Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 945 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28321 of 28337 Unread 03-25-2017, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Get Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers with RAAL. I know a guy who had Paradigm Signature S8s and after listening the Sierra Towers with RAAL sold the S8s in a bit without any remorse. I got mines just two months ago and my only regret is no getting them sooner!!
i saw you mentioned in an earlier post that you run those. what kind of power do they require? any pro's/con's that you can throw at me is much appreciated in my search for an upgrade. i guess i'm asking about speaker recommendations on this sub because the bass that these rythmik subs produce is the tightest & deepest i've ever felt. naturally you guys might have the same minimum standards for your main listening speakers

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post #28322 of 28337 Unread 03-25-2017, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by serith View Post
i saw you mentioned in an earlier post that you run those. what kind of power do they require? any pro's/con's that you can throw at me is much appreciated in my search for an upgrade. i guess i'm asking about speaker recommendations on this sub because the bass that these rythmik subs produce is the tightest & deepest i've ever felt. naturally you guys might have the same minimum standards for your main listening speakers
The Sierra Towers with RAAL are easy to drive. I'm running the pair of Sierra Towers + Horizon Center with an Emotiva XPA-3. I have a pair of Sierra 2s as surrounds and I'm driving them with an Emotiva XPA-200.



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Media Room: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/ RAAL, Horizon w/ RAAL & Sierra 2s | Rythmik F12SE (x2) | Marantz SR7008 | Parasound Halo P5 | Emotiva XPA-3 & XPA-200 | Oppo 105D | Sony HW40ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac|
Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz NR1606 | Emotiva XPA-200 Gen 2 | Samsung UN50JU6500 |
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post #28323 of 28337 Unread 03-26-2017, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by serith View Post
installing moldings & priming the walls for paint today--can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel! i know this is a rythmik subwoofer thread, however if anyone has any recommendations for a pair of main l/r floor standing speakers i'm open to suggestions (~$2-4k). i'm thinking of upgrading my hand-me-down jbl's to a pair of aperion verus grand tower II's. i worry that they won't play as loud as i'm used to but the jbl's don't sound that good, they just turn up loud. my father has a pair of paradigm signature s8's and it leaves me wanting a lot more. the only cross shopping i'm doing is the svs ultra towers, and certain golden ear models. i want something that will crank without ear fatigue like i have now.
I got a chance to hear some Sierra towers with RAAL tweeters about a month ago.
I agree they are really special. I loved the RAAL tweeter - awesome sound.
The bass is lacking, but if you plan to use a sub with them, that should help.

Considering that you are looking for something that will crank, though, I'm not sure that Sierra towers are the best choice for you.
Some JTR 210RTs are probably ideal for what you're looking for, although it's slightly above your budget.
Read up on them, and you'll get the idea.

The coax compression driver in the JTR 3-ways is something special, too. It's amazingly clean and non-fatiguing like the RAAL, but with a different league of dynamics and output capability.

To quantify the difference here:
Sierra Tower sensitivity: 89db, max power: 300w RMS
JTR 210RT sensitivity: 95db, max power: 2000w RMS
So, quick math says that's 14db difference in output capability.

Last edited by rcohen; 03-26-2017 at 12:26 AM.
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post #28324 of 28337 Unread 03-26-2017, 04:50 AM
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I'd also take a look at the new Tekton Double Impacts. These are exceptionally dynamic, efficient and reproduce lots of low bass. I think they'd make ideal HT speakers, particularly for action/adventure, sci-fi fare. The designer, Eric Alexander (30 years a speaker designer, most notably with Aperion) wanted to create the virtues of professional speakers with an audiophile signature, and by all accounts, he has succeeded brilliantly. I plan to audition these from a local owner next week.


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post #28325 of 28337 Unread 03-26-2017, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by healthnut View Post
I'd also take a look at the new Tekton Double Impacts. These are exceptionally dynamic, efficient and reproduce lots of low bass. I think they'd make ideal HT speakers, particularly for action/adventure, sci-fi fare. The designer, Eric Alexander (30 years a speaker designer, most notably with Aperion) wanted to create the virtues of professional speakers with an audiophile signature, and by all accounts, he has succeeded brilliantly. I plan to audition these from a local owner next week.


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Wow...that's a lot of tweeters. That's one way to deal with the limited output capability of conventional tweeters, although it has downsides. This one has multiple drivers with horizontal as well as vertical spacing, which raises additional concerns beyond their past models.

There have been several shootout meet ups on avsforum comparing a lot of these speakers. That includes JTR, Ascend, and Tektons. (Not that model of Tekton, though.)

It makes excellent reading, where lots of forum members share their impressions from direct comparisons.

Edit: I just came across some Reddit commentary on the Double Impact, including some discussion of tweeters less than 1/2 wavelength apart.
https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/...eeters_batman/

Again, the shootouts are great to give you the net results of various designs in direct comparisons.

From that Reddit:
Quote:
The idea of an array of tweeters is as old as array of woofers, which you see in use on every MTM design. Problem is that each tweeter has to be within half of the shortest wavelength is produces to another tweeter, center to center. So less than an inch, which is really hard to do with the magnet behind it, without horn lenses. Otherwise you get combing effects that are noticeable when you move your head around and shift around on the couch.
There have been tests (builders doing a write up with measurements and impressions) to see if the circle pattern of tweeters can negate that interference but the answer is no, it cannot. I've seen a pair tested that looked just like this - in fact it's featured on PE as a project. The conclusion was that it was a nice try but no cigar. Using multiple tweeters is not a new idea, and there is a reason you don't see any reputable brands using such configurations, without horn lenses or some other way to keep within the boundaries of array theory.
In this case they look about 2.5 inches apart, so you can expect cancellation starting as low as 4k, or wherever the tweeter starts above that, since it's a 3 way.
Also some good discussion here on AVS:
Tekton Impact and Double Impact
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post #28326 of 28337 Unread 03-26-2017, 10:13 PM
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Odd query: are the dual driver (L22, F25) loopbacks independent, or a summed response?
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post #28327 of 28337 Unread 03-26-2017, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by scotthal View Post
Odd query: are the dual driver (L22, F25) loopbacks independent, or a summed response?
Everything I have read indicates that the servo feedback is independent with separate amplification per driver.
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post #28328 of 28337 Unread 03-27-2017, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I would start by setting subs +9dB (-1.5dB trim) and see how you like it. But yes, if don't plan on listening past -15 MV you can boost the subs +15dB safely.
If he is getting compression above 112db I would not boost the subs so they are trying to hit 115db...they will be compressing. He would need to add another L22 for clean reference playback imo.

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post #28329 of 28337 Unread 03-27-2017, 12:03 PM
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If he is getting compression above 112db I would not boost the subs so they are trying to hit 115db...they will be compressing. He would need to add another L22 for clean reference playback imo.
Good point BH. There are very few titles that the LFE is mixed hot enough to reach reference though. No? With sealed subs, the servo should soft clip peak signals without risking harm to the subs or distressed sounds from them.

To clarify, I was basically saying yes, he can set subs +15dB but I was recommending +9dB. Let me add to my original recommendation and advise to stay at or below +12dB hot to stay below the point of compression.

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post #28330 of 28337 Unread 03-28-2017, 07:51 AM
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Compression is a good indicator distortion has also increased...If your subs are calibrated flat and you boost them +15db, then at MV-15 you will be asking the subs to play 115db peaks. According to his REW graph compression is setting in by 112db. Now source material normally allows for a couple DB more headroom opposed to a sinewave sweep, but they are still going to be on the edge of their capability. I would agree +12db would be a better choice. I would not run my subs on the ragged edge...if you are approaching compression levels frequently then you need more subwoofage imo.

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post #28331 of 28337 Unread Yesterday, 08:03 AM
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@enricoclaudio @Rythmik

Hey guys is the new place similar to the old warehouse just bigger? You moved closer to me which could be a bad thing. I'd like to stop by sometime and check out the size of the enclosures for the new 18" offerings if that's okay.

It is about the same size. But the new warehouse is ... brand new. It has all the goodies from new technologies. LED lighting (no more buzzing ballast and no need to change tube in 10 years). The roof ceiling is spray foam insulated and we have a team room at the center of the warehouse to maximize the usage of space and the team room has a ductless air conditioning which is so quiet in "green mode" that it only has very faint wispering fan noise. So I am very happy with the new setup. I can live there.... Summer will be the best test. In our old warehouse, the warehouse area can reach 110 degrees when outside is 100. The uninsulated metal roof was the problem. I expect that to drop to 90F inside for the new warehouse.


As for 18" models, give us another couple of weeks.

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post #28333 of 28337 Unread Yesterday, 05:37 PM
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@Rythmik why the undefeaable high-pass filter (14Hz minimum) on the sealed subs? I understand why on ported subs, but isn't the sealed box and servo protection enough? Doesn't this limit ULF/single digit performance? Will the new amplifiers have the same fixed or a defeatable/switched filter [with the increased ULF capability of the new subs (FV18HP, FV25HP, F18HP, F28HP)]?
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post #28334 of 28337 Unread Yesterday, 07:50 PM
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@Rythmik why the undefeaable high-pass filter (14Hz minimum) on the sealed subs? I understand why on ported subs, but isn't the sealed box and servo protection enough? Doesn't this limit ULF/single digit performance? Will the new amplifiers have the same fixed or a defeatable/switched filter [with the increased ULF capability of the new subs (FV18HP, FV25HP, F18HP, F28HP)]?
The high-pass filter is to set the roll-off frequency, it is not a filter (or what we call rumble filter). Servo in sealed subwoofer can be made to extend flat to 10hz or 5hz. Such an extension will be useless in real world because the excursion limit. Therefore we trim it down with a switch that sets 14hz/20hz/28hz extension. It is very subtle. But the most important thing is phase shift at say 20hz and 10hz. We provide those plots for the expert users to assess how little our phase shift is. For instance, an ideal phase shift for a sealed sub tuned to roll-off at 20hz naturally will have a 90 degrees phase shift at 20hz. If you add a 2nd (3rd) order rumble filter at 20hz, you add another 90 (145) degrees phase shift at 20hz. So overall, ours is very much close to an ideal sealed sub with 2nd order roll-off. I will say ours is close to a 3rd order roll-off with 135 degrees phase shift at 14hz. One note is our phase plot shows the result picked up from mic. But most people dont realize microphone has phase shift too. I can actually measure the phase shift of microphone because we have a senor on the cone. For the microphone I use, it has 18 (45) degrees phase shift at 20hz (10hz). After you adjust our plot with that, our phase shift is really really low.

Another clue about excessive filtering is calculate how much additional rolloff is there in addition to sealed sub's 2nd order roll-off which means there is a 12db/oct roll-off. From 20hz to 10h is an octave. JL are very typical commercial sealed subs. There are JL subs on Databass, you can easily calculate the order of roll-off on their subs. For E112, the roll-off from 20hz to 10hz is about 24db. That is a 4th order roll-off.

In short, our arrangement for the extension is really close to purist approach. I don't think I can do better than that. But you can prove me wrong.
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post #28335 of 28337 Unread Yesterday, 11:20 PM
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The high-pass filter is to set the roll-off frequency, it is not a filter (or what we call rumble filter). Servo in sealed subwoofer can be made to extend flat to 10hz or 5hz. Such an extension will be useless in real world because the excursion limit. Therefore we trim it down with a switch that sets 14hz/20hz/28hz extension. It is very subtle. But the most important thing is phase shift at say 20hz and 10hz. We provide those plots for the expert users to assess how little our phase shift is. For instance, an ideal phase shift for a sealed sub tuned to roll-off at 20hz naturally will have a 90 degrees phase shift at 20hz. If you add a 2nd (3rd) order rumble filter at 20hz, you add another 90 (145) degrees phase shift at 20hz. So overall, ours is very much close to an ideal sealed sub with 2nd order roll-off. I will say ours is close to a 3rd order roll-off with 135 degrees phase shift at 14hz. One note is our phase plot shows the result picked up from mic. But most people dont realize microphone has phase shift too. I can actually measure the phase shift of microphone because we have a senor on the cone. For the microphone I use, it has 18 (45) degrees phase shift at 20hz (10hz). After you adjust our plot with that, our phase shift is really really low.

Another clue about excessive filtering is calculate how much additional rolloff is there in addition to sealed sub's 2nd order roll-off which means there is a 12db/oct roll-off. From 20hz to 10h is an octave. JL are very typical commercial sealed subs. There are JL subs on Databass, you can easily calculate the order of roll-off on their subs. For E112, the roll-off from 20hz to 10hz is about 24db. That is a 4th order roll-off.

In short, our arrangement for the extension is really close to purist approach. I don't think I can do better than that. But you can prove me wrong.
Thank you! I completely misunderstood the extension switch setting. I understand now. 👍
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post #28336 of 28337 Unread Today, 09:29 AM
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I will comment on the rythmik sealed subs when used for home theater the rumble filter is a must have. I get compression and measurable distortion from the servo protecting the driver from over excursion and it is noticable with it's lack of expected output at high listening levels only when driven hard. When it is off I'm flat till about 10hz -3db @ 7hz which is a beautiful thing and it does add some ambiance to the listening enviroment but it is not really useful if you listen near reference level. What it translates to when engaged in my room is that I get about 5-6db more output at MLP at 15-20hz and distortion is very low. I use 14 high and 14 Med and even though it is 20hz filter, I'm still -3db at 14hz due to room gain. The output from 7-15hz with it off is really not enough with the single 15 for me. Perhaps with multiples it could work out to more headroom and less delta, but I would expect more output with it engaged as well.

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post #28337 of 28337 Unread Today, 12:37 PM
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I will comment on the rythmik sealed subs when used for home theater the rumble filter is a must have. I get compression and measurable distortion from the servo protecting the driver from over excursion and it is noticable with it's lack of expected output at high listening levels only when driven hard. When it is off I'm flat till about 10hz -3db @ 7hz which is a beautiful thing and it does add some ambiance to the listening enviroment but it is not really useful if you listen near reference level. What it translates to when engaged in my room is that I get about 5-6db more output at MLP at 15-20hz and distortion is very low. I use 14 high and 14 Med and even though it is 20hz filter, I'm still -3db at 14hz due to room gain. The output from 7-15hz with it off is really not enough with the single 15 for me. Perhaps with multiples it could work out to more headroom and less delta, but I would expect more output with it engaged as well.
I'm curious how large your room is? This will help me better understand your comments and how they might translate to my room, where I am considering a sealed Rythmik used for home theater.
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