Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 868 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26011 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 09:11 AM
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Also, something is not right with your room dimensions. Either one dimension is not correct or the total volume is not correct. If the dimensions are OK then your room is about 2200 cu ft and that's a large room for a single L12. A ported subwoofer like the LV12R will do better or even dual L12s. If room volume is correct (assuming one of the room dimensions is not), then follow what Alan P. is recommending.



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post #26012 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Like I mentioned in another thread, as far I know, only @Cain did a direct comparison between the F25 vs S3000. He had a pair of S3000 and one F25, at the end he returned the pair of S3000s and ordered another F25 and he is running now a pair of F25s in his 2500 cu ft dedicated HT room. In Cain's words: IMO, the F25s are miles ahead on music, and very good on movies. The PSAs were more bombastic for big movies but too boomy for music in my theater.
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Did PSA have free returns on the S3000?
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Yes, up until the end of June they did have free return shipping on the S3000i. The freight shipped models… S3600i, V3600i, and T18 never had free return shipping.
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I'm not saying it had an effect on this transaction but sometimes your ears could follow your wallet.

I've never heard either so I can't say for myself.
Can't speak for @Cain but if it was me, there is nothing wrong coming out and say the psa was as good but it's free to return, so I keep the Rythmik. If you read his posts in the psa thread, he had all the intention to keep the s3000i over the f25 at his early shopping stage and was going to drive to Rythmik to drop off the F25. Free shipping especially both ways has its pros and cons for business owner. The pros is that it gives folks a peace of mind so the company will sell more than its competitor who does not offer free shipping. The con is people start to abuse it and returning stuffs for no reason which is probably one of the reason psa does not offer free return anymore.
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post #26013 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
The first thing to check is if you are sitting in a null. Get up and walk around the room during intense bass scenes/music, is the bass much stronger in other locations around the room? If so, you need to move the sub and/or the MLP to fix the issue.
I'll look into that. But do my settings look correct?

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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Also, something is not right with your room dimensions. Either one dimension is not correct or the total volume is not correct. If the dimensions are OK then your room is about 2200 cu ft and that's a large room for a single L12. A ported subwoofer like the LV12R will do better or even dual L12s. If room volume is correct (assuming one of the room dimensions is not), then follow what Alan P. is recommending.
Sorry I forgot to mention I have DUAL L12s. I'll edit my comment to accomodate.
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post #26014 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
I have a 7.2.4 setup and I'm not getting enough response (at least the response I would like) from my L12's. Any idea if there are settings issues?

- I have the sub on my Marantz 7010 at -2.0dB
- the cross over on the AVR is at 80Hz
- The cable is plugged into the LFE input
- The crossover on the sub is maxed
- The LFE Slope is at 12dB
- Extension is at Low-HT
- The volume knob is directly at 12 o'clock (50%)
- my room is 1260 cu ft (13x7x24)

Is there any thing I should change to get more punch? Should I increase the cross over, move the volume level up? Change the LPF slope (not sure if that's correct in the LFE port)? My subs are near my large sectional is it possible they are absorbing too much of the sound?
If I did my math right, your room has 2184 ft3, almost twice as large as you thought.
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post #26015 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by klh007 View Post
If I did my math right, your room has 2184 ft3, almost twice as large as you thought.
I edited that too. I typed it wrong.
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post #26016 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 11:00 AM
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I'm going to play with position of the subs (because MLP can't move) but are these settings correct?

- I have the sub on my Marantz 7010 at -2.0dB
- the cross over on the AVR is at 80Hz
- The cable is plugged into the LFE input
- The crossover on the sub is maxed
- The LFE Slope is at 12dB
- Extension is at Low-HT
- The volume knob is directly at 12 o'clock (50%)
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post #26017 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
I edited that too. I typed it wrong.
Have you ever considered doing any measurements with REW and a UMIK-1 Mic? If not, maybe just try to turn the subs' volume up. In the large room I have, I had an LV12R that I had to keep around the 3pm area to get a decent response. With the FV15HP I replaced it with, I still have it at around the 1pm mark with dual LFE inputs (+6 db gain). Might just be simple as you not having it turned up enough.

However, if you've run MCACC or Audyssey or similar and balanced the sub response out to -6db, and turned it up +3-6db hot from there, my suggestion probably won't work at all.
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post #26018 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
I'm going to play with position of the subs (because MLP can't move) but are these settings correct?

- I have the sub on my Marantz 7010 at -2.0dB
- the cross over on the AVR is at 80Hz
- The cable is plugged into the LFE input
- The crossover on the sub is maxed
- The LFE Slope is at 12dB
- Extension is at Low-HT
- The volume knob is directly at 12 o'clock (50%)
With you using the LFE input the following is bypassed

- slope
- sub crossover

Also you might need to turn up the sub since its at 12 o'clock which is super low.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
I'm going to play with position of the subs (because MLP can't move) but are these settings correct?

- I have the sub on my Marantz 7010 at -2.0dB
- the cross over on the AVR is at 80Hz
- The cable is plugged into the LFE input
- The crossover on the sub is maxed
- The LFE Slope is at 12dB
- Extension is at Low-HT
- The volume knob is directly at 12 o'clock (50%)

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Receiver - Sony STR-DH550
Fronts - Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-280F
Center
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Surrounds - Trash
Sub - Rythmik FV15HP
The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts Heavy Cinematic | Heavy Electronic|
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post #26019 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
I'm going to play with position of the subs (because MLP can't move) but are these settings correct?

- I have the sub on my Marantz 7010 at -2.0dB
- the cross over on the AVR is at 80Hz
- The cable is plugged into the LFE input
- The crossover on the sub is maxed
- The LFE Slope is at 12dB
- Extension is at Low-HT
- The volume knob is directly at 12 o'clock (50%)
Download the "Dialing in Rythmik Sub Guide" from the link here and run through it. It was very helpful for me!

You want to EQ the subs to -6, then bump them up through your AVR to taste. 80Hz Xover is fine 99% of the time. LFE input is fine if you can EQ to -6 without turning subs' volume knob up too high. If you do have to do that, then you may want to use Line In. All other settings look good (except the Subs' volume knob probably has to be higher). If the 7010 is auto EQ the sub to -2db, you want to turn up the sub volume knob until it sets it at -6db - that is the best suggestion (from the guide above). Then you can even run it hotter through the AVR from there.
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post #26020 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
I'm going to play with position of the subs (because MLP can't move) but are these settings correct?

- I have the sub on my Marantz 7010 at -2.0dB
- the cross over on the AVR is at 80Hz
- The cable is plugged into the LFE input
- The crossover on the sub is maxed
- The LFE Slope is at 12dB
- Extension is at Low-HT
- The volume knob is directly at 12 o'clock (50%)
Those settings look correct to me. But even having Audyssey XT32 + SubEQ HT is not a guaranty that you won't have to deal with room modes and even cancellation between subwoofers. I would recommend to change the input on both subwoofers to LINE IN so you can fine tune delay/phase in case you have cancelation between subwoofers. I had cancelation between subwoofers at the crossover point and got it fixed changing the delay/phase in one of my F12SEs. I have a Marantz SR7008 with Audyssey XT32 + SubEQ HT.



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Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL & Sierra 2s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
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post #26021 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MrGrey View Post
With you using the LFE input the following is bypassed

- slope
- sub crossover

Also you might need to turn up the sub since its at 12 o'clock which is super low.
So 12 vs 24 doesn't matter. Is LFE appropriate for dual subs?

Also, the AVR manual suggested it the 12 o clock position. I'm happy to move it. Would 3 o'clock be okay? Or how much is too much?
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post #26022 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Download the "Dialing in Rythmik Sub Guide" from the link here and run through it. It was very helpful for me!

You want to EQ the subs to -6, then bump them up through your AVR to taste. 80Hz Xover is fine 99% of the time. LFE input is fine if you can EQ to -6 without turning subs' volume knob up too high. If you do have to do that, then you may want to use Line In. All other settings look good (except the Subs' volume knob probably has to be higher). If the 7010 is auto EQ the sub to -2db, you want to turn up the sub volume knob until it sets it at -6db - that is the best suggestion (from the guide above). Then you can even run it hotter through the AVR from there.
Why is this the case:

"Select the Subwoofer Mode, such that the bass is only played back from subwoofer (e.g. LFE only mode), not“subwoofer + front speakers” or LFE+Mains or "Double Bass"

The reason I ask is because my HTPC won't play stuff through the sub without LFE+Main on my Marantz 7010
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post #26023 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Why is this the case:

"Select the Subwoofer Mode, such that the bass is only played back from subwoofer (e.g. LFE only mode), not“subwoofer + front speakers” or LFE+Mains or "Double Bass"

The reason I ask is because my HTPC won't play stuff through the sub without LFE+Main on my Marantz 7010
I believe this setting on an AVR makes the speakers full range, while also sending anything below the crossover come out of the subwoofer (as well as the normal LFE track as normal). Do you know why your HTPC will not play anything through the sub without LFE+Main selected? Have you played with the settings on the PC? Maybe it's not setup for the .1 channel?

Just had a thought - do you have all your other speakers set to small?
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post #26024 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
So 12 vs 24 doesn't matter. Is LFE appropriate for dual subs?

Also, the AVR manual suggested it the 12 o clock position. I'm happy to move it. Would 3 o'clock be okay? Or how much is too much?
Dialing-in Rythmik Subwoofers.pdf

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...5&d=1467759328






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Last edited by MrGrey; 09-12-2016 at 11:57 AM.
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post #26025 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Why is this the case:

"Select the Subwoofer Mode, such that the bass is only played back from subwoofer (e.g. LFE only mode), not“subwoofer + front speakers” or LFE+Mains or "Double Bass"

The reason I ask is because my HTPC won't play stuff through the sub without LFE+Main on my Marantz 7010
All speakers must be set to "Small".
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post #26026 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 12:16 PM
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So 2 channel inputs is 2 subs? Or is 2 channel inputs literally using R and L on the same sub (not sure why that would be the case)
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post #26027 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
So 2 channel inputs is 2 subs? Or is 2 channel inputs literally using R and L on the same sub (not sure why that would be the case)
No 2ch has nothing to do with that. 2ch Is LR+Sub but that's for people who do music or for whatever reason they may want to use that. Use that link and it will guide you all the way thought the process.

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May have to use line in for one of the subs if the AVR does not set delay independently for the two subs, and adjust the phase appropriately.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #26029 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Also, the AVR manual suggested it the 12 o clock position. I'm happy to move it. Would 3 o'clock be okay? Or how much is too much?
Only you can answer those questions really. The dials are there to allow adjustments relative to your own circumstance and proclivities. There is no standard.

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post #26030 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 02:05 PM
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Only you can answer those questions really. The dials are there to allow adjustments relative to your own circumstance and proclivities. There is no standard.
I just want to make sure I don't damage the sub
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post #26031 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
I'm going to play with position of the subs (because MLP can't move) but are these settings correct?

- I have the sub on my Marantz 7010 at -2.0dB
- the cross over on the AVR is at 80Hz
- The cable is plugged into the LFE input
- The crossover on the sub is maxed
- The LFE Slope is at 12dB
- Extension is at Low-HT
- The volume knob is directly at 12 o'clock (50%)
Do your other speakers play down to 80hz? If not, you've got a hole in freq response that could explain some of the lack of punch.

I run dual L12s in a similar sized space. Both are in the 'best' places they can reasonably go in my room. One up front near LCR and one near-field to MLP, both in center of long wall(s). I gain matched them first at 75db close mic'd. Using line-in for both, I set the far sub phase to 0, and dialed in the phase on the near-field sub to phase/time align them for smoothest frequency response. Then I ran my room correction software to integrate with other speakers, setting the global distance/phase delay for highest output. They definitely have enough power to play at levels beyond what I care to subject myself. I usually listen/watch around -20db for 'movie night' and they show no signs of running out of headroom.

You won't hurt anything by turning up the gain on both (within reason) to see if you prefer them a bit hotter than they are running now.
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post #26032 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by lairpost View Post
Do your other speakers play down to 80hz? If not, you've got a hole in freq response that could explain some of the lack of punch.

I run dual L12s in a similar sized space. Both are in the 'best' places they can reasonably go in my room. One up front near LCR and one near-field to MLP, both in center of long wall(s). I gain matched them first at 75db close mic'd. Using line-in for both, I set the far sub phase to 0, and dialed in the phase on the near-field sub to phase/time align them for smoothest frequency response. Then I ran my room correction software to integrate with other speakers, setting the global distance/phase delay for highest output. They definitely have enough power to play at levels beyond what I care to subject myself. I usually listen/watch around -20db for 'movie night' and they show no signs of running out of headroom.

You won't hurt anything by turning up the gain on both (within reason) to see if you prefer them a bit hotter than they are running now.
Yes, my fronts go down to 44Hz with a 34Hz with a low frequency extension. I have add them in my signature (I finally have some gear that warrants a signature ).

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bummer. too bad i have no friends or anyone to help. maybe it's best to get something shipped then instead of going through craigslist or other local sources.
I have sold several heavy things on CL and have always helped the purchaser get said item into the vehicle. Go for it! As others have said there are many ways you can move it around dolly is just one of them.

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post #26034 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 04:40 PM
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The reason I ask is because my HTPC won't play stuff through the sub without LFE+Main on my Marantz 7010
What playback software do you use? I use an htpc as source and it plays sound thru sub with just LFE selected on my Denon.
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post #26035 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 05:34 PM
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What playback software do you use? I use an htpc as source and it plays sound thru sub with just LFE selected on my Denon.
I was playing the Spotify app. I might have had my fronts set to Large at that point. I'm going to experiment again and I'll report back my findings
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post #26036 of 29909 Old 09-12-2016, 06:46 PM
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I just want to make sure I don't damage the sub
Nothing is completely infallible I'm afraid. However, there are stout protection mechanisms built into the amp that all but nullify any potential damage, short of doing something deliberate or extremely foolish that is. 99% of the population would recognize the obvious audible signs of over-doing it, so there's little to no chance you wouldn't have sufficient warning to back it down were you ever to reach one of those limits. Tune everything properly first, but then feel free to adjust to taste.

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post #26037 of 29909 Old 09-13-2016, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Can't speak for @Cain but if it was me, there is nothing wrong coming out and say the psa was as good but it's free to return, so I keep the Rythmik. If you read his posts in the psa thread, he had all the intention to keep the s3000i over the f25 at his early shopping stage and was going to drive to Rythmik to drop off the F25. Free shipping especially both ways has its pros and cons for business owner. The pros is that it gives folks a peace of mind so the company will sell more than its competitor who does not offer free shipping. The con is people start to abuse it and returning stuffs for no reason which is probably one of the reason psa does not offer free return anymore.
http://www.cainstheater.com

The fact that he picked up and could drop off the F25s negates the free PSA shipping (at the time) IMO. I believe he gave them a fair compare. Looking at his theater, I think the front facing F25s were a natural choice for his space.

For me, I ended up ordering the S3000i. I have a 70/30 movie/music ratio. Tom V gave me a great deal on a B-stock, premium veneer (Cordovan Cherry). While I felt the F25 was more than likely superior… the S3000i was much lighter (I am partially disabled), had greater WAF, was more power efficient, and I felt would be a better match with my existing PSA S1500s (which I can stack like a F25 to fit in my front stage… F25 or S3000i won't fit).

Enrico and Brian were great addressing any questions or concerns I had. PM w/Enrico is almost as efficient as live chat w/PSA.

I still feel that the F25 is an often overlooked gem of the Rythmik lineup. I bet it can handle all the torture tests like EOT intro which most ported subs (and many sealed) choke on. Unfortunately it requires freight shipping.

I'm hoping Rythmik offers a F18HP eventually (in the works?). ☺️ Something that comes near the performance of the F25 but w/standard shipping. Standard shipping increases the chances of someone ordering multiple brands for a shootout. I would have loved to have done that and hosted a GTG.
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post #26038 of 29909 Old 09-13-2016, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
All speakers must be set to "Small".
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Yes, my fronts go down to 44Hz with a 34Hz with a low frequency extension. I have add them in my signature (I finally have some gear that warrants a signature ).
My speakers are rated -3dB @ 25Hz and -10dB @ 18Hz. In room I get -3dB @ 18Hz. However, when I measure (REW/UMIK-1) at increasing volume levels the low frequency distortion started increasing greatly. I have switched them from LARGE to SMALL in my Marantz AV7702mkII (the pre/pro version of your SR 7010). I am much happier with performance now.

Great link explaining:
http://www.audyssey.com/blog/small-vs-large
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post #26039 of 29909 Old 09-13-2016, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
http://www.cainstheater.com

The fact that he picked up and could drop off the F25s negates the free PSA shipping (at the time) IMO. I believe he gave them a fair compare. Looking at his theater, I think the front facing F25s were a natural choice for his space.

For me, I ended up ordering the S3000i. I have a 70/30 movie/music ratio. Tom V gave me a great deal on a B-stock, premium veneer (Cordovan Cherry). While I felt the F25 was more than likely superior… the S3000i was much lighter (I am partially disabled), had greater WAF, was more power efficient, and I felt would be a better match with my existing PSA S1500s (which I can stack like a F25 to fit in my front stage… F25 or S3000i won't fit).

Enrico and Brian were great addressing any questions or concerns I had. PM w/Enrico is almost as efficient as live chat w/PSA.

I still feel that the F25 is an often overlooked gem of the Rythmik lineup. I bet it can handle all the torture tests like EOT intro which most ported subs (and many sealed) choke on. Unfortunately it requires freight shipping.

I'm hoping Rythmik offers a F18HP eventually (in the works?). ☺️ Something that comes near the performance of the F25 but w/standard shipping. Standard shipping increases the chances of someone ordering multiple brands for a shootout. I would have loved to have done that and hosted a GTG.
Nice theater.
Not too many basements in Texas.
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post #26040 of 29909 Old 09-13-2016, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
My speakers are rated -3dB @ 25Hz and -10dB @ 18Hz. In room I get -3dB @ 18Hz. However, when I measure (REW/UMIK-1) at increasing volume levels the low frequency distortion started increasing greatly. I have switched them from LARGE to SMALL in my Marantz AV7702mkII (the pre/pro version of your SR 7010). I am much happier with performance now.

Great link explaining:
http://www.audyssey.com/blog/small-vs-large
Excellent point. A lot of people forget, or do not realize, just how much power goes into the lowest frequencies and how much distortion is generated. And far too many hear the distortion and feel their system sounds "richer, fuller, deeper" because of it and without understanding what they are really hearing. They get a clean system with proper crossovers and a good sub and don't like it because the "boom" went away. Been there...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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