Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 943 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28261 of 28318 Old 03-20-2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by trp3383 View Post
Here's the graph with no smoothing.

I just started using rew, and trying to find time to play with it is hard with a 1 year old running around. I'll have some time Friday to try and get a better grasp on it and run audyssey to compare. Any pointers?





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Not bad. You're basically +/-5dB to under 6hz*!

Measuring subs only doesn't give you the whole picture though, you should measure subs+CC (or FL, or FR) to see how they interact over the crossover.

*However, you would have to do some compression sweeps to see how much of that is actually usable.
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post #28262 of 28318 Old 03-20-2017, 11:42 AM
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Not bad. You're basically +/-5dB to under 6hz*!

Measuring subs only doesn't give you the whole picture though, you should measure subs+CC (or FL, or FR) to see how they interact over the crossover.

*However, you would have to do some compression sweeps to see how much of that is actually usable.
How does one do a compression sweep? I'm going to try and nail down the crossover with the fonts and try the sub distance tweak on Friday.
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post #28263 of 28318 Old 03-20-2017, 11:49 AM
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^^ Increase your receiver volume by 5db and measure, go to the REW all spl tab then check boxes for those measurements. Each time you up your receiver volume by 5, your graph increases by 5db. STOP measuring when the last graph does not increase by 5 as you could damage your sub and it does not cover under warranty.
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post #28264 of 28318 Old 03-20-2017, 11:56 AM
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Compression sweeps:

Start relatively low. Set your master volume to "0" and set the REW sweep level to -20dBfs. <--- This is assuming you are using a calibrated USB microphone and have a sensitivity factor in your cal file. If you do NOT have both of these things, be sure to calibrate your SPL (outlined in the REW guide linked in my sig) before continuing!

Take a sweep, then turn up the sweep level by 3dB. Lather, rinse, repeat until you see the frequency response is not increasing at all frequencies equally. If you cannot see any compression, but are hearing "funny" noises from the subs, you should stop and look at the distortion graph to make sure you aren't doing any damage to your subs. THD measurements over 30% @ 20hz should be avoided.

I have attached an example of some comp sweeps I did. You can see that the two loudest sweeps have compression setting in pretty heavily. By looking at this graph, you can see that my extension at 10hz is only usable up to about 105dB before compression starts.

Oh yeah, you might want to wear earplugs for this.
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post #28265 of 28318 Old 03-20-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Compression sweeps:

Start relatively low. Set your master volume to "0" and set the REW sweep level to -20dBfs. <--- This is assuming you are using a calibrated USB microphone and have a sensitivity factor in your cal file. If you do NOT have both of these things, be sure to calibrate your SPL (outlined in the REW guide linked in my sig) before continuing!

Take a sweep, then turn up the sweep level by 3dB. Lather, rinse, repeat until you see the frequency response is not increasing at all frequencies equally. If you cannot see any compression, but are hearing "funny" noises from the subs, you should stop and look at the distortion graph to make sure you aren't doing any damage to your subs. THD measurements over 30% @ 20hz should be avoided.

I have attached an example of some comp sweeps I did. You can see that the two loudest sweeps have compression setting in pretty heavily. By looking at this graph, you can see that my extension at 10hz is only usable up to about 105dB before compression starts.

Oh yeah, you might want to wear earplugs for this.
What size sealed room do you have? What subs do you have?
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post #28266 of 28318 Old 03-20-2017, 12:45 PM
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I plan on running my avr at -15mv most times. Does that change anything on the way i set anything up?
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post #28267 of 28318 Old 03-20-2017, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by trp3383 View Post
I plan on running my avr at -15mv most times. Does that change anything on the way i set anything up?
What model AVR?
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post #28268 of 28318 Old 03-20-2017, 12:49 PM
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What model AVR?
x3300w
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post #28269 of 28318 Old 03-20-2017, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Schrodinger23 View Post
What size sealed room do you have? What subs do you have?
Room is not sealed and is around 5000 cu. ft. Dual PSA T-18s + dual S3000.


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I plan on running my avr at -15mv most times. Does that change anything on the way i set anything up?
Sure. Instead of putting your MV at "0" set it to "-15". If you can make it to 0dBfs in REW without compression (or significant distortion), you are good to go.
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post #28270 of 28318 Old 03-20-2017, 01:37 PM
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Room is not sealed and is around 5000 cu. ft. Dual PSA T-18s + dual S3000.
That is a lot of subwoofers with a lot of output capabilities you have there. I'm shooting for about the same output as you got there, of being able to cleanly hit reference volume peaks of 115dB from 20 to 80 Hz without any little to no compression setting in. If things extend lower than that, then great.

Right now I am in a finished open concept 10,000 to 12,000 cubic foot basement. My Outlaw subwoofer from my much smaller starter house gets swallowed up in this enormous space. I'm going to put up a couple of walls just to get the size of the space down. The only downside is that to avoid support poles in the basement, the room is a bit smaller than I would pick ideal, only about 12.5 ft by 18.5 ft by 7.2 ft. I wouldn't mind it a bit larger, but I didn't think I could afford the subwoofers to get the response like I wanted.
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post #28271 of 28318 Old 03-20-2017, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by trp3383 View Post
I plan on running my avr at -15mv most times. Does that change anything on the way i set anything up?
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x3300w
You may want to play with the Audyssey Dynamic EQ and its LFE Offset setting. It acts as a loudness contour boosting the bass at lower volumes.
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post #28272 of 28318 Old 03-20-2017, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Schrodinger23 View Post
That is a lot of subwoofers with a lot of output capabilities you have there. I'm shooting for about the same output as you got there, of being able to cleanly hit reference volume peaks of 115dB from 20 to 80 Hz without any little to no compression setting in. If things extend lower than that, then great.

Right now I am in a finished open concept 10,000 to 12,000 cubic foot basement. My Outlaw subwoofer from my much smaller starter house gets swallowed up in this enormous space. I'm going to put up a couple of walls just to get the size of the space down. The only downside is that to avoid support poles in the basement, the room is a bit smaller than I would pick ideal, only about 12.5 ft by 18.5 ft by 7.2 ft. I wouldn't mind it a bit larger, but I didn't think I could afford the subwoofers to get the response like I wanted.
If this will be your forever home enclose the room the size you prefer. You can run your current sub nearfield and save up for more firepower down the road. Don't build your room around your current sub.
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post #28273 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 09:05 AM
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If this will be your forever home enclose the room the size you prefer. You can run your current sub nearfield and save up for more firepower down the road. Don't build your room around your current sub.
I tried initially to run the subwoofer nearfield and the results were underwhelming. The theater area is basically in the corner of a 10,000 to 12,000 cubic foot space. In the past year or so I ended up moving the subwoofer to the corner, to get as much help as I can. But, this too is still quite lacking.

I do plan for this house to be a "forever" house, as much as anybody can say that, so I don't mind doing the construction to get a dedicated theater room. In fact, one of the big benefits I am anticipating is having the room small enough where I can pressurize it with bass. There is a huge difference between hearing the bass and hearing and feeling the bass. I also want to go with multiple subs to get good response across multiple seats. And since my Outlaw sub is now about 13 years old I am ready to upgrade to 2 or 4 Rythmik subs. At first I was just going to go down the road of getting two big output subs. But, really even the Rythmik FV15HPs might not have enough output to pressurize this massive space. Heck, even the upcoming bigger ported subs Rythmik will be offering might not be enough. I also started asking myself if pressurizing all that space is the best approach anyways.

The other benefits one gets to going with an enclosed rectangular room is predictability. One knows in advance where the best place is for 2 or 4 subs. One knows in advance where the best place for room treatments are. One can expect to get good sound without too much effort and cost, after the room is built.

I am also looking forward to not having to shut off the HVAC for the house when I want to watch a movie, since the mechanical room noise is audible in my theater area. Also, since the room is in the corner of my basement, two walls are quite easily decoupled. So building a room within a room really doesn't take that much effort. It will be nice not to have my wife telling me that I am playing the movie too loud, when I want to watch an action film after she has gone to bed. The only downside is that the house is already built. I will only be able to get about 7' 2" ceiling height. If I had any choices when the house was built, I would have given myself an extra foot or two for the height in the basement, but that opportunity is lost now.
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post #28274 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 10:24 AM
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You may want to play with the Audyssey Dynamic EQ and its LFE Offset setting. It acts as a loudness contour boosting the bass at lower volumes.
Was able to get time and run audyssey and mess with deq. Ended up bumping the sub trim +7 and turning on deq with mv at -15.

Haven't quite figured out how to get the crossover right. Right now it's at 80





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post #28275 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 10:54 AM
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^^ are those graphs subs only? What about center + subs graphs (hdmi3 output in REW)? Also measure with deq off if MV is < 0.
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post #28276 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 11:17 AM
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^^ are those graphs subs only? What about center + subs graphs (hdmi3 output in REW)? Also measure with deq off if MV is < 0.
Yea it just the subs with my trim increase and deq. I'm trying to figure out rew but there's just a lot going on with it. even though i run it at -15, should I post all graphs with mv set to 0, no deq, and -12dbfs in rew? Also run sub sweep at 10-300hz and all speakers at 15-20,000hz?

Last edited by trp3383; 03-21-2017 at 11:20 AM.
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post #28277 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 11:23 AM
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^^ MV at -15 is fine, just turn deq off and measure using output3 which is center and subs assuming center is set to small. It is ok to see on graph what deq does but for native in room FR and especially for compression graphs, you want to measure with deq off.
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post #28278 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by trp3383 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
You may want to play with the Audyssey Dynamic EQ and its LFE Offset setting. It acts as a loudness contour boosting the bass at lower volumes.
Was able to get time and run audyssey and mess with deq. Ended up bumping the sub trim +7 and turning on deq with mv at -15.

Haven't quite figured out how to get the crossover right. Right now it's at 80





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Are you using the LFE input on your L22s? In your sub only measures the extension below 20Hz is quite impressive but it seems things are rolling off well before 120Hz, which if you are measuring hdmi ch4 in REW (LFE channel) is not a good thing as LFE channel has content all the way to 120Hz.

If you are using the Line In inputs on the L22s than crossover should be set to max frequency and 12dB LPF slope. Phase should be zero degrees since the AVR will set that during Audyssey. Of course, you can simply use the LFE input and then none of these settings matter.
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post #28279 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 11:46 AM
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Are you using the LFE input on your L22s? In your sub only measures the extension below 20Hz is quite impressive but it seems things are rolling off well before 120Hz, which if you are measuring hdmi ch4 in REW (LFE channel) is not a good thing as LFE channel has content all the way to 120Hz.

If you are using the Line In inputs on the L22s than crossover should be set to max frequency and 12dB LPF slope. Phase should be zero degrees since the AVR will set that during Audyssey. Of course, you can simply use the LFE input and then none of these settings matter.
I am using the lfe inputs on my l22's. I also have the lfe setting in audyssey set to 120
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post #28280 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Are you using the LFE input on your L22s? In your sub only measures the extension below 20Hz is quite impressive but it seems things are rolling off well before 120Hz, which if you are measuring hdmi ch4 in REW (LFE channel) is not a good thing as LFE channel has content all the way to 120Hz.

If you are using the Line In inputs on the L22s than crossover should be set to max frequency and 12dB LPF slope. Phase should be zero degrees since the AVR will set that during Audyssey. Of course, you can simply use the LFE input and then none of these settings matter.
I am using the lfe inputs on my l22's. I also have the lfe setting in audyssey set to 120
Good to know, I guess that is an effect of the room then.
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post #28281 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 02:20 PM
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I am using the lfe inputs on my l22's. I also have the lfe setting in audyssey set to 120
Is one of the room dimensions about 15.5 feet?
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Is one of the room dimensions about 15.5 feet?
13.5 ft



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post #28283 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 02:29 PM
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13.5 ft



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I was guessing that you have a null, from a standing wave, at about 73 Hz. If you have a rectangular room then you can predict them pretty well. The irregular shape to the room makes it much more of a challenge to predict.

You might be able to play with placement of the subs or the phase on one to get it to go away, if it is in fact a null. However with the mains and center going maybe you don't have a null at all. The suggestion above to measure the center and mains with the sub from above is a good one.
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post #28284 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 02:30 PM
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I was guessing that you have a null, from a standing wave, at about 73 Hz. If you have a rectangular room then you can predict them pretty well. The irregular shape to the room makes it much more of a challenge to predict.

You might be able to play with placement of the subs or the phase on one to get it to go away, if it is in fact a null. However with the mains and center going maybe you don't have a null at all. The suggestion above to measure the center and mains with the sub from above is a good one.
Will do

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post #28285 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 02:35 PM
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I am using the lfe inputs on my l22's. I also have the lfe setting in audyssey set to 120
You can up the LFE to 250hz and measure to see exactly where your subs are rolling off. Do this for your compression graphs so that you can see more orders of harmonic distortion.
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post #28286 of 28318 Old 03-21-2017, 03:12 PM
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dual fv15hp. there is significant port chuffing when pushing the boxes to their limit in 1 port config mode, however basically none with all ports open. however, they definitely plumb the depths of the next lower octave in 1-port mode. for me, i prefer them all open right now and to for-go the extra low-end. i have a feeling that in a larger room sitting further away from the subs the port noise won't be as much of an issue. time will tell once i get my room built--in the vicious cycle of mudding & sanding currently -_-
Simple solution...Add another pair!
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Or, trade in for FV18s or FV25s.

President Trump must be holding the amps up in customs. Call your congressman!
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Anyone has the initial recommended setup for using Rythimk in stereo only system with no bass management?

I was only able to find the recommended setting for using with AVR

The recommended initial setting with HT:

0) Low pass switch set to EXT/12 (not 80Hz/24).
1) power voltage set to 110-120v (for US, Canada, Mexico)
2) PEQ (Parametric EQ) set to Off
3) PEQ Gain doesn't matter with PEQ set to Off
4) PEQ Bandwidth doesn't matter with PEQ set to Off
5) PEQ Frequency doesn't matter with PEQ set to Off
6) Delay adjustment set to 0 (will be adjusted from HT receiver).
7) Crossover adjustment set to max first (then gradually dial down for best integration).
8) Level at 12 o'clock to begin with. Gradually move it higher to balance sub with front speakers.
9) Extension filter switch: 14Hz
10) Damping switch: high.

Also, I am not sure how to interpret the following passage found on Rythmik website: For those who really need it for a non-HT setup, PEQ and XLR amplifiers have a 12db-24db/oct selectable low pass filter to use with or without an HT receiver. That switch is located with the other controls. The 24db/oct on them is implemented as 12db/oct adjustable via a knob plus a 12db/oct fixed at either 50hz or 80hz (two switch positions).

I assume if we want a 24dB low pass slope around 60Hz, the we will leave the switch at 80/24 and then move the cross-over knob to some where in between 80 and 50 on the dial??

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post #28289 of 28318 Old 03-22-2017, 01:50 PM
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FV18/FV25 update


We already have the driver and enclosure here in US. We are waiting for the amplifiers. It should take no more than 3 weeks from now. The schedule got pushed out quite a bit. But that is all related to lead time issue, not redesign.
Who is planning to purchase/upgrade to one of the new subs. I believe the new subs will be well worth the wait!

@rcohen ?
@serith ?
@Cain ?
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post #28290 of 28318 Old 03-22-2017, 02:31 PM
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Who is planning to purchase/upgrade to one of the new subs. I believe the new subs will be well worth the wait!

@rcohen ?
@serith ?
@Cain ?
guilty. however i'm not sure when right now. i need to put together the funds to have my room carpeted (finishing the drywall right now myself--on the 4th coat as of tonight), grab the jvc rs420, a quality screen, a receiver/processor that'll handle 7.1.4, speakers all around (still undecided on main l/r but found some deals for surrounds & atmos that should work for not much money), etc. the bass will have to wait at least for a little while i think. it makes me sad to type that
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f12g subwoofer , lv12r , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub

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