Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 934 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #27991 of 30518 Old 02-20-2017, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
Or a Denon. I'm running my pair of LVX12s off of an old (two years is a lifetime in consumer electronics) Denon AVR-X4000. It's got Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and Audyssey Sub EQ HT, both of which I wanted. Does an excellent job with my 5.2 system (the rest are Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2s and 1s). The important thing here is that it handles the two subs as individual speakers, so it nails the measured distances, phase corrections, and levels for you. Makes life a little simpler and more accurate, that does. And when you bump up the subs' levels, you do both subs individually.

In the current model year the bottom level Denon that can handle two subs independently is I think the AVR-x3300 (which is around $500 less than an X-4300 which doesn't seem to bring that much more to the party IMHO).

If you want to go that way, the thing to do is bookmark this page:

https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X33.../dp/B01HL8KYAY

and look at it everyday waiting for the end of model year sales. Sometime toward the end of the summer (?) the new models will hit and Amazon will want to move the old stock out to make room. They sold me my x4000 that they had been listing for $1450 or so for $500. Basically, for cost. It was a great deal. You just have to be patient, then you have to pounce (they sell out very quickly, usually a day or two). And yes, I did say "be patient" on an AVS Forum.

If you can wait six months, that would pay for your second LVX12 right there. Yes that's twisted logic, but you can't blame a guy for trying!
Thanks for the response. Since I'm looking to buy a house around August/September, I'll try to hold off on either a sub or new AVR, unless the price is too good to pass up. I certainly do plan on waiting until the new models come out, so this year and previous go down in price. I want 4K compatibility. I do like that the Denon has several pre outs in case I feel the need for an external amp. I doubt I'll ever get a huge Dolby Atmos set up. I just want great sound. If I have a dedicated theater room, I plan on adding some modifications to help with sound.

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post #27992 of 30518 Old 02-20-2017, 02:00 PM
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I want 4K compatibility.
Then you probably want full HCDP 2.2 support (4k TV and AVR must both support it), which in the Denon line limits you to the current Xx300 line (and the 2018 stuff that shows up this summer). If I were going 4k any time soon I would be looking seriously at that AVR-X3300 because it gives you 7.2 (I'm probably never going to go beyond a 7.2 system), and the latest versions of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and Audyssey Sub EQ HT, and full HCDP 2.2. Checks all my boxes. But it might not check all of yours; YMMV.
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post #27993 of 30518 Old 02-20-2017, 02:21 PM
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so when I decide to buy another sub to go with my rythmik 15hp, should I buy another 15hp or a newer model...havent thought about sizes yet, but I can most likely make any size work. just wondering what rythmik recommends? plus all the forum peeps too

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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post #27994 of 30518 Old 02-20-2017, 02:54 PM
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so when I decide to buy another sub to go with my rythmik 15hp, should I buy another 15hp or a newer model...havent thought about sizes yet, but I can most likely make any size work. just wondering what rythmik recommends? plus all the forum peeps too
The first thing i though about is will your FV15HP be able to keep up with the more powerful models? Especially the new triple port dual driver Rythmik.

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post #27995 of 30518 Old 02-20-2017, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
Or a Denon.

and look at it everyday waiting for the end of model year sales. Sometime toward the end of the summer (?) the new models will hit and Amazon will want to move the old stock out to make room. They sold me my x4000 that they had been listing for $1450 or so for $500. Basically, for cost. It was a great deal. You just have to be patient, then you have to pounce (they sell out very quickly, usually a day or two). And yes, I did say "be patient" on an AVS Forum.

If you can wait six months, that would pay for your second LVX12 right there. Yes that's twisted logic, but you can't blame a guy for trying!
Good idea. One day my Denon 4520CI was selling for $2,499 and at 3AM I saw Best Buy pop up with a price of $999. Got up in the morning and headed off to BB. I checked it out in the Magnolia section which still had the $2,499 price tag and mentioned to the sales rep that BB was selling it for $999, although it was not in stock and I would have to wait on delivery. The guy checked and said he had 1 in stock and would match the BB price, drove off with it with a smile on my face as there was NO way I could have spent $2,499 on an AVR at that time

New model transition time can get you some nice prices if you don't have to have the "latest and greatest"
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post #27996 of 30518 Old 02-20-2017, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
Then you probably want full HCDP 2.2 support (4k TV and AVR must both support it), which in the Denon line limits you to the current Xx300 line (and the 2018 stuff that shows up this summer). If I were going 4k any time soon I would be looking seriously at that AVR-X3300 because it gives you 7.2 (I'm probably never going to go beyond a 7.2 system), and the latest versions of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and Audyssey Sub EQ HT, and full HCDP 2.2. Checks all my boxes. But it might not check all of yours; YMMV.
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Good idea. One day my Denon 4520CI was selling for $2,499 and at 3AM I saw Best Buy pop up with a price of $999. Got up in the morning and headed off to BB. I checked it out in the Magnolia section which still had the $2,499 price tag and mentioned to the sales rep that BB was selling it for $999, although it was not in stock and I would have to wait on delivery. The guy checked and said he had 1 in stock and would match the BB price, drove off with it with a smile on my face as there was NO way I could have spent $2,499 on an AVR at that time

New model transition time can get you some nice prices if you don't have to have the "latest and greatest"
I'm done with Audyssey. I don't like it at all. I'm trying right now Dirac Live (free trial) and it's another story. I'm just waiting for the new XMC-2 Gen 3 to come out to jump on the XMC wagon.
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Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
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post #27997 of 30518 Old 02-20-2017, 06:06 PM
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I'm done with Audyssey. I don't like it at all. I'm trying right now Dirac Live (free trial) and it's another story. I'm just waiting for the new XMC-2 Gen 3 to come out to jump on the XMC wagon.
I am also considering Dirac. How do you like Dirac Live trial and how does it compare to X32?
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post #27998 of 30518 Old 02-20-2017, 07:48 PM
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I am also considering Dirac. How do you like Dirac Live trial and how does it compare to X32?
As for Dirac Live, just the fact that you can tailor the response curve to your taste is a huge improvement over Audyssey. I can live with Audyssey for movies, but for music is just awful. It's too heavy compressed and processed for music. Dirac Live is more natural. If I do an A/B test between Dirac Live and Audyssey, Dirac Live sounds more like there is no processing, very similar to the sound I get from my Parasound Halo P5 + Oppo 105D combo.
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Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Bluesound Node 2 | Sony HW40ES |
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post #27999 of 30518 Old 02-21-2017, 05:42 AM
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FV18/FV25 update


We already have the driver and enclosure here in US. We are waiting for the amplifiers. It should take no more than 3 weeks from now. The schedule got pushed out quite a bit. But that is all related to lead time issue, not redesign.
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post #28000 of 30518 Old 02-21-2017, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
As for Dirac Live, just the fact that you can tailor the response curve to your taste is a huge improvement over Audyssey. I can live with Audyssey for movies, but for music is just awful. It's too heavy compressed and processed for music. Dirac Live is more natural. If I do an A/B test between Dirac Live and Audyssey, Dirac Live sounds more like there is no processing, very similar to the sound I get from my Parasound Halo P5 + Oppo 105D combo.
I'd even go further and say that Dirac sounds less "processed" than using no DSP. It's impressive to be able to combine that with the ability to tune the curve. My past attempts at EQ had always sounded more processed, so I often ended up preferring no EQ (except for bass.) Your results depend a lot on how you configure it, though. I wasn't crazy about the default curve.
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post #28001 of 30518 Old 02-21-2017, 07:43 AM
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I'm done with Audyssey. I don't like it at all. I'm trying right now Dirac Live (free trial) and it's another story. I'm just waiting for the new XMC-2 Gen 3 to come out to jump on the XMC wagon.
That "free trial" was expensive for me. No way I could go back.
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post #28002 of 30518 Old 02-21-2017, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
Then you probably want full HCDP 2.2 support (4k TV and AVR must both support it), which in the Denon line limits you to the current Xx300 line (and the 2018 stuff that shows up this summer). If I were going 4k any time soon I would be looking seriously at that AVR-X3300 because it gives you 7.2 (I'm probably never going to go beyond a 7.2 system), and the latest versions of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and Audyssey Sub EQ HT, and full HCDP 2.2. Checks all my boxes. But it might not check all of yours; YMMV.
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Good idea. One day my Denon 4520CI was selling for $2,499 and at 3AM I saw Best Buy pop up with a price of $999. Got up in the morning and headed off to BB. I checked it out in the Magnolia section which still had the $2,499 price tag and mentioned to the sales rep that BB was selling it for $999, although it was not in stock and I would have to wait on delivery. The guy checked and said he had 1 in stock and would match the BB price, drove off with it with a smile on my face as there was NO way I could have spent $2,499 on an AVR at that time

New model transition time can get you some nice prices if you don't have to have the "latest and greatest"
I'm done with Audyssey. I don't like it at all. I'm trying right now Dirac Live (free trial) and it's another story. I'm just waiting for the new XMC-2 Gen 3 to come out to jump on the XMC wagon.
I've heard good things about Anthem and their ARC with the AVM 60
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post #28003 of 30518 Old 02-21-2017, 08:50 AM
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I'm done with Audyssey. I don't like it at all.
And I like it. Quite a lot.

Interesting that we both like the same speakers. Hmmm....

Well, this isn't surprising. People like what people like. What irritates one person another person doesn't even notice.

I have no doubt at all that Audyssey does things that drive people wild. I have a good friend who can't listen to it at all. And, for what he wants, what he values, he's absolutely correct. But then again, he can't listen to subwoofers either, even Rythmik. And he's correct about that too, for what he wants.

I have no doubt that it's possible that Dirac is a better system. I'm absolutely sure that it's a different system with its own strengths and weaknesses. But my question is, where's the biggest bang for the buck? And for me that's been Denon AVRs and Audyssey for the last few years.
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post #28004 of 30518 Old 02-21-2017, 09:25 AM
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And I like it. Quite a lot.

Interesting that we both like the same speakers. Hmmm....

Well, this isn't surprising. People like what people like. What irritates one person another person doesn't even notice.

I have no doubt at all that Audyssey does things that drive people wild. I have a good friend who can't listen to it at all. And, for what he wants, what he values, he's absolutely correct. But then again, he can't listen to subwoofers either, even Rythmik. And he's correct about that too, for what he wants.

I have no doubt that it's possible that Dirac is a better system. I'm absolutely sure that it's a different system with its own strengths and weaknesses. But my question is, where's the biggest bang for the buck? And for me that's been Denon AVRs and Audyssey for the last few years.
Agreed. I just got back from the Kansas City Crawl, and got to check out a lot of VERY nice systems. I was really surprised by how different all the rooms sounded from each other.

I guess I was expecting good equipment carefully calibrated by enthusiasts to sound more alike.

Not everyone feels the same way about Dirac as I do. I'd definitely recommend for anyone to try the free trial before investing their money.
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post #28005 of 30518 Old 02-21-2017, 09:36 AM
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I too am amzed and how different speakers sound from each other in certain areas. I listened to some 20k speakers and the lead guitar was front and cent and the string plucks were amazing and then I listened to some 60k speakers and the same song was presented with less dynamic and 5 feet or so behind the 20k speaker...equipment, speaker position, room, who knows...the salesman loved the 60k and I loved the 20k speakers (go figure)...but they didnt come close to sounding the same... the 2 brands were focal and sonus fabre.

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post #28006 of 30518 Old 02-21-2017, 09:53 AM
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I too am amzed and how different speakers sound from each other in certain areas. I listened to some 20k speakers and the lead guitar was front and cent and the string plucks were amazing and then I listened to some 60k speakers and the same song was presented with less dynamic and 5 feet or so behind the 20k speaker...equipment, speaker position, room, who knows...the salesman loved the 60k and I loved the 20k speakers (go figure)...but they didnt come close to sounding the same... the 2 brands were focal and sonus fabre.
I used to have some Sonus Faber Amatis. I loved them at my previous house, but hated them at my current house. So I sold them and got some JTR 212s. I'm much happier, now.

I think the deal with the JTRs is that they have loads of output capability and they play clean with extended frequency response. Beyond that, I can use Dirac to make them sound exactly how I like in my room.

Speakers sound so different in different rooms that it's a lottery that one that sounds great in the store will also sound great in your home (especially without EQ.)

BTW, with the KC Crawl, in some cases it was the same model of speakers that sounded totally different.
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post #28007 of 30518 Old 02-21-2017, 10:17 AM
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with todays subs and technology, getting some really loud, dynamic, efficient, and usually less expensive speakers can make alot of sense. Im lucky Im at the borderline of just needing enough and not going overboard. 115db in a very large space is almost too loud for me 99% of the time.

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post #28008 of 30518 Old 02-21-2017, 09:33 PM
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Hi guys, just wanted introduce myself over here in the Rythmik club.
Used to have (2) RA Echo 18 XL's, replacing them with (2) F25s which are on the way as we speak. Hoping to hear the servo difference!
I'll share my impressions.

Btw, been reading the discussion regarding Dirac and Audyssey. Gotta say, for me Dirac is so far and above Audyssey XT. I've never heard XT32, in fairness. But Dirac is incredibly awesome. I love being able to adjust the window in which Dirac applies correction as well.. I've found it to sound better if I don't touch the frequencies above 10k in my room.
Also, you can get into Dirac pretty cheaply, just a Minidsp nanoavr DL.

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I too am amzed and how different speakers sound from each other in certain areas. I listened to some 20k speakers and the lead guitar was front and cent and the string plucks were amazing and then I listened to some 60k speakers and the same song was presented with less dynamic and 5 feet or so behind the 20k speaker...equipment, speaker position, room, who knows...the salesman loved the 60k and I loved the 20k speakers (go figure)...but they didnt come close to sounding the same... the 2 brands were focal and sonus fabre.
The room is just so significant. I mean when you have speakers that measure say +/- 1.5db and one room makes the response of the one creates a peak +10db at 200hz and the other one creates a null of -10db at 500hz, they're going to sound a whole lot different. And only a 10db difference in certain frequencies is rather unlikely between one room versus another.

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post #28010 of 30518 Old 02-22-2017, 01:26 AM
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I'd even go further and say that Dirac sounds less "processed" than using no DSP. It's impressive to be able to combine that with the ability to tune the curve. My past attempts at EQ had always sounded more processed, so I often ended up preferring no EQ (except for bass.) Your results depend a lot on how you configure it, though. I wasn't crazy about the default curve.
Dirac is a fundamentally better technology than XT32 as it actually works to improve Impulse Response and works to improve time coherence which is waaaaay more perceptible than what Audessey does. MQA is actually doing a similar type of correction except it's focused on correcting the time coherence of the audio files themselves as well the dac chain. I would imagine MQA through a Dirac system is one of the best possible ways to hear music right now (though I totally get why music industry people don't like MQA).

Regardless, there is a reason all these companies with their 100k speakers demo them with Dirac in the chain. I too am waiting on XMC2 or RMC1 for my Dirac fix. I'm super interested to see who does the first Unison implementation. I feel like that has the potentially to be massively gamechanging, especially for people with the crazy systems with tons of speakers and subs, since at least as I understand it, the more drivers unison can control, the better it SHOULD work.
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post #28011 of 30518 Old 02-22-2017, 06:23 AM
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Dirac is a fundamentally better technology than XT32 as it actually works to improve Impulse Response and works to improve time coherence which is waaaaay more perceptible than what Audessey does. MQA is actually doing a similar type of correction except it's focused on correcting the time coherence of the audio files themselves as well the dac chain. I would imagine MQA through a Dirac system is one of the best possible ways to hear music right now (though I totally get why music industry people don't like MQA).

Regardless, there is a reason all these companies with their 100k speakers demo them with Dirac in the chain. I too am waiting on XMC2 or RMC1 for my Dirac fix. I'm super interested to see who does the first Unison implementation. I feel like that has the potentially to be massively gamechanging, especially for people with the crazy systems with tons of speakers and subs, since at least as I understand it, the more drivers unison can control, the better it SHOULD work.
MQA is a lossy compressed format for hi-res audio. I'd expect the audible benefits to be on the border between marginal and non-existent, since that's where uncompressed hi-res audio resides. It is not possible for a compressed format to be better than the uncompressed data. Considering modern storage and bandwidth can handle lossless, it's hard to get excited about a new lossy compression format, especially one without much support.

EQ and room correction, on the other hand, are plainly audible. Not in the same league. The time domain correction that Dirac does is not in the same league as the frequency domain correction it does. Still, I find it to be worthwhile.

While hi-res audio is worthwhile for mastering to avoid error accumulation, I don't consider it to be worthwhile for distribution. I'd be MUCH more excited about more multi-channel audio. Good multi-channel audio is awesome. I'd prefer uncompressed, but I'll take multi-channel compressed over stereo uncompressed any day.

On a related note, using any room correction system, even Audyssey, should cancel out subtle differences you hear between electronics (amps, pre-amps, DACs, etc.). So, I'd prioritize good room correction over "good sounding" electronics.

Dirac Unison sounds promising, but they seem to be having trouble bringing it to market in a consumer product. It has been stuck as vaporware for a long time. I suspect that in addition to heavy processing requirements, they may have trouble getting reliable results from it without oversight from a Dirac engineer. Also, at one point they mentioned it required an impractical number of measurements (hundreds). Hopefully they get this stuff sorted out someday. I wouldn't count on it for the RNC-1, though.
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post #28012 of 30518 Old 02-22-2017, 06:30 AM
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Btw, been reading the discussion regarding Dirac and Audyssey. Gotta say, for me Dirac is so far and above Audyssey XT. I've never heard XT32, in fairness. But Dirac is incredibly awesome. I love being able to adjust the window in which Dirac applies correction as well.. I've found it to sound better if I don't touch the frequencies above 10k in my room.
Also, you can get into Dirac pretty cheaply, just a Minidsp nanoavr DL.
I've tried them all.
XT32 is a big improvement over XT (especially for bass) and Dirac is a big improvement over XT32 (especially for the ability to specify the target curve.)

I have also used XT32 Pro. That is marginally better than XT32. The benefits are that you can disable the misguided "midrange compensation" notch filter and you can select from a handful of target curves. Unfortunately, the Audyssey Pro user interface, bugs, and iteration process makes it impractical to tune the target curve.
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post #28013 of 30518 Old 02-22-2017, 08:35 AM
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Hi guys, just wanted introduce myself over here in the Rythmik club.
Used to have (2) RA Echo 18 XL's, replacing them with (2) F25s which are on the way as we speak. Hoping to hear the servo difference!
I'll share my impressions.

Btw, been reading the discussion regarding Dirac and Audyssey. Gotta say, for me Dirac is so far and above Audyssey XT. I've never heard XT32, in fairness. But Dirac is incredibly awesome. I love being able to adjust the window in which Dirac applies correction as well.. I've found it to sound better if I don't touch the frequencies above 10k in my room.
Also, you can get into Dirac pretty cheaply, just a Minidsp nanoavr DL.
Funny, I was looking at your system in your signature and thinking that you have a really nice system (lurking for an XMC-1 myself), except that you should get rid of your RA subs and try some Rythmiks! Then I read your post and that's what you did! I had a RA BPS-212 and switched to a Rythmik LVX12 and the difference was astounding. So much so that I'm preferring listening to music in my theater room with the sub now compared to my 2-channel system, and movies are awesome. I'm in the middle of watching Sicario and the soundtrack in that movie just sucks you in and adds so much intensity. I love it. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
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post #28014 of 30518 Old 02-22-2017, 09:40 AM
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I've tried them all.
XT32 is a big improvement over XT (especially for bass) and Dirac is a big improvement over XT32 (especially for the ability to specify the target curve.)

I have also used XT32 Pro. That is marginally better than XT32. The benefits are that you can disable the misguided "midrange compensation" notch filter and you can select from a handful of target curves. Unfortunately, the Audyssey Pro user interface, bugs, and iteration process makes it impractical to tune the target curve.
I've seen several on this page talk about how Dirac is better than Audyssey because of the ability to specify the target curve. I think that this is no longer an issue. Audyssey is supposed to have an App that will work with new AVRs and Processors with Audyssey to do just this. One can specify the target curve. I don't have an ETA on this, but first heard it last summer that was supposed to be ready around this time.

The one feature that I really want is the ability to not only specify a target curve, but several of them. Not for the reason of music vs. movies. I just want accurate for both. Accurate frequency response and impulse response (as much as possible), with perhaps a slight rise in the bass region. I want this feature to have different EQs depending on which row I sit in a two row home theater. Only Anthem, from the <$10,000 processors/AVRS seems to have this feature.

Or, instead of the slight rise in the bass region one feature I do like about Audyssey is that they have "Dynamic Eq" which will boost the bass and surround speakers so that they are audible when you are listening to things at less than reference volume. If it is at say -30 dB you might need a lot of boost for bass to be audible. If it is at -20 or -15 dB then you might need less of a boost. But, the important thing is that this is somehow taken into account. I know for me I don't always listen to things at the same volume, so this Audyssey feature is really attractive.

Maybe any of the three will be fine for me personally, as long as it has the features I want. I am planning for a sealed room and plan to do all that can possiblity be done to fix impulse response with room treatments and then the EQ will do the last little bit of fixing things as much as possible. It could be possible that we can hear a big difference between the different EQs if we are relying on them to do too much. There are definitely limitations to what any of them can do.
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I've seen several on this page talk about how Dirac is better than Audyssey because of the ability to specify the target curve. I think that this is no longer an issue. Audyssey is supposed to have an App that will work with new AVRs and Processors with Audyssey to do just this. One can specify the target curve. I don't have an ETA on this, but first heard it last summer that was supposed to be ready around this time.

The one feature that I really want is the ability to not only specify a target curve, but several of them. Not for the reason of music vs. movies. I just want accurate for both. Accurate frequency response and impulse response (as much as possible), with perhaps a slight rise in the bass region. I want this feature to have different EQs depending on which row I sit in a two row home theater. Only Anthem, from the <$10,000 processors/AVRS seems to have this feature.

Or, instead of the slight rise in the bass region one feature I do like about Audyssey is that they have "Dynamic Eq" which will boost the bass and surround speakers so that they are audible when you are listening to things at less than reference volume. If it is at say -30 dB you might need a lot of boost for bass to be audible. If it is at -20 or -15 dB then you might need less of a boost. But, the important thing is that this is somehow taken into account. I know for me I don't always listen to things at the same volume, so this Audyssey feature is really attractive.

Maybe any of the three will be fine for me personally, as long as it has the features I want. I am planning for a sealed room and plan to do all that can possiblity be done to fix impulse response with room treatments and then the EQ will do the last little bit of fixing things as much as possible. It could be possible that we can hear a big difference between the different EQs if we are relying on them to do too much. There are definitely limitations to what any of them can do.
I've heard about that Audyssey app. It sounds like a big step forward, but it's still vaporware, so it's hard to know how it will turn out. It's strange how Audyssey development stopped for so long, and they never fixed the bugs with the Pro kit.

Some of the Dirac implementations support 4 filters that can be instantly switched. I know the PC and MiniDSP versions have that. This is actually a really big deal.

Like you said, you can use that if you want different filters for different rows, or dedicated music, movie, or bass-demo filters. Since they are different filters (can independent measurements, not just target curves), you can actually make them the same target curve for different rows. Surprisingly, I actually found a single filter that I like for movies and music. It turned out that I just needed enough control to dial in what I wanted.

The main benefit of selectable filters, though, is that you can instantly A/B test different curves. Audio memory has its limits, so you can't really dial it in if it takes too long to compare curves. This a huge problem with Audyssey Pro. If someone gets a Dirac receiver without selectable filters, I'd even recommend using the PC trial to find the perfect target curve, then start with that on the Dirac receiver.

Dirac and DynamicEQ don't really play nice together, even in setups that support it. You really want a fixed target with Dirac. For versions of Dirac with selectable filters, you can create separate filters for different volume levels, if you like.
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post #28016 of 30518 Old 02-22-2017, 11:07 AM
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I've heard about that Audyssey app. It sounds like a big step forward, but it's still vaporware, so it's hard to know how it will turn out. It's strange how Audyssey development stopped for so long, and they never fixed the bugs with the Pro kit.

Some of the Dirac implementations support 4 filters that can be instantly switched. I know the PC and MiniDSP versions have that. This is actually a really big deal.

Like you said, you can use that if you want different filters for different rows, or dedicated music, movie, or bass-demo filters. Since they are different filters (can independent measurements, not just target curves), you can actually make them the same target curve for different rows. Surprisingly, I actually found a single filter that I like for movies and music. It turned out that I just needed enough control to dial in what I wanted.

The main benefit of selectable filters, though, is that you can instantly A/B test different curves. Audio memory has its limits, so you can't really dial it in if it takes too long to compare curves. This a huge problem with Audyssey Pro. If someone gets a Dirac receiver without selectable filters, I'd even recommend using the PC trial to find the perfect target curve, then start with that on the Dirac receiver.

Dirac and DynamicEQ don't really play nice together, even in setups that support it. You really want a fixed target with Dirac. For versions of Dirac with selectable filters, you can create separate filters for different volume levels, if you like.
It sounds like there not a perfect Room EQ for me. On the one hand I can get an implementation of Dirac to have several different filters instantly switchable. Could they be configured to be switchable with the push of a button on a Harmony remote? Having to get out PC to switch them is too much effort. So I guess I am asking about the MiniDSP version. But, then you lose the feature of Dynamic EQ of something comparable from Dirac. Even Dirac's implementation on say the Emotiva processors don't give you an equivalent to Dynamic Eq. This is actually a big deal too. Why spend all of this money on good Rythmik subs if you can't even hear them at lower volumes. Dynamic EQ compensates the gain (I think it actually implementing a curve) in the bass region so that we can always hear our subs and surrounds.

On the other hand Audyssey, once the app comes out, will be missing the ability to switch, at the push of a button, between several different filters. Though, I can't imagine this is at all difficult to implement on the app. If they could do this Audyssey would give me everything I want feature-wise.
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Dirac is a fundamentally better technology than XT32 as it actually works to improve Impulse Response and works to improve time coherence which is waaaaay more perceptible than what Audessey does. MQA is actually doing a similar type of correction except it's focused on correcting the time coherence of the audio files themselves as well the dac chain. I would imagine MQA through a Dirac system is one of the best possible ways to hear music right now (though I totally get why music industry people don't like MQA).

Regardless, there is a reason all these companies with their 100k speakers demo them with Dirac in the chain. I too am waiting on XMC2 or RMC1 for my Dirac fix. I'm super interested to see who does the first Unison implementation. I feel like that has the potentially to be massively gamechanging, especially for people with the crazy systems with tons of speakers and subs, since at least as I understand it, the more drivers unison can control, the better it SHOULD work.
MQA is a lossy compressed format for hi-res audio. I'd expect the audible benefits to be on the border between marginal and non-existent, since that's where uncompressed hi-res audio resides. It is not possible for a compressed format to be better than the uncompressed data. Considering modern storage and bandwidth can handle lossless, it's hard to get excited about a new lossy compression format, especially one without much support.
You are not at all understanding what MQA is. MQA is among other things time-domain correction of the dac and adc chain. It is not in any way comparable to any existing format as it does something new and different.

The process of getting a dac setup for MQA involves profiling the entire device and then custom programming a filter profile to match the baseline and correct time domain issues. This process actually happens twice as on encode they compensate for the adc chain as well.

There are a lot of meridian competitors and music industry folks who don't like MQA for financial reasons, and I get it. But it is NOT an equivlent technology. What MQA does to audio will be more audible than moving to like 24b or 192k or w/e because of the way we perceive sound in the time-domain.
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post #28018 of 30518 Old 02-22-2017, 11:35 AM
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It sounds like there not a perfect Room EQ for me. On the one hand I can get an implementation of Dirac to have several different filters instantly switchable. Could they be configured to be switchable with the push of a button on a Harmony remote? Having to get out PC to switch them is too much effort. So I guess I am asking about the MiniDSP version. But, then you lose the feature of Dynamic EQ of something comparable from Dirac. Even Dirac's implementation on say the Emotiva processors don't give you an equivalent to Dynamic Eq. This is actually a big deal too. Why spend all of this money on good Rythmik subs if you can't even hear them at lower volumes. Dynamic EQ compensates the gain (I think it actually implementing a curve) in the bass region so that we can always hear our subs and surrounds.

On the other hand Audyssey, once the app comes out, will be missing the ability to switch, at the push of a button, between several different filters. Though, I can't imagine this is at all difficult to implement on the app. If they could do this Audyssey would give me everything I want feature-wise.
There is nothing to prevent you from using Dirac & DynamicEQ for a setup that supports it (like mine.) I just got much better results out of Dirac by disabling DynamicEQ. I think Emotiva has some sort of loudness compensation (what DynamicEQ is), but I don't have an XMC-1, so I can't give you details on that.

I do believe the MiniDSP stuff can be swiched with a remote.

With the PC version, I mean the possibility of using the PC to A/B test presets to find your target curve. After that, you could use a receiver with a single preset.
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post #28019 of 30518 Old 02-22-2017, 11:51 AM
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You are not at all understanding what MQA is. MQA is among other things time-domain correction of the dac and adc chain. It is not in any way comparable to any existing format as it does something new and different.

The process of getting a dac setup for MQA involves profiling the entire device and then custom programming a filter profile to match the baseline and correct time domain issues. This process actually happens twice as on encode they compensate for the adc chain as well.

There are a lot of meridian competitors and music industry folks who don't like MQA for financial reasons, and I get it. But it is NOT an equivlent technology. What MQA does to audio will be more audible than moving to like 24b or 192k or w/e because of the way we perceive sound in the time-domain.
One of us isn't understanding it. I'm not sure which one, yet. Can you provide a link that explains what you're describing?

Everything I see online says that MQA combines a few things - all of them questionable:

1) Lossy compression for high-res audio. I think the phase/time domain stuff you are describing are just misunderstanding their claimed benefits of hi-res audio or implementation details of the compression algorithm (which will never surpass lossless compression.)

2) DRM. Hooray.

3) Licensing fee combined with quality certification, similar to the THX certification on audio equipment.

Edit: Reading what you're describing some more, it sounds like you're describing an exotic implementation of the low-pass filter. The (barely audible) benefit of hi-res is that it pushes the low-pass filter out of the audible spectrum. The implementation details become much less important. Maybe it's somehow tied in with the compression scheme.

The main issue with the DAC, aside from licensing, is that it would need to be able to decode the MQA compressed & DRM'ed bitstream.

Okay...found a video that explains it.
This is foolish marketing stuff, not stuff to waste money on.
What matters here is hi-res or not, and that barely matters.
Nowhere near the magnitude of the speakers, room, or EQ.


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post #28020 of 30518 Old 02-22-2017, 12:09 PM
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You are not at all understanding what MQA is. MQA is among other things time-domain correction of the dac and adc chain. It is not in any way comparable to any existing format as it does something new and different.

The process of getting a dac setup for MQA involves profiling the entire device and then custom programming a filter profile to match the baseline and correct time domain issues. This process actually happens twice as on encode they compensate for the adc chain as well.

There are a lot of meridian competitors and music industry folks who don't like MQA for financial reasons, and I get it. But it is NOT an equivlent technology. What MQA does to audio will be more audible than moving to like 24b or 192k or w/e because of the way we perceive sound in the time-domain.
One of us isn't understanding it. I'm not sure which one, yet. Can you provide a link that explains what you're describing?

Everything I see online says that MQA combines a few things - all of them questionable:

1) Lossy compression for high-res audio. I think the phase/time domain stuff you are describing are just misunderstanding their claimed benefits of hi-res audio or implementation details of the compression algorithm (which will never surpass lossless compression.)

2) DRM. Hooray.

3) Licensing fee combined with quality certification, similar to the THX certification on audio equipment.

Edit: Reading what you're describing some more, it sounds like you're describing an exotic implementation of the low-pass filter. The (barely audible) benefit of hi-res is that it pushes the low-pass filter out of the audible spectrum. The implementation details become much less important. Maybe it's somehow tied in with the compression scheme.

The main issue with the DAC, aside from licensing, is that it would need to be able to decode the MQA compressed & DRM'ed bitstream.
http://www.soundonsound.com/techniqu...-audio-quality
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