Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 850 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #25471 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Oh… how does your wife feel about the current position [of the sub pervs!]?
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
lol
Wow - just got that hahaha.

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post #25472 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I thought the LFE channel only goes to 120hz?
While it was once thought that the LFE .1 channel was band limited from 3 - 120Hz, there are Blu-ray titles with content above 120Hz. I believe most Blu-rays are encoded to start rolling off at 120Hz, meaning there is still content above. I believe Thor and one of the Transformers movies were confirmed to have LFE content not rolling off until 200Hz. My Marantz pre-pro allows the LFE high-pass be set as high as 250Hz.

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...mes-music-etc/

Do you know what your receiver does with the LFE content abobe 80Hz? I hope it sends it to the front L/R. Do you not feel that midbass is lacking with the house curve? Would you mind posting a sweep of the L or R channel w/sub as well as the center? REW thread is fine.

I always shoot for ±5dB up to 200Hz on L, C, & R.
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post #25473 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 06:10 AM
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Does Rythmik ever have sales? Had my wife talked into the price and size of an L22, but decided I would rather get an E15. Have her almost talked into the size, but not the price.

Could consider an F12. Room is a 15x30 open floor plan, with vaulted ceilings. Will be paired with Klipsch RF-82's, running from an XPA-5 gen1. Current sub is a 180W Sony model, which can't be heard due to the high efficiency of the main speakers and the high gain of the amp. For the Sony to be heard, it needs a large positive trim along with a large negative trim on the other speakers.
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post #25474 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Do you know what your receiver does with the LFE content abobe 80Hz? I hope it sends it to the front L/R.
Perhaps if the front speakers are set to large, but I've gotten better results setting front speakers to small.
There's not much LFE content over 80hz.

My receiver low passes LFE at 120hz with default settings, but that can be disabled.
I think the main reason to disable the receiver's 120hz low pass would be if you used the Rythmik's line-in input (rather than the LFE input), with a built-in 120hz low pass.

Ideally, stuff should be mixed so that sound isn't present in both LFE and main channels, so you don't have to worry about LFE phase alignment vs mains. For main content, phase alignment is a major concern.

Last edited by rcohen; 08-23-2016 at 06:35 AM.
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post #25475 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 06:30 AM
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Most AVR's low pass the LFE channel at 120Hz by default. Technically it is the correct setting but some prefer it lower (if adjustable).
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post #25476 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 06:54 AM
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LFE is not sampled the same as the rest of the signals and has an upper limit of <120 Hz. See e.g. http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/A...nal/38_LFE.pdf or dig into the site for the technical details. It is sampled at a lower rate and with lower resolution than the other channels. There is no way to get 200 Hz content from the LFE signal though of course other signals may reach that high in the AVR's sub output depending upon the AVR's bass management implementation.

Note the Low Frequency Effects (LFE) signal is not the same as the bass-managed LF signal derived from other channels. Pioneer sets the LFE passband the same as the LF crossover and does not pass LFE above that point to the main L/R speakers as do most other AVRs. In the real world the impact is minor if not insignificant.

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post #25477 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
While it was once thought that the LFE .1 channel was band limited from 3 - 120Hz, there are Blu-ray titles with content above 120Hz. I believe most Blu-rays are encoded to start rolling off at 120Hz, meaning there is still content above. I believe Thor and one of the Transformers movies were confirmed to have LFE content not rolling off until 200Hz. My Marantz pre-pro allows the LFE high-pass be set as high as 250Hz.

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...mes-music-etc/

Do you know what your receiver does with the LFE content abobe 80Hz? I hope it sends it to the front L/R. Do you not feel that midbass is lacking with the house curve? Would you mind posting a sweep of the L or R channel w/sub as well as the center? REW thread is fine.

I always shoot for ±5dB up to 200Hz on L, C, & R.
I'll run and post a sweep of the L and R (separate and together) w/sub tonight.

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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Perhaps if the front speakers are set to large, but I've gotten better results setting front speakers to small.
There's not much LFE content over 80hz.

My receiver low passes LFE at 120hz with default settings, but that can be disabled.
I think the main reason to disable the receiver's 120hz low pass would be if you used the Rythmik's line-in input (rather than the LFE input), with a built-in 120hz low pass.

Ideally, stuff should be mixed so that sound isn't present in both LFE and main channels, so you don't have to worry about LFE phase alignment vs mains. For main content, phase alignment is a major concern.
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Most AVR's low pass the LFE channel at 120Hz by default. Technically it is the correct setting but some prefer it lower (if adjustable).
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
LFE is not sampled the same as the rest of the signals and has an upper limit of <120 Hz. See e.g. http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/A...nal/38_LFE.pdf or dig into the site for the technical details. It is sampled at a lower rate and with lower resolution than the other channels. There is no way to get 200 Hz content from the LFE signal though of course other signals may reach that high in the AVR's sub output depending upon the AVR's bass management implementation.

Note the Low Frequency Effects (LFE) signal is not the same as the bass-managed LF signal derived from other channels. Pioneer sets the LFE passband the same as the LF crossover and does not pass LFE above that point to the main L/R speakers as do most other AVRs. In the real world the impact is minor if not insignificant.
The last thing Don said is what I've read (and heard) to be true. @PlasmaPZ80U - do you remember that link you sent me where there was a discussion regarding the pros/cons of setting LPF of LFE to 80Hz? I concluded that while it would be "nice" to not have Pioneer fade out (not chop off - BIG difference) the LFE at 80hz due to my speaker LF crossover being set to 80hz, there really isn't much, if anything lost. The audible impact is likely negligible, or if there, potentially even favorable. If Plasma can find that article, you can see there why some say a 80hz LPF of LFE is sometimes beneficial. Maybe it was just written to make us Pioneer shmos happy.

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Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44
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Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rhythmic FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15

Last edited by citsur86; 08-23-2016 at 07:14 AM.
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post #25478 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 07:11 AM
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Does Rythmik ever have sales? Had my wife talked into the price and size of an L22, but decided I would rather get an E15. Have her almost talked into the size, but not the price.

Could consider an F12. Room is a 15x30 open floor plan, with vaulted ceilings. Will be paired with Klipsch RF-82's, running from an XPA-5 gen1. Current sub is a 180W Sony model, which can't be heard due to the high efficiency of the main speakers and the high gain of the amp. For the Sony to be heard, it needs a large positive trim along with a large negative trim on the other speakers.
There is a B-stock E15HP piano black with black cone and H600PEQ3 amp available in the clearance area for $1214, but thats still ~$300 more than the L22 and F12 you're looking at. Could you sell the Sony to make up the difference?

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===========================================
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Fronts: B&W 684 S1 — Center: B&W CM Center S2
Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rhythmic FV15HP
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post #25479 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 07:14 AM
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So I have a 7.2.4 system with 2 L12's off a Marantz 7010. This is for Home Theater and NOT music.

With 2 subs what should I use for the inputs: Line In (LR) or the LFE?

What should I set the LPF Slope at: 12Db or 24Db?

What should the Bass Extension be set at: Low or Low-HT or High?

Thanks,
Joe
any suggestions?
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post #25480 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
So I have a 7.2.4 system with 2 L12's off a Marantz 7010. This is for Home Theater and NOT music.

With 2 subs what should I use for the inputs: Line In (LR) or the LFE?

What should I set the LPF Slope at: 12Db or 24Db?

What should the Bass Extension be set at: Low or Low-HT or High?

Thanks,

any suggestions?
I am definitely NOT the most knowledgeable here, but here is what I've learned/been told. If I am incorrect on any of the below, I hope someone will set me straight.

Unless you need additional headroom, use LFE. If you use Line In, I believe you get an additional 6db boost, which will let you play the subs louder with the volume knob set lower. If they are already loud enough and the volume knob isn't all the way to max, use LFE.

12db slope will roll off the LFE slower towards the high end of it's range, while a 24 slope will be more quick. From what I've read, the 24db slope can produce more punchy bass, but doesn't extend as far into the higher sub frequencies.

For Home Theater you should use Low extension to have the L12s play to their lowest frequencies. Again, I could be way off, but this is what I think I've understood so far.

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===========================================
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Fronts: B&W 684 S1 — Center: B&W CM Center S2
Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rhythmic FV15HP
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post #25481 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by jruser View Post
Could consider an F12. Room is a 15x30 open floor plan, with vaulted ceilings.
Don't do it; the F12 would be overwhelmed by that volume of space. The L22 for E15HP stand a much better chance of working in an area that large.

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post #25482 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 07:35 AM
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any suggestions?
Those settings are there for the end user to find what works best for them. LFE is generally used when letting bass management in the AVR handle the crossover. Ideally sealed subs use a 12db slope to make better use of room gain and increase extension. Using the 24db slope will probably work best with High Extension, where 12db will work best with Low extension. 24db and high will give you the most headroom but limit extension, where 12db and low extension will cost a bit of headroom for more extension. So you just have to experiment with the settings and find what works best for your room and listening requirements.

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post #25483 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 07:38 AM
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@citsur86 have you tried 100 or even 120hz crossover? There are many benefits of a higher xover (if it's not localized): your speakers and receiver do not have to work as hard result in a better sound including more bass from sub from which it's designed to handle.
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post #25484 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 07:57 AM
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@citsur86 have you tried 100 or even 120hz crossover? There are many benefits of a higher xover (if it's not localized): your speakers and receiver do not have to work as hard result in a better sound including more bass from sub from which it's designed to handle.
I did try a 100hz and 120hz LF Crossover in an attempt to mitigate the Pioneer rolling off the LPF of LFE at 80hz. The sub is nearfield, about 3 feet from my MLP. Around 80hz it starts getting localized. Still not horrible, but not ideal either. 100Hz was not as bad as 120Hz in term of HOW localized it sounded at the higher LFE frequencies. This is why I'm not too up in arms about the LPF of LFE rolling off at 80hz (at LF X.over). It prevents bad localization in both xover Frequencies and LFE channel frequencies.

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
===========================================
Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44
Fronts: B&W 684 S1 — Center: B&W CM Center S2
Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rhythmic FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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post #25485 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
LFE is not sampled the same as the rest of the signals and has an upper limit of <120 Hz. See e.g. http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/A...nal/38_LFE.pdf or dig into the site for the technical details. It is sampled at a lower rate and with lower resolution than the other channels. There is no way to get 200 Hz content from the LFE signal though of course other signals may reach that high in the AVR's sub output depending upon the AVR's bass management implementation.

Note the Low Frequency Effects (LFE) signal is not the same as the bass-managed LF signal derived from other channels. Pioneer sets the LFE passband the same as the LF crossover and does not pass LFE above that point to the main L/R speakers as do most other AVRs. In the real world the impact is minor if not insignificant.
I get most of what you're saying, but the underlined part... why would content from the LFE channel above 120Hz go to the main speakers (I thought LFE was sub only except when using double/extra bass features)? and didn't you state in the first line that there is nothing above 120Hz?

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post #25486 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I did try a 100hz and 120hz LF Crossover in an attempt to mitigate the Pioneer rolling off the LPF of LFE at 80hz. The sub is nearfield, about 3 feet from my MLP. Around 80hz it starts getting localized. Still not horrible, but not ideal either. 100Hz was not as bad as 120Hz in term of HOW localized it sounded at the higher LFE frequencies. This is why I'm not too up in arms about the LPF of LFE rolling off at 80hz (at LF X.over). It prevents bad localization in both xover Frequencies and LFE channel frequencies.
I think your next upgrade is a new receiver. Basshead found a Denon X4200 dealer certified with full warranty for $799. That's an amazing deal for a $1499 receiver. Last month I tested the Anthem AVM60 and Marantz AV7702mkII. I liked the AVM60 but it's plagued with so many bugs that I decided to return it. Returned the 7702mkII as well after learning that the new 7703 will be released by the end of October. The new Marantz and Denon (2016) models will come with Audyssey Smartphone app that will replace Aydyssey Pro Kit.

The app will also allow the user to check correction results, set target sound options, adjust frequency roll-off, set mid-range compensation controls and save/load/view/print results. The new app will be available from app stores in October for a cost of €19.99, which is considerably less than the old Audyssey Pro kit.
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post #25487 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 08:53 AM
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I think your next upgrade is a new receiver.
+1.
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post #25488 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 09:54 AM
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I think your next upgrade is a new receiver. Basshead found a Denon X4200 dealer certified with full warranty for $799. That's an amazing deal for a $1499 receiver. Last month I tested the Anthem AVM60 and Marantz AV7702mkII. I liked the AVM60 but it's plagued with so many bugs that I decided to return it. Returned the 7702mkII as well after learning that the new 7703 will be released by the end of October. The new Marantz and Denon (2016) models will come with Audyssey Smartphone app that will replace Aydyssey Pro Kit.



The app will also allow the user to check correction results, set target sound options, adjust frequency roll-off, set mid-range compensation controls and save/load/view/print results. The new app will be available from app stores in October for a cost of €19.99, which is considerably less than the old Audyssey Pro kit.


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+1.


I agree. I need a 9.2 channel Atmos/DTS:S system for many reasons at this point. The above conversation being one of those things. If anyone spots a good deal, please let me know!

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
===========================================
Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44
Fronts: B&W 684 S1 — Center: B&W CM Center S2
Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rhythmic FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15
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post #25489 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I did try a 100hz and 120hz LF Crossover in an attempt to mitigate the Pioneer rolling off the LPF of LFE at 80hz. The sub is nearfield, about 3 feet from my MLP. Around 80hz it starts getting localized. Still not horrible, but not ideal either. 100Hz was not as bad as 120Hz in term of HOW localized it sounded at the higher LFE frequencies. This is why I'm not too up in arms about the LPF of LFE rolling off at 80hz (at LF X.over). It prevents bad localization in both xover Frequencies and LFE channel frequencies.
I think your next upgrade is a new receiver. Basshead found a Denon X4200 dealer certified with full warranty for $799. That's an amazing deal for a $1499 receiver. Last month I tested the Anthem AVM60 and Marantz AV7702mkII. I liked the AVM60 but it's plagued with so many bugs that I decided to return it. Returned the 7702mkII as well after learning that the new 7703 will be released by the end of October. The new Marantz and Denon (2016) models will come with Audyssey Smartphone app that will replace Aydyssey Pro Kit.

The app will also allow the user to check correction results, set target sound options, adjust frequency roll-off, set mid-range compensation controls and save/load/view/print results. The new app will be available from app stores in October for a cost of ?19.99, which is considerably less than the old Audyssey Pro kit.
What is the minimum one has to spend to get the Audyssey smartphone app? Which Denon series?
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post #25490 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Last month I tested the Anthem AVM60 and Marantz AV7702mkII. I liked the AVM60 but it's plagued with so many bugs that I decided to return it. Returned the 7702mkII as well after learning that the new 7703 will be released by the end of October.
did you run rew in any of your demo? curious if results were better/worse? so many variables in sound, or is there from the equipment you choose?

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post #25491 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
What is the minimum one has to spend to get the Audyssey smartphone app? Which Denon series?
+1 - I may go hunting for some more information on this. The Marantz AV7703 pre/pro @enricoclaudio mentioned looks somewhat expensive - looks like it will be around $2,250. Looking for an AVR though.

I would actually be OK with not having the app and buying a previous generation as long as it's well regarded, has Atmos and DTS:X and can power 9.2 channels on it's own.

My Current "Living Room" Home Theater!
===========================================
Receiver:Pioneer Elite VSX-44
Fronts: B&W 684 S1 — Center: B&W CM Center S2
Surrounds: B&W 685 S1 — Subwoofer: Rhythmic FV15HP
Rear Surrounds: Polk Audio T15 — Front Heights: Polk Audio T15

Last edited by citsur86; 08-23-2016 at 10:44 AM.
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post #25492 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 10:41 AM
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+1 - I may go hunting for some more information on this. The Marantz AV7703 AVR @enricoclaudio mentioned looks somewhat expensive - looks like it will be around $2,250.

I would actually be OK with not having the app and buying a previous generation as long as it's well regarded, has Atmos and DTS:X and can power 9.2 channels on it's own.
As usual I could be wrong, I believe the 7703 is a preamp/processor which would require a separate amplifier... The 7702, which I expect it will replace is an Audio Video Preamp/Processor.


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post #25493 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
LFE is not sampled the same as the rest of the signals and has an upper limit of <120 Hz. See e.g. http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/A...nal/38_LFE.pdf or dig into the site for the technical details. It is sampled at a lower rate and with lower resolution than the other channels. There is no way to get 200 Hz content from the LFE signal though of course other signals may reach that high in the AVR's sub output depending upon the AVR's bass management implementation.

Note the Low Frequency Effects (LFE) signal is not the same as the bass-managed LF signal derived from other channels. Pioneer sets the LFE passband the same as the LF crossover and does not pass LFE above that point to the main L/R speakers as do most other AVRs. In the real world the impact is minor if not insignificant.
@DonH50 , the document you are citing is from 2000 so it applies only to legacy DD. Also, the lion's share of blu-ray titles use DTS-HD.

I found a relevant thread to this discussion and have quoted the most important excerpts.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...topics/1276273

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmilt13 View Post
Concerning LPF on LFE channel for the digital .1;

If you set it to 80hz, digital LFE channel contains sound up to 120hz, what happens to the sound information from 80-120hz?

I have read that is is discarded, but I have also been told it should be redirected to the mains, assuming they're set to large.

It appears this could be very receiver specific, or manufacturer.

Does anyone know where this sound goes?

I've searched and only found convoluted discussions...
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
It is lost. No processor that I know of re-directs it anywhere.

Set the LPF of LFE to 120 Hz.

Craig
Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post
The only time I know of when LFE is redirected to the mains is when they are set to large and sub is set to off/no. As Craig said, set LPF for LFE to 120. I really don't know why this setting is included.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by bsoko2

Why then is THX spec'd at 80 hz for the LFE?

THX is not "...spec'd at 80 Hz for the LFE". You might be confusing this with the THX crossover, which is spec'd at 80 Hz. However, this is completely different than the LPF of LFE.

The LPF of LFE and the THX crossover, (or any Bass Management crossover), are essentially unrelated. The Bass Management *crossover* is the combination of the HPF that is applied to the main channels that are set to "Small", (or in some Bass Management nomenclatures "have a crossover invoked"), and the LPF that is applied to the re-directed bass from those channels. The re-directed bass is then combined with the LFE channel, and the combined signal is sent to the subwoofer output. The LFE channel has been separately filtered by the LPF of LFE before being combined with the re-directed bass from the main channels. The LPF of LFE is not a "crossover" per se. It is *just* a Low Pass Filter applied *only* to the LFE channel. It should always be set to 120 Hz.

Only newer receivers even have a LPF of LFE. Before the advent of BluRay with Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA, the LFE channel was filtered during the recording process at 120 Hz. There was no need to re-filter it on playback. However, TrueHD and DTS-MA are "full-range" in all channels, including the LFE channel. Therefore, there is the possibility of some content in the LFE channel above 120 Hz. Hence, the need for an LPF of LFE on receivers/pre/pro's capable od decoding TrueHD and DTS-MA.

Most recording engineers don't place any content above 120 Hz in the LFE channel, (and , in fact, not much above 80 Hz), so it's not a huge issue either way. However, to ensure you don't "lose" any LFE content, the LPF of LFE should always be set to 120 Hz.

_______________________________________________
Some thoughts on the THX crossover:

The THX crossover is a very unique crossover designed to work specifically with THX speakers and sub. The HPF applied to the speakers is a 2nd Order, (12 dB/Octave roll-off) high pass. THX speakers are spec'd to have a -3 dB point of 80 Hz with a complimentary 2nd Order roll off. Add the two roll-offs together and you get a 4th Order, (24 dB/Octave) combined high pass roll off, with both starting at 80 Hz.

The THX LPF, (not the LPF of LFE, but the LPF applied to the re-directed bass), is spec'd at 24 dB/Octave, staring at 80 Hz. The combination of a 4th Order HPF and 4th Order LPF result in a perfect "Linkwitz-Riley" crossover with minimal phase issues.

The THX crossover is always included in THX receivers and pre/pro's, and it is always set at 80 Hz, with the HPF and LPF slopes pre-determined as above. However, in non-THX receivers and pre/pro's, unless the manufacturer specifies the crossover slopes, (and virtually none do), the slopes are unknown. They could be anything from 1st to 4th Oder, and they could be the same or different above or below the crossover point. In addition, the speakers being used with the crossover can vary in their low frequency roll off, as can the HF roll off of the sub. Whether or not the built-in crossover works "correctly* with the given speakers and subs is a total crap shoot.

The THX crossover plus THX speakers and subs is the *only* setup I'm aware of that is designed as a "system", where the components are designed to work together to yield a specific result. Say what you will about THX, their crossover is the best designed crossover "system" available, IMO.

Craig
Hopefully this explains why there is often content above 120Hz on Blu-ray. Many posting captured LFE on the data-bass thread use upper limit of 160Hz for this reason. I'll admit that the 200Hz titles (like Thor) are anomolies, they are definitely real not impossible.
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post #25494 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
+1 - I may go hunting for some more information on this. The Marantz AV7703 pre/pro @enricoclaudio mentioned looks somewhat expensive - looks like it will be around $2,250. Looking for an AVR though.

I would actually be OK with not having the app and buying a previous generation as long as it's well regarded, has Atmos and DTS:X and can power 9.2 channels on it's own.
You would be looking for the Marantz 7010 for 9 channels of amplification. I have the AV7702mkII and separate amplification. I am trying to get a hold of a pro kit which has a more accurate microphone and more options than the app will have. The 7010 and 7702mkII are great but I understand anyone wanting to wait on the new models which will support the app.
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post #25495 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I get most of what you're saying, but the underlined part... why would content from the LFE channel above 120Hz go to the main speakers (I thought LFE was sub only except when using double/extra bass features)? and didn't you state in the first line that there is nothing above 120Hz?
There are diagrams on the Dolby site showing various configurations. I'll try in text format:

Remember LFE is not part of the "main signal".

main signal above crossover -> main speakers
main signal below crossover -> sub -- this is what bass management does
LFE signal below crossover -> sub
LFE signal above crossover -> main speakers (optional; some do, some don't; Pioneer does not)

The LFE can range to <120 Hz (sampled at 240 Hz so must be strictly below 120 Hz sans undesirable images from the DAC). Some AVRs let you set the LFE crossover and main crossover differently, so if the sub crossover is at 80 Hz and LFE rolloff set to 120 Hz, then LFE content 80 Hz and below goes to the sub, and LFE from 80 to 120 Hz gets sent to the mains. Pioneer does not do that; LFE above 80 Hz (in this example) is simply rolled off and thrown away.

HTH - Don


Edit: I jumped into Plasma's quote, did not see all the other posts after, sorry.

Marc, No argument on the LFE frequencies, this is not my day job and I have not tried to keep current with whatever spec changes. I need to find updated specs and appreciate your sharing the info. I did grab that off the Dolby site today so they need to update their site. It was probably around 7 or 8 years ago when I upgraded my AVR and researched all this. At that time, Pioneer worked as I said above, and other brands did a smattering of other things with the LFE, from routing to the mains over crossover, to sending full bandwidth LFE to the sub no matter the sub crossover, to rolling it off as Pioneer does and never sending it to the mains unless they were designated Large.

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post #25496 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@DonH50 , the document you are citing is from 2000 so it applies only to legacy DD. Also, the lion's share of blu-ray titles use DTS-HD.

I found a relevant thread to this discussion and have quoted the most important excerpts.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...topics/1276273

Hopefully this explains why there is often content above 120Hz on Blu-ray....
Thanks - this was helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
You would be looking for the Marantz 7010 for 9 channels of amplification. I have the AV7702mkII and separate amplification. I am trying to get a hold of a pro kit which has a more accurate microphone and more options than the app will have. The 7010 and 7702mkII are great but I understand anyone wanting to wait on the new models which will support the app.
I've read its a great AVR - too rich for my blood, especially after spending on the FV15HP. If I could find a 9.2 channel AVR for $500-$700, even without Atmos and DTS:X I would probably be OK pulling the trigger. I just read a bit more and realized the front height speakers I have right now are not "Atmos" positioned. So I would be fine with having 9.1 active channels with front heights using PLIIz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
There are diagrams on the Dolby site showing various configurations. I'll try in text format:

Remember LFE is not part of the "main signal".

main signal above crossover -> main speakers
main signal below crossover -> sub -- this is what bass management does
LFE signal below crossover -> sub
LFE signal above crossover -> main speakers (optional; some do, some don't; Pioneer does not)....

HTH - Don
I had never heard of the bolded line above before! cool

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post #25497 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
did you run rew in any of your demo? curious if results were better/worse? so many variables in sound, or is there from the equipment you choose?
I didn't run REW. I liked the AVM60 better for music and the 7702mkII for movies. SubEQ HT make things easier when you run duals. ARC is a little bit more complicated with dual subwoofer setup. At the end I don't use AVRs for music because I like my Parasound P5 + Oppo 105D combo better. I just don't like any kind of processing for music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
As usual I could be wrong, I believe the 7703 is a preamp/processor which would require a separate amplifier... The 7702, which I expect it will replace is an Audio Video Preamp/Processor.

I run external amps as well so a pre/pro is more convenient for me. I have a SR7008 right now and using it as a pre/pro.



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post #25498 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
What is the minimum one has to spend to get the Audyssey smartphone app? Which Denon series?
All 2016 Denon and Marantz models will have the Audyssey Smartphone app available. The app cost $30 and will be released in October 2016.



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post #25499 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I've read its a great AVR - too rich for my blood, especially after spending on the FV15HP. If I could find a 9.2 channel AVR for $500-$700, even without Atmos and DTS:X I would probably be OK pulling the trigger. I just read a bit more and realized the front height speakers I have right now are not "Atmos" positioned. So I would be fine with having 9.1 active channels with front heights using PLIIz.
AVRs take a big price jump between 7.2 and 9.2. You'd have to go used or refurbished. Look at accessories4less.com.
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post #25500 of 26263 Old 08-23-2016, 11:10 AM
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most of the music I listen to sounds best in direct mode also...but sometimes I like my subs boosting the bass and I switch out of direct mode...usually that means my subs are overpowering mids/highs anyways.

I am always bored and moving my subs around, shifting my furniture, adjusting toe in, running rew, etc...in my space, its really hard to mess up my sound or make it that much better...but I enjoy the process. retirement isnt all that its cracked up to be.

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Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc800v, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Velodyne HGS 12, VA 1512, Rythmik FV15HP
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