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post #26551 of 30671 Old 10-07-2016, 09:21 PM
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^^ yes, only with Audyssey subeqHT.
What you see at reference 0 MV is where my subs compressed. It compressed in the null region due to room mode that I cannot fix with 2 subs. Adding another FV15 or FV25 will more likely cure this problem; however, my normal listening level is -15MV with +8 bass hot (dynEQ off), so I am good with the pair.
On a side note that recently discussed here, adding a pair of the Behringer 1200d as MBM's to the back corners of my room with 2 FV15 in front corners will more likely smooth out that mid bass region along with the increase in chest slam tactile response. It seems to be a cheap and great solution for me being 99% movie.
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post #26552 of 30671 Old 10-07-2016, 10:28 PM
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I assume this is a pretty rare use case but is anyone running multiple L22s in a ~3000 cubic foot room? If so, are these up to the task output-wise? It would be 90% movies.

I am considering four L22s, two co-located in the back of the room and two more along the side walls.

Coming from a JTR Orbit Shifter LF, which is a good sub but i can only fit it in one place in the room and I am getting some nulls in key viewing seats. Also, I don't run the OS very hard.
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post #26553 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post
I assume this is a pretty rare use case but is anyone running multiple L22s in a ~3000 cubic foot room? If so, are these up to the task output-wise? It would be 90% movies.

I am considering four L22s, two co-located in the back of the room and two more along the side walls.

Coming from a JTR Orbit Shifter LF, which is a good sub but i can only fit it in one place in the room and I am getting some nulls in key viewing seats. Also, I don't run the OS very hard.
Is your room open in the back? If the room is closed, it would be ideal to position the subs so you have symmetry along the length and width of the room to cancel nulls.

It would be a tough decision between 4x F22s and 2x F25s or FV15HPs.
The F22s are smaller, of course, if that's a key constraint.
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post #26554 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
No, basically take REW measurement sweeps starting at 75dB and then 80dB, 85dB, etc until you reach point where the SPL at 12Hz increases less than 5dB from the previous sweep. But since your MV isn't labeled in dB steps you need to know how many increments equal a 5dB increase from sweep to sweep.

Make sure limiter is on and consider wearing earplugs if near the sub.


One thing I forgot to ask. Should I have the tests done while going through my PEQ filters and/or MCACC EQ?
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post #26555 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Is your room open in the back? If the room is closed, it would be ideal to position the subs so you have symmetry along the length and width of the room to cancel nulls.



It would be a tough decision between 4x F22s and 2x F25s or FV15HPs.

The F22s are smaller, of course, if that's a key constraint.


Yes my room is a closed dedicated area thanks.
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post #26556 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 07:02 AM
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^^ what is your normal listening level and how hot is your bass?
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post #26557 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 07:39 AM
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Yes my room is a closed dedicated area thanks.
In that case, the REW room simulator is a great way to experiment with different sub placements and quantities.

These were the best combos in my closed, rectangular room:
1) 2x subs, center wall placement on opposite sides (preferably across the longer axis).
2) 2x subs, opposite corners.
3) 4x subs, 4 corners.

#1 worked the best without EQ, but #2 & 3 worked better with EQ (more output, minimal nulls, peaks that could be fixed with EQ). #2 had some issues with seat-to-seat consistency, but I still found I needed the extra output from corner loading in my room.

I ultimately went with #3.

YMMV.
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post #26558 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
No, basically take REW measurement sweeps starting at 75dB and then 80dB, 85dB, etc until you reach point where the SPL at 12Hz increases less than 5dB from the previous sweep. But since your MV isn't labeled in dB steps you need to know how many increments equal a 5dB increase from sweep to sweep.

Make sure limiter is on and consider wearing earplugs if near the sub.


One thing I forgot to ask. Should I have the tests done while going through my PEQ filters and/or MCACC EQ?
I would do it with everything set as you normally listen.
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post #26559 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ what is your normal listening level and how hot is your bass?
Usually around -20 or so. OS gain is pretty low - around 25% of whatever the dial goes to. Audyssey sets my sub level to like -8 and I then bump it up a few so 3 or 4 db hot. I can get the bass to a decently acceptable level in the middle seats if I raise it another 4-5. but then then it is uncomfortable in several seats nearfield to the OS.
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post #26560 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
In that case, the REW room simulator is a great way to experiment with different sub placements and quantities.

These were the best combos in my closed, rectangular room:
1) 2x subs, center wall placement on opposite sides (preferably across the longer axis).
2) 2x subs, opposite corners.
3) 4x subs, 4 corners.

#1 worked the best without EQ, but #2 & 3 worked better with EQ (more output, minimal nulls, peaks that could be fixed with EQ). #2 had some issues with seat-to-seat consistency, but I still found I needed the extra output from corner loading in my room.


YMMV.
Thank you. What subs do you use and what microphone do you use for REW? I may try that out.
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post #26561 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post
Thank you. What subs do you use and what microphone do you use for REW? I may try that out.
You don't need any equipment to run the the simulator. Everything is free.
I'd recommend setting everything to be time aligned, since I prefer the way that sounds, even at the expense of frequency response.
It's also great for experimenting with different seating locations.

To do measurements with REW, a UMIK-1 is a good and easy way to go. Also, any cheap boom mic stand and a USB extension cord are handy.

Taking measurements is certainly extremely helpful for getting good results.

Edit: I am using 4x F25s in a 6,500 cu ft room.

Last edited by rcohen; 10-08-2016 at 08:04 AM.
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post #26562 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post
Usually around -20 or so. OS gain is pretty low - around 25% of whatever the dial goes to. Audyssey sets my sub level to like -8 and I then bump it up a few so 3 or 4 db hot. I can get the bass to a decently acceptable level in the middle seats if I raise it another 4-5. but then then it is uncomfortable in several seats nearfield to the OS.
More subs would certainly help to get better consistency.
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post #26563 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post
Usually around -20 or so. OS gain is pretty low - around 25% of whatever the dial goes to. Audyssey sets my sub level to like -8 and I then bump it up a few so 3 or 4 db hot. I can get the bass to a decently acceptable level in the middle seats if I raise it another 4-5. but then then it is uncomfortable in several seats nearfield to the OS.
Then 4 L22's are plenty IMO. Your OS rolls off at 17hz, right? The 4 L22's will go down to the teen or even single digit in your room with clean deep sound across all seats (more likely). No offense but I have listened to a pair of OS and found they are boomie and not very clean sound.
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post #26564 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Then 4 L22's are plenty IMO. Your OS rolls off at 17hz, right? The 4 L22's will go down to the teen or even single digit in your room with clean deep sound across all seats (more likely). No offense but I have listened to a pair of OS and found they are boomie and not very clean sound.


No offense taken. I actually had two of them at one time. They are a good sub but perhaps not right for my intended application.


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post #26565 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 09:39 AM
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No offense taken. I actually had two of them at one time. They are a good sub but perhaps not right for my intended application.
That room simulator should tell you a lot with sub placement, quantity, and seating placement.
That's probably the main stuff you are wrestling with.
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post #26566 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Edit: I am using 4x F25s in a 6,500 cu ft room.
You are my idol! I wish you were my neighbor so I could hear your setup.

Do you ever find yourself wanting for more tactile response (like 4 FV25s) or, well… anything?
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post #26567 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 02:08 PM
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Just watched The Conjuring 2... haven't seen a more visceral movie in quite a while and it certainly didn't leave me thinking I need a MBM... my LV12R is a proper beast in my 1150 cubic foot room when playing content like this.
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post #26568 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ yes, only with Audyssey subeqHT.
What you see at reference 0 MV is where my subs compressed. It compressed in the null region due to room mode that I cannot fix with 2 subs. Adding another FV15 or FV25 will more likely cure this problem; however, my normal listening level is -15MV with +8 bass hot (dynEQ off), so I am good with the pair.
On a side note that recently discussed here, adding a pair of the Behringer 1200d as MBM's to the back corners of my room with 2 FV15 in front corners will more likely smooth out that mid bass region along with the increase in chest slam tactile response. It seems to be a cheap and great solution for me being 99% movie.
I see
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post #26569 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Just watched The Conjuring 2... haven't seen a more visceral movie in quite a while and it certainly didn't leave me thinking I need a MBM... my LV12R is a proper beast in my 1150 cubic foot room when playing content like this.
You mean you only have 1 sub? Just kidding. I have almost the same size room, and I will be getting the same sub in a few weeks.
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post #26570 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Then 4 L22's are plenty IMO. Your OS rolls off at 17hz, right? The 4 L22's will go down to the teen or even single digit in your room with clean deep sound across all seats (more likely). No offense but I have listened to a pair of OS and found they are boomie and not very clean sound.
Couple of misconceptions here.

1) Boomy = room interaction/setup/eq/integration. A good quality sub that sounds boomy is because of how it is set up.
2) A handful of L22's won't have an output advantage over an OS LFU until at least the very low teens if at all in room. The room plays a bit of a different role with horn subs, as the room and boundary interactions effectively lengthens the horn, increasing low end output and extension more than room gain alone would for a sealed or ported sub. At 10 Hz, the OS is up around 10 dB vs an SB13Ultra, which is close to 4x. In room the advantage would be greater.

You are correct that the OS wheelhouse is 20Hz and above, but it still acts like an extremely powerful 18" high excursion sealed sub below.
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post #26571 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by raxxx View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Just watched The Conjuring 2... haven't seen a more visceral movie in quite a while and it certainly didn't leave me thinking I need a MBM... my LV12R is a proper beast in my 1150 cubic foot room when playing content like this.
You mean you only have 1 sub? Just kidding. I have almost the same size room, and I will be getting the same sub in a few weeks.
Have fun... it will likely redefine what you think a sub should sound like.
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post #26572 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 03:22 PM
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You are my idol! I wish you were my neighbor so I could hear your setup.

Do you ever find yourself wanting for more tactile response (like 4 FV25s) or, well… anything?
It's a big volume, and I wasn't satisfied until I got to 4 and corner loaded.
It's hard to say whether more would be helpful or just headache inducing.
Of course, if you have too much, you can just turn it down.
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post #26573 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 03:23 PM
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Couple of misconceptions here.

1) Boomy = room interaction/setup/eq/integration. A good quality sub that sounds boomy is because of how it is set up.
2) A handful of L22's won't have an output advantage over an OS LFU until at least the very low teens if at all in room. The room plays a bit of a different role with horn subs, as the room and boundary interactions effectively lengthens the horn, increasing low end output and extension more than room gain alone would for a sealed or ported sub. At 10 Hz, the OS is up around 10 dB vs an SB13Ultra, which is close to 4x. In room the advantage would be greater.

You are correct that the OS wheelhouse is 20Hz and above, but it still acts like an extremely powerful 18" high excursion sealed sub below.
Agreed, unless he is having trouble with nulls or seat to seat consistency. For that, more subs would be just the thing.
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post #26574 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Couple of misconceptions here.

1) Boomy = room interaction/setup/eq/integration. A good quality sub that sounds boomy is because of how it is set up.
2) A handful of L22's won't have an output advantage over an OS LFU until at least the very low teens if at all in room. The room plays a bit of a different role with horn subs, as the room and boundary interactions effectively lengthens the horn, increasing low end output and extension more than room gain alone would for a sealed or ported sub. At 10 Hz, the OS is up around 10 dB vs an SB13Ultra, which is close to 4x. In room the advantage would be greater.

You are correct that the OS wheelhouse is 20Hz and above, but it still acts like an extremely powerful 18" high excursion sealed sub below.
I know what you are talking about. With the sub or subs as big as the OS, there is not much option to place them as compared to small sealed subs. I have listened 2 separate set ups with dual OS and found them boomy in both places especially at high playback level. I didn't say the 4 L22's would have more output advantage over the OS (I know what it is capable of). What I was trying to say is that the 4 sealed L22's will definitely have a much flatter response down to teen or single digits as compared to a single OS plus a much better seat to seat variance in which the op seems to have the issue with his OS. The OS might have 4x the output at 10hz but is -10db or more as compared to its output at 20hz. Horn sub has great output capacity but has more ringing as compared to sealed. This more ringing translates to boomy as compared to sealed sub.

Last edited by tvuong; 10-08-2016 at 04:11 PM.
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post #26575 of 30671 Old 10-08-2016, 06:59 PM
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Good point. 4 L22's would undoubtedly give a great response if set up well.
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4 x L22s with a miniDSP DDRC-24 would be a very good choice.



Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
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Brian is leaving to China next week. He is going to take pictures of the final products and also approve them for production. We don't have a firmed ETA yet but these two models will be released this year. SVS took 9 years to come out with the 16" models, we have been working with the FV18 and FV25HP for less than a year, so please be patient guys
You guys are gonna kick their ass!! forget all the fancy stuff SVS 16 ultra series has, when it comes down to what is extremely important i personally think based on the past it will not beat Rythmik for performance and price when it comes down to it.
I imagine it's going to be very close.
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Watched the new ninja turtles today and the car explosions moved me. Very nice bass and no locolization if the bass itself.

Cannot wait to put up the projector and finally enjoy a real theater lol
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post #26579 of 30671 Old 10-09-2016, 05:14 AM
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I was told elsewhere that you can't feel 12hz out of a FV15HP unless you're in a small closet with it. Not saying that's not true. While I see it does register 12hz on REW at 90db, I certainly can't feel it at that volume. Has me thinking, if that's the case, why does it even matter that it goes down to 12hz?


Human hearing is non-linear. This Fourier frequency domain mathematics (hz) is for engineering convenience. Even though you cannot hear the 12hz by itself, but you can hear the difference a 12hz bandwidth make in sound reproduction. It is noticable in a good music recording. A lower extended bass should make your sound stage bigger, deeper, and taller. It does not need a lot of 12hz energy either. At least that is how I started making subwoofers. Coincidentally, many customers also use those for movies.
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post #26580 of 30671 Old 10-09-2016, 06:16 AM
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Here are the latest sweeps I did.



to do compression sweeps by turning up the volume 3db and remeasure until the output quits increasing on the low end. Then post all of those measurements overlayed on one graph. This will tell you how much output you have to work with.
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