Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 986 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@Timothy1180 you are quite opinionated! While I do not agree (we all have our own preferences and biases) I find your posts entertaining. I am surprised you think so poorly of Anthem. I consider them a tier above these consumer brands.

I own both Yamaha and D+M. Here are my preferences.

1 Denon + Marantz
2 Yamaha
3 Pioneer
3.5 Onkyo
5 Sony

D+M have been the leaders since Atmos was released. The rest in the list above are all followers.

Puff, Puff, give!
I agree with that list, I have had 3 Sonys before my Yamaha and they were not very reliable nor did they sound as good. And I do think Yamaha is next best to D+M. Don't know enough about modern Pioneers though.

Current Setup REW measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Sony SS-CS5 Surrounds, Cambridge S20 Rear Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1
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post #29552 of 29566 Unread Today, 07:51 AM
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Denon and marantz are duller less exciting and way low on power. Kinda laughable spending 2000-2500$ on a 30lb receiver.

Denon are fine for some setups just never a great reason to buy one. Kinda like buying a svs sub. Why would you if there's better options??? Svs aren't horrible just not even close to the best.

I feel same way about denon and marantz
I don't want a 70lb AVR, nor do I need to listen at high spl... I actually enjoy -35MV to -30MV with BD movies. Sub is hotter though. Plus my SVS primes would benefit from a warmer sounding AVR than my Yamaha.

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Originally Posted by Gary Bechtold View Post
I have the Denon AVR-X3300W. It will get the DV update as all the 2016 models will. I have it paired with Monitor Audio Gold GX100 speakers front and rear with a Gold GXC150 enter Channel Speaker and a Rythmik F12SE Subwoofer. Now this is for my computer setup and the combo is great. The Denon blows away a previous Onkyo in terms of sound quality. The current Onkyo's have been cheapened out versus the model I had. I would not buy Onkyo or Integra. At least with revealing speakers they sound dull and harsh compared to the Denon. Now I had an Integra DHC-80.3 preamp that I traded in for a Marantz AV8802A preamplifier with a Sunfire TGA-7401 7 channel amplifier and Front/Rear Monitor Audio Gold GX100 Towers with a Gold GXC350 center and a Velodyne F-1800R II Subwoofer that will hopefully get replaced this year by a future Rythmik F18 subwoofer. The Marantz is in a different league from the Integra. I will not go back to Onkyo/Integra again. Since being purchased by Gibson guitars the quality has gone down, the features and sound quality cheapened out. Other than Denon & Marantz I would consider Yamaha.
Good to know, my SVS primes are revealing, albeit not like Klipsch. I like the sound of my Yamaha with REQ off, but it could be mellower on the top end to balance out my speakers tendencies.

Current Setup REW measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Sony SS-CS5 Surrounds, Cambridge S20 Rear Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1
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post #29553 of 29566 Unread Today, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
As a subwoofer company, we want to maintain our focus on subwoofers only. The main reason behind this is that we already have three excellent partners and speakers manufactures like Ascend Acoustics, Salk Sound and GR Research. Subwoofer design, done in the right way, takes a lot of time. Speaker design is even more complicated and takes huge amount of time and resources.
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Rythmik partners with Ascend Acoustics and Salk Sound which can meet any speaker needs.
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Originally Posted by Schrodinger23 View Post
Not only that, just think about the fact that Brian and Enrico both use Ascend speakers for their own personal speakers. I spend some time over on the Ascend forums, as well, and from some of those conversations Brian has had over there it seems like Ascend speakers have performance and design goals that align well with Ascend's performance and design goals. So, even if Rythmik were to design speakers themselves, they might not be all that different (in sound) than what Ascend already has.

In fact, Dave over at Ascend was thinking of venturing into designing subwoofers quite some time ago after he had a good number of Ascend speakers in his lineup. Once he discovered what Brian was doing at Rythmik he stopped and decided to kind up partner up with him because he knew that the subwoofers he had in mind wouldn't be all that different than what Rythmik already had designed. They both seem to think that others speakers work well together as a speaker/subwoofer system. This is what pushed me over the edge in wanting to get a Rythmik subwoofer. I love my Ascend Sierra 2 speakers and Dave has repeatedly said that if you have the RAAL ribbon tweeters in your Ascend speakers to be sure to pair it with a Rythmik subwoofer so that the transient response in the subwoofer can keep up with them. He says that about all of his Ascend speakers, but especially with the speakers that have the RAAL ribbon tweeters. He has said that he also has heard most of the competition and was even partnered up with Hsu before Rythmik came along, but still thinks that Rythmik is worth the extra money. I think he was thinking or Rythmik sealed designs, when he was making that comment, which I am planning to get. Because ported designs like the L12R, FV15HP and FV18, for example seem to have output capabilities equal to or exceeding their competition and yet have servo technology, which the competition doesn't have. They seem like an especially great value for what you are getting.
Anything recommendation from Ascend Acoustics / Salk Sound that is as dynamic and high sensitivity as a JTR 212 (or the smaller 228)?
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Yes they are. PM sent


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mind sending it to me too... live in central NJ

Current Setup REW measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Sony SS-CS5 Surrounds, Cambridge S20 Rear Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1
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mind sending it to me too... live in central NJ


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thanks

Current Setup REW measures

UN46EH6030 Calibration/Settings

Samsung UN46EH6030; Yamaha HTR-3066, SVS Prime Bookshelf Mains and Prime Center, Sony SS-CS5 Surrounds, Cambridge S20 Rear Surrounds, Rythmik LV12R; PS4 Slim, Xbox One, Xfinity X1
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post #29557 of 29566 Unread Today, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy1180 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
@Timothy1180 you are quite opinionated! While I do not agree (we all have our own preferences and biases) I find your posts entertaining. I am surprised you think so poorly of Anthem. I consider them a tier above these consumer brands.

I own both Yamaha and D+M. Here are my preferences.

1 Denon + Marantz
2 Yamaha
3 Pioneer
3.5 Onkyo
5 Sony

D+M have been the leaders since Atmos was released. The rest in the list above are all followers.

Puff, Puff, give!
I'm totally chill. In my pool drinking a corona. Totally good. I wasn't upset or worked up at all. I owned car dealership and was a gsm a bunch. Just makes me laugh how people like car companies like Honda. Toyota. Lexus. Nissan. Acura.

I understand what your theory was by country. Ford Fiesta. Lol cheap little car.

I sold Supras. They were slow bad handling cars. Rx7 now that way better. Lol.

I have two race cars. Ones a 2002 camaro. 1800hp drag car. Really not a camaro anymore. Lol

Other is a 2004 rx8 track car. Just a measly triple rotor 14k redline 600hp 2400lb car. It does ok. Lol

Daily driver is a Shelby gt350 or Dodge Charger scat. Wife gets the navigator. Kids have focus and edge. Ford makes great cars!

If I got aggressive I apologize. Just not a denon/marantz guy. Like I said their not horrible just not my style. I like a more detailed clinical sound. Which I need to keep up with my soon to be 6 fv15hp. Denon doesn't have the highs to keep up.
See, I actually want a warmer/fuller/more rounded/laid back sound. Why? because my SVS primes already have a more detailed clinical sound and I want to balance it out for a more neutral to somewhat warm sound. Not double it up with another Yamaha.

BTW, those cars sound pretty serious... it agrees well with the spl you are getting from your subs/speakers.

I have much milder tastes with both audio and my hondas/mazda/subaru.

But I do watch car shows like top gear and motor trend stuff and like the forza racing games. So, I can appreciate the more extreme stuff from that perspective.
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I personally believe the simplest approach that works is best. For example, I would rather have a 5.1 to 7.2 setup that works very well than have a ton of subs, tactile transducers, mid bass modules, etc. that add a lot of complexity to optimize and are not necessarily much better than 1 or 2 subs that are really good and set up very well.

And with speakers, 5 to 7 really good ones would be preferable to 11 okay ones, especially the upfiring atmos modules.

I know a lot here at AVS go crazy with the numbers of subs and dB's and tactile response but it is my personal opinion that you can get plenty of output and tactile response from a ordinary setup with 1-2 subs vs. lining the walls with as much woofage as possible.

Less is more, especially if it means optimizing things is much simpler and easier.

(Plus, even if you have a massive room, I really doubt more than 2 FV25HP's would be necessary.)

BTW, this post is not directed at anyone in particular, just sharing my opinion on ht setups and bass.



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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I get what you're saying but I think getting a new AVR (Denon or Marantz) would make setup much easier and then you can still refine with the MiniDSP if needed. Plus, it would really help your speakers since the MiniDSP isn't touching them and MCACC isn't close to XT32, especially below Schroeder frequency.

I do agree that your room/setup might produce some limitations you can't reasonably fix, but I do think getting gain structure right, as well as not overdoing sub PEQ and/or house curves will help considerably. Also, don't run subs too hot and try to avoid putting sub all the way in corner/near wall (allow 1-2ft of breathing room to clean up the bass).

Also, remember that if you do a full range measure of CC+sub right after running MCACC, you'll find the bass is already hotter than the midrange (1kHz region or so). So, you might be adding 6-10dB after MCACC but it may already be 6dB hot or whatever so 6+6-10=12-16dB hot. Running it too hot can make it sound bad/unbalanced and will push your subs harder, likely making worse port noises.
That's a good point - I am running the subs +6db after MCACC - mainly to get back to 0 channel level for the sake of the Shakers. I will adjust the Rythmik volume knobs a few clicks back each. Since I have only 1 subwoofer channel level to play with and need it for 2 purposes, I can't exactly just MCACC it to -6 anymore since I need it to technically come out to 0. Softening it up a bit on the volume knobs will probably get me there. This brings me to a thought that, in the "Dialing in Rythmiks" guide, I wonder what the basis of setting the Rythmik's volume knobs such that AVR auto-EQs them to -6db was? In reality, now that I'm starting to understand gain structure, all this is doing is cutting the (much needed) voltage to the subs. My understanding is that you want the source (AVR in this case) to send the strongest possible voltage to downstream devices, and handle their gains on those devices in such a way that you don't clip your amplifiers or speakers. What I still don't understand about Gain Structure, then, is why one wouldn't just boost AVR subwoofer pre-outs to max, and simply lower volume/attenuation knobs on the amps?
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I personally believe the simplest approach that works is best. For example, I would rather have a 5.1 to 7.2 setup that works very well than have a ton of subs, tactile transducers, mid bass modules, etc. that add a lot of complexity to optimize and are not necessarily much better than 1 or 2 subs that are really good and set up very well.

And with speakers, 5 to 7 really good ones would be preferable to 11 okay ones, especially the upfiring atmos modules.

I know a lot here at AVS go crazy with the numbers of subs and dB's and tactile response but it is my personal opinion that you can get plenty of output and tactile response from a ordinary setup with 1-2 subs vs. lining the walls with as much woofage as possible.

Less is more, especially if it means optimizing things is much simpler and easier.

(Plus, even if you have a massive room, I really doubt more than 2 FV25HP's would be necessary.)

BTW, this post is not directed at anyone in particular, just sharing my opinion on ht setups and bass.



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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I get what you're saying but I think getting a new AVR (Denon or Marantz) would make setup much easier and then you can still refine with the MiniDSP if needed. Plus, it would really help your speakers since the MiniDSP isn't touching them and MCACC isn't close to XT32, especially below Schroeder frequency.

I do agree that your room/setup might produce some limitations you can't reasonably fix, but I do think getting gain structure right, as well as not overdoing sub PEQ and/or house curves will help considerably. Also, don't run subs too hot and try to avoid putting sub all the way in corner/near wall (allow 1-2ft of breathing room to clean up the bass).

Also, remember that if you do a full range measure of CC+sub right after running MCACC, you'll find the bass is already hotter than the midrange (1kHz region or so). So, you might be adding 6-10dB after MCACC but it may already be 6dB hot or whatever so 6+6-10=12-16dB hot. Running it too hot can make it sound bad/unbalanced and will push your subs harder, likely making worse port noises.
That's a good point - I am running the subs +6db after MCACC - mainly to get back to 0 channel level for the sake of the Shakers. I will adjust the Rythmik volume knobs a few clicks back each. Since I have only 1 subwoofer channel level to play with and need it for 2 purposes, I can't exactly just MCACC it to -6 anymore since I need it to technically come out to 0. Softening it up a bit on the volume knobs will probably get me there. This brings me to a thought that, in the "Dialing in Rythmiks" guide, I wonder what the basis of setting the Rythmik's volume knobs such that AVR auto-EQs them to -6db was? In reality, now that I'm starting to understand gain structure, all this is doing is cutting the (much needed) voltage to the subs. My understanding is that you want the source (AVR in this case) to send the strongest possible voltage to downstream devices, and handle their gains on those devices in such a way that you don't clip your amplifiers or speakers. What I still don't understand about Gain Structure, then, is why one wouldn't just boost AVR subwoofer pre-outs to max, and simply lower volume/attenuation knobs on the amps?
A few points:

The sw trim -6dB or lower advice is so when you run things hotter you don't exceed 0dB sw trim.

Some AVR's output much more voltage from sub pre-outs at 0MV with 0dB sw trim. Like Denon and Marantz vs. Yamaha. So, it depends on your specific case and a voltmeter will give you the info you need to be sure.

The best way to see how hot you are really running things is to look at CC+sub full range and compare bass to midrange with enough smoothing applied to interpret the result easier.
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post #29560 of 29566 Unread Today, 09:07 AM
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Also, you don't want to run sw trim much higher than 0dB because it can clip the pre-out, which will distort the sub signal before it even reaches the MiniDSP and sub amp. Especially true if you ever listen at reference or higher.
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post #29561 of 29566 Unread Today, 09:09 AM
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^It's not merely the voltage that the AVR puts out that matters... it's the max voltage it can produce before clipping sets in.
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
Also, you don't want to run sw trim much higher than 0dB because it can clip the pre-out, which will distort the sub signal before it even reaches the MiniDSP and sub amp. Especially true if you ever listen at reference or higher.
I ran into this before with my amp gains too low. had to turn up gains so my avr didnt clip at 0mv

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Velodyne HGS 12, VA 1512, Rythmik FV15HP
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Anything recommendation from Ascend Acoustics / Salk Sound that is as dynamic and high sensitivity as a JTR 212 (or the smaller 228)?
I don't think that Ascend or Salk has anything close to those in terms of efficiency (sensitivity). I would say you should have no problem finding offerings from Ascend or Salk that are dynamic if you have a reasonably sized room. My perception is that JTR, Powersound audio, etc. speakers are great for the application where the main listening position is more than 15 or 20 feet away but you still want to listen at reference volume or higher and/or the room size is massive enough where you need lots of output capabilities from the 80 to 500 Hz region. For most practical purposes this room size, were you need these highly efficient speakers, would be along the lines of a small local cineplex. These compression tweeters and horn loaded tweeters are needed for cineplexes and sometimes even then are not enough enough. This is why the films mastered for the theaters tend to all have the "X-curve" applied to them which rolls off the highs, so that the tweeters aren't distorting trying to hit reference volume 2/3 the way in the theater. Its funny, there was a member on the Ascend forum within the past year that took his Ascend CMT 340s ($500 per pair) to the Gymnasium of his church to watch a movie. He said that he didn't notice any strain or compression and even commented that he was surprised how good the stereo imaging was. Those don't have nearly the output capabilities of the JTR speakers, yet they performed well (outputwise) in a gymnasium. So the main question you have to ask yourself is how big is your room and how far do you sit away from speakers?

My Sierra 2s are in a open concept (nearly 10,000 cubic foot) finished basement, but I only sit about 8 to 10 feet away from them. They are great in this room. I'm planning to put up a couple of walls so that I have a dedicated theater room with about 1700 cubic feet enclosed. The Sierra 2s are perfect for this sized room. If my planned dedicated room was a little bit larger where the primary seating position was about 12 to 15 feet away from the speakers, then I would have opted for the towers. But, from my calculations I will be able to hit 105 dB continuously with the Sierra 2s where I listen at, even though reference volume only requires up to 105 dB peaks in speaker channels. In the subwoofer channel reference volume can require as much as 115 dB peaks. So if I want to cleanly hit reference volume in that room I would need a couple of FV15HPs or F25s. I'm probably aiming for being able to hit reference volume cleanly, even though I would rarely listen that loud. I just want to make sure if I have some people over that want to crank things up I can do so and not damage things. But, stopping there is probably more than enough for me. I don't want to have permanent hearing damage playing around with regularly exceeding reference volume.
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I don't want a 70lb AVR, nor do I need to listen at high spl... I actually enjoy -35MV to -30MV with BD movies. Sub is hotter though. Plus my SVS primes would benefit from a warmer sounding AVR than my Yamaha.
Weight doesn't mean quality or output, anyway. My 275 wpc 3 channel Emotiva "only" weighs about 40 lbs, and it will easily blow away any of those AVRs. I know, I have it hooked up to the preamp outs of one.
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New emotiva gen 3 is a example of a company building lower quality products to hold a better bottom line.

Shipping and shipping damages were the reason why they went to a lower quality amp. Than they raised the price telling people it's better. Takes some courage to do that.

Emotiva gen 2 are superior in every way except they are heavy.
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Originally Posted by Schrodinger23 View Post
I don't think that Ascend or Salk has anything close to those in terms of efficiency (sensitivity). I would say you should have no problem finding offerings from Ascend or Salk that are dynamic if you have a reasonably sized room. My perception is that JTR, Powersound audio, etc. speakers are great for the application where the main listening position is more than 15 or 20 feet away but you still want to listen at reference volume or higher and/or the room size is massive enough where you need lots of output capabilities from the 80 to 500 Hz region. For most practical purposes this room size, were you need these highly efficient speakers, would be along the lines of a small local cineplex. These compression tweeters and horn loaded tweeters are needed for cineplexes and sometimes even then are not enough enough. This is why the films mastered for the theaters tend to all have the "X-curve" applied to them which rolls off the highs, so that the tweeters aren't distorting trying to hit reference volume 2/3 the way in the theater. Its funny, there was a member on the Ascend forum within the past year that took his Ascend CMT 340s ($500 per pair) to the Gymnasium of his church to watch a movie. He said that he didn't notice any strain or compression and even commented that he was surprised how good the stereo imaging was. Those don't have nearly the output capabilities of the JTR speakers, yet they performed well (outputwise) in a gymnasium. So the main question you have to ask yourself is how big is your room and how far do you sit away from speakers?



My Sierra 2s are in a open concept (nearly 10,000 cubic foot) finished basement, but I only sit about 8 to 10 feet away from them. They are great in this room. I'm planning to put up a couple of walls so that I have a dedicated theater room with about 1700 cubic feet enclosed. The Sierra 2s are perfect for this sized room. If my planned dedicated room was a little bit larger where the primary seating position was about 12 to 15 feet away from the speakers, then I would have opted for the towers. But, from my calculations I will be able to hit 105 dB continuously with the Sierra 2s where I listen at, even though reference volume only requires up to 105 dB peaks in speaker channels. In the subwoofer channel reference volume can require as much as 115 dB peaks. So if I want to cleanly hit reference volume in that room I would need a couple of FV15HPs or F25s. I'm probably aiming for being able to hit reference volume cleanly, even though I would rarely listen that loud. I just want to make sure if I have some people over that want to crank things up I can do so and not damage things. But, stopping there is probably more than enough for me. I don't want to have permanent hearing damage playing around with regularly exceeding reference volume.


Don't disagree with anything stated here. But just a point of reference I have PSA MTM 210s in a 2100 cuft dedicated media room with the MLP only about 6 feet away. The quality of the speakers is such that even at low volumes the clarity is astounding and if feel like listening loud then no issue there either. It's the clarity and purity of the sound that they high efficiency speakers bring that to me is their beauty. Throw in some nice subs and you are in audio bliss


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f12g subwoofer , integra dtc 9.8 , lv12r , Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer , servo sub



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