Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 916 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #27451 of 27858 Old 01-04-2017, 08:27 AM
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Check the REW 101 guide to see how to measure pre-out voltage via REW and digital multimeter.

What is 65 in relative dB scale?
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Yeah, you should change the volume SCALE from Absolute to Relative so that we are all talking the same language.

See this page of your manual.
Just checked it's -15Db. I suppose I could crank it to -10Db for special occasions but I doubt it.

What test scenes would I use for an SPL?
Probably safe from clipping the AVR pre-outs and the MiniDSP inputs then. Just keep the avr sw trims in the negative range to be safe regarding the MiniDSP 0.9V RMS input limits. Maybe around -5dB or a bit lower.
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post #27452 of 27858 Old 01-04-2017, 08:32 AM
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Probably safe from clipping the AVR pre-outs and the MiniDSP inputs then. Just keep the avr sw trims in the negative range to be safe regarding the MiniDSP 0.9V RMS input limits. Maybe around -5dB or a bit lower.
So SW trims around -5 on the AVR and then what on the sw gain?

For clarity, hypothetically speaking, if my MV is -15Db and there was no-eq'ing then I'd have 15Db gain to achieve reference 0Db before clipping.

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post #27453 of 27858 Old 01-04-2017, 08:46 AM
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What about the new Audyssey app?

BTW, do any of those Dirac AVRs sell near the $800 Denon AVR-X3300W?
I guess not.
The 390 is a bit over $2k discounted, but it's an Atmos 7.1.4 one with Dirac.
For 7.2 with Dirac, you may be able to find a good deal on an XMC-1.
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post #27454 of 27858 Old 01-04-2017, 08:53 AM
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Probably safe from clipping the AVR pre-outs and the MiniDSP inputs then. Just keep the avr sw trims in the negative range to be safe regarding the MiniDSP 0.9V RMS input limits. Maybe around -5dB or a bit lower.
So SW trims around -5 on the AVR and then what on the sw gain?

For clarity, hypothetically speaking, if my MV is -15Db and there was no-eq'ing then I'd have 15Db gain to achieve reference 0Db before clipping.
As always, the combination of sw trim in AVR and sw gain knob position on sub must produce the desired level of sw output relative to your main speakers.

You usually adjust the sw gain during the Audyssey sw level check to desired spl while keeping the sw trim where you want it. Adjusting the gain knob on sub after Audyssey is not recommended by me since it is less precise and you can easily overdo it.

As to what sw trim to aim for you can measure sub pre-out voltage on AVR with REW and digital multimeter or assume it is around -5dB or so. You could see if anyone with your AVR has already done this.
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post #27455 of 27858 Old 01-04-2017, 09:22 AM
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What about the new Audyssey app?

BTW, do any of those Dirac AVRs sell near the $800 Denon AVR-X3300W?
I guess not.
The 390 is a bit over $2k discounted, but it's an Atmos 7.1.4 one with Dirac.
For 7.2 with Dirac, you may be able to find a good deal on an XMC-1.
That's a preamp processor, so I guess Dirac is out of my budget. I don't think I'd have an issue with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, especially considering what I have now.


I would like to know more about the Audyssey app...
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post #27456 of 27858 Old 01-04-2017, 09:27 AM
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Probably safe from clipping the AVR pre-outs and the MiniDSP inputs then. Just keep the avr sw trims in the negative range to be safe regarding the MiniDSP 0.9V RMS input limits. Maybe around -5dB or a bit lower.
So SW trims around -5 on the AVR and then what on the sw gain?

For clarity, hypothetically speaking, if my MV is -15Db and there was no-eq'ing then I'd have 15Db gain to achieve reference 0Db before clipping.
As always, the combination of sw trim in AVR and sw gain knob position on sub must produce the desired level of sw output relative to your main speakers.

You usually adjust the sw gain during the Audyssey sw level check to desired spl while keeping the sw trim where you want it. Adjusting the gain knob on sub after Audyssey is not recommended by me since it is less precise and you can easily overdo it.

As to what sw trim to aim for you can measure sub pre-out voltage on AVR with REW and digital multimeter or assume it is around -5dB or so. You could see if anyone with your AVR has already done this
.
An easy way to do this is set sub gain knob during Audyssey to whatever position gets the sw trim to be set by Audyssey around -11dB. Then after Audyssey you can crank up sw trim in AVR 6dB or more without having to worry much about clipping the MiniDSP. As long as you don't go past -10MV, you should be more than ok.
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post #27457 of 27858 Old 01-04-2017, 09:37 AM
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So SW trims around -5 on the AVR and then what on the sw gain?

For clarity, hypothetically speaking, if my MV is -15Db and there was no-eq'ing then I'd have 15Db gain to achieve reference 0Db before clipping.
Set the sub's gain to whatever is needed to achieve -5 dB sub trim setting on the AVR when it does its calibration.

Note it is dB, not Db, for decibel; the "B" is capitalized because it is derived from a name (Alexander Graham Bell). That is normal for units.

If your master volume is at -15 dB then you'd have 15 dB of headroom before reaching 0 dB. Where the system clips I could not say; I would guess the AVR will have headroom over 0 dB but everything from source to ears gets into play when discussing clipping (i.e. could happen anywhere in the chain -- or not!)

HTH - Don

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post #27458 of 27858 Old 01-04-2017, 10:11 AM
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Is is normal that the 2nd try here sounds a lot better?


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UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings
Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Cambridge S20 Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4, Xbox One, Xfinity X1 (CI CXD01ANI)
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post #27459 of 27858 Old 01-04-2017, 11:12 AM
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Yes, that would definitely benefit from EQ, as would almost any real room.


I did some EQ with the Minidsp 2x4, it came out really well for that region. i need a better AVR with EQ for the speakers.


Same here... I can do whatever I want with the MiniDSP sub PEQ but I need speaker EQ that is both very effective and transparent in terms of not harming subjective SQ.

Right now the Denon 3300 looks pretty appealing though I wonder what else in that price range might be even better
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post #27460 of 27858 Old 01-04-2017, 04:14 PM
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I don't know about that. I wouldn't want to be playing with manual filters if I could get a better result fully automatically. I've read reviews of even the flagship Yamaha RX-A3060 and some reviewers turn YPAO off in favor of a manual calibration but Denon and Marantz AVRs with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 reviews typically leave Audyssey on as it is very effective.

With the new Audyssey app, I think target curves can be tweaked. Though personally I like a flat response for my speakers and sub, just with the sub 6dB hot.
Weve been reading different reviews.
Only a moron would turn YPAO off because it eqs all of your speakers. However some do tweak the YPAO sub eq settings manually to achieve better results. Something you cannot do with Audyssey, except possibly with the new app.
In any case what you have done to eq the sub with REW is the best way.
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post #27461 of 27858 Old 01-04-2017, 06:46 PM
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That's a preamp processor, so I guess Dirac is out of my budget. I don't think I'd have an issue with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, especially considering what I have now.


I would like to know more about the Audyssey app...
I'd be curious to hear about the Audyssey app, if you find anything out.

I'm actually running the Dirac Live software on my HTPC, along with JRiver. That turned out to be a great sounding and cost effective approach, although it limits me to 7.1 and only gives me Dirac for the PC as a source.

My next stop will be something with Dirac + Atmos, which probably means a receiver or processor.
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post #27462 of 27858 Old 01-05-2017, 07:50 AM
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I did some EQ with the Minidsp 2x4, it came out really well for that region. i need a better AVR with EQ for the speakers.




what does a full range CC+sub sweep look like with 1/6 smoothing? I'm curious how much hotter the low end of your sub is vs. the midrange of the CC (500Hz to 2kHz region, centered at 1kHz)

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post #27463 of 27858 Old 01-05-2017, 11:07 AM
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@MrGrey , a few tips for tracking down that null at 175hz...

You might not be able to do anything about it, in which case you shouldn't worry.
It's pretty typical.

I would want to look into it, just in case, though.

A few things to try...

Does it go away when you turn the sub off?

If so, it's a phase cancellation with the sub.
Experiment with the overall phase/time alignment, and crossover slopes (if your receiver has that option).
Hopefully it's something you can dial out.

If it doesn't go away when you turn the sub off, the cancellation is caused by an early reflection from you mains. It could be front wall, side wall, ceiling, and/or floor.
A good way to determine which surface is causing the reflection is to measure with different mic and speaker placements.
For example, if it goes away when your mic is on the floor, it may be a floor reflection.

These kinds of reflection can be difficult to fix, particularly at lower frequencies, but sometimes you can do it with speaker placement and/or acoustic panels, once you know the cause.
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post #27464 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 10:58 AM
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XLR3 Amp

How does the XLR3 amp work? If I have a 2 channel sub connection and the LFE connection from the AVR how does the amp know which signal to use?
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post #27465 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 01:53 PM
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How does the XLR3 amp work? If I have a 2 channel sub connection and the LFE connection from the AVR how does the amp know which signal to use?
You can use both inputs but with different components, like stereo pre amp or integrated and receiver. If you have only one source then the subwoofer will play both signals.



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post #27466 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 02:49 PM
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You can use both inputs but with different components, like stereo pre amp or integrated and receiver. If you have only one source then the subwoofer will play both signals.


How does the amp know which one to play?
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post #27467 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 03:02 PM
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I don't know about that. I wouldn't want to be playing with manual filters if I could get a better result fully automatically. I've read reviews of even the flagship Yamaha RX-A3060 and some reviewers turn YPAO off in favor of a manual calibration but Denon and Marantz AVRs with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 reviews typically leave Audyssey on as it is very effective.

With the new Audyssey app, I think target curves can be tweaked. Though personally I like a flat response for my speakers and sub, just with the sub 6dB hot.
I haven't touched XT32 yet but didn't care at all for what normal Audyssey did on my last system. Turned everything way way down so that the volume sounded super weak and had to be turned up too high to compensate. I did like it for dialing in speaker distances, though.

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post #27468 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 03:28 PM
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I haven't touched XT32 yet but didn't care at all for what normal Audyssey did on my last system. Turned everything way way down so that the volume sounded super weak and had to be turned up too high to compensate. I did like it for dialing in speaker distances, though.
Except for the fact that Audyssey pretty much always sets the sub trim too low for me, I have been exceedingly happy with what it has done for my room.

What makes you say you had to turn the volume up "too high"? What is "too high"??
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post #27469 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 03:39 PM
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It just didn't make sense to me. Why have speakers turned -6 or -8 Db? Isn't a lot of it about level matching? So if my mains are turned to -8 and the center to -6 for example, why couldn't I just have the mains at -2 and the center at zero? I know those may not be exactly the same thing, but I'd want as little in the way of the speakers as possible. And yes the sub was turned to -12 which apparently was the maximum it could possibly reduce it. It seemed that when I tried their settings I had to compensate with the volume knob and then the sound still felt "thin" compared to what I had before.

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Receiver: Integra DTR-70.4
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post #27470 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 03:43 PM
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I bypass audyssey on my fronts, and tweaked the subs for a +10 increase. its pretty good to my ears. after listening to some focal 3's, i need a lil midbass increase, but I dont know how to tweak that. I miss bass/mid/treble controls lol.
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post #27471 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 04:13 PM
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It just didn't make sense to me. Why have speakers turned -6 or -8 Db? Isn't a lot of it about level matching? So if my mains are turned to -8 and the center to -6 for example, why couldn't I just have the mains at -2 and the center at zero? I know those may not be exactly the same thing, but I'd want as little in the way of the speakers as possible. And yes the sub was turned to -12 which apparently was the maximum it could possibly reduce it. It seemed that when I tried their settings I had to compensate with the volume knob and then the sound still felt "thin" compared to what I had before.
Audyssey attempts to set all speaker trim levels so that each speaker will produce 75dB at the MLP (using -30dBfs full-band pink noise). After that, your system is calibrated to "Reference" (THX Reference Level). What that means is that with your master volume (MV) at "0" your system (if capable) will reproduce an 85dB average with 105dB peaks during movies (95dB ave/115dB peaks for the LFE channel/subs). This is meant to replicate what you would hear in an actual theater. However, in our much-smaller-than-a-theater rooms, Reference level can seem VERY loud. Most people rarely listen at Reference.

In order to get all speakers to produce Reference Level at the MLP, Audyssey must adjust each speaker individually depending on its sensitivity and its unique interaction with your particular room. Hence, the term Room Correction Software. This is where the varying speaker trim levels can come from.

If the sub trim came back at -12 that means the sub gain needed to be reduced...by how much? You don't know. Probably why, in your experience, it sounded "thin".


Sorry...that was kind of long, but it's a Friday afternoon at work and I'm trying to burn the clock to 5:00pm.
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post #27472 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 04:14 PM
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I bypass audyssey on my fronts, and tweaked the subs for a +10 increase. its pretty good to my ears. after listening to some focal 3's, i need a lil midbass increase, but I dont know how to tweak that. I miss bass/mid/treble controls lol.
You can try a higher crossover. That can sometimes help the mid-bass.
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post #27473 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 04:20 PM
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Sorry...that was kind of long, but it's a Friday afternoon at work and I'm trying to burn the clock to 5:00pm.
No worries that's what I'm here for, to learn more about this kind of thing. I guess the main benefits of Audyssey as I saw them were for smoother bass curves and for getting the distances dialed in. Once I get a sub I'll see what XT32 is made of in my system.

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post #27474 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 04:23 PM
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Why have speakers turned -6 or -8 Db? Isn't a lot of it about level matching? So if my mains are turned to -8 and the center to -6 for example, why couldn't I just have the mains at -2 and the center at zero?
Based on your speakers sensitivity and where they sit in your room, Audyssey level matches each of your speaker to the MLP (1st mic calibration) such that they all play at the same loudness reference level (75db) when reaching your main seat. Changing these values makes your speakers not playing at the calibrated reference level. I have 7 of the exact same speakers and almost all of them has different levels set by my Denon AVR. You might need to start reading that Audyssey thread here at Avs to have a better understanding of Audyssey.

Edit: Alan beats me to it.

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post #27475 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 04:23 PM
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No worries that's what I'm here for, to learn more about this kind of thing. I guess the main benefits of Audyssey as I saw them were for smoother bass curves and for getting the distances dialed in. Once I get a sub I'll see what XT32 is made of in my system.
While you're waiting, you might want to check out the Audyssey 101 & FAQ linked in my sig.
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Anybody know how long the LVX12 will be on sale?Im going to be buying a sub around February 1st and im praying its still on sale for $699 when i have the money.Knowing my luck it wont be.
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post #27477 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 09:43 PM
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Anybody know how long the LVX12 will be on sale?Im going to be buying a sub around February 1st and im praying its still on sale for $699 when i have the money.Knowing my luck it wont be.
The LVX12 sale should last until we move to the new warehouse, which is planned for Jan 25th. But I'm pretty sure we can honor the sale price for you because you already showed the intention to buy it. Just send me an email to tech@rythmikaudio.com so I remember this deal
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Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL & Sierra 2s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Marantz SR7008 | Parasound Halo P5 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Sony HW40ES |
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Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
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post #27478 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
The LVX12 sale should last until we move to the new warehouse, which is planned for Jan 25th. But I'm pretty sure we can honor the sale price for you because you already showed the intention to buy it. Just send me an email to tech@rythmikaudio.com so I remember this deal
Wow,thanks alot man.I will email you first thing tomorrow morning.
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post #27479 of 27858 Old 01-06-2017, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBucketOfTruth View Post
I haven't touched XT32 yet but didn't care at all for what normal Audyssey did on my last system. Turned everything way way down so that the volume sounded super weak and had to be turned up too high to compensate. I did like it for dialing in speaker distances, though.
XT32 was a big step forward from previous versions. Worth a try.

You can dial up all the levels as long as you keep them the same relative to each other.
It doesn't really matter if the reference 0db isn't numerically accurate.
You'll tune the volume to the level that you want, regardless of what number is displayed.
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post #27480 of 27858 Old 01-07-2017, 12:27 PM
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Not enough heat in with dual LVX 12's for 2400 cu ft

Hi All,

I feel like I should be getting more punch from my LVX12's in a 2400 cu ft room. I ran REW and was able to get a flat response with no nulls via Audyssey

Curious how much hotter I can run these and if there's a way to test it with REW. It would be nice to be able to see this in REW instead of the standard language of increase the SW Trim by 2dB to 5dB.

My MV is at most -15dB, 12 o'clock SW gain gets me 78dB so it's good for calibration, Audyssey sets the SW trim to -6dB. I want to test how hot I can run these in real world conditions. The audyssey subEQ doesn't allow my to see the gain it applies.

I have a thread here which better explains it: Demonstrating running hot with REW

I have a miniDSP but I'm leaving it out of the equation until I get this worked out.

Thanks,
Joe

Marantz 7010 for 7.2.4
2 x Paradigm Prestige 75F's
1 x Paradigm Prestige 45C
8 x Paradigm CI Pro P65-R's
Sub 2 x Rythmik LVX12's
TV: LG 65B6
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