
That depends upon what your definition of "feel" is. Realistically, most of the adjectives used to describe that particular sensation are subjective in nature.

The 30-60Hz range is frequently associated to that 'punched in the chest' feeling, while the output below 20Hz is primarily felt in the seat of your pants (literally). Each provides a tactile sensation, but there is an unmistakable difference in how you experience them.

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post #24965 of 30527 Old 08-09-2016, 08:41 PM
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Very deep bass is something you notice more for its absence when it is removed than its presence when it's there. Sounds contradictory, pun intended, but it's true for me.

High distortion can make a sub sound "richer" or "fuller" because their harmonics (distortions) are higher in frequency and thus much easier to hear. The sub may sound louder but it's distortion, not the source. Servo control helps reduce distortion, and also helps smooth the frequency response by controlling the response during impedance excursions.

One of the things servo control offers, and the main reason I have owned servo subs from my own design 30+ years ago to my quartet of Rythmiks today, is keeping the drivers from ringing in the time domain. This ringing can add non-harmonic overtones (displeasing distortion) and fills the "silence" after the note, making drums and percussive sounds linger instead of falling off (decaying) properly. An extreme example would be when a tom or taught kick drum gets turned into a flapping kettle drum (tympani), and a snare strike into a tom or kick drum. sharply plucked or picked strings or guitars get a more "legato" sound, like going from steel to nylon strings (and nylon to old-time cloth). I often find these sorts of things actually more objectionable than simple harmonic distortion. And again the lack of them (ringing and decay artifacts) is very noticeable, like a low hum in the room that has you sighing in relief when it's gone even though you thought you had "tuned it out".

The difference between a bad and a good sub is fairly obvious to most listeners; it often takes a little time to learn the difference between a good sub and a great sub. And you won't want to go back to "good" after you have experienced "great".

IMO - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #24966 of 30527 Old 08-09-2016, 10:53 PM
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The output below 20Hz is primarily felt in the seat of your pants (literally).
^^ This. Output from the F12 didn't seem to be enough for you but moving up to a well designed 15" or bigger sealed or ported will provide you with plenty of headroom especially the sub is sitting directly behind you in your case. Rythmik 15" has both of the high output and much lower extension (you already seen that with the small F12) than the competitors along with the great direct servo sound quality making it a better and a more expensive choice. You get what you pay for. You might like what other company offering but until you can compare, you really don't know what you are missing. For the folks that compared Rythmik subs with other similar price range ID company, they kept the Rythmik.

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I've read under 20hz you don't hear it, however you begin to feel it. Very few movies dip under 8hz
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post #24967 of 30527 Old 08-09-2016, 11:59 PM
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I agree.the rythmik f12 sounded fantastic. Just wasn't enough. Rythmik isn't off my list just yet. Their fvx15 and fv15hp are still up there on my list.

Now that psa doesn't offer return shipping it's kind of a wash either way. The v1500 directly compares to the fv15hp. If I would bump up to a v1800 the 15hp falls behind, but not by much (price being fairly similar)

Now, I'm still interested in their upcoming f25ho and f18hp. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it haha.
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post #24968 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Theriddler07sms View Post
I agree.the rythmik f12 sounded fantastic. Just wasn't enough. Rythmik isn't off my list just yet. Their fvx15 and fv15hp are still up there on my list.

Now that psa doesn't offer return shipping it's kind of a wash either way. The v1500 directly compares to the fv15hp. If I would bump up to a v1800 the 15hp falls behind, but not by much (price being fairly similar)

Now, I'm still interested in their upcoming f25ho and f18hp. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it haha.
I do remember in your F12 setup thread, one user (bear, I think) said that even if -25MV is the loudest you currently listen, buying a sub that wouldn't allow much higher listening levels would be a bit shortsighted. Since -25MV isn't that loud to most here.

While not applicable in all cases, it sure does seem to in your case, as you were about to become a basshead and just didn't know it as your prior subs weren't on par with the Rythmik and weren't as rewarding to hear/feel at higher levels of SPL.

Now you're in a whole new world of bass, with ported 18s and ported dual 15s... funny how quickly things changed for you.

I think this is where those of us who advised you to get as much sub as you could afford and fit in your room from the start were coming from... as people are more likely to want more over time than less.

For example, my first proper HDTV was a mere 32 inches, though still over $750 at the time. I then went through many upgrades, ultimately settling around 46-50 inches. I would still like a bigger screen and more high end PQ, but my room doesn't have space for a 55" or 60" or bigger. Of course, when I first got even the 32, it seemed too big for my small room and the 50 looked like way overkill. But now if I have any regrets is that I can't realistically go bigger.

With my Rythmik LV12R, I do feel it is more than good enough for me, especially with SQ. There are times I wish I had even more sub, but I really never push out more than 90-95dB out of my sub during movies, which are at -30MV in general so aside from a few more Hz of low end extension or separate frequency and damping extension filter controls, I don't feel like I'm missing much... and those things are only even on my mind because I know they exist... never knew of such stuff before buying the LV12R.

So, I don't think you can have too much sub if you're a basshead and most of us here are on some level. We try to find movies that showcase the subs and having satisfying bass is an important part of the movie. In fact, if we didn't care about bass, we wouldn't be in the sub forum on AVS.

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post #24969 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 01:09 PM
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The v1500 directly compares to the fv15hp.
Now, I'm still interested in their upcoming f25ho and f18hp. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it haha.
The Fv15hp is a superior sub compare to the v1500. It also costs more. The FV15hp bests the PSA XV30 which uses two 15" drivers and a more powerful amp. Just because one sub has more drivers or has an 18" driver does not make it a better sub. Per Enrico, look like the new fv18 and fv25 won't be available till Oct/Nov but I am sure it will be worth the wait. With Rythmik, you have the owner/designer who has a PHD in electrical engineer (enough said).
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post #24970 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 02:01 PM
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The FV25HP is +9dB more than FV15HP below 20Hz. So we are talking about 108dB @ 12.5Hz. That's pretty insane for a dual 15" subwoofer. Also remember that the FV15HP still is the only single 15" subwoofer in today's market with more than 96dB @ 12.5Hz.
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post #24971 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 02:14 PM
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The FV25HP is +9dB more than FV15HP below 20Hz. So we are talking about 108dB @ 12.5Hz. That's pretty insane for a dual 15" subwoofer. Also remember that the FV15HP still is the only single 15" subwoofer in today's market with more than 96dB @ 12.5Hz.


Have the prices for the new subwoofers been released?
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post #24972 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 02:43 PM
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Oo yeah, any preorder pricing deals or initial group buys?

The f25hp might be worth the couple month wait. Plus, by the time it comes around I'll be begging for another sub haha
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post #24973 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
The FV25HP is +9dB more than FV15HP below 20Hz. So we are talking about 108dB @ 12.5Hz. That's pretty insane for a dual 15" subwoofer. Also remember that the FV15HP still is the only single 15" subwoofer in today's market with more than 96dB @ 12.5Hz.
These look like world beaters. Will the Silver be an option? I'm really interested to see the price. I'm not in the market but I can dream!
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post #24974 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 03:55 PM
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These look like world beaters. Will the Silver be an option? I'm really interested to see the price. I'm not in the market but I can dream!


I'm preparing a plan to make myself in the market haha
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post #24975 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
The FV25HP is +9dB more than FV15HP below 20Hz. So we are talking about 108dB @ 12.5Hz. That's pretty insane for a dual 15" subwoofer. Also remember that the FV15HP still is the only single 15" subwoofer in today's market with more than 96dB @ 12.5Hz.
Impressive, that means if one was to take 2 FV15HPs and stack them, they still wouldn't get that much output.

So are the drivers and amp more capable because of this?
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post #24976 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 04:23 PM
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I'm preparing a plan to make myself in the market haha
I doubt I was ever in the market, depending on price I have a couple months to get into said market haha.
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post #24977 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
The FV25HP is +9dB more than FV15HP below 20Hz. So we are talking about 108dB @ 12.5Hz. That's pretty insane for a dual 15" subwoofer. Also remember that the FV15HP still is the only single 15" subwoofer in today's market with more than 96dB @ 12.5Hz.
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Impressive, that means if one was to take 2 FV15HPs and stack them, they still wouldn't get that much output.
Talking about serious butt kicker, pant flapper and full body massage plus I am sure it has at least 3db over the FV15 north of 20hz make it also providing bass in the chess feeling area. I am guessing it probably will be priced at $1899? 2 DS1520 drivers and 2kW of servo drive power, I am drooling...
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post #24978 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 04:48 PM
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With Rythmik, you have the owner/designer who has a PHD in electrical engineer (enough said).
By that logic, HSU and RYTHMIK are bar none the best because of PHDs? I don't buy that. Enrico has an engineering degree. I have degrees in Electrical Engineering and Applied Mathematics. Do I know more about subs than Mark Seaton or Tom Vodhanel? Of course not! The main ID subwoofer vendors all have a seat at the table (Reaction Audio notwithstanding) and don't always directly compete. There is no single vendor that is the best choice for every customer.

  • RYTHMIK's accuracy is legendary. They have offered midsize subs from 12" and under $600 while many others have ignored this segment. They are THE subs for music, without sacrificing movie performance. With the new FV18 and FV25 on the way, they are expanding into the higher end for home theater.
  • HSU is the old mainstay. Along with SVS, they defined the ID subwoofer segment. The make subs as small as 10" for $359 all the way up to dual 15 vented w/premium veneer for $2049. They offer it all, including speakers.
  • SVS has gone corporate, Best Buy/Magnolia reselling their subs. They are still selling subs Tom V designed years ago, building them in China and passing the margins on to the customers. Ultra subs are still very relevant and great looking. They alone now have free trials with free shipping both ways. They also sell affordable speakers. Their service & support is still top notch.

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  • IMO, PSA matches if not exceeds SVS for warranty, service, and support (not to sell anyone else short). Possibly the best price/performance ratio (debateable), outside of Reaction Audio's dying brand. Focused on making big, bad home theater subs with 15" and 18" drivers. $899 - $2999. High quality speakers at mid-fi prices.
  • Seaton Sound, higher end Subs and Speakers than most. Seaton Submersives are legendary for SQ. I would love to see a blind shootout/compare between the Submersive and RYTHMIK F25. Mark Seaton also does custom work that is just stoopid, ridiculous, good!
  • JTR Speakers. High end speakers and subs for pros and consumers. Smallest subs have 18" drivers. For customers with deeper pockets than me.

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  • Funk Audio. If you can dream it, {and have the $$$} he can build it. Perhaps the most beautiful sub and speaker cabinets on earth.
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post #24979 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 05:12 PM
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^^ from what I heard, Jim Farina is the main designer, Tom V is more of a business/marketing guy. I see what you were saying but having Brian building subs with a PhD degree is an advantage. He designs the drivers, the amps and the boxes. Other companies order drivers and amps from a third party vendors and tweak them. Not saying they are bad, just want to emphasize my point about Brian having a PhD in electrical engineer. I have a BSEE degree and that was all I could handle.
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post #24980 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 06:24 PM
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^^^I believe Tom is involved in many if not all aspects of PSA, but is the principal marketer/salesperson. Both Tom and Jim served as chief of R&D at SVS at one time.

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Hello Everyone,

I wanted to chime in and provide a little background info for those interested.

I started at SVS in 2001 as an assembler while working my way through college. In 2003 I received a Bachelor of Science in Applied Science degree, with a major in Electrical Engineering Technology. This was about the same time I was promoted from assembler to R/D. My main responsibilities were system design and analysis. I took over as head of R/D in late 2007 when Tom left, and held that position until I resigned in March of 2008.

Oh, and I never worked for Toyota.
Well, it seems he wasn't chief for long before following Tom out of the door.

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post #24981 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 06:32 PM
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Talking about serious butt kicker, pant flapper and full body massage plus I am sure it has at least 3db over the FV15 north of 20hz make it also providing bass in the chess feeling area. I am guessing it probably will be priced at $1899? 2 DS1520 drivers and 2kW of servo drive power, I am drooling...
$1899? If that includes shipping I may have to make room for one!

I don't think a price that low is possible. I'm going to guess $2199.

Anyone know the dimensions of the FV18 and FV25 to be?
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post #24982 of 30527 Old 08-10-2016, 06:54 PM
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$1899 is definitely in the wheel house. I don't expect they would include shipping at that price, but maybe for their pre orders or introductory deals ;-)
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post #24983 of 30527 Old 08-11-2016, 10:28 AM
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Brian's PhD is in EE but not in subwoofer design... I have a couple of BS degrees and a MS EE degree but only have a couple of grad courses in acoustics... Dr. Amar Bose had a PhD...

Brian and I have similar backgrounds and day jobs so it was neat talking with him. Don't think his PhD ever came up, nor was it ever something I really thought about when deciding which subs to buy. I have worked with a number of non-degreed folk who match and surpass a lot of EEs. That said, there are plenty of speaker designers who have essentially zero technical expertise and just slap things together in a cabinet and call it done. Brian's PhD is impressive and indicates a high level of competence, but his subs speak for themselves, as they should. Ditto Mark Seaton's, Dr. Hsu's, and all the rest, And same for those subs who have, um, less pedigree in designer's credentials and suub performance. While the piece of paper helps, a designer's credibility is in the performance of his products. We are very lucky to have so many great subs to choose from; wasn't like that twenty or thirty years ago.

IMO - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #24984 of 30527 Old 08-11-2016, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
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Brian's PhD is in EE but not in subwoofer design... I have a couple of BS degrees and a MS EE degree but only have a couple of grad courses in acoustics... Dr. Amar Bose had a PhD...

Brian and I have similar backgrounds and day jobs so it was neat talking with him. Don't think his PhD ever came up, nor was it ever something I really thought about when deciding which subs to buy. I have worked with a number of non-degreed folk who match and surpass a lot of EEs. That said, there are plenty of speaker designers who have essentially zero technical expertise and just slap things together in a cabinet and call it done. Brian's PhD is impressive and indicates a high level of competence, but his subs speak for themselves, as they should. Ditto Mark Seaton's, Dr. Hsu's, and all the rest, And same for those subs who have, um, less pedigree in designer's credentials and suub performance. While the piece of paper helps, a designer's credibility is in the performance of his products. We are very lucky to have so many great subs to choose from; wasn't like that twenty or thirty years ago.

IMO - Don
+1, I agree... Brian's subs are remarkably consistent in terms of SQ and value and the biggest difference between model 'A' and model 'B' is extension, output, and sometimes premium amp features/aluminum drivers.

Even sealed vs. ported is as similar as can be... if you look at competitors like SVS, their sealed vs. ported offerings carry more of the typical differences between the two... like PB-2000 vs. SB-2000.

Direct servo provides a more level playing field than non servo subs generally can as does his unique approach to sub design.

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post #24985 of 30527 Old 08-11-2016, 07:09 PM
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Although relatively new to the market, Deep Sea Sound deserves a mention in ID subs. They offer a 24" sealed sub with a 4K amp for under $4,000. They also have lower priced 18's with prodigious output. I don't know of any sub as powerful as the Mariana 24 at any price.


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post #24986 of 30527 Old 08-11-2016, 07:27 PM
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Although relatively new to the market, Deep Sea Sound deserves a mention in ID subs. They offer a 24" sealed sub with a 4K amp for under $4,000. They also have lower priced 18's with prodigious output. I don't know of any sub as powerful as the Mariana 24 at any price.


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Sorry about that. I don't know much about them. 24" driver is simply insane!
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post #24987 of 30527 Old 08-11-2016, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I don't know of any sub as powerful as the Mariana 24 at any price.
You might not, but others perhaps do.

I've had quite a few exchanges with David Gage in the past year or two, and I'd be willing to bet he would be uncomfortable with a statement such as this. The man is a class act all the way, and doesn't believe in any "mine is bigger than yours" bravado, so he's the last person to engage in this type of hyperbole. The Mariana 24 is quite the sub - and I'm certain current owners would corroborate that - but it's not unrivaled for the price.
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post #24988 of 30527 Old 08-11-2016, 08:19 PM
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Sorry about that. I don't know much about them. 24" driver is simply insane!
A sub with a 24" driver is nothing new. Older guys may remember the Hartley sub from way back in the 60's, which had a 24" woofer featuring a very low-mass paper cone. It was considered State-of-the-Art at the time by perfectionist audiophiles (including Stereophile founder J. Gordon Holt), being the sub of choice for the then best speakers in the world (Quad and KLH electrostatics). Mark Levinson also used it in his 1970's super-speaker, The Levinson HQD (Hartley Quad Decca, the speaker's woofer, midrange, and tweeter). That was a long time ago, and the Hartley is nowhere near being competitive with even the smallest Rythmik sub. Of course, driver and loudspeaker/subwoofer design has come a long way since then, current 24's being, I have no doubt (though I have yet to hear one), considerably better than the Hartley. Still, driver size is only one element is a sub's design.
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post #24989 of 30527 Old 08-11-2016, 08:57 PM
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We posted pre production pictures for both, FV18 and FV25HP. No production pictures yet.
Does anyone know the dimensions of these upcoming subs?
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post #24990 of 30527 Old 08-12-2016, 04:35 AM
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You might not, but others perhaps do.



I've had quite a few exchanges with David Gage in the past year or two, and I'd be willing to bet he would be uncomfortable with a statement such as this. The man is a class act all the way, and doesn't believe in any "mine is bigger than yours" bravado, so he's the last person to engage in this type of hyperbole. The Mariana 24 is quite the sub - and I'm certain current owners would corroborate that - but it's not unrivaled for the price.


Can you provide examples of subs with the specs of the Mariana 24"? I'm not aware of any. And when I mentioned to David that I dont know of any subs with his specs at this price, he challenged me to provide examples of ANY sub with these specs and I could not. Doesn't mean they don't exist, which is why I'm asking.


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