Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 889 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26641 of 30494 Old 10-14-2016, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ccssid123 View Post
So, as simple as my mind works, I figure, perhaps, another 12" would be that much better.
A general rule of thumb relative diminishing returns:

2 subs = 75% better than 1 sub*

3 subs = 25% better than 2 subs*

4 subs = 10% better than 3 subs*

(* in terms of 'perceived sound quality' across more locations in the room and using identical subs)
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post #26642 of 30494 Old 10-14-2016, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lairpost View Post
A general rule of thumb relative diminishing returns:



2 subs = 75% better than 1 sub*



3 subs = 25% better than 2 subs*



4 subs = 10% better than 3 subs*



(* in terms of 'perceived sound quality' across more locations in the room and using identical subs)


75% better with 2 than 1? Wow that's surprising. Didn't think it would be that drastic.
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post #26643 of 30494 Old 10-14-2016, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post
These are Ascend speakers? They don't look like the Sierra Towers, or at least they don't look like mine.

I'll give you that Ascend and Rythmik are a potent combo though!

Regards,

RTROSE
Oh no, those are not Sierra Towers for sure. I was referring only to the natural finish of the speakers. I'm right now debating between Ascend Sierra Towers with RAAL in Natural Bamboo and Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers in Curly Maple.





If by the time of upgrade I have saved enough $$ then I would definitely go with Salk Sound Veracity ST in Curly Maple with Expresso Walnut Baffle

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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
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post #26644 of 30494 Old 10-14-2016, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
75% better with 2 than 1? Wow that's surprising. Didn't think it would be that drastic.
It's an estimation. A lot depends on your particular space, a 2nd sub may improve response dramatically or modestly but it will certainly. If only a modest improvement with a 2nd, I would not consider a 3rd unless more headroom is needed/desired. 4 or more is for more output, mostly.
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post #26645 of 30494 Old 10-14-2016, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Oh no, those are not Sierra Towers for sure. I was referring only to the natural finish of the speakers. I'm right now debating between Ascend Sierra Towers with RAAL in Natural Bamboo and Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers in Curly Maple.





If by the time of upgrade I have saved enough $$ then I would definitely go with Salk Sound Veracity ST in Curly Maple with Expresso Walnut Baffle

SALK..Salk..salk....all the way
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post #26646 of 30494 Old 10-14-2016, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lairpost View Post
It's an estimation. A lot depends on your particular space, a 2nd sub may improve response dramatically or modestly but it will certainly. If only a modest improvement with a 2nd, I would not consider a 3rd unless more headroom is needed/desired. 4 or more is for more output, mostly.


Yes, I read a study (I believe it was conducted by Floyd Toole) on, among other things, the optimal number of subs. They used something like 69 subs in the study and concluded there's was virtually no benefit past 4.


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post #26647 of 30494 Old 10-14-2016, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Oh no, those are not Sierra Towers for sure. I was referring only to the natural finish of the speakers. I'm right now debating between Ascend Sierra Towers with RAAL in Natural Bamboo and Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers in Curly Maple.





If by the time of upgrade I have saved enough $$ then I would definitely go with Salk Sound Veracity ST in Curly Maple with Expresso Walnut Baffle

I think the curly maple/walnut combo is beautiful. I may be a bit biased as I did a small woodworking project which was for a fireplace tool holder. I used curly maple and walnut
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Regards, Ken (Retired)
9.1) Denon 4520CI; Samsung 55H8000 & BD-F7500; R&LRS/L/R SVS Ultra BS,
Ultra Center; FH & SS Polk; Rythmik F12; CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD (x2)
2.1 Ch.) Nakamichi RE-2, CDC-4A, CR7A, Denon 300F/Ortofon 2M Bronze;
ADS L1290(x2); PINNACLE BABYBOOMER SUB, PANAMAX MR4300
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post #26648 of 30494 Old 10-14-2016, 07:33 PM
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@enricoclaudio

Makes sense now thanks, and the first picture you posted in the series now THAT looks like my Ascend Towers, except for the color and the RAAL.

Those Salks are beautiful speakers, never heard them but if they sound anything like they look then they are golden.

Thanks for letting me know I'm not seeing things.

Regards,

RTROSE

My (slower than molasses) HT build here.
Now a Certified Carpet Counselor and Plumbing Counselor (Self given titles - pay no attention).
Enjoying my "almost done" theater.
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post #26649 of 30494 Old 10-14-2016, 08:02 PM
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If my memory serves me correctly I believe you can also
Order the Salk speakers in bamboo.

Anthem MRX-300-Outlaw Audio M2200
Rythmik F12 subs
Paradigm Signature S6,C1,S1
Harman Kardon DMC1000 (music)
Assassin HTPC (movies)
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post #26650 of 30494 Old 10-14-2016, 10:52 PM
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Our just build something similar.
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post #26651 of 30494 Old 10-15-2016, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Our just build something similar.
You built those?
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Ascend Sierra 2's (LCR & side surrounds) + Klipsch atmos modules. 5.1.4 setup
Marantz AV7703
NAD M25
Rythmik FV15HP
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post #26652 of 30494 Old 10-16-2016, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lairpost View Post
A general rule of thumb relative diminishing returns:

2 subs = 75% better than 1 sub*

3 subs = 25% better than 2 subs*

4 subs = 10% better than 3 subs*

(* in terms of 'perceived sound quality' across more locations in the room and using identical subs)
One caveat to this is that with 4 subs, you get more flexibility for symmetrical layouts, which can be really helpful for cancelling room modes and getting seat to seat consistency.

I agree that there are diminishing returns, but 3 subs can be a no-mans land.
One exception could be a layout where the odd sub is nearfield, so it can balance 2 subs in the front corners.
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post #26653 of 30494 Old 10-16-2016, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Oh no, those are not Sierra Towers for sure. I was referring only to the natural finish of the speakers. I'm right now debating between Ascend Sierra Towers with RAAL in Natural Bamboo and Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers in Curly Maple.
Those are gorgeous, although if I were shopping for speakers, I'd be all over the 215RTs or Catalyst 8Cs in the classifieds section. Since I know you'll be well equipped with subs and space may be tight, perhaps the Cat8s?
FS: Seaton Catalyst 8c L/C/R

Plenty of shootouts on file between older versions all these speakers, although both have been through iterations and refinement since then.
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post #26654 of 30494 Old 10-17-2016, 06:40 PM
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One caveat to this is that with 4 subs, you get more flexibility for symmetrical layouts, which can be really helpful for cancelling room modes and getting seat to seat consistency.
In addition with 4 subs you get greater overall in-room flatten frequency response. Here's Data-base.com measurements on 1-4 subs separate, identical subwoofers placed away from each other:

"It is easy to see that adding in the second subwoofer caused a gain larger than 6dB at the listening position in quite a few places – 12, 30, 40, 50 and 90Hz for example. Over some ranges output was actually lost (58-65Hz and 97-116Hz) most likely due to the phase relationship at those frequencies.

Looking at the gain seen from adding in the third subwoofer, note that again at 30Hz more than 6dB is gained and the system’s total radiation is not even doubling at this point by adding a third sub and at 80Hz we again see a slight loss.

By the time the fourth subwoofer is added in, the gain is between 2-4dB for the most part. However, note that the overall response has been flattened out and smoothed significantly, fitting within a 12dB window from 5-120Hz, where it was about an 18.5dB window before with much more overall variation."




In the example given above, the green trace is one subwoofer, red is two, blue is three and the black trace is all four of them operating at once.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=80
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SCG
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post #26655 of 30494 Old 10-18-2016, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Now I want speakers in natural finish Thinking on some Ascend Acoustic Sierra Towers with RAAL on Natural Bamboo finish!!

Eww...not a fan. Well maybe if the center and sub's matched.
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post #26656 of 30494 Old 10-18-2016, 05:43 AM
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Another Amazing setup!! This one is from Josh Atkinson. Salk Sound Veracity HT2-TL with a pair of F15HPs and lot of cool electronics!!!

Now this is Nice!!
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post #26657 of 30494 Old 10-18-2016, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Oh no, those are not Sierra Towers for sure. I was referring only to the natural finish of the speakers. I'm right now debating between Ascend Sierra Towers with RAAL in Natural Bamboo and Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers in Curly Maple.





If by the time of upgrade I have saved enough $$ then I would definitely go with Salk Sound Veracity ST in Curly Maple with Expresso Walnut Baffle



Had both songtowers and HT2-TL's. Not a bad thing you can say about Salk stuff.

To add something else to consider, Funk audio (which I've long felt had the best WAF of and ID manufacturer) can make passive towers that may be worth considering.

Last edited by madhuski; 10-18-2016 at 08:54 AM.
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post #26658 of 30494 Old 10-18-2016, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
Had both songtowers and HT2-TL's. Not a bad thing you can say about them.

To add something else to consider, Funk audio (which I've long felt had the best WAF of and ID manufacturer) can make passive towers that may be worth considering.
I'm pretty sure FA speakers are good speakers but I want to support our business partners (Ascend Acoustics and Salk Sound). Every time I have customers coming to audition our subwoofers at my place they also want to audition products from Salk Sound or Ascend Acoustics. My long term plan is to have full setups of Ascend Sierra speakers and Salk Sound Song or Veracity speakers in my place
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Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I'm pretty sure FA speakers are good speakers but I want to support our business partners (Ascend Acoustics and Salk Sound). Every time I have customers coming to audition our subwoofers at my place they also want to audition products from Salk Sound or Ascend Acoustics. My long term plan is to have full setups of Ascend Sierra speakers and Salk Sound Song or Veracity speakers in my place


If you had to pick one, which of Salk and Ascend makes or has better sounding speakers. Or if you don't want to pick one over the other (understandable), what would you say differentiates them?
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post #26660 of 30494 Old 10-18-2016, 10:14 AM
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If you had to pick one, which of Salk and Ascend makes or has better sounding speakers. Or if you don't want to pick one over the other (understandable), what would you say differentiates them?
Never had a chance to listen to Sierra Towers with RAAL or Salk Sound Veracity ST, so can't make any comment. I'm pretty sure both of them are very good sounding speakers, though.



Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I'm pretty sure FA speakers are good speakers but I want to support our business partners (Ascend Acoustics and Salk Sound). Every time I have customers coming to audition our subwoofers at my place they also want to audition products from Salk Sound or Ascend Acoustics. My long term plan is to have full setups of Ascend Sierra speakers and Salk Sound Song or Veracity speakers in my place
You really need a bigger place... Maybe that's the real goal?

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #26662 of 30494 Old 10-18-2016, 01:47 PM
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You really need a bigger place... Maybe that's the real goal?
I may move to a 2 bedrooms apt but only to have my office in the second bedroom. As for now I think I can get away with a Sierra 2 + Horizon Center with RAAL + Sierra Sat surrounds setup for my bedroom and Salk Sound Supercharged Songtower + Supercharged Songcenter + Supercharged Songurrounds setup in my living room. Then when I move to a bigger place with a bigger master bedroom I can have Sierra Towers with RAAL and move the Sierra 2s for surround duties



Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
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post #26663 of 30494 Old 10-18-2016, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I may move to a 2 bedrooms apt but only to have my office in the second bedroom. As for now I think I can get away with a Sierra 2 + Horizon Center with RAAL + Sierra Sat surrounds setup for my bedroom and Salk Sound Supercharged Songtower + Supercharged Songcenter + Supercharged Songurrounds setup in my living room. Then when I move to a bigger place with a bigger master bedroom I can have Sierra Towers with RAAL and move the Sierra 2s for surround duties
Now that sounds like an amazing setup

Ascend Sierra 2's (LCR & side surrounds) + Klipsch atmos modules. 5.1.4 setup
Marantz AV7703
NAD M25
Rythmik FV15HP
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post #26664 of 30494 Old 10-18-2016, 06:11 PM
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I little bit out of topic but today I got an actualization of TIDAL Desktop and now gapless playback is supported Can anyone confirm this? I checked on my iMac and iPhone and both of them play gapless without any issue. My Oppo 105D still not supporting gapless playback for TIDAL, though.




Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio
Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
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post #26665 of 30494 Old 10-19-2016, 11:24 AM
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So, I decided to do comp sweeps based on the latest advice of 3dB increments, -12.0dBFS signal in REW, UMIK-1 gain of 0.0dB. I used low damping/extension.

My question is at what dB level is my sub compressing significantly? At 20Hz? and the 19Hz port tune?



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Current Setup REW FR measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha RX-A2070, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Sony SS-CS5 Surrounds, Cambridge S20 Rear Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1
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post #26666 of 30494 Old 10-19-2016, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
So, I decided to do comp sweeps based on the latest advice of 3dB increments, -12.0dBFS signal in REW, UMIK-1 gain of 0.0dB. I used low damping/extension.

My question is at what dB level is my sub compressing significantly? At 20Hz? and the 19Hz port tune?



Looks like it is not compressing at all at all the levels you ran. If I understand correctly, compression starts when the most recent run is not significantly higher than the run before it at any of the lower frequencies. Is this wrong?
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post #26667 of 30494 Old 10-19-2016, 11:50 AM
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^^^

I wouldn't call that significant compression....keep going with the MV (if you dare)!!
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post #26668 of 30494 Old 10-19-2016, 11:53 AM
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Looks like it is not compressing at all at all the levels you ran. If I understand correctly, compression starts when the most recent run is not significantly higher than the run before it at any of the lower frequencies. Is this wrong?
That is true, no signs yet probably could start to see it after your next few passes... keep raising the bar! how far is your measurement position?

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post #26669 of 30494 Old 10-19-2016, 12:01 PM
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^^^

There is some very slight compression on the very low end of the very top sweep...but hardly anything significant.
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post #26670 of 30494 Old 10-19-2016, 12:02 PM
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Looks like no compression from 30 HZ and up. It happens that the SPL at 40 Hz is the same as 19 Hz and 20 Hz at low levels, so just compare those frequencies. That says uncompressed down to port tune at 91.7, -0.5 dB at 94.5, -1.0 dB at 97.1, -1.5 dB at 99.6 dB and -2.0 dB at 101.9 dB. Pretty impressive.
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