Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 964 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #28891 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
@gwsat , are you gained match at the subs? If not, I suggest so. Search for Gain match v.s level match here in this forum and use the method shown there by CraigJohn for your subs. He used Audyssey but it should be the same concept.
Correct me if I am wrong, but to gain match you simply move each sub to the middle of the room (you can use tape) run a test tone and adjust the gain on each sub until they give the same reading at the MLP? After this, you run Audyssey again and both subs should come out fairly even as far as output goes?

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post #28892 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 06:11 AM
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Gain matching is easier when the room is symmetric. But when the room are asymmetric, for instance, one side has wall or short wall and another side is completely open, the side without wall can easily play 3-6db lower. So it is tricky to balance. In this case we can take advantage of our flexible bass extension switch. We don't have to set both subs exactly the same bass extension. We can set the sub with less room gain at a higher extension (ie, 14hz), then it will give us more attenuation on 10hz even if its level is elevated.
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post #28893 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 06:31 AM
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^^ good point and since the extension switch has a much closer frequency (12, 14, 18hz IIRC) on the new subs, it can be used to balance the sound level due to boundary gain.
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post #28894 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 06:40 AM
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yes gwsat is setting one FV18 gain higher than the other (he did this through is AVR). These sub are set where they are and not going to be moved around

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post #28895 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but to gain match you simply move each sub to the middle of the room (you can use tape) run a test tone and adjust the gain on each sub until they give the same reading at the MLP? After this, you run Audyssey again and both subs should come out fairly even as far as output goes?
If you want to be anal about it due to boundary gain, move subs to the middle of the room. I just make sure the volume knobs on both of my subs are at the exact spots (13 clicks from min for me, I think). That should be close enough. I then run Audyssey cal, ignore the level match step by just clicking next. After calibration, I just set my trims to the average of the 2 trims then add +12 to each of my trims (yes, i run them +12 hot without dynEQ).
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post #28896 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TulsaCoker View Post
yes gwsat is setting one FV18 gain higher than the other (he did this through is AVR).
How much higher?
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post #28897 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 06:47 AM
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According to @gwsat and @TulsaCoker those FV18s sound amazing already. If is me, I would get a miniDSP 2x4 HD only for fine tuning and call it a day
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post #28898 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
If you want to be anal about it due to boundary gain, move subs to the middle of the room. I just make sure the volume knobs on both of my subs are at the exact spots (13 clicks from min for me, I think). That should be close enough. I then run Audyssey cal, ignore the level match step by just clicking next. After calibration, I just set my trims to the average of the 2 trims then add +12 to each of my trims (yes, i run them +12 hot without dynEQ).
now that's hot! What is your volume typically set to?

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post #28899 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
I had spent alot of time when I 1st got my rhytmik 15hp integrating it with my other 2 subs...for last couple years have been really happy. Recently I have disconnected my 2x velodyne subs as I am planning on putting them in other rooms/systems. So I have been tweaking my system with just the 1 rhythmik 15. I have a big room, so 1 sub in fixed spot gives me some time to adjust.

just ordered a minidsp hd

and probably order another 15hp in June.
Nice looking Home torii! Like you I use towers for surrounds. Makes a huge difference IMHO!

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post #28900 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
Marc -- Thanks for your suggestions. I did an experiment a few minutes ago and satisfied myself that the unwanted sounds I have been hearing from the opening of EoT are caused by my room, not by the FV18s. I was hearing so much rattling out of the windows, shutters, and doorways on the left side of my room I feared that it might be coming from the left hand sub. It wasn't coming from there, though. To find out for sure, I turned off the left hand sub and played the EoT opening again through the right hand sub only. This let me tell for sure that it was the room that was rattling, not the sub. Anyway, it seems clear to me at least that the scene is generating loud frequencies below 12Hz, which is my subs' tuning frequency. Also, it's a definite possibility that my fireplace and the stuff standing on the mantle above it are indeed contributing to the unwanted sounds.

I have another acid test soundtrack coming tonight, War of the Worlds. Will report how that turns out.
Hi gwsat,

I posted abut this in the JTR thread a little while ago. About Fireplaces and HT Rooms and Subs. In short Fireplaces are bad for bass resonances issues. Look at keeping the Flu shut and even better, an insert or doors that will close this off. The Fireplace and flu ca become a sort of bass tuning fork. Not in a good way. May be related to the unpleasant sound you were hearing. Think gigantic bass trap and bass pipe organ that will normally resonate at the 30Hz range. Might want to do some research on this Capt.

At the 3 min mark he talks about Fireplaces and such.


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post #28901 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 07:16 AM
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now that's hot! What is your volume typically set to?
-15. Once a while at -10
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post #28902 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
How much higher?
believe 2 db in the AVR. One is set to -1.0 the other to -3.0. The gain on the subs is/was set the same

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post #28903 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 07:57 AM
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^^ not too bad. I would set them both to -2 or 0 (2db hot) or better is to add 1 or 2 clicks to the volume knobs on both subs and rerun YPAO to get to the further negative trims so that they won't be in the positive trim running them hotter.

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post #28904 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
@gwsat , Here is my recommendation (based on importance and priority):
First, when roomEQ sets the left and right subwoofers to different gains due to very different room gains from two subs, it can make the unit with higher boost much easier to reach max output. You mention the difference is 10db. That is close to 3x in magnitude. I am not sure if that is still the case right now. If you don't think you will use up all the power headroom, then it is ok to keep results from the roomEQ. If you ever run into max output, then it is good to compromise a bit. You don't need to make yes/no choice. For instance you can do half of the boost. Instead of boosting 10db, you can do 5db boost. In other words, set the level down 5db after roomEQ by either manual override or turn down the volume setting on the back of the amp. If you do the latter, then next time you do roomEQ, you need to make sure you restore the volume setting to normal.

Second, we design the FV18/FV25 rumble filter to have 6db attenuation at 10hz. That cuts down the excursion by 50%. So it is alway good to turn that rumble filter ON if you know you will need all the headroom of FV18. It is a good compromise. If that is still not enough, we can also move the bass extension filter setting higher.

Thrid, the limiter can prevent the amplifier getting into clipping. In class-D amps, the clipping can sound like voice coil rubbing which is another annoying noise. We suggest keep limiter ON.
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
You can tell it's not the sub making the noise in that video. However in Gwsat's video it's clearly the sub making the noise. I think Brian Ding is correct...something to do with audyssey boosting 1 sub 10db, which tells me that placement is not ideal for that sub.
As a result of our tweaking over the weekend, both Limiters on my FV18s are set to ON. The Limiter was OFF on the right hand sub, which exhibited stress in the video while the opening of EoT was playing. We also changed the settings of both subs so that they were running much less "hot" than the levels at which they had been set.

As Brian and Enrico have suggested, the Rumble Filter is now ON on both subs. I have also set the port tuning frequency at 12Hz. After our tweaking, the volume knob is now in the middle on both subs. Finally, there is now only 2.5dB difference in the levels and the SPL meter built into REW tells me that they are outputting equally. Finally, I am now convinced that the opening of EoT is an outlier, which will setoff sympathetic vibrations in any multipurpose room, even if the subs' drivers are not under stress. In the past few days, I have played Hacksaw Ridge, Leon the Professional, Master and Commander, and War of the Worlds. None of their prodigious LFE stressed the FV18s. In fact listening to it was thrilling. The EoT opening, though, still makes my windows, shutters, and a door rattle unpleasantly.
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post #28905 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
According to @gwsat and @TulsaCoker those FV18s sound amazing already. If is me, I would get a miniDSP 2x4 HD only for fine tuning and call it a day
Enrico -- That's what I had in mind. Between us, Greg and I finally got both subs calmed down on Saturday and I confirmed through the SPL meter builtin to REW that their output is now equal. I have played a bunch of movies with demo class LFE over the past few days and it sounded better than great. Bottom line, it looks like EoT is going to make any multipurpose room shake like a leaf, even if the subs aren't stressed but everything else sounds wonderful.

HT setup: Sony 75XBR X940D UHD HDR TV; Kaleidescape Strato Movie Server 6 TB; Yamaha RX-A3060 AV receiver; Sonamp 2-1 2channel 100W power amp; Crestron Control System; 2 Rythmik FV18 subwoofers, 6 Hsu HB-1 Bookshelf speakers, 1 Hsu HC-1 Center speaker, 4 Focal ICW8 in-ceiling Atmos speakers; Oppo UDP-203 4K HDR BD player; Mac Mini HTPC. TiVO Bolt 1TB DVR; TiVo Premiere Elite 2 TB DVR; Roku Premiere+
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post #28906 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
Enrico -- That's what I had in mind. Between us, Greg and I finally got both subs calmed down on Saturday and I confirmed through the SPL meter builtin to REW that their output is now equal. I have played a bunch of movies with demo class LFE over the past few days and it sounded better than great. Bottom line, it looks like EoT is going to make any multipurpose room shake like a leaf, even if the subs aren't stressed but everything else sounds wonderful.
Watch at 3 min mark.

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post #28907 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
The EoT opening, though, still makes my windows, shutters, and a door rattle unpleasantly.
Well I'll be over again this weekend with my dolly and take one off your hands. Two FV18's are too much is what I have deduced
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post #28908 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Watch at 3 min mark.

https://youtu.be/6-dOSD1KoNU
gwsat's fireplace is a vent-less gas logs so at least it is not as bad as having a flue.

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post #28909 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 08:32 AM
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gwsat's fireplace is a vent-less gas logs so at least it is not as bad as having a flue.
Ahhh, yeah that is better. I missed that point about his vent-less design. However, if an open small space it will resonate. So keeping it closed, if possible will yield a better Room FR.

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post #28910 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Watch at 3 min mark.

https://youtu.be/6-dOSD1KoNU
Adam -- I have a faux fireplace, so it doesn't have a flue. The cavity where the gas logs lie is the only irregularity. Anyway, I am really enjoying the job my FV18s are doing for me right now. so am loath to undertake covering up the fireplace opening. Besides, I have a hunch that there is nothing anybody could do to get the EoT opening to sound good in my family room. Fortunately, though, everything else I have thrown at my FV18s has sounded terrific, the multipurpose nature of my room notwithstanding.

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post #28911 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 09:19 AM
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I don't think the EOT opening is representative of 99.99% actual movie content. If fact, even the majority of that movie isn't anything like the opening. It is basically like playing a 10Hz continous sine wave in REW at very high spl. Not much real world significance.

So, I wouldn't adjust the system based on it. I would use more typical content and REW/YPAO for that.
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post #28912 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi gwsat,

I posted abut this in the JTR thread a little while ago. About Fireplaces and HT Rooms and Subs. In short Fireplaces are bad for bass resonances issues. Look at keeping the Flu shut and even better, an insert or doors that will close this off. The Fireplace and flu ca become a sort of bass tuning fork. Not in a good way. May be related to the unpleasant sound you were hearing. Think gigantic bass trap and bass pipe organ that will normally resonate at the 30Hz range. Might want to do some research on this Capt.

At the 3 min mark he talks about Fireplaces and such.

https://youtu.be/6-dOSD1KoNU


I figured this out a few years ago even though I never ran a sub, just large front towers. I could tell the glass on the FP was resonating and other noises coming from that area too. I never use the FP (gas) and so purchased a custom acoustic panel that is now velocro'ed in place over the glass front... much better.
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post #28913 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 11:19 AM
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Ah, another benefit (or cost) of good subs, you get to upgrade the house...
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post #28914 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 12:54 PM
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Hey Rythmik folks. Hoping to sneak in a non-FV18 post.

I'm looking to do a significant sub upgrade by getting a pair of E15HPs to replace an inexpensive pair of 10-in Klipschs and I have a question about plate amp choices. There's a lot of talk about long runs and hum - my first cable run is 25-ft, split from there to the second sub with a 10-ft cable - no hum with this setup or the cheap 12-in sealed sub setup that preceded it. My current Yammie has RCA outs but its replacement will include XLR.

So do I go for the PEQ option given no problems with my current (and past) setups or go XLR just in case? If so, XLR2 or 3 for a pair? Advice is much appreciated!
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post #28915 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 01:14 PM
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xlr is a $50 option, so it will cost you more...totally up to you if you will use or wont.

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post #28916 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Hootowls View Post
Hey Rythmik folks. Hoping to sneak in a non-FV18 post.

I'm looking to do a significant sub upgrade by getting a pair of E15HPs to replace an inexpensive pair of 10-in Klipschs and I have a question about plate amp choices. There's a lot of talk about long runs and hum - my first cable run is 25-ft, split from there to the second sub with a 10-ft cable - no hum with this setup or the cheap 12-in sealed sub setup that preceded it. My current Yammie has RCA outs but its replacement will include XLR.

So do I go for the PEQ option given no problems with my current (and past) setups or go XLR just in case? If so, XLR2 or 3 for a pair? Advice is much appreciated!
A pair of E15HPs with H600PEQ3 amp is $2312 shipped. The same subwoofers with H600XLR3 amps would be $2392 shipped. I think you should go with the XLR3 amp upgrade.
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post #28917 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 04:45 PM
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My choice was the XLR2 amp on my last pair of F12s (still need to order a couple of replacements for my first pair) but in general XLR gives you the flexibility if you need it for long runs or not. Much easier than having to deal with a ground loop later.
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #28918 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 06:38 PM
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Thanks for the plate amp recommendations, guys. My gut was telling me to keep all options open and order the XLR option, which is what I'll do.
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post #28919 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
As a result of our tweaking over the weekend, both Limiters on my FV18s are set to ON. The Limiter was OFF on the right hand sub, which exhibited stress in the video while the opening of EoT was playing. We also changed the settings of both subs so that they were running much less "hot" than the levels at which they had been set.

As Brian and Enrico have suggested, the Rumble Filter is now ON on both subs. I have also set the port tuning frequency at 12Hz. After our tweaking, the volume knob is now in the middle on both subs. Finally, there is now only 2.5dB difference in the levels and the SPL meter built into REW tells me that they are outputting equally. Finally, I am now convinced that the opening of EoT is an outlier, which will setoff sympathetic vibrations in any multipurpose room, even if the subs' drivers are not under stress. In the past few days, I have played Hacksaw Ridge, Leon the Professional, Master and Commander, and War of the Worlds. None of their prodigious LFE stressed the FV18s. In fact listening to it was thrilling. The EoT opening, though, still makes my windows, shutters, and a door rattle unpleasantly.
Remember me saying that would happen in a non dedicated theater room. Those ultra low frequencies just seem to expose all of those things in a house prone to rattling. When I play any of those scenes or bass music with sine wave sweeps down into the 10hz range, my entire house lights up and starts buzzing and vibrating. It's actually annoying...can't wait till I can get a dedicated theater room someday.
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post #28920 of 30024 Old 05-02-2017, 08:30 PM
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Balanced connections offer greater noise immunity as well, since the shield and signal return (ground) are independent, and you can always use adapters to convert to single-ended. To convert single-ended to balanced you'll need a transformer (may be pricey and harder to find to 10 Hz or so) or an active converter (e.g. DI box). and then have to do it again at the other end if you have a sub with RCAs. Better to have the highest-performance circuit to begin with IMO.

For most consumer applications balanced (truly differential) connections are overkill. For long runs and subs that end up on different power circuits, the ability to break a ground loop can be invaluable. Wait, not invaluable: per Enrico, $2392 - $2312 = $80. That's some value!

IME/IMO - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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